Free Lunch/helping the poor

[AimeeM]

Do you not agree, though, that requiring a living wage would raise unemployment rates?

I think employees will be the first cut if companies have to play with their budget. Nice or not - nobody can pretend it would be a good idea to let the government dictate private businesses' budgets.

A majority of businesses don't because most businesses in the US are small businesses. However, a handful of large corporations employ *large* numbers of people. Many economic reforms do not apply to small businesses. I think it has been too easy for big businesses to say, "oh, times are hard, we have to lay people off" while they rake in record profits. I think this is problem that doesn't have a singular answer.

[mommaduck]

I'm thinking out loud here, so bear with me. I have been wondering how to help the poor in our community. The book When Helping Hurts has crystallized my thoughts. In the book, they talk about 3 stages of helping:

 

relief- which is supposed to be VERY short term for example a hurricane hits and people need water, food, medical care etc But that should only last a week or two.

 

Rehabilitation- where you work with the people themselves to work on their own recovery. You accentuate the positives of what THEY can do. So rather than organize a church team to rebuild the hurricane houses while the people sit watching, you take a survey and ask who is good a carpentry? painting? What are YOU good at and how can you contribute?

 

Then Development which continues this process.

 

So... if 60 percent of children in my district are in the free lunch program, many drop outs by high school ( most grades start with 300 or so but only have 225 graduate or so), etc. How do you help the community? We have a food bank that is giving out more food than every before. But people get used to the freebies...

 

Another thing that has me thinking is that I personally know one family that is probably part of the 60 percent. She is a single mom with three kids. Her oldest is in junior high with a smart phone. They have no car. They can't afford one. She works at the daycare. Several years ago when the youth did some ministry in a big city, they spent one afternoon shopping and this child bought an expensive item. My boys refused to spend any money because the prices were outrageous. So financial common sense is lacking.

 

I'm not sure how you address this??? As a society we cannot afford to pay for free lunch for everyone. It isn't good for self-esteem either. How do we get a work ethic back, financial common sense, etc

 

But then how do you determine who has REAL need and who doesn't. Some medical conditions/expenses have devestated some couples.

 

But how do your break cycles? The first year I taught was 1990-91. I taught 8th grade. 5 of my girls were pregnant. If I remember correctly 3 out of the 5 were daughters of moms that also got pregnant at 14. 2 were very low IQ. My classes could not understand why I wasn't pregnant when I had been married for a few months. I told them that my husband was finishing school and we couldn't afford it. Plus, first you get fat, then you are in pain for hours and what do you get? Something that cries and poops and is a lot of work to take care of... You can't even play with them. They are helpless. ( Now this was before I had kids and yes, I know babies are cute. I've now had three, but I must say I prefer high school to babies! But they needed a wake up call. They just saw how cute babies were and they all wanted one!)

 

So how does a rich white woman(honestly most of us in the US are rich if you see how many live on less than a dollar a day.) help the poor without enabling them?

 

Am I making any sense????

 

I want to address a couple of assumptions here. I knew a kid that was dirt poor. He dressed well, went to private school, and had a smart phone. Part of this was due to the generosity of relatives. The private school was due to scholarships and he busted his butt at McD's to pay the difference. I also know teens (no, they aren't the greatest with money) that are poor, but when they have a chance, they will buy something expensive, because it's likely that that is the one time they can do so. Wise, no, but the way it is.

 

To others: I know there are people that hold signs and rip you off. There are also real people being truthful. One year, we had a local college grad that couldn't get a job. He stood out with a sign stating such. A nearby car sales manager came out and offered him a job. HE TOOK IT! We ran across a man that was on the street with a sign saying he needed money for food. We bought him a value meal at a local Hardee's. We could see him down the road...he not only thanked us, he put his sign down and went to sit by a pole and ate his meal. We've passed out socks, underwear, those handwarmer things, can openers w/canned food that can be eaten cold, and comforters made out of old denim jeans to the homeless. My husband has given people rides to shelters. We have one old man here that doesn't seem right in the head and everytime he says he "just got out of jail and do you have a dollar?". I know he didn't "just get out of jail", but I give him change when I can. We are "working poor" ourselves, but the working poor tend to share what they have. My son has volunteered at the food pantry. I donate any clothes we can't use, donate books we no longer use or were passed on to us and we don't need to libraries (private and public), etc. I don't worry about who is being honest and who isn't. That's on them. It's sad if they are dishonest (my husband knew of a panhandler in St Louis that was actually very wealthy...he made his living panhandling). But there are those that are honestly in need. I love my neighbours and have helped with getting one person's electric turned back on and later they helped me with something I needed.

 

We recently knew of a man that walked several miles from the shelter to a new job everyday. He was on time, he walked there and back, but the one thing that cost him his job was that he had difficulty delivering quickly because everyone else had a GPS and he couldn't afford one. I only wish I had had enough to buy that man one and it irks me a bit to think that no one else there thought to do it to help him keep the job.

