Free Lunch/helping the poor

[choirfarm]

Sorry. Didn't mean to make anyone mad. Posted too much. Just trying to think this through.

Edited December 15, 2011 by choirfarm

[ZooRho]

yes, and I have no answers but a weird sight early this week

 

we were coming home from church and went to get gas at walmart, there were 2 ladies outsid a vehicle with a Cardboard sign that read, Christian women need gas and something else.

 

My family just rolled our eyes. THE vehicle was a BRAND NEW TAGGED SUV vehicle. And it looked almost brand new.

[Down_the_Rabbit_Hole]

There is a man who stands on the corner with a sign asking for help. He has a cell phone and smokes. :glare:

There is another man who stands at another corner, he has been there since January. He has a sign that read homeless with kids, please help. I have thought about this man often and wonder if giving him money will I really be helping him?

 

Good question you asked, but I have no answer.

[choirfarm]

nm

Edited December 15, 2011 by choirfarm

[Mrs Mungo]

So... if 60 percent of children in my district are in the free lunch program, many drop outs by high school ( most grades start with 300 or so but only have 225 graduate or so), etc. How do you help the community?

 

This is one of those examples of corporate welfare. The government is subsidizing the wages of the working poor. Meanwhile, a handful of Waltons have more wealth than the entire bottom 30% and the government is going broke. How do you help? You campaign for a living wage.

[justamouse]

I keep reading your post, and it's like I'm a cat being pet backwards.

 

You are not allowing those people their dignity. You're wanting to help-but you're too afraid to get ripped off.

 

 

That's turning the other cheek. It's subversive. They ask for your coat, and you offer them your cloak, too. Not judge why they have a phone and a sign.

 

Here's how the owner of Panera and Jon Bonjovi worked through the same mindframe.

 

When you put a face on poverty, when you see more and more people who are losing jobs and homes and are hungry, you have a different perspective. You realize that for us to move forward as a nation we must reduce the number of people living in poverty and repair the systems that are causing more to slip from the middle class into conditions they could not have imagined five years ago. It is a moral issue our nation is obliged to address. Why don’t we?

 

 

There are many reasons, but one of them is a growing negative attitude towards poor people, e.g., “they are lazy,” “they should work harder.” David Brooks explored in his New York Times column last week, “The Limits of Empathy:”

 

 

 

Link

 

From The Limits of Empathy:

 

Empathy orients you toward moral action, but it doesn’t seem to help much when that action comes at a personal cost. You may feel a pang for the homeless guy on the other side of the street, but the odds are that you are not going to cross the street to give him a dollar.

Edited December 15, 2011 by justamouse

[mom31257]

I think you can find ways to help in your community, but big blanket donations probably aren't going to help in a way you know much about. Perhaps you could find local families through a church, such as a family that's just lost a job or a loved one. Keep you ears/eyes open for specific situations. I think I really prefer helping one on one.

 

 

This is one of those examples of corporate welfare. The government is subsidizing the wages of the working poor. Meanwhile, a handful of Waltons have more wealth than the entire bottom 30% and the government is going broke. How do you help? You campaign for a living wage.

 

I do think we should have a living wage, but there's got to be more government restraint in handouts, too. My dh teaches in a public high school with many poor students. We have one of the highest section 8 housing percentages in our state. He overheard students yesterday talking about their "crazy checks". They were talking about how you can act crazy and get a check. Some were saying, "oh yeah, I have a cousin that does that". It took everything in him to not step in and say that was his tax dollars they were talking about.

 

The system is set up to give more help to single families which just rewards having babies out of wedlock. Sometimes I wonder if the government system was put in place like it is to actually keep the poor in their poverty so that they can be controlled and manipulated.

[Bang!Zoom!]

This is going to be a very long thread.

[Sahamamama]

. Never mind

Edited December 15, 2011 by Sahamamama

[Tarreymere]

My church sponsors an afterschool program. They are located in our 'downtown' area where a lot of the single parent and low income families live. The idea is to offer a place where the kids can come after school and have healthy snack and juice and get help with their homework. We also have some volunteers who teach classes on things the kids may be interested in, like crafts or whatever. I think they are going to do a youth choir with some of the older kids, but not a church type choir. Some of the volunteers are students at a local private college and there is some bonding between these college students and the kids.

Later after homework, the kids are offered hot soup and bread for dinner. The parents are invited to come also, if they are able. This program serves kids who have parents who work second shift or who have parents who are often not home afterschool, and mentors parents who show up with their kids. I think it does help without enabling.

