Would you report a homeschooling family for educational neglect if...

[catz]

Put me squarely on Team Spy Car. I wish I was stunned by the response of the majority of those in this thread, but I am not.

 

This is a homeschooling board. I don't think it's too surprising that a group of people who would like minimal interference in how they educate their own kids wouldn't necessarily interfere in someone else's homeschool without very good reason. At least in my case, I don't feel that it's my statement on my own values as a homeschooler. We're secular, both my kids are on a college prep track, and both are gifted and accelerated well ahead of grade level. I don't assume however everyone has the same goals and values as us for their kids. I don't want anyone to show up at my door and tell me it's not ok my 5th grader is doing algebra, because its not age appropriate. One size does not fit all and that's much the beauty of homeschooling. In my state, even if someone reported this it is extremely unlikely any action would be taken.

[Mandy in TN]

My opinion is colored by the experience of a family we know who was reported for educational neglect. They lost legal custody of their children to the state, though they retained physical custody. The family life was subjected to intense scrutiny, and the parents had to jump through many hoops, some wholly unrelated to education, to regain custody of the children. It was an incredibly stressful experience for the entire family. I can't imagine putting another family through that.

This is the place where I sit except the children were removed for about six months and placed in different foster homes.

 

Also, I was in a foster home for well over six months as a teen. My relationship with my mom is certainly not irreversibly broken. We talk on the phone daily.

While it is wonderful that you had such a positive outcome, this has not been my experience with families and the foster system.

 

I am much more concerned about the foster system than I am about a 9yo who is not yet reading.

Mandy

[arliemaria]

I wish you had been here for the discussion on Appalachian poverty. Did you know that only 60% of children in the whole region even go to 9th grade? If I reported this family, I'd have to report most of my own relatives who live in the Appalachians. They are illiterate, lacking options, and have even less exposure to the outside world than the homeschooling family I'm discussing.

 

I'd love to read this discussion. I grew up in a "hollow." We had a wood stove which I fondly remember my mother baking corn bread or brewing tea on most days. Nearly every winter our pipes would freeze (sometimes break) and we would be without running water until the weather improved. We were lucky to have running water. My babysitter had an outhouse and no running water and still does not have it more than 20 years later! I remember sleeping with a litter of beagles to keep warm near the wood stove. We also had a family bed, but not because my parents were attachment parents, we just needed to stay warm. I don't remember wearing shoes much when I was little during the summer, but couldn't say this was because we didn't have shoes. I am just not sure. I went to Head Start and remember being amazed at a toaster. We were poor.

 

My mother's father quit school when he was in 7th or 8th grade because they could not afford paper or shoes. When I saw the Office Depot paper ream deal a week ago or so I cried thinking about my grandfather not having paper. What we take for granted! I get upset when my wireless connection is on the fritz.

 

Anyways, I don't feel being poor is abuse or neglect. Its just a reality and one that can be overcome. My husband is an attorney and has his own solo practice. He grew up in Appalachia, but in an upper middle class family. I grew up in Appalachia with a feast to famine lifestyle. I do know lots of people, friends I went to high school with and their fathers, uncles, brothers, mothers, etc. who work in coal mines and coal burning power plants. Lots of them are poor. I don't think they think of themselves as poor. Its just their life. I don't think their children are being abused because of circumstances or location of their home.

 

Sorry this is getting long.

 

Anyways, I do not think I would report them, but I think I would talk to the parents as much as possible about offering educational support in anyway I could explaining to them the importance of life skills (including reading and math), etc. I would also make sure they were aware of the laws in their state and that other people may see them as violating them and could possibly be reported.

[Spy Car]

This is a homeschooling board. I don't think it's too surprising that a group of people who would like minimal interference in how they educate their own kids wouldn't necessarily interfere in someone else's homeschool without very good reason. At least in my case, I don't feel that it's my statement on my own values as a homeschooler. We're secular, both my kids are on a college prep track, and both are gifted and accelerated well ahead of grade level. I don't assume however everyone has the same goals and values as us for their kids. I don't want anyone to show up at my door and tell me it's not ok my 5th grader is doing algebra, because its not age appropriate. One size does not fit all and that's much the beauty of homeschooling. In my state, even if someone reported this it is extremely unlikely any action would be taken.

 

Not allowing children to read until they are 12 or 13 isn't a very good reason???

 

And how is keeping children purposeful ignorant remotely similar to teaching your child algebra in 5th Grade?

 

Bill

[Rai B.]

I have to go pick someone up right now, but

 

If someone teaches their children that those children are inferior and shouldn't expect to be worth teaching to be capable of taking care of themselves it is not their children those parents love.

 

I'd check the law (and local consequences) and consider whether to report them.

[myfunnybunch]

More likely, the authorities would work with the parents to do a better job of educating the children, or would eventually require the parents to place them in public school.