 

I don't have a lot of advice. If there was a way to help that mother go to school or get a higher paying job, that would be a good thing.

[kiana]

I have seen this in action and it is very frustrating for all involved. One of DH's sisters is Bi-Polar and has needed a lot of help - and thank God it's out there for her. But as she has gotten healthier, and when she started being able to work part time - they wanted to take ALL of her benefits away. Well - part time work is not going to cover what she needed, and she felt as if they were punishing her for getting better and trying to work. Her job didn't provide any benefits, either.... It's crazy.

 

Yes, this.

 

It shouldn't be an on-off switch. If it were something like they reduce your benefits by 1 dollar for every 2 that you earn until you're down to 0, you'd see a lot more people (imo) who are capable of part-time work doing that.

 

I've got a good friend who's seriously disabled due to physical conditions. He would be able to work a PART-TIME job with flexible hours due to the unpredictability of his disease. If he gets ANY job at all, he loses his benefits -- then when his disease flares up again he'll be homeless. How does this benefit anyone?

[Mrs Mungo]

Do you not agree, though, that requiring a living wage would raise unemployment rates?

 

No, I don't agree. I think large corporations have already cut their labor force to the bone. Ultimately, there are hours to fill, there is work to be done. It might actually encourage companies to move back toward manufacturing as there is a bigger profit margin in manufacturing versus service companies, if you cannot rely on an extremely low-paid employee base.

 

I think employees will be the first cut if companies have to play with their budget. Nice or not - nobody can pretend it would be a good idea to let the government dictate private businesses' budgets.

 

There are things that the government can regulate that affect budgets without dictating the budget. Examples: charging corporate taxes, taxing the luxury perks of corporate executives instead of allowing corporations to use them as tax shelters, etc.

[Scarlett]

I don't like getting ripped off either and I don't think hand-outs are helpful. That said, we show compassion by giving away curriculum and clothes. The biggie that we do is to keep two of our houses way under market rent for two hs families. In the case of one of them, I know it makes the difference to the family that mom does not have to work outside the home. I'll give a hand-up to those folks before I'll give a hand-out to the guy on the street corner.

 

:iagree:

 

This.

 

I know enough people personally who can use help that when I have any extra that is who it goes to. That includes family and friends.

[justasque]

It can be frustrating to feel like you're giving as much as you can, and still not solving the problem. But none of us can take on the whole task.

 

Are you looking to seriously re-vamp your life to make helping the poor a priority? Or are you looking to donate/volunteer in ways that maximize the impact of your gift of time/money? Or are you just frustrated that you can't see any results for your work?

 

Remember too that we have seasons of life, and you have, hopefully, many more years in which to live and give. Right now you're raising kids; sooner than you think your nest will be empty and you will have more time to give. Think long-term.

 

It sounds like you've found several ways to give that work well with your current life. You are growing fresh produce for the hungry, and taking it to the food pantry. It takes a lot of people doing a little of this to meet the pantry's needs, but you may be helping to feed an entire family all summer. It may not feel like this, if you never meet the specific people who eat your produce. Would it feel like you were doing more if you gave your food to specific people in your life who you know would benefit?

 

Going out to eat once or twice a week means that 50-100 times a year you can choose where your dinner money goes. Will it go to a big corporate chain, or to a local place that is giving back to the community, buying from local farmers, making nutritious food rather than offering a menu that encourages people to make unhealthy choices. Try different small, local restaurants, and pick a few where you feel your money can make the most difference. The idea is to take the money that you're spending anyway, and spend it thoughtfully.

 

If there are few local homeschoolers, then think about the after school community. If your kids are in activities, help with leadership. If your time is maxed out, make extra donations to things like scouts, etc., and make sure you support those in leadership emotionally and financially. Maybe you can't personally mentor a needy boy scout, but if you can be supportive of those who can, that's just as worthwhile.

 

The work you do at the memory care facility is priceless. Having music in one's day is part of a rich life, and something that can be savored and appreciated even if one's memory or cognitive skills are lacking.

 

If you lead a life where helping others is woven into your daily routine, it's often done in little ways where you can't always see the impact on one particular person. Just know that all those little bits and pieces do add up.

[SKL]

I do believe the minimum wage can be a living wage if people would live like they were minimum-wage earners. I have lived on less than minimum wage for most of my life. It has involved things like sharing with others, which some consider beneath them. The whole "why should I" proving that entitlements often lead to entitled people.

 

As for entitlements being set up to keep people poor - yes, that is true to some extent. There are some subsidies that penalize people for bettering themselves, e.g., getting a raise or working more hours.