This same program sponsors a community garden in the summer. I haven't been involved in that, but basically some land was donated along with a passenger van, and regular trips were scheduled at certain times daily back and forth from the center of town to the land so people could come out and work on the garden even if they didn't have a vehicle. The produce was shared.

[SailorMom]

I see no lack of empathy in the OP's post. She's just a realist. I do agree that hurricane relief needs to last longer than two weeks - but I think she was referring to the two years or more of relief that some of the Katrina victims were receiving. Two months is a pretty realistic average for about 90% of hurricane victims (I live in Florida, BTW).

We can "feel good" all we want about what we do for others, but feelings don't make the world a better place.

It's a PC blasphemy, I know, but I get it. I want what I do to actually work whether others think it's PC or not.

I grew up in a financially unstable family, with two alcoholic parents, and with most of my dad's relatives on welfare. I've done a lot of volunteering. I still see the problem for what it is, and still don't think that empathy and feelings are going to help the problem.

I did a lot of research into charities to decide how to help outside of my own circle of friends and family, and decided to donate to Heifer International every year. They do work in the US and all over the world, and one of their basic tenets is the saying about "teaching a person to fish".

 

It may feel good to hand out money, but there is absolute proof that it doesn't actually help in the long run. This isn't denying someone dignity - in my opinion, assuming that they can't help themselves, or are not smart enough to, is denying them dignity.

 

I love that our society has safety nets, and I absolutely think it is our responsibility to provide them, but the system is way too big now, and there is too much abuse. MANY of the people on some sort of assistance truly need the help, and I have absolutely no problem with that, but I think our tax funds are being mismanaged, and less help is going to those who truly do need it because of that mismanagement.

As for a living wage, Mrs Mungo - we agree (and disagree) on a lot, and here I'm going to have to disagree. Not that the concept doesn't make sense, but it does seem to just drive inflation. I have to admit I haven't done a lot of research on this, though.

[Twigs]

I've had some (not very clear) thoughts on these issues, maybe they will give you some ideas.

 

They need to learn that money does not grow on trees. When they are given something for free (free lunch, welfare, etc), it is because someone else worked for money and that money was taken away from them (sometimes voluntarily donated, often not) to give to others. They need to learn there is not an endless supply of "free" handouts.

 

They need to learn the difference between needs and wants (bicycle or older car versus fancy new car).

[choirfarm]

[nm

Edited December 15, 2011 by choirfarm

[ZooRho]

ETA. You mentioned that something such as hurricane relief should only last a week or so. I think this is WAY off. Hurricanes destroy people's lives, and so many need help for a long time before they're able to go it alone.

I think she was using that as an example, there are times when a hurricane hits that there is needed relief, temp food, water shelter, but for many life will return to normal in short order. We have been in a few hurricanes. Without power for 10 days, but once power was restored we had no other damage, So we just needed a bit of relief-actually we got very little "relief" 2 bags of ice.

 

yes there are longer term damages that may need more.

 

But relief help is short term is what she was saying.

[choirfarm]

I keep reading your post, and it's like I'm a cat being pet backwards.

 

You are not allowing those people their dignity. You're wanting to help-but you're too afraid to get ripped off.

 

 

That's turning the other cheek. It's subversive. They ask for your coat, and you offer them your cloak, too. Not judge why they have a phone and a sign.

 

Here's how the owner of Panera and Jon Bonjovi worked through the same mindframe.

 

Link

 

From The Limits of Empathy:

 

I've given money to tons of panhandlers, Subway gift cards as well ( in the Walmart they were begging at.) I don't care about getting ripped off, but if they don't have dignity and have to rely on handouts all the time, how am I restoring their dignity?? I don't know if this is making any sense, but what I want is to REALLY help them not put a band-aid on it.

 

I like the Soul bread link you provided. Great idea. I have no idea if I have the time to start something like that. Homeschooling 3 and taking care of a 99yo grandmother take up a lot of time.

Edited December 15, 2011 by choirfarm

[choirfarm]

It makes me want to puke every time I hear the words "enabling the poor". You want to help without actually giving money to someone who may have a cell phone or car? Find a volunteer agency. They'll be glad to train you to be a mentor, to help in a literacy program, to deliver meals on wheels, to transport the elderly poor to medical appointments. The choices are endless. Be prepared, though, to start seeing the situation in a quite different way than you're used to.

I know this from experience.

 

ETA. You mentioned that something such as hurricane relief should only last a week or so. I think this is WAY off. Hurricanes destroy people's lives, and so many need help for a long time before they're able to go it alone.