 

Most likely, there would be an investigation through child protective services, a court hearing relying almost solely on a report written by a biased (against homeschooling) and overworked social worker, and the family would lose custody of their children at that hearing, particularly if the children reported that their parents only taught them Bible and math and not reading. If the children are happy and well-adjusted otherwise, the family might retain physical custody dependent on compliance with court and state agency requirements, and would be forced to put their children into public school immediately to fulfill those requirements. This happened to someone I know personally and quite well, not just a friend of a friend of a friend. And they were fortunate to have a worker who genuinely wanted to help the family and tried to smooth the way for them. I can't imagine what it would have been like had they had someone more adverserial.

 

It's not the forcing into school that I find problematic, actually. It's that once the state becomes involved there is a very real possibility that the parents could lose legal custody of the children, and it is a nightmare to get it back. Traumatic for the whole family, even if the young children are shielded from most of it. Not only that, but they had some pretty hefty legal bills to pay as a result, which meant they faced significant financial challenges.

 

Cat

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Not allowing children to read until they are 12 or 13 isn't a very good reason???

And how is keeping children purposeful ignorant remotely similar to teaching your child algebra in 5th Grade?

 

Bill

 

It isn't remotely similar.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Not allowing children to read until they are 12 or 13 isn't a very good reason???

 

And how is keeping children purposeful ignorant remotely similar to teaching your child algebra in 5th Grade?

 

Bill

 

I didn't say they wouldn't allow the little ones to learn to read. I said it appears that they wouldn't teach them until age 12 or so.

 

Look, I do agree that this is educational neglect. I hate that bright children are being held back in this way. This philosophy is entirely opposite my own.

 

I just don't agree that X, the unknown quantity, can be assumed to be a better deal than those kids have right now. Right now, they are physically safe, clean, well-fed, very happy, and with their siblings and parents. All of those things could change in a heartbeat if someone turned them in for educational neglect.

 

You say I have a responsibility to do something because their education is neglected. What I'm not hearing from you is any kind of acknowledgement that action on my part might not bring about something better, even concerning their academic learning. I don't know anything about their local school district. I don't know what a judge would say. I don't know that they won't become physically, mentally, or emotionally ill from the trauma of having the state begin to manage their lives. Who guarantees that they'll be able to learn if they are ripped from their parents?

 

And what about the flip side of responsibility: If I reported them and they lost some of those children, the family was destroyed, and the children suffered in public school or foster care, that would be my doing. I'd be responsible for that.

 

These are the reasons I simply can't agree.

[Crissy]

 

No, I wouldn't do anything about it because I think you can get a quality year-long curriculum out of studying the Bible and math. Language Arts, Nature, Poetry, Reading, Ancient History, etc can all be studied that way.

 

 

:iagree:

[Spy Car]

I didn't say they wouldn't allow the little ones to learn to read. I said it appears that they wouldn't teach them until age 12 or so.

 

Look, I do agree that this is educational neglect. I hate that bright children are being held back in this way. This philosophy is entirely opposite my own.

 

I just don't agree that X, the unknown quantity, can be assumed to be a better deal than those kids have right now. Right now, they are physically safe, clean, well-fed, very happy, and with their siblings and parents. All of those things could change in a heartbeat if someone turned them in for educational neglect.

 

You say I have a responsibility to do something because their education is neglected. What I'm not hearing from you is any kind of acknowledgement that action on my part might not bring about something better, even concerning their academic learning. I don't know anything about their local school district. I don't know what a judge would say. I don't know that they won't become physically, mentally, or emotionally ill from the trauma of having the state begin to manage their lives. Who guarantees that they'll be able to learn if they are ripped from their parents?

 

And what about the flip side of responsibility: If I reported them and they lost some of those children, the family was destroyed, and the children suffered in public school or foster care, that would be my doing. I'd be responsible for that.

 

These are the reasons I simply can't agree.

 

You should talk to them. Try to reach them in the best way you know how. But do let them know they if they don't act, you will. As you can not morally be complicit in what you are witnessing. Then the choice is theirs.

 

Bill

[Mrs Mungo]

I knew a family where I learned the 8-9 year olds could not read at all; they couldn't even write their own names. I talked to someone in the church who *could* influence the family. The grandparents chose to pay a tutor to come to the house to help the mom.

 

There are ways to influence families and help children without reporting them to government officials. There are loads of options between "nothing" and "child protective services." eta: This is assuming an otherwise functional family.

Edited December 3, 2011 by Mrs Mungo

[catz]

It isn't remotely similar.

 

It's an atypical experience an outsider might find alarming. I've had a few people corner me when my oldest spouted off and they questioned me like I must chain him to a table day and night.

 

If there was general neglect or emotional abuse, yes, absolutely I'd report. If I thought these kids were on track to have basic reading, writing, math skills by adulthood and were in a reasonably happy home? No. The op said there was some math and bible happening (which is a book). I might use other methods to help or influence them.