 

There's no easy answer. Pick one or more causes that you feel comfortable supporting, and give them as much time and material assistance as you can spare. Then don't let the rest of it bug you.

[Scarlett]

I do believe the minimum wage can be a living wage if people would live like they were minimum-wage earners. I have lived on less than minimum wage for most of my life. It has involved things like sharing with others, which some consider beneath them. The whole "why should I" proving that entitlements often lead to entitled people.

 

As for entitlements being set up to keep people poor - yes, that is true to some extent. There are some subsidies that penalize people for bettering themselves, e.g., getting a raise or working more hours.

 

There's no easy answer. Pick one or more causes that you feel comfortable supporting, and give them as much time and material assistance as you can spare. Then don't let the rest of it bug you.

 

Well said! Especially the bolded.

[choirfarm]

nm

Edited December 15, 2011 by choirfarm

[mommyrooch]

A specific way to help your community is to reach out to those hs dropouts and encourage them to go back and finish school. There are at two reports I read recently indicating these souls are just sort of written off. Nobody cares. Maybe if they thought someone cared, they would. HS principals are glad to get rid of them and have no desire to get them back to lower aggregate test scores. Finishing hs is a good idea! And this idea needs to be drilled in if it's not already obvious.

 

Finishing HS isn't even required. How about offering a service such as helping HS dropouts obtain their GED's?

 

My brother is a great example for how a GED can open doors. He didn't graduate HS. He was young and stupid. After about 2 years of struggling he decided to go back and get his GED. He got the GED and was able to start taking some classes at the local community college. He enrolled there and finished two years there. He then was able to transfer those credits to a university.

 

Long story short.... My brother was a high school dropout that was able to get into college on a GED. The GED opened that crucial first door for him. He went on to attend a university, got accepted into Pharmacy School and is now a DOCTOR OF PHARMACY!!! He went on and was able to obtain a doctors degree. Most do not know that he was a HS dropout and honestly, they don't care! They see his Pharm D degree and all else is forgotten.

 

I might also mention that we were from a low income family so he didn't have money for school. He had to get student loans the whole way through. He ended up owing right at $100,000 by the time he got out but he swears that it was the best $100,000 ever spent. He now makes over $100,000 per year so the pain was very worth the gain.

 

I know that not everyone can go on to become doctors. Many other factors come into play like intelligence, support, etc. However, I do believe most HS dropouts could go on to do more if someone was willing to invest some time in them. The GED my brother got was a crucial bridge that he needed. It opened up doors for him that allowed him to move forward. That's all I'm saying. By investing in HS dropouts by offering support, tutoring, etc. we would be helping them to open doors for themselves that could enable them to better their futures.

[gardenmom5]

. . . Another thing that has me thinking is that I personally know one family that is probably part of the 60 percent. She is a single mom with three kids. Her oldest is in junior high with a smart phone. They have no car. They can't afford one. She works at the daycare. Several years ago when the youth did some ministry in a big city, they spent one afternoon shopping and this child bought an expensive item. My boys refused to spend any money because the prices were outrageous. So financial common sense is lacking.

 

I'm not sure how you address this??? As a society we cannot afford to pay for free lunch for everyone. It isn't good for self-esteem either. How do we get a work ethic back, financial common sense, etc

So how does a rich white woman(honestly most of us in the US are rich if you see how many live on less than a dollar a day.) help the poor without enabling them?

 

Am I making any sense????

It is a hard question. If their immediate physical needs (food, shelter, adequate clothing) are being met - I'd start on teaching them about money and consequences of choices. the advantages of saving money and what you get five years from now if you defer gratification, and wait. they live in an area where 'total instant gratification' dominates. teaching them to think through choices - if you do a) what happens next? and then what? and then what? if you do b) instead, what happens? there is little of that taught in middle class neighborhood public schools, I'd imagine where you are it is even worse.

 

teaching them to play chess, can be a great thinking tool because you have to think moves ahead.

 

bless you for caring.

[justamouse]

I already do this. We go to a food pantry and a local homeless shelter. It just doesn't seem to be enought and it doesn't seem to fix the problem..Does that make sense? I am a fixer. I like everyone happy in my world. That is my job...to make everyone happy. I like to fix things that are broken.

 

I'm the same way. Mother Theresa helped me a lot with my global vision on this when she said, "Never worry about numbers. Help one person at a time and always start with the person nearest you.â€

― Mother Teresa

 

I get upset about not doing enough, and then I remember you eat the elephant one bite at a time.

[ElizabethB]

Phonics tutoring!

 

Literacy is more highly correlated with earnings than IQ:

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Phonics/profitable.html

 

Also, 70% of those on welfare are in the lowest 2 literacy levels. (On a scale of 1 to 5. The new scale only goes up to 4, I like the old scale better!)