 

 

 

The RELIEF part of the hurricane help should only last a little while- the part where you help them for free. But if a church comes in to help rebuild a house, then the owners of the house should be helping not sitting there watching??? Of course, they need help past the 2 weeks that is the point. But it should cost THEM something..not in money but in time or effort or something. They need to be participants in the recovery not just spectators and that I think is a big mistake we have been making.

 

So yes, I will tutor when I'm not helping my own with Precalc, Geometry and 4th grade math just to name 3 of the subjects...

 

Keep the ideas coming. Thanks for the discussion.

Edited December 15, 2011 by choirfarm

[mirth]

A specific way to help your community is to reach out to those hs dropouts and encourage them to go back and finish school. There are at two reports I read recently indicating these souls are just sort of written off. Nobody cares. Maybe if they thought someone cared, they would. HS principals are glad to get rid of them and have no desire to get them back to lower aggregate test scores. Finishing hs is a good idea! And this idea needs to be drilled in if it's not already obvious.

[suzziesnowflake]

First, walk a mile in someone's shoes before posting judgment on someone.

Second, blaming innocent kids for the sins of their parents is wrong.

Third, give people good jobs with a living wage and you will see a huge change in society.

Fourth, teach people how to advocate for themseleves (many Americans don't know who their representatives are...ect).

I was a social worker at one time and yes some people played the system but others were horrified that life had gotten so tough that they had to come to our agency for help but were SO thankful that we could help. (Oh, we couldn't always help, you see we could only help those who were in a rough patch, but if you hit completly rock bottom we couldn't help. I hated telling people that I was sorry that your benefits had run out but you need to look for alternative housing for your family because you couldn't get a job in our county (and surrounding counties) that has one of the highest unemployment rate in our state:crying:) Maybe you can move in to the tent city in the next town (not kidding) or sleep on Aunties couch. Many of these clients were people in their 30's with little kids and believe it or not many had some sort of college or training. Funny that we got our funding in Oct and it was all gone by Dec.)

If you do get involved be prepared because you are not going to believe what you are seeing.

[choirfarm]

nm

Edited December 15, 2011 by choirfarm

[QueenCat]

My church sponsors an afterschool program. They are located in our 'downtown' area where a lot of the single parent and low income families live. The idea is to offer a place where the kids can come after school and have healthy snack and juice and get help with their homework. We also have some volunteers who teach classes on things the kids may be interested in, like crafts or whatever. I think they are going to do a youth choir with some of the older kids, but not a church type choir. Some of the volunteers are students at a local private college and there is some bonding between these college students and the kids.

Later after homework, the kids are offered hot soup and bread for dinner. The parents are invited to come also, if they are able. This program serves kids who have parents who work second shift or who have parents who are often not home afterschool, and mentors parents who show up with their kids. I think it does help without enabling.

This same program sponsors a community garden in the summer. I haven't been involved in that, but basically some land was donated along with a passenger van, and regular trips were scheduled at certain times daily back and forth from the center of town to the land so people could come out and work on the garden even if they didn't have a vehicle. The produce was shared.

 

What I like about all of the above is that they seem to be about giving people a "hand up" rather than a "hand out".

[Mrs Mungo]

Can you explain. I'm so clueless. What is corporate welfare? What exactly is a living wage? Businesses MUST pay a certain amount? How is that different from socialism.

 

Oh, brother. Socialism is like a boogeyman these days. Socialism is a form of government through which the government controls labor, production and all distribution of goods. The government controls what is produced. Production for use is a very big part of it. Society produces what the people need, nothing frivolous. There is no hierarchy in business; all manufacturing runs through cooperative production. The worth of goods is measured by the labor that it takes to produce it. Those goods are then distributed through markets, allocating them to workers based upon need and merit. That is socialism in its pure form.

 

Corporate welfare refers to the many different ways that governments (large and small) assist big businesses.

 

Living wage refers to the wage a worker needs to earn in order to work a 40 hour per week workweek and provide for basic needs.

[SailorMom]

First, walk a mile in someone's shoes before posting judgment on someone.

Second, blaming innocent kids for the sins of their parents is wrong.

Third, give people good jobs with a living wage and you will see a huge change in society.

Fourth, teach people how to advocate for themseleves (many Americans don't know who their representatives are...ect).