 

I live in an urban area and my experience is colored by the sheer number of kids failed by the system and graduate with early elementary skills and no parent support.

[Spy Car]

I knew a family where I learned the 8-9 year olds could not read at all; they couldn't even write their own names. I talked to someone in the church who *could* influence the family. The grandparents chose to pay a tutor to come to the house to help the mom.

 

There are ways to influence families and help children without reporting them to government officials. There are loads of options between "nothing" and "child protective services."

 

I agree that reporting should not the the first step. But steps do need to be taken for the protection of these children. And if the parents don't listen to reason reporting them is a reasonable last step. Ignoring this is not OK.

 

Bill

[Lang Syne Boardie]

You should talk to them. Try to reach them in the best way you know how. But do let them know they if they don't act, you will. As you can not morally be complicit in what you are witnessing. Then the choice is theirs.

 

Bill

 

I knew a family where I learned the 8-9 year olds could not read at all; they couldn't even write their own names. I talked to someone in the church who *could* influence the family. The grandparents chose to pay a tutor to come to the house to help the mom.

 

There are ways to influence families and help children without reporting them to government officials. There are loads of options between "nothing" and "child protective services."

 

Thank you both for these posts. Especially for the bolded, Mrs Mungo.

 

I have to go to bed now! Feel free to keep talking, everyone, I'll be back tomorrow...thanks for all the input and opinions.

[Mrs Mungo]

I agree that reporting should not the the first step. But steps do need to be taken for the protection of these children. And if the parents don't listen to reason reporting them is a reasonable last step. Ignoring this is not OK.

 

Bill

 

Did I suggest anyone ignore it? No. I said there are lots of ways to help. The system *and* the public schools have *plenty* of 13 year old kids who cannot read. Kids slip through the cracks no matter *what* you would like to believe. I have known people with high school degrees who were functionally illiterate. Being reported doesn't mean that they will get help.

 

I don't care about punishing the parents. I want to get help to the kids. There are ways to do that without jumping to "report the kids or you are part of the problem! How dare you!"

 

When it comes to people heavily influenced by their church? Going to other people in the church is a really good way to start.

[Annie Laurie]

 

While it is wonderful that you had such a positive outcome, this has not been my experience with families and the foster system.

 

I am much more concerned about the foster system than I am about a 9yo who is not yet reading.

Mandy

 

:iagree:

[Spy Car]

Did I suggest anyone ignore it? No.

 

No, you didn't. I agree with you.

 

 

I said there are lots of ways to help. The system *and* the public schools have *plenty* of 13 year old kids who cannot read. Kids slip through the cracks no matter *what* you would like to believe.

 

You think I'm unaware that some public schools are tragically failing children? It is a terrible reality in some places.

 

Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

 

I don't care about punishing the parents. I want to get help to the kids. There are ways to do that without jumping to "report the kids or you are part of the problem! How dare you!"

 

My advice was speak to the parents. Reporting would be a last step and not one I'd take lightly or out-of-the-blue. But I would intervene in the way I thought would bring the best results, because standing by would not be acceptable to me. It sounds like we see that the same way.

 

Bill

[kiana]

The original question was -- "Would you report?" not "Would you attempt to influence them to educate their children?"

 

I think there'd have been far more affirmative answers to the second question.

[Mrs Mungo]

No, you didn't. I agree with you.

 

 

 

 

You think I'm unaware that some public schools are tragically failing children? It is a terrible reality in some places.

 

Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

My point was not that it's wrong that kids graduate high school not knowing how to read. My point was that I have *zero* confidence in the system to fix this sort of problem. Therefore, reporting it to the system would not be my reaction.

 

My advice was speak to the parents. Reporting would be a last step and not one I'd take lightly or out-of-the-blue. But I would intervene in the way I thought would bring the best results, because standing by would not be acceptable to me. It sounds like we see that the same way.

 

Mostly, except you have more faith in the system to fix problems than I do.

[Spy Car]

The original question was -- "Would you report?" not "Would you attempt to influence them to educate their children?"

 

I think there'd have been far more affirmative answers to the second question.

 

And if it comes to a binary choice I would report them. But as is so often the case in life there are not just two choices we can make. Doing nothing to protect these children would not be a morally acceptable option for me.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

Mostly, except you have more faith in the system to fix problems than I do.

 

I think it would be far better for the family to fix their own problems. But that is unlikely to happen if good people—friends of these people and their children—sit idly by and witness what is happening and do not act.

 

People wonder why scandals happen and no one acts? This is why. People circle the wagons and put the blame on the "outsiders," while shielding the wrong-doers in their midsts. This has to stop.

 

Bill

[Mrs Mungo]

I think it would be far better for the family to fix their own problems. But that is unlikely to happen if good people—friends of these people and their children—sit idly by and witness what is happening and do not act.