 

I have idiot proof instructions for what I teach my classes. Typically, I see 1 -2 grade levels of improvement for each 10 hours of tutoring for a class with 1 adult for every 4 to 5 students. You can see before and after results easily and can make a big difference in a short time. My phonics lessons also have a good success rate, I hope to have DVDs available for sale by February. You could combine the 2--start with DVDs and popcorn and then shore up the problems with the classes.

[mirth]

Finishing HS isn't even required.

 

Yes, compulsory educ ends at different ages by state.

By investing in HS dropouts by offering support, tutoring, etc. we would be helping them to open doors for themselves that could enable them to better their futures.

 

Right, and there is a huge payoff to doing so for everyone involved, and even for those who are uninvolved.

[mommyrooch]

All you can do is what you can do. Volunteer. The system is designed for putting "wet band-aids" on every social problem we have.I was a social worker and be for warned that you will drive yourself crazy if you think you can change the world, I know from my own experience. The best thing to do is pick a cause YOU believe in and find a nonprofit and Volunteer there.If everyone did this it really would be a better world. Almost like a hive of bees:lol: getting a job done.

My husband's aunt told my kids a story about when she worked in Detroit and she was walking to Mass one day. A panhandler was begging so she gave him a $10 bill b/c that was all she had. The man took one look at it and gave it back saying it was too much. She said "You never know where Jesus will be that is why I gave it to him". He was always in the same spot but never begged for money from her again. Just a story but I hope you see the point.

 

Yes, my mom once gave a man $20. He was in awe! He started trying to give her things he had. (which wasn't much) He had a ratty old watch on his arm that he was insisting she take. He actually felt bad because he felt like he was taking advantage of her. He simple wouldn't take the $20 even though she tried very hard to give it to him. They compromised. There was a small cafe down the road so she asked him if she could buy him a nice hot meal. He accepted. For a short time that man got to sit inside of that warm cafe, eat a healthy, warm meal and feel like he mattered. My mom swears she saw a glimpse of God in that man that day.

[mommyrooch]

For the past 3 years, there have been about 4 job seekers for every job opening. Last April, McDonald's did a "National Hiring Day." They hired 60K people--out of one million applicants!

 

I am sure there are lazy people out there. But right now, they aren't the main issue. The main issue is people who want to work, but can't find work.

 

If and when the unemployment rate falls to 3%, then we should have a conversation about what to do about lazy people who just want a handout and don't want to work. Until and unless that happens, we shouldn't be assuming people who can't provide for themselves are lazy. We should just help them.

 

:iagree: Amen!!!

[DusksAngel]

It is at this point, with great compassion, that Jesus says, "The poor you have always with you."

 

He would never interpret that as anything but wrong. It is part of the nature of a fallen world, but a result of sinfulness (not in the poor, in general). It MUST be fought, and your having compassion and fighting it is exactly right. But it also is not going to be fixed completely in this life. However, that is no reason not to fix it where you can, and to organize others to do the same.

 

:iagree:We will never "fix" it, because the solutions only work in a perfect world. Give what you can freely give.

[Joanne]

There is a man who stands on the corner with a sign asking for help. He has a cell phone and smokes. :glare:

There is another man who stands at another corner, he has been there since January. He has a sign that read homeless with kids, please help. I have thought about this man often and wonder if giving him money will I really be helping him?

 

Good question you asked, but I have no answer.

 

My homeless friend (he now lives in the shed of a mutual friend, who happens to be Christian) has a pay as you go phone, and smokes.

 

His story is more complicated than many assume, and, aside from the nicotine, is not substance abuse related.

[Joanne]

I do believe the minimum wage can be a living wage if people would live like they were minimum-wage earners. I have lived on less than minimum wage for most of my life. .

 

I make $8.25 an hour at one of my jobs. Benefits cost me about $100 of that a month. If it were my only job, please tell me how a family of 4 (my oldest lives with his Dad) can survive on $1220 a month. We live in the Houston metro area, and cheap, unsafe apartments start at $750.

[SKL]

I make $8.25 an hour at one of my jobs. Benefits cost me about $100 of that a month. If it were my only job, please tell me how a family of 4 (my oldest lives with his Dad) can survive on $1220 a month. We live in the Houston metro area, and cheap, unsafe apartments start at $750.

 

My family of 3 shares a modest house with two other families (sometimes more), for example. We all share the same kitchen, etc., which saves a lot of money.

[emzhengjiu]

My family of 3 shares a modest house with two other families (sometimes more), for example. We all share the same kitchen, etc., which saves a lot of money.

 

 

Sharing a house with that many unrelated people would not be legal in our area because of occupancy laws. It's not as easy as you think.

 

Ann

[Joanne]

My family of 3 shares a modest house with two other families (sometimes more), for example. We all share the same kitchen, etc., which saves a lot of money.