I was a social worker at one time and yes some people played the system but others were horrified that life had gotten so tough that they had to come to our agency for help but were SO thankful that we could help. (Oh, we couldn't always help, you see we could only help those who were in a rough patch, but if you hit completly rock bottom we couldn't help. I hated telling people that I was sorry that your benefits had run out but you need to look for alternative housing for your family because you couldn't get a job in our county (and surrounding counties) that has one of the highest unemployment rate in our state:crying:) Maybe you can move in to the tent city in the next town (not kidding) or sleep on Aunties couch. Many of these clients were people in their 30's with little kids and believe it or not many had some sort of college or training. Funny that we got our funding in Oct and it was all gone by Dec.)

If you do get involved be prepared because you are not going to believe what you are seeing.

 

Well - knowing what you know and seeing what you've seen, wouldn't you say it would be great to reform the system so that those people who are REALLY in need get what they need??? Wouldn't it be great to NOT run out of money by December? Reform is not a bad thing, and if we as a society can't look at someone and say, "sorry, but you are not who we need to help right now," or, "sorry, but your benefits are running out,", then how do we ever make sure we have enough to go to the people who really need it? Those relatives of mine on Welfare??? None of them needed it. They made jokes all the time about "why would I work if I get this every month?" Obviously that isn't the case for a LOT of people needing assistance, but it was for them... and that argues for reform.

I agree 100% that the system we have is broken, but what is odd is that I see comments like this, complaining about a broken system, but when people like me say it needs reformed, I'm told I don't know what I'm talking about and need to have more empathy....

I don't get it.

[Harriet Vane]

One thought on the cell phones:

 

For a single parent, this can be a non-negotiable. A working parent just does not have the time to supervise as much as needed, and children of single parents often have to operate more independently. Think of it as an electronic leash that helps the parent keep tabs on their child(ren).

 

And a thought on a "poor" child buying expensive items:

 

It is possible that the child has money saved from Christmas and birthday presents and/or the generosity of people who love them. Give them the benefit of the doubt.

 

I lived for fourteen years in a "bad" neighborhood in Chicago. The majority of the poor that I came in contact with daily were actually hardworking people who would never earn a decent salary. Yes, I also interacted daily with losers and drug addicts. There are definitely those whom we should not enable. Generally, though, I think it best to give generously in whatever way presents itself, and don't worry so much about "being taken advantage of." That's a sin that is on the head of the user, not on you. Free yourself from the need to assess (and therefore judge) and you will be far less prone to hurting people whose need is genuine.

 

As for specific ideas--I think the most effective help comes in the context of relationship. Tutoring and big brother/big sister programs or ESL or helping immigrants settle in or other such put you in contact with genuine needs. The best help is always reciprocal too--in a relationship, the receiver of the help can and often does find ways to return the favor. It's not something that you should expect or keep track of, but it's a component that makes the process more enriching for both.

 

I would say to look around you for ways to help more personally. If you do not actually have contact with the needy, what do you need to change about your life to facilitate that?

 

A word of caution though--DO NOT ever treat people or think of people as a project. It's degrading to BOTH of you, and hurts those you are trying to help. It's something to proactively keep in mind.

[suzziesnowflake]

I've given money to tons of panhandlers, Subway gift cards as well ( in the Walmart they were begging at.) I don't care about getting ripped off, but if they don't have dignity and have to rely on handouts all the time, how am I restoring their dignity?? I don't know if this is making any sense, but what I want is to REALLY help them not put a band-aid on it.

 

All you can do is what you can do. Volunteer. The system is designed for putting "wet band-aids" on every social problem we have.I was a social worker and be for warned that you will drive yourself crazy if you think you can change the world, I know from my own experience. The best thing to do is pick a cause YOU believe in and find a nonprofit and Volunteer there.If everyone did this it really would be a better world. Almost like a hive of bees:lol: getting a job done.

My husband's aunt told my kids a story about when she worked in Detroit and she was walking to Mass one day. A panhandler was begging so she gave him a $10 bill b/c that was all she had. The man took one look at it and gave it back saying it was too much. She said "You never know where Jesus will be that is why I gave it to him". He was always in the same spot but never begged for money from her again. Just a story but I hope you see the point.

[SKL]

It is a good question. I've been involved at many levels. What I've decided to do is focus on helping those who really can't help themselves. Children, the mentally ill, literacy programs that are proving to make a difference. I suggest getting involved in a hands-on way as well as giving money (if you can afford it).

 

And when you see someone who is apparently taking more than he really needs from the "system," tell yourself that you're not doing this for that person, but for God (or whatever you need to do to separate your charitable intent from what can amount to a kick in the face).

 

If you have the means, hire someone to do some paid work. That really is the best way to help, in my opinion. People who can work but decide not to apparently haven't exhausted all of their other resources. I prefer to focus on those who have.