 

People wonder why scandals happen and no one acts? This is why. People circle the wagons and put the blame on the "outsiders," while shielding the wrong-doers in their midsts. This has to stop.

 

:confused: Where has anyone put blame anywhere but on the parents and perhaps a little bit the VF philosophy (which, deserves it, IMO)? Again, I've been in this position (and the kids involved were younger), and I sought out help for the family. But, helping and blaming/shaming are different things.

[Spy Car]

:confused: Where has anyone put blame anywhere but on the parents and perhaps a little bit the VF philosophy (which, deserves it, IMO)? Again, I've been in this position (and the kids involved were younger), and I sought out help for the family. But, helping and blaming/shaming are different things.

 

I, like you, agree the children and the family should be helped. No one gets help if people who witness these sorts of things remain passive and make excuses for these people's behavior.

 

Bill

[GWOB]

I think it would be far better for the family to fix their own problems. But that is unlikely to happen if good people—friends of these people and their children—sit idly by and witness what is happening and do not act.

 

People wonder why scandals happen and no one acts? This is why. People circle the wagons and put the blame on the "outsiders," while shielding the wrong-doers in their midsts. This has to stop.

 

Bill

 

You do have a point. This is just such a gray area. One could (rightly) argue that the children are indeed being hurt. But to what degree of "hurt"? Are they really being abused? Neglected? Where does educational neglect rank against real physical, sexual, verbal, and emotional abuse? Am I willing to live with the consequences of potentially ripping apart a happy family because their educational goals do not match my own?

 

Homeschoolers are, by definition, an individual bunch. We choose to break with tradition and go our own way. We value our independence. We enjoy the freedom to choose our own educational paths. While I may consider using Saxon math or Teaching Textbooks cruel and unusual punishment, someone may consider my choice of using CLE math for one of my dc terrible. Someone may see me out on Thursdays with my dc and think I am neglecting their education. They have no way of knowing my dc take piano, PE, and Karate on Thursdays. You just never really know what goes on at home.

 

Finally, I will admit some reluctance in notifying authorities. Once I sttended school with a black eye, puffy lips, and bruised ribs. My case was reported to Child Protective Services. Nothing at all was done. I don't trust those people. Yes, I am letting my personal experiences cloud my judgement. I just don't trust those people. Mrs. Tibbie should try to help those kids as much as she can, but in no way should she report that family.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I, like you, agree the children and the family should be helped. No one gets help if people who witness these sorts of things remain passive and make excuses for these people's behavior.

 

Bill

 

But the OP has and is trying to continue to positively influence this family. She has already influenced the family to get Singapore math. She's used her most recent encounter to try and influence them in the language arts. She's wise enough to know that a direct "authoritarian" kind of confrontation will fail because according to their philosophy there is only room for one authoritarian influence - that of the dad.

 

Tibbie - I'll be praying for this family - that your influence will continue to inspire this family to grow educationally. (And even if you don't pray, Bill, you can wish Tibbie well in her stealth attempts to bring culture and education to this family).

[Mrs Mungo]

I, like you, agree the children and the family should be helped. No one gets help if people who witness these sorts of things remain passive and make excuses for these people's behavior.

 

If you knew a 12 year old who had attended school all of his or her life and could not read, would you call CPS? You say that you would if it were a homeschooled child, so what if the child attended public school? Would you still report the family to CPS? What do you think would CPS do about it if the child was not missing school? Would you still say that the family was guilty of neglect and abuse?

[Spy Car]

But the OP has and is trying to continue to positively influence this family. She has already influenced the family to get Singapore math. She's used her most recent encounter to try and influence them in the language arts. She's wise enough to know that a direct "authoritarian" kind of confrontation will fail because according to their philosophy there is only room for one authoritarian influence - that of the dad.

 

Tibbie - I'll be praying for this family - that your influence will continue to inspire this family to grow educationally. (And even if you don't pray, Bill, you can wish Tibbie well in her stealth attempts to bring culture and education to this family).

 

I certain do wish her well in her efforts (which I'm pretty certain she understands). What I hope is that she will feel supported to do more, rather than seeing the unanimity of opinion being to turn a blind-eye. I am offering moral support.

 

Bill

[SKL]

The OP has mentioned that she is trying to tactfully influence the family to ramp the education up a notch. That said, I think some of the comments here about moral responsibility are a bit dramatic.

 

It's not like these kids are being kept in cages or closets with no access to knowlege. Based on the info we have, they are being educated on a daily basis. Just not the way most of us would educate.