 

I bet it does. :) It is not something I could arrange for our circumstance.

 

However, I did look into "co-abode" when I was a single mom. I would again, if something happens to Adrian.

[SKL]

Sharing a house with that many unrelated people would not be legal in our area because of occupancy laws. It's not as easy as you think.

 

Ann

 

This is an example of how the government, appearing to be concerned the welfare of the poor, makes things harder. We are plenty comfortable. (Funny thing is, even my kids are not biologically related to me. Kinda stupid to draw lines over who is / isn't related.)

[kiana]

This is an example of how the government, appearing to be concerned the welfare of the poor, makes things harder. We are plenty comfortable. (Funny thing is, even my kids are not biologically related to me. Kinda stupid to draw lines over who is / isn't related.)

 

Heck, one of my friends was told, as a single mom, that she MUST rent a two-bedroom apartment because it was inappropriate for an adult to share bedrooms with a child and no, she couldn't just sleep in the living room.

[SKL]

I would also point out that minimum wage isn't intended to be the usual wage earned by heads of households. I realize that is sometimes the case, but it's the exception rather than the rule. Forcing every employer to pay every unskilled, teen-aged worker enough to support a family does not make sense.

[Rosie_0801]

We have far fewer beggars in the city these days than when I was younger now The Big Issue is operating. It's a shame you guys don't have this, but perhaps it wouldn't work in your culture.

 

Rosie

[SKL]

Heck, one of my friends was told, as a single mom, that she MUST rent a two-bedroom apartment because it was inappropriate for an adult to share bedrooms with a child and no, she couldn't just sleep in the living room.

 

Of course we all know whom this policy is benefiting.

[In2why]

There is no limit on section 8 housing, food stamps, child care assistance, free lunches, medicaid etc.

 

 

Thankfully! I wouldn't want to be a citizen of a country that didn't help with the basic needs of its people. None of these things contribute to a cycle of dependency. You can''t live on any of them, but you can survive a low paying job.

[kiana]

Of course we all know whom this policy is benefiting.

 

'Course. Doesn't mean it's not there. A lot of places also cap two people per bedroom in rented property. Means if you're a family with 3 kids, you need 3 bedrooms. Crazy.

[Joanne]

I would also point out that minimum wage isn't intended to be the usual wage earned by heads of households. I realize that is sometimes the case, but it's the exception rather than the rule. Forcing every employer to pay every unskilled, teen-aged worker enough to support a family does not make sense.

 

You posted that minimum wage could be a LIVING WAGE if the person structured their lives correctly.

 

I'm responding that it is not true. It *might* be for a single person, no kids. But a minimum wage is not a living wage for a family.

[In2why]

 

I'm the same way. Mother Theresa helped me a lot with my global vision on this when she said, "Never worry about numbers. Help one person at a time and always start with the person nearest you.â€

― Mother Teresa

 

I get upset about not doing enough, and then I remember you eat the elephant one bite at a time.

 

 

What a great quote! I do think that it can become overwhelming when we try to look at everything.

[amo_mea_filiis.]

There is no limit on section 8 housing, food stamps, child care assistance, free lunches, medicaid etc.

 

There is a limit on section 8 housing.

[Rosie_0801]

I would also point out that minimum wage isn't intended to be the usual wage earned by heads of households. I realize that is sometimes the case, but it's the exception rather than the rule. Forcing every employer to pay every unskilled, teen-aged worker enough to support a family does not make sense.

 

We don't. There's a graded system. http://www.fairwork.gov.au/pay/national-minimum-wage/pages/default.aspx The wages for apprentices are too low unless one has supportive parents, but I was able to live comfortably on minimum wage from age 19 by sharing a house.

 

Rosie

Edited December 15, 2011 by Rosie_0801

[kiana]

I love this CS Lewis story.

 

CS Lewis gave a beggar some money. His friend chided him, saying, "Don't you know he's only going to spend that on cigarettes and drink?"

 

CS Lewis responded, "Huh. That's what I was going to spend it on, myself."

 

 

Beautiful

[In2why]

This is an example of how the government, appearing to be concerned the welfare of the poor, makes things harder. We are plenty comfortable. (Funny thing is, even my kids are not biologically related to me. Kinda stupid to draw lines over who is / isn't related.)

 

 

It is usually a county ordinance to protect the property owners around you. There are also issues with wells and septic tanks if you live in a rural area. Parking and occupancy issues in the city. I believe in generational living. But I think that common sense regulations are important as well, and I know I have seen more than one thread here suggesting someone call the zoning commissioner if they have a problem with a neighbors junk, or lots of people coming and going from a home.

[beaners]

You posted that minimum wage could be a LIVING WAGE if the person structured their lives correctly.

 

I'm responding that it is not true. It *might* be for a single person, no kids. But a minimum wage is not a living wage for a family.