[higginszoo]

One of the schools that I went to was 100% military families (served only a housing development for Navy and Coast Guard personnel). As such, 95% of us qualified for free or reduced lunch. Back then, it was always the dads on active duty, and most of the moms worked. Yes, there were people who made stupid decisions about the money that they did have. One of the best things that happened is when organizations like 4-H and Junior Achievement that taught self-reliance and money management skills came in and offered after school programs. They were optional, but they allowed some moms to be able to work some much needed extra hours at their jobs without worrying about their kids going home to an empty house that day. It was a big deal when Boys and Girls Clubs started bringing in after school tutors. These are organizations that have had some degree of success in breaking the cycle of bad choices that contributes to poverty. My parents would comment (and still comment) on how much smarter I am about money than they are after I did JA in third and fourth grades. It empowered me to make better choices and be much further along financially than they were at my age, even on one income (and my parents were probably better than those around us at managing things).

[Julie in Austin]

For the past 3 years, there have been about 4 job seekers for every job opening. Last April, McDonald's did a "National Hiring Day." They hired 60K people--out of one million applicants!

 

I am sure there are lazy people out there. But right now, they aren't the main issue. The main issue is people who want to work, but can't find work.

 

If and when the unemployment rate falls to 3%, then we should have a conversation about what to do about lazy people who just want a handout and don't want to work. Until and unless that happens, we shouldn't be assuming people who can't provide for themselves are lazy. We should just help them.

[suzziesnowflake]

Well - knowing what you know and seeing what you've seen, wouldn't you say it would be great to reform the system so that those people who are REALLY in need get what they need??? Wouldn't it be great to NOT run out of money by December? Reform is not a bad thing, and if we as a society can't look at someone and say, "sorry, but you are not who we need to help right now," or, "sorry, but your benefits are running out,", then how do we ever make sure we have enough to go to the people who really need it? Those relatives of mine on Welfare??? None of them needed it. They made jokes all the time about "why would I work if I get this every month?" Obviously that isn't the case for a LOT of people needing assistance, but it was for them... and that argues for reform.

I agree 100% that the system we have is broken, but what is odd is that I see comments like this, complaining about a broken system, but when people like me say it needs reformed, I'm told I don't know what I'm talking about and need to have more empathy....

I don't get it.

 

Sure, Never said reform wasn't a good thing, just speaking from my own experiences. I get the empathy thing too. Do I think your empathic? Sure! Your asking the right questions and willing to do something. Not many people are. You have to remember who is designed these programs, rich people who really don't have a clue. I am not trying to be snarky here. Really! What do they know about what the average guy has to go through and what he has lived. Rather Democrate, Republican, Independent. That is why the programs are wet banages, because they just don't know how to get the job done. I don't think anyone does.

 

Here where I live, good jobs would do it and the agency I worked for would have had more money. As a matter a fact I would say that agency had almost the same funding (this was before I left 3 years ago) but the demand was so great because we were directly tied to the Auto industry and when the jobs making "whgits" left this left many on hard times, many people went back to school and got training, only this many training in fields that were flooded with employees. This left many thinking "ok" I went back to school and still can't get a job. Now what.

[Ellie]

There is another man who stands at another corner, he has been there since January. He has a sign that read homeless with kids, please help. I have thought about this man often and wonder if giving him money will I really be helping him?

Wouldn't your job be to be charitable, and let the Lord take care of the rest?

[MBM]

My suggestion is to try to interact one-on-one with people as much as you can. They aren't all trying to take advantage of others. Many truly have difficult lives. If nothing else, they have fallen into a rut and need advice and a lot of patience to change. Small efforts can make a big difference in a person's life.

As for the *system being broke,* the system is purposely being manipulated so that certain individuals can run their agenda through and profit from it. That is what is happening. There are actually some brilliant, altruistic people who care greatly about potential outcomes and how they will affect the population, but it is an uphill battle. Those individuals are threatened simply because they are fighting for the vulnerable. The general public is unaware of this.

[MSNative]

Oh, brother. Socialism is like a boogeyman these days. Socialism is a form of government through which the government controls labor, production and all distribution of goods. The government controls what is produced. Production for use is a very big part of it. Society produces what the people need, nothing frivolous. There is no hierarchy in business; all manufacturing runs through cooperative production. The worth of goods is measured by the labor that it takes to produce it. Those goods are then distributed through markets, allocating them to workers based upon need and merit. That is socialism in its pure form.

 

Corporate welfare refers to the many different ways that governments (large and small) assist big businesses.

 

Living wage refers to the wage a worker needs to earn in order to work a 40 hour per week workweek and provide for basic needs.