 

I think that the only way to really tell how behind these kids are would be to test them comprehensively. We have been brought up to believe that reading needs to be taught early on in order for a person to be educated, but that is not necessarily true. I guess it depends on how you define "educated," but in the context of alleging educational neglect, I'd be more concerned about the ultimate outcome (at graduation age) than where the child was at a random point in time. Haven't many of us had a kid who would struggle with some subject if forced into PS at an arbitrary time? And, doesn't everyone know that kids pick up reading a lot faster if you wait until they are older? Personally I don't do things that way, but it's not unheard of. The age of 12 is extreme for this day and age, but maybe they have a reason for it. I'd say, let's hear them out and see how their method works in the long run, before we declare that their kids are goners.

 

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned is that it would be traumatic to force these kids into school if indeed they are so unfamiliar with things their peers are learning. They will be publicly shamed and humiliated on a daily basis. I think we all know how that can affect educational outcomes, regardless of native ability. If only we could trust the state to actually do what is best for these individual kids, - but we can't.

 

I agree with the idea of gently pointing out homeschooling laws. For example, asking the mom, "I understood that the law requires xyz be included in the curriculum. How are you getting around that?" Maybe they don't realize they aren't meeting minimum standards on an ongoing basis. But like the OP said, you can't be overtly judgmental and still have the family's ear.

[Spy Car]

You do have a point. This is just such a gray area. One could (rightly) argue that the children are indeed being hurt. But to what degree of "hurt"? Are they really being abused? Neglected? Where does educational neglect rank against real physical, sexual, verbal, and emotional abuse? Am I willing to live with the consequences of potentially ripping apart a happy family because their educational goals do not match my own?

 

I think educational neglect ranks as a pretty seriously form of child abuse. Referring to this as "educational goals that do not match my own" rather trivializes the problem.

 

Bill

[Jean in Newcastle]

If these people are truly Vision Forum followers (instead of being "similar to Vision Forum in philosophy") then I would have a hard time believing that the kids are getting no intellectual stimulation outside of a short devotional. Of course, the OP has seen their house while I haven't, but looking at the VF catalog, the books are mostly of a language rich variety. History is valued. So are practical arts and math in the context of the family and business. It is true that I don't see anything of higher math or science in the catalog. But I wouldn't say the offerings in the catalog (which I would presume might show some insight into that subculture of thought) is anti-education. It actually is more in line with the more hardline classicists who spurn math and the sciences for the humanities.

[tex-mex]

If these people are truly Vision Forum followers (instead of being "similar to Vision Forum in philosophy") then I would have a hard time believing that the kids are getting no intellectual stimulation outside of a short devotional. Of course, the OP has seen their house while I haven't, but looking at the VF catalog, the books are mostly of a language rich variety. History is valued. So are practical arts and math in the context of the family and business. It is true that I don't see anything of higher math or science in the catalog. But I wouldn't say the offerings in the catalog (which I would presume might show some insight into that subculture of thought) is anti-education. It actually is more in line with the more hardline classicists who spurn math and the sciences for the humanities.

I was wondering the same thing.

 

Perhaps the family is quasi-VF or using ATI material?

 

I wonder if the older children plan on career choices like armed forces, apprenticeship, entrepeneur (i.e. Josh Duggar inheriting Dad's Used Car biz w/ brother), or manual labor?

 

If they are ATI or VF, the patriarchal viewpoint is that the father provides for the family and the wife stays at home. Much like the Duggars. They expect the girls to stay at home until marriage. But even they encourage their girls to do online courses or volunteer with local fire department. :confused:

Edited December 3, 2011 by tex-mex

[lewelma]

I'm completely in Bill's camp. Do SOMETHING. Take a year to influence (but not more), but if nothing comes of it, you have a responsibility to those children.

 

Ruth in NZ

[Laura Corin]

Actively prevent children from learning? Hmm. I do get the impression that the teens are prevented from learning enough to aim for college.

...........

Allowed to go to school if they wanted? 100% No.

 

Despite my instincts towards imposing structure and my personal anxieties about doing enough, I've tried to understand and accept many styles of home education. This goes beyond neglect, however, to a deliberate policy of constraining a child's potential. I would have to be very sure that this is, in fact, what is going on, but then I would report.

 

ETA: have now read the entire thread, and would like to commend Tibbie for what she is trying to do. If there is movement towards a decent education, then reporting wouldn't be my first action. It there isn't such movement, then I would report.

 

Laura

Edited December 3, 2011 by Laura Corin

[Parker Martin]

.

Edited December 3, 2011 by Parker Martin
OT

[Pamela H in Texas]

ETA: This post is being written after the OP. I have not yet read the prior 83 responses. Looking over some on this page (my pages are 30 posts long), I see I missed some information as well as a lot of discussion.

 

I could make a case for these parents actually educating their children.

 

Seriously, they probably don't live in a bubble. The chances the children are doing NOTHING is really slim. So everything else they are doing can likely be put into educational language.

 

Then "bible study" could be pretty inclusive. Our regular Bible study includes:

 

History from the time period of the scriptures (a pretty broad time period from creation through the first century C.E. (A.D.)).