 

It might not work for a single parent household, but I've seen families where both parents worked minimum wage and got by. It won't work for everyone, and the job needs to actually offer fulltime hours.

 

I personally believe it can work for a family with two earners at minimum wage because $30,000 is more than what some families I know earn combining a single income and assistance. I live in a very low cost of living area though, where minimum wage and slightly higher is the norm for all of the urban residential neighborhoods. You just have lots of houses close together. These aren't areas with high crime or dangerous conditions in the urban areas. I could go on, but I think I've made the point that it is possible in this particular area, obviously not everywhere.

[justamouse]

I love this CS Lewis story.

 

CS Lewis gave a beggar some money. His friend chided him, saying, "Don't you know he's only going to spend that on cigarettes and drink?"

 

CS Lewis responded, "Huh. That's what I was going to spend it on, myself."

 

Without going into the whole "enabling" argument, to me, the important thing is that we allow our hearts to be broken, to be made soft. One of our priests said at a meeting last year that "the poor don't need us--we need the poor." What he meant was NOT that we should keep people poor (please, give the man a little credit here...) but that we ourselves are poor in spirit when we hog everything for ourselves without concern for the other person.

 

Love it.

[SKL]

It is usually a county ordinance to protect the property owners around you. There are also issues with wells and septic tanks if you live in a rural area. Parking and occupancy issues in the city. I believe in generational living. But I think that common sense regulations are important as well, and I know I have seen more than one thread here suggesting someone call the zoning commissioner if they have a problem with a neighbors junk, or lots of people coming and going from a home.

 

Junk is a completely different issue. We do not have any junk outside and you can't even tell kids live here from the street. Also, we usually have the least garbage on our treelawn compared to our neighbors. And as for cars, our house has 3 cars; less than some of our neighbors. If the issue is junk, the law should be about junk, etc. I can't imagine what my neighbors should be allowed to say about the fact that X "unrelated" people enter and leave our house on a daily basis. Ugh. If it was just me and my 10 kids, that would somehow make it OK. ?? It's unhelpful in this economy, that's for sure. Would they rather families be homeless?

[annandatje]

I bet it does. :) It is not something I could arrange for our circumstance.

 

However, I did look into "co-abode" when I was a single mom. I would again, if something happens to Adrian.

 

I would be interested in a co-abode arrangement once my household size dwindles. Throughout the years, we have had temporary (sometimes up to a year or more) boarders who were going through difficult times. Although they did not make a financial contribution (we insisted upon no rent), they were helpful with yardwork and housework. I am always interested in hearing co-living or extended family living experiences.

[In2why]

Junk is a completely different issue. We do not have any junk outside and you can't even tell kids live here from the street. Also, we usually have the least garbage on our treelawn compared to our neighbors. And as for cars, our house has 3 cars; less than some of our neighbors. If the issue is junk, the law should be about junk, etc. I can't imagine what my neighbors should be allowed to say about the fact that X "unrelated" people enter and leave our house on a daily basis. Ugh. If it was just me and my 10 kids, that would somehow make it OK. ?? It's unhelpful in this economy, that's for sure. Would they rather families be homeless?

 

 

I wouldn't rather anything.....I stated why the ordinances came about. It is basically the same as certain zones don't allow trailers, or have covenants. As I said I like generational living situations. My adult daughter and her son live here, by choice not finances because it is best for her son. I think the elderly should be able to stay in their homes as long as possible and that sometimes means multi-family living. My neighbor is from Mexico and a new family comes at least once a year to live with them until they can establish themselves and move out where they do the same. I admire shared resources. But I also understand that some people wouldn't want these types of situations if it meant dragging down their property values, or if it was a health issue based on septic or well size. This is the primary reason for the regulations, not to keep landlords in furs.

[SKL]

It's not necessarily the gov't that limits co-generational housing. We won't rent to families such as that--it's simply too much wear and tear on the house. We had a family next to us pull that stunt and they trashed my sil's house. One of our families asked if her sis and bil could move in and we said no. It's a small house, with a small septic that just couldn't handle it. We did offer to rent our house in town to them, but they didn't feel the yard was big enough for their HUGE dog.

 

We don't rent, we own. This is the arrangement of many households I know.

 

The number of people allowed to share is one thing; number of "unrelated" people being different from the number of related people is another. Although "number of people" could make sense in some situtions, often there is no substantive reason, but rather prejudice at play. The "unrelated" side of it is clearly more prejudice. As if my neighbors have such fine, upstanding lives just because they are legally or biologically related.

 

As for moms being required to have their own separate bedroom and similar requirements, some of these are definitely government regulations as they apply specifically to subsidized housing. There are all kinds of cute twists in the development of subsidized housing that guarantee more benefit to the developers than the renters. I would be OK with the benefit to the developers, if the renters had more choices.