 

Totally agree that we need to get rid of corporate welfare. Crony capitalism and government funding "winners" and "preferred industries" is wasteful and wrong.

 

Question about the living wage, though. Here is a basic economic analysis: A living wage would be higher than the current wage. That would increase costs to the business. The business would then increase the price of its product or service to cover increased costs. This inflation would then cut into any gains made by having a living wage.

 

I read a lot about people promoting living wages, but I don't see how we get past that basic analysis. The most I've heard is that some of the bigwigs will have to take pay cuts. I'm not sure that works. First, most businesses don't have big wigs making huge salaries. Some certainly do, but a majority of businesses don't. Secondly, much research has shown that increases in minimum wage lead to increases in unemployment. Wouldn't an increase to a living wage also increase unemployment?

 

What is the proposal to get around those economic issues? Truly a question, not snarky. I'm thinking its somehow related to getting rid of corporate welfare, since you mentioned it, but I'm missing the connection. I'd really like to know, though.

 

As far as OP's question - get involved locally and in person, rather than just writing a check. I volunteer at our local food kitchen and local shelter. I prefer this 'cause I can see how the operation is run and make sure that I'm helping out at places that don't waste my time or money. Plus, I actually get to interact with the people I want to help. So much more meaningful for me and hopefully for them.

Edited December 15, 2011 by MSNative

[Desert Rat]

I do not deal directly with people. I do all the bookkeeping, data entry, filing, etc.

It's even more insightful than seeing the people; I see their paperwork. About 25% of the clients I data enter have a paid position. They are under-employed, part-time, working for minimum wage, can't make ends meet.

25% are stereotypical clients- large families, welfare, food stamps, etc.

Right now the other 50% are the unemployed. Las Vegas has one of the worst unemployment rates right now, about 15%. We were dependent on construction and tourism. People are poorer so they aren't traveling/spending as much. And everyone knows what happened to the home building industry.

My own dh was in construction and laid off for 16 months before he found an unrelated job.

What can we do to help, not "enable"? Well, really, right now we are just putting out fires. Education has a lot to do with it. Breaking cycles early on. But, realistically, you need the help of the parents.

The welfare system is a form of government mandated dependence. Once on welfare, it's difficult to transition off. This is why so many just stay on. There are no benefits for people who are trying to find a job and get a new job but still need a little help until they are established.

Minimum wage cannot support a family. It's unrealistic to think that $300 a week (min. wage $8.50 x 40 hours) can support even a single person or couple. That's another problem that would need to be fixed.

At our food pantry, we serve 3 meals for 3 days for each family member, up to 3 times a year. I would say only 25% of our clients come back the full 3 times.

We also have a Helping Hand Up program where we will pay a utility bill or a week's rent to keep someone from being homeless. Our goal is to keep them off the street.

We also will buy bus tickets for anyone having supportive family members who are willing to take them in.

My dad started this food pantry. He has had to retire for health reasons, but he always said that it was our job to help not judge. We try to stick to that.

[AimeeM]

... and businesses would cut jobs; forcing some employees to work more (or take on the jobs of several) for the same wage, while others lose their job.

 

 

Totally agree that we need to get rid of corporate welfare. Crony capitalism and government funding "winners" and "preferred industries" is wasteful and wrong.

 

Question about the living wage, though. Here is a basic economic analysis: A living wage would be higher than the current wage. That would increase costs to the business. The business would then increase the price of its product or service to cover increased costs. This inflation would then cut into any gains made by having a living wage.

 

I read a lot about people promoting living wages, but I don't see how we get past that basic analysis. The most I've heard is that some of the bigwigs will have to take pay cuts. I'm not sure that works. First, most businesses don't have big wigs making huge salaries. Some certainly do, but a majority of businesses don't. Secondly, much research has shown that increases in minimum wage lead to increases in unemployment.

 

What is the proposal to get around those economic issues? Truly a question, not snarky. I'm thinking its somehow related to getting rid of corporate welfare, since you mentioned it, but I'm missing the connection. I'd really like to know, though.

[AimeeM]

Agreed. I give the money. It isn't my job to worry about the rest of it. At least I know they have it for the necessities if that is their priority.

Wouldn't your job be to be charitable, and let the Lord take care of the rest?

[Julie in Austin]

"The welfare system is a form of government mandated dependence. Once on welfare, it's difficult to transition off. This is why so many just stay on."

 

I'm wondering what you mean by this--since 1996 there has been a lifetime limit of 5 years (shorter in some states) for cash assistance.