History that has happened since, usually a very direct correlation to scripture.

Current events relating scripture to modern day.

Sociology - what we and other people believe, why, and what scripture says about it.

Reading whether a scripture for a young child or the entire Bible for a teenager.

Reading comprehension - what is the point of reading if you don't have some comprehension of the Bible account and/or message

How to look up information - how detailed this is depends; but could be as simple as finding a reference to finding multiple scriptures about a particular topic.

Critical Thinking - depends, of course, on the people involved and where they take this.

Notetaking - highlighting key information, taking notes for commenting at meetings or for personal usage, etc.

Notetaking would also be requiring at least a little writing.

Science - there is all sorts of science available though I will agree you'd actually have focus to see it then add in other materials in most cases.

Languages - many people who seriously study the Bible do so with some study of Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, Latin, old English, etc.

"good citizenship" is covered pretty well in scripture :)

 

And then they teach math too.

 

It isn't how *I* would homeschool, but they *could* be covering well more than a typical elementary or jr high education would. I would have to add in considerably more science, math, language, and writing to fill it out even if I worked my backside off to make the study appropriate social studies and language arts wise. But I don't think we can just assume that "Bible study" just means a short discussion of the Golden Rule or a cursory reading of a Bible account.

 

Anyway, without information, I couldn't make a firm decision; but it is *very* unlikely I would say anything about anyone else's homeschooling style (except on here :) ). Seriously though, it'd almost be difficult NOT to cover Texas' required subjects (other than perhaps spelling) with "Bible study" and "a little math."

 

And again, what are the kids doing the time outside that hour or two? If they are sitting in front of Batman and Spongebob, maybe they aren't getting much else. MarioKart doesn't have much to offer either. But some educational tv, following interests, doing volunteer work, being involved with sports or an art, practicing an instrument, etc all could be put in schoolish terms.

Edited December 3, 2011 by 2J5M9K

[creekland]

I just finished reading this and my first thought is that this is WHY PA has their homeschooling regulations and WHY I support PA even if the regulations are a nuisance for those of us who do educate our kids.

 

My second thought was wondering if you can introduce them to some of the conservative Christian curricula like BJU or Abeka? I haven't seen a lot of either, but we used Abeka for high school health and I really liked it. We used BJU for high school Geography, and while there were a couple of drawbacks, I still have it on my personal 'recommend' list.

 

I can't see where either curriculum would go against their values AND the kids would be getting more of an education.

 

They might not know these options exist. If they could thumb through some examples, they might like what they see and it could be a win-win.

 

I wouldn't report them without trying other things first.

[kolamum]

But if Joe Citizen reports a family for anything, Joe Citizen doesn't get to offer the possible solutions. A judge would do that.

 

And the judge would almost certainly insist on public school, or even removing children if he had a really strong anti-homeschool bias. You'd have zero control over what happened to that family. You'd have zero way to protect them or speak up for them.

 

So you see why we're all nearly unanimous in biting our lip when we learn of such a situation.

 

Agreed, but if your non-religious non-unschooling neighbors let their kids run around and didn't teach them but read to them from the newspaper each day and considered it school. Would you feel differently? Would you see the situation through a different set of eyes if it weren't your friends?

 

I know it's cruel to think that a judge could decide for them.. I think I was meaning an umbrella school in a smaller field. One that could influence them to seek help or step up their education a notch so that they wouldn't have to be told what to do by a judge. Kwim?

 

I think it's unfair that the children aren't given the opportunity to learn. They may be a very sweet and kind family, but what happens if they HAVE to be thrown out into the world. Could they survive? No one knows what tomorrow happens, God forbid it, but what if something happened to their parents and these children suddenly had no choice but to attend school.

 

I respect, and totally understand, why other homeschoolers don't want to turn fellow homeschoolers in. I think sometimes we have to look at as the same tough love we must show our children when they choose to do something they shouldn't. Do we let them continue forward in their mistake making a path they might not be able to scramble off of, or do we take a deep breath, correct them, and help them quickly return to the right path?

 

Personally I'm shocked that people are so indifferet to this sort of neglect that they would do nothing about it. Unbelievable!

 

Bill

 

I like this statement.. We, as homeschoolers, are so quick to throw it in the public school's face when they fail children, but when fellow homeschoolers fail their own children we like to sweep the dust under the rug because we don't want to have another judge tell us what we can and can't do with our kids.

 

I get that. I get that we don't want to inflict that kind of irritation and "injustice" on likeminded people, but I think when it comes right down to it, people who don't educate their children are NOT like minded people. They are simply people who hide behind the title of homeschooling.

[creekland]

We, as homeschoolers, are so quick to throw it in the public school's face when they fail children, but when fellow homeschoolers fail their own children we like to sweep the dust under the rug because we don't want to have another judge tell us what we can and can't do with our kids.