 

Anyhoo, this is getting off the main topic, so I apologize for that. I was mainly reacting to the comment that the solution to poverty is raising the minimum wage. That touched off a pet peeve of mine - that families in poverty are considered to "need" costly separate living arrangements. I think the whole separateness / isolation in our communities is actually problematic in many ways, and to have it forced by government or social norms bugs me all the more.

 

I know I did not articulate this very well, but I am multitasking at the moment. I hope I didn't put my foot too far into my mouth.

[TechWife]

nm

Edited December 16, 2011 by TechWife

[Deb in NZ]

Thankfully! I wouldn't want to be a citizen of a country that didn't help with the basic needs of its people. None of these things contribute to a cycle of dependency. You can''t live on any of them, but you can survive a low paying job.

 

Here in NZ there is no such thing as free school lunches, etc. In the province I live in child poverty is a big problem. A program of providing a piece of fruit daily to kids in schools in lower social-economic areas was trialed this past year. Today the biggest milk company announced that they are looking at providing a 250ml box of milk to each primary school child daily at school. It's been 40 years since milk was provided in schools.

 

Both programs are a step forward IMHO, but I was surprised to talk with a HS/ing friend today to find she has the complete opposite opinion. She provides childcare as part of a gov't program. Most of her children come from poorer families as the gov't provides 20 hrs/wk of free childcare for children aged 3-5. She was very against free food in schools as she said that since the free fruit began the kids she watched no longer had fruit in their lunchboxes as famillies no longer bought fruit for home as the school-aged kids got fruit at school daily free. Some schools have a small breakfast program & many younger siblings are no longer getting breakfast at home as parents aren't fixing breakfast because the older kids get it at school. I never thought of the price to families of "free" help. Something to think about...

[gardenmom5]

That would be because those programs benefit children, innocent victims. Perhaps you think these lucrative programs are enough to discourage people from moving forward in their lives? I suggest you are likely NOT out there in contact with the people who need these services if you think thats the case.

 

Reagan's welfare queen stereotype will never die because people love it too much.

 

and in reality, it's still alive and well. Note the date is this month, and they have been getting this money for eight years. These type of people infuriate me, because they are the ones taking money from those who truely need help.

 

here's a link with more information. the guy's a *chiropractor*. (as in a professional who make a good, comfortable wage.)

Edited December 16, 2011 by gardenmom5

[Mergath]

I do believe the minimum wage can be a living wage if people would live like they were minimum-wage earners. I have lived on less than minimum wage for most of my life. It has involved things like sharing with others, which some consider beneath them. The whole "why should I" proving that entitlements often lead to entitled people.

 

 

There's no way we could make it on minimum wage here. No way. We had to do that for awhile, and the only way we survived was because we received food assistance. We live in a tiny two-bedroom place in the cheapest part of town, and when dh was making minimum wage, we had no cable, no internet, one cheap pay-as-you-go phone for job calls, and one car that doesn't run great that I've been driving since college, which is a necessity when you live in Minnesota. Gets cold here, dontcha know.

 

We never could have afforded a mortgage, property taxes, house repairs, etc. even if we shared with someone, and our apartment would be far too small to move anyone else in. I've seen walk-in-closets the size of our living room.

 

Even with all that scrimping, we were still almost a month behind on our rent when dh finally got a decent job. Thankfully, we have a forgiving landlord. Who is very happy that we're caught up now, lol.

 

And our area really isn't that expensive. I can't even imagine surviving on minimum wage in a bigger city. It just wouldn't be possible.

[Mergath]

and in reality, it's still alive and well. Note the date is this month, and they have been getting this money for eight years. These type of people infuriate me, because they are the ones taking money from those who truely need help.

 

here's a link with more information. the guy's a *chiropractor*. (as in a professional who make a good, comfortable wage.)

 

And situations like that are so freakishly rare they make it into the national news when they do pop up.

[Mergath]

We have far fewer beggars in the city these days than when I was younger now The Big Issue is operating. It's a shame you guys don't have this, but perhaps it wouldn't work in your culture.

 

Rosie

 

I'd never heard of this before your post, but I just googled it, and that's such a great idea!

[creekland]

I suppose I'm way too late to this thread and, since I'm actually working full time now, I won't likely be able to get back to it either, but to anyone who thinks the "living off welfare of some sort" idea is rare, all you need to do is start working in a public school. I've had kids tell me they plan to do this for a living, and therefore, don't need math/English/whatever. We've seen parents (usually single moms) want all sorts of free things for their kids (claiming poverty), yet go on vacations regularly, once to the Bahamas AT THE SAME TIME they were claiming they couldn't afford $6 for their child to go on a field trip to DC. We've seen parents get jobs as soon as their unemployment ran out, then manage to get fired as soon as they qualify for benefits again. Finding a way to qualify for disability is like winning the lottery.