[AimeeM]

There is no limit on section 8 housing, food stamps, child care assistance, free lunches, medicaid etc.

"The welfare system is a form of government mandated dependence. Once on welfare, it's difficult to transition off. This is why so many just stay on."

 

I'm wondering what you mean by this--since 1996 there has been a lifetime limit of 5 years (shorter in some states) for cash assistance.

[Element]

nm.

Edited December 15, 2011 by Element

[curlylocks]

Its sad and depressing that right now, when unemployment is over 10% in many places, all some of you want to talk about is the generational poverty which is inescapable for some people rather than OPEN YOUR EYES and realise that the middle class is being hit hard by the current economic problems and these people, never in a position to be in need before, thru NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN, are now in that position.

 

But by all means, let's focus on the welfare queen stereotype and pretend Jesus didn't say love they neighbor, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, give drink to the thirsty, visit the sick, minister to those in prison and etc WITHOUT QUALIFYING IT with the phrase, you know, if you like them and feel like they deserve it.

 

What in the world? :confused: Jesus also taught about personal responsibility... ;)

 

I hope you realize that the economic problems of this country are SO much bigger than the middle class...that is just the tip of the iceberg.

[Friederike in Persia]

What in the world? :confused: Jesus also taught about personal responsibility... ;)

 

Yes, but wouldn't you say that the personal responsibility is for yourself to apply to your life and teach your children, whereas the helping and caring is how you should act towards the others?

[AimeeM]

Lol - my parents were/are foster parents. My mother runs a low income housing development. I am certainly "out there" with those who need it. Further, I never said that these programs shouldn't be in place - did I? I agree that these programs benefit innocents.

She said welfare has a lifetime limit - I was countering with some welfare programs that have no limits.

That would be because those programs benefit children, innocent victims. Perhaps you think these lucrative programs are enough to discourage people from moving forward in their lives? I suggest you are likely NOT out there in contact with the people who need these services if you think thats the case.

 

Reagan's welfare queen stereotype will never die because people love it too much.

[Mrs Mungo]

Question about the living wage, though. Here is a basic economic analysis: A living wage would be higher than the current wage. That would increase costs to the business. The business would then increase the price of its product or service to cover increased costs. This inflation would then cut into any gains made by having a living wage.

 

First, most businesses don't have big wigs making huge salaries. Some certainly do, but a majority of businesses don't. Secondly, much research has shown that increases in minimum wage lead to increases in unemployment. Wouldn't an increase to a living wage also increase unemployment?

 

A majority of businesses don't because most businesses in the US are small businesses. However, a handful of large corporations employ *large* numbers of people. Many economic reforms do not apply to small businesses. I think it has been too easy for big businesses to say, "oh, times are hard, we have to lay people off" while they rake in record profits. I think this is problem that doesn't have a singular answer.

[SailorMom]

The welfare system is a form of government mandated dependence. Once on welfare, it's difficult to transition off. This is why so many just stay on. There are no benefits for people who are trying to find a job and get a new job but still need a little help until they are established.

 

I have seen this in action and it is very frustrating for all involved. One of DH's sisters is Bi-Polar and has needed a lot of help - and thank God it's out there for her. But as she has gotten healthier, and when she started being able to work part time - they wanted to take ALL of her benefits away. Well - part time work is not going to cover what she needed, and she felt as if they were punishing her for getting better and trying to work. Her job didn't provide any benefits, either.... It's crazy.

[justasque]

--Buy your Christmas gifts on Etsy, from people who are making and selling things themselves.

--Hire local people to mow your lawn, clean your house, clean your gutters.

--Join a local CSA for your veggies. Having paying members helps them to offer work shares.

--Buy your produce from your local farmers' market. See what else is offered there.

--Seek out local, family-run restaurants rather than big chains. The kinds of places where the owner's kids are at their regular table, doing their homework, while the restaurant is open.

--Give away some of what you're doing already. If you're teaching your child Algebra, offer to have another homeschooled kid or two to join the class for a nominal fee.

--Take a regular volunteer (or nominally paid) job in which you'll be interacting with at-risk folks. In the normal course of work friendships, you'll be in a position to encourage them, hook them up with resources, and give wise council. You'll learn from them too. (As a PP said, do not think of these folks as a "project" - the relationships have to be genuine.)

--Give your unwanted clothes and textbooks away to fellow homeschoolers. Give your unwanted sports/activity stuff away to younger kids on the team or in your troop or whatever. Give your old furniture and appliances away on Freecycle or Craigslist. Give your old musical instruments to the local high school's music program. Create a give-away table at your church, at your homeschool co-op, at your scout troop's quarterly family events.