 

I get that. I get that we don't want to inflict that kind of irritation and "injustice" on likeminded people, but I think when it comes right down to it, people who don't educate their children are NOT like minded people. They are simply people who hide behind the title of homeschooling.

 

:iagree:

[Rebecca VA]

I wonder if we don't know the whole story here. The dad makes an excellent income, but they don't have books in their home? But they're allowed to use the library? But...they can't read.

 

What kinds of hobbies do they have? Do they ever travel? Do they play instruments?

 

If the dad makes an excellent income, is the family involved in his work? Does he plan to hand his business down to his children one day?

 

Part of this story seems to be missing.

 

I don't agree with all of the VF philosophy, but I have met and travelled with the VF crowd on a number of occasions. I know that the Phillips family practices a form of unschooling. They travel a lot, study a lot of history, read stacks of old-fashioned moral books that have good information in them, and are able to do many practical things. They admire scholarly, Godly people very much. Some VF devotees are very highly academic, others have a more practical lifestyle. Vision Forum-type parents are generally intelligent and charming and the kids are extremely nice. This is the VF inner circle type people. It's entirely possible that some people have chosen to warp their example and keep their children from all outside influences, but I don't think you should blame VF entirely for that. I hate to say it, but there are a *lot* of nutcases who follow VF and twist its messages.

[Pamela H in Texas]

I just don't agree that X, the unknown quantity, can be assumed to be a better deal than those kids have right now. Right now, they are physically safe, clean, well-fed, very happy, and with their siblings and parents. All of those things could change in a heartbeat if someone turned them in for educational neglect.

 

The chances are very great that all of it *would* change AND their educational situation would still be dismal. First, NO child is going to be happy being removed from their family. My kids were severely neglected and abused for years yet we still heard, "me miss my mommy" which is perfectly reasonable in the mind of a child. There are are large number of foster homes where children are not well cared for (clean, fed, clothed well). The girl at "I Was a Foster Child" had TWO good homes out of the 11 years she was in care. In the rest, she was neglected, abused, raped. She has lifetime scars, physical and mental, because of it. And then there are the FACTS about the educational neglect of foster children.

 

So some people are saying that reporting doesn't mean removal. That is true. The state is supposed to do everything in it's power to keep the family intact. Ideally, a case plan can be worked while the children are at home. However, the state doesn't always do things ideally. And really, there are many parents who feel VERY strongly so would find complying with the state's plan difficult or impossible. In a case of God's law or man's? We may not see it that way, but would the family? So removal, if the state isn't ideal, perceives the family won't comply, or feels the situation is serious enough, is a real concern.

 

 

I think sometimes we have to look at as the same tough love we must show our children when they choose to do something they shouldn't. Do we let them continue forward in their mistake making a path they might not be able to scramble off of, or do we take a deep breath, correct them, and help them quickly return to the right path?

 

It wouldn't be the parents who would be getting the slap on the wrist. It would be the children who could possibly have an experience worse than prison yet THEY weren't the ones who did something wrong. Nope. The kids are getting a basic education (eventually). As grown people, they will be literate and know basic math. Not how I would do it, but.... Fostercare would be an inappropriate and unfortunate consequence to the CHILDREN (the ones who need the protecting).

 

Goodness, how many people would lose their kids if it was based off of MY belief regarding what was neglectful or abusive? I think we should be encouraging parents to do better. However, a judge deciding needs to be held out for those who really would be better off taking their chances in foster care. No one is talking about this family having THAT level of neglect or abuse.

Edited December 3, 2011 by 2J5M9K

[9763653]

These children would likely be removed from the home and put in foster care. This large of a group would almost certainly not be placed together. So, they would not only loose their parents, but their siblings as well.

 

Even if the foster placement were a good one, there wouldn't be the love of a family or even a permanent home. The older kids may stay in that situation until they aged out. The younger ones may eventually go back home at some point 6 months or more down the road after the parents go to parenting classes and agree to make modifications in their home and agree to continue sending the children to school. The children's relationships with each other and with their parents would likely be irreversibly broken.

 

This is the hesitation with reporting.

Mandy

 

Would children who were otherwise well-cared for and fed really be put into foster care for educational neglect (which this certainly is)? Would not insisting the children are placed in public school be more appropriate?

 

I am not sure whether I would report this. I hold libertarian political views for pragmatic reasons (mostly due to the nature of the government where we actually live), but I think that "their children, their responsibility" is a short-sighted view. These children won't be able to function well in society, and get jobs, if the situation is that bad. It sounds like OP knows this family well enough that she is judging the situation accurately. This goes beyond someone disagreeing with your personal view of education, and I don't think families like this do homeschoolers in general any good either.