 

There are oodles of ways. I've only mentioned a few as I'm short on time. This type of lifestyle is certainly not rare. Working in the public school is what changed me from being a fiscal liberal to a fiscal conservative. I was sheltered from the "poor lifestyle" when I was young I suppose. We certainly weren't wealthy or even mid to upper middle class, but my parents certainly had a work ethic. Both were teachers and my dad worked a second job in the summer beekeeping (mid to large scale - 500 hives). My mom now tells me she saw all the same stuff when she was teaching. Life hasn't changed much.

 

Since I think the OP was looking for suggestions on how to help those truly in need, what we've done is find organizations who have demonstrated success and supported them. There are some ideas that work. Giving directly to people begging is seldom one of them (unless you know the reason). I know teachers who have poured hundreds, and in one case, thousands of dollars into trying to help individuals they came across in school thinking $$ would help. It didn't. The lady who tried to support one young lady is now working three jobs to try to regain her retirement $$. (She's already of retirement age.) I saw the young lady's name in our newspaper's police blotter about a month ago.

 

My own parents have given thousands to a different young lady. That person still won't keep any job (has a college education, but has difficulty getting along with people). She's had multiple jobs, but quits after a few months (usually long enough to draw unemployment). She's now without a place to live (last I heard) as places are starting to get wise and not hire her. This is YEARS later and "life" never was good in between the assistance and now.

 

$$ only helps with a plan and it's difficult to get one plan that will help all.

 

Giving things away for free only causes more unemployment most of the time as it destroys the economy related to those who produced and/or sold the items. (eg, our giving shipped in food for free to places in Africa has devastated some of the farmers there - putting them in the lines for the free food) There are better ways (buying locally - paying local workers to paint, etc).

 

Gotta go. Sorry I can't stay, but that's my two cents based upon my experiences.

[Scarlett]

And situations like that are so freakishly rare they make it into the national news when they do pop up.

 

Exactly. And it is fraud/and or loopholes that need to be stopped up.

[Scarlett]

I suppose I'm way too late to this thread and, since I'm actually working full time now, I won't likely be able to get back to it either, but to anyone who thinks the "living off welfare of some sort" idea is rare, all you need to do is start working in a public school. I've had kids tell me they plan to do this for a living, and therefore, don't need math/English/whatever. We've seen parents (usually single moms) want all sorts of free things for their kids (claiming poverty), yet go on vacations regularly, once to the Bahamas AT THE SAME TIME they were claiming they couldn't afford $6 for their child to go on a field trip to DC. We've seen parents get jobs as soon as their unemployment ran out, then manage to get fired as soon as they qualify for benefits again. Finding a way to qualify for disability is like winning the lottery.

 

There are oodles of ways. I've only mentioned a few as I'm short on time. This type of lifestyle is certainly not rare. Working in the public school is what changed me from being a fiscal liberal to a fiscal conservative. I was sheltered from the "poor lifestyle" when I was young I suppose. We certainly weren't wealthy or even mid to upper middle class, but my parents certainly had a work ethic. Both were teachers and my dad worked a second job in the summer beekeeping (mid to large scale - 500 hives). My mom now tells me she saw all the same stuff when she was teaching. Life hasn't changed much.

 

Since I think the OP was looking for suggestions on how to help those truly in need, what we've done is find organizations who have demonstrated success and supported them. There are some ideas that work. Giving directly to people begging is seldom one of them (unless you know the reason). I know teachers who have poured hundreds, and in one case, thousands of dollars into trying to help individuals they came across in school thinking $$ would help. It didn't. The lady who tried to support one young lady is now working three jobs to try to regain her retirement $$. (She's already of retirement age.) I saw the young lady's name in our newspaper's police blotter about a month ago.

 

My own parents have given thousands to a different young lady. That person still won't keep any job (has a college education, but has difficulty getting along with people). She's had multiple jobs, but quits after a few months (usually long enough to draw unemployment). She's now without a place to live (last I heard) as places are starting to get wise and not hire her. This is YEARS later and "life" never was good in between the assistance and now.

 

$$ only helps with a plan and it's difficult to get one plan that will help all.

 

Giving things away for free only causes more unemployment most of the time as it destroys the economy related to those who produced and/or sold the items. (eg, our giving shipped in food for free to places in Africa has devastated some of the farmers there - putting them in the lines for the free food) There are better ways (buying locally - paying local workers to paint, etc).

 

Gotta go. Sorry I can't stay, but that's my two cents based upon my experiences.

 

My mother was a public school teacher for 20 years in a rural low income area. I heard LOTS of stories about LOTS of people over the years. It struck me that the facts may be similar but my mom has a different overview than you. I can't articulate it well at the moment....but I think it sums up why this is always such a hot topic issue.