--Give your money to small, local organizations that are meeting a specific need. Literacy programs, libraries in low-income areas, scout troops in low income areas, etc.

[Element]

--Buy your Christmas gifts on Etsy, from people who are making and selling things themselves.

--Hire local people to mow your lawn, clean your house, clean your gutters.

--Join a local CSA for your veggies. Having paying members helps them to offer work shares.

--Buy your produce from your local farmers' market. See what else is offered there.

--Seek out local, family-run restaurants rather than big chains. The kinds of places where the owner's kids are at their regular table, doing their homework, while the restaurant is open.

--Give away some of what you're doing already. If you're teaching your child Algebra, offer to have another homeschooled kid or two to join the class for a nominal fee.

--Take a regular volunteer (or nominally paid) job in which you'll be interacting with at-risk folks. In the normal course of work friendships, you'll be in a position to encourage them, hook them up with resources, and give wise council. You'll learn from them too. (As a PP said, do not think of these folks as a "project" - the relationships have to be genuine.)

--Give your unwanted clothes and textbooks away to fellow homeschoolers. Give your unwanted sports/activity stuff away to younger kids on the team or in your troop or whatever. Give your old furniture and appliances away on Freecycle or Craigslist. Give your old musical instruments to the local high school's music program. Create a give-away table at your church, at your homeschool co-op, at your scout troop's quarterly family events.

--Give your money to small, local organizations that are meeting a specific need. Literacy programs, libraries in low-income areas, scout troops in low income areas, etc.

 

:iagree:

 

Win.

[choirfarm]

nm

Edited December 15, 2011 by choirfarm

[Carol in Cal.]

As a Christian, I observe that in the New Testament Jesus is often described as 'having compassion'. I conclude that having compassion is a key part of being Christ-like. So I believe that it is spiritually dangerous to tamp down our compassion out of fear of being ripped off. Being ripped off is bad, and I try to avoid it. But if I let that fear stop my compassion, that would be far more damaging.

[choirfarm]

[nm

Edited December 15, 2011 by choirfarm

[Carol in Cal.]

As I said before, we volunteer at the pantry and the homeless shelter. It just isn't enough. I don't have that much time either. My great grandmother in in a memory care facility and I spend time there with her and the other people. They are they forgotten. They enjoy when my daughter and I go. They love to sing. I use my music there. I just took my kids choir there. It just isn't enough. It isn't fixed.

 

It is at this point, with great compassion, that Jesus says, "The poor you have always with you."

 

He would never interpret that as anything but wrong. It is part of the nature of a fallen world, but a result of sinfulness (not in the poor, in general). It MUST be fought, and your having compassion and fighting it is exactly right. But it also is not going to be fixed completely in this life. However, that is no reason not to fix it where you can, and to organize others to do the same.

[Harriet Vane]

I already do this. We go to a food pantry and a local homeless shelter. It just doesn't seem to be enought and it doesn't seem to fix the problem..Does that make sense? I am a fixer. I like everyone happy in my world. That is my job...to make everyone happy. I like to fix things that are broken.

 

Don't beat yourself up for not being able to fix more of the world. Your care for you grandmother and your children counts, and God will surely bless you for your service to them. You mentioned other volunteering in other posts--you seem to be someone who is putting forth an effort. There are so many who do not. It's a healthy thing to always examine our hearts--it's also a healthy thing to acknowledge what you ARE doing and to live in peace with that.

[curlylocks]

I don't like getting ripped off either and I don't think hand-outs are helpful. That said, we show compassion by giving away curriculum and clothes. The biggie that we do is to keep two of our houses way under market rent for two hs families. In the case of one of them, I know it makes the difference to the family that mom does not have to work outside the home. I'll give a hand-up to those folks before I'll give a hand-out to the guy on the street corner.

 

I "get" what you're saying...I do. :)

 

That being said, in my church there are 3 HS families that are currently "ripping" off the system...they are lying in order to get benefits.

 

- one family is lying about their living arrangements (they told DHS that the Dad has moved out)

- one is collecting benefits because DH used to be unemployed; then he became self-employed and company started making money and he is taking home a regular pay check...they never notified DHS and are still collecting, but were able to buy a NEW car and a swimming pool

- one has applied for and been approved for every program out there, but lied about some "hidden assets". She is able to drive a NEW car, have her nails done twice a month and buy tons of junk at the store, has taken a trip and has the church buying her oil, groceries and clothing for the kids but according to her it isn't enough and she still needs "help" that she can't get. :confused:

 

It just isn't right...