 

Would you, if you were a child in that family, appreciate it in the long-term if someone tried to make sure you got an adequate education? I think I would appreciate not being crippled to the extent I was barely literate as an adult. I might report, if the situation would really improve after that. I do understand the reasons for not reporting as well.

[Ann]

This is really tough but I am curious to know if the kids know how to write. The OP says dad reads the Bible and they are doing a little math but there is no mention of writing. Also are the older kids functionally literate? Do they actually go to the library and take out books/participate? How frequently do they see others since it sounds like they don't see people close by but when they travel? This is a really tricky situation.

[SnowWhite]

No, I would not report, because like many previous posters I believe the children's physical, mental, emotional and spiritual well-being trump educational well-being every time.

 

I also believe that once Pandora's box has been opened in the form of the older children learning to read it won't be long till younger siblings follow in their footsteps. Children will do *something* with their time and unless they are being used as slave labor (something I *would* report), they will share their skill and knowledge in their spare time. There are many waking hours in which to learn to read and write.

 

Here are some great suggestions to continue your stealth education inspiration campaign:

 

Send them a couple of copies of Keepers and Contenders for the Faith manuals. I am giggling visualizing the competition that will materialize as the younger ones strive to match the number of badges of the older siblings, which require reading and notebook pages. These manuals would likely also appeal to the parents as they are super conservative and value old fashioned skills and spiritual training.

 

Send them packages of lovely nature-centered or Christian oriented picture books. (I dare 8 and 9 year old children not to learn to read while their older siblings are reading these aloud to them).

 

Set up pen-pal relationships between the "on the verge of literate" children and your children or yourself. With so little outside contact, I imagine these kids fight over the daily mail delivery. Then they would have to learn to write so they could respond to the letters.

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

I've only read a few of the responses. No, I wouldn't report them if they were happy and well fed. Are they learning other things, like life skills? Can they grow food, fix cars, sew, anything otherwise useful? I'd be worried that they wouldn't be able to support themselves when they are adults. Depending on your relationship with them, I'd maybe let the older kids know you were available to discuss things with them, so that if they want to learn more, you could point them in the right direction. I'm all for people having freedom of educational choice and rights to their own lifestyle, but it makes me sad when the choices of the parents aren't seemingly in the best interest of the kids.

[radiobrain]

I haven't read all the responses.

 

NO. I would not report. If I don't report my unschooling friends (who I personally question) and I don't want to be reported by someone who might think that what I am doing "isn't enough", I would NEVER judge someone else's choices....especially if everything else is good.

 

Besides, you have no idea what is really going on. You are only going on what you have been told. Maybe she doesn't want you in her business. Maybe she thinks that brief explanation is satisfactory. I have been known to abbreviate what we are doing for a zillion reasons. Sometimes, I just shrug as I am not in the mood to talk about it.

 

If these sorts of things have been addressed already (as I am sure they have) ignore me.

[MariannNOVA]

Have not read all the answers.

 

That being said, no, I would not report such a family. In fact, I am stunned that I actually do know so many families who actually do much much less than mentioned by the OP.

 

And, ftr, I think that if one goes down rabbit trails, one is capable of giving an education to children using Bible and Math.

 

I know folks who have 10 and 11 year olds who have not been taught to read.

[Trish]

Well, there's also the thought that just because someone tells you something doesn't mean it's actually true. I mean, you might have "probable cause," but when the SWAT team shows up they might pull out completed workbooks!

[mytwomonkeys]

no. i wouldn't report them. if the older kids are reading, obviously they cover other subjects outside of bible and math.

[Halcyon]

I think the post begs the question "What does it mean to be educated?" and can we define what a well-rounded, pre-college, modern education means? Is there one definition? Is there a baseline? What is that baseline? Can it be defined?

 

I think, in present-day America, you CAN define "proper education". Does it mean that everyone gets one? No. Does it mean that public schools don't constantly fail their charges? No. But Bill has it right when he says two wrongs don't make a right. Simply because we all know some kids who can't read at 13, and we know some publicly schooled kids who can't do basic multiplication at 15 doesn't mean that homeschooled kids get a pass.

 

For me, it seems the intent of the parents is at question here. I know unschoolers whose philosophy differs from mine, but the parents make a concerted effort to provide a wide range of experiences and exposure to their children. If these parents' intention is to keep the children sheltered, purposefully undereducated and ignorant, then yes, I have a serious problem.

 

Additionally, if a homeschool parent's intentions are well-placed, but they continually fail to meet their own standards, that would also be a problem for me. For example, I have a friend who has 4 kids. She has all the books, she has the worksheets, she goes to the library...she sort of has a plan. But she very rarely follows through. Most days her kids are watching television. I consider this far worse than an unschooler who actively works to provide educational opportunities to their children.

[SailorMom]

Well - I think it is neglectful, but I also think their home is a far better place for those kids to be than in a foster system - and I don't think the government should get involved.

If they are part of a church - I think the church should say something.