Another religion-related question: How do you join a denomination...

[melissel]

...when you don't agree with all the key tenets? I'd have to think that most people don't agree with every tenet of the denomination to which they belong. How do you go about accepting the inconsistency? I've wondered this since I was in Catholic school, when I became aware that my family members flat-out disagreed with some of the church teachings. Can you still be a "good Catholic," or a good "whatever" if you disagree on some of the important points? If you can't, then what do you do?

 

Again, thanks for your thoughts, and my apologies if I'm overstepping somehow.

[Sputterduck]

I wouldn't think that most people disagree with their own faith.

[melissel]

I wouldn't think that most people disagree with their own faith.

 

Hm, maybe I don't mean the key tenets. Maybe I mean important elements? I'm thinking along the lines of homosexuality or birth control or abortion or things like that. If you don't believe that homosexuality is wrong, for example, but the denomination you are drawn to or belong to does, how do you reconcile your believing differently?

[momma aimee]

...when you don't agree with all the key tenets? I'd have to think that most people don't agree with every tenet of the denomination to which they belong. How do you go about accepting the inconsistency? I've wondered this since I was in Catholic school, when I became aware that my family members flat-out disagreed with some of the church teachings. Can you still be a "good Catholic," or a good "whatever" if you disagree on some of the important points? If you can't, then what do you do?

 

Again, thanks for your thoughts, and my apologies if I'm overstepping somehow.

 

Personally I do not think you DO. I understand many many many do -- 'cafeteria Catholics' and the what have you -- but to my way of thinking, you can't in good faith join a group and disagree with a doctrinal issue (not talking who should teach Sunday School this semester, i mean infant baptism).

 

Dh and i are concertive Christians and currently without a church home for this very reason. :D

[Ellie]

...when you don't agree with all the key tenets? I'd have to think that most people don't agree with every tenet of the denomination to which they belong. How do you go about accepting the inconsistency? I've wondered this since I was in Catholic school, when I became aware that my family members flat-out disagreed with some of the church teachings. Can you still be a "good Catholic," or a good "whatever" if you disagree on some of the important points? If you can't, then what do you do?

 

Again, thanks for your thoughts, and my apologies if I'm overstepping somehow.

I don't see how you could do that.

 

A Catholic who doesn't agree with what the Church teaches needs to be speaking regularly with his priest until he works it out.

[justamouse]

...when you don't agree with all the key tenets? I'd have to think that most people don't agree with every tenet of the denomination to which they belong. How do you go about accepting the inconsistency? I've wondered this since I was in Catholic school, when I became aware that my family members flat-out disagreed with some of the church teachings. Can you still be a "good Catholic," or a good "whatever" if you disagree on some of the important points? If you can't, then what do you do?

 

Again, thanks for your thoughts, and my apologies if I'm overstepping somehow.

 

 

I was RCIA last week and the Deacon who is teaching said that the Catholics tend to be, "Here comes everybody," (James Joyce right?) meaning yes, everyone does have some points of contention-it's a journey and we're all at different parts, right? Whereas Protestants split off and start a new denomination.

 

It's the working out as the One, that purifies us and grows virtue in us.

 

There was some I disagreed with, but I'm allowing myself to grow INTO it.

 

All you have to do is read some of the Fathers' blogs to understand what I'm talking about. The comboxes are full of a wide variety of positions. :-)

Edited October 11, 2011 by justamouse

[Twigs]

Some people join without knowing their own beliefs and / or the beliefs of the denomination. I did that in my 20's. I probably would not join a denomination or church now based on that experience, plus I don't find modern day church membership practices in the bible.

[Aubrey]

1. I figure that it's those who care deeply who find themselves in this position. (Not that those who agree 100% w/ their faith don't care, just that those who don't agree aren't just being difficult or flippant.)

 

2. So you search for one you do agree w/ 100%. You get excited & disappointed a lot. Maybe you change your mind on some things, but still don't find 100%.

 

3.

Option A: Give up. Become an atheist, a non-practicing Christian, or something else like that.

 

Option B: Start your own thing. Home church, non-denominational, etc. Leave when you no longer agree.

 

Option C: Compromise. Accept that 100% agreement may not happen. Do the best you can w/ the agreement you've got. Be open to having your heart/mind changed, but don't force it.

 

Option D: See if you can get brainwashed by the denomination of your choice so that the details never bother you again. ;)

[HRAAB]

There are teachings that I don't 'understand'. I try to keep an open mind and heart so God can speak to me - or knock me upside the head - whatever works best. It's like 'okay God, I don't get it, but it must be important if the Church says it is, so be patient with me, I'm trying'. I don't think it's unusual to have occasional doubts - big or little - at different times in your faith journey, and I think it's okay to have those doubts, but it's important to trust God and stay open.

[8circles]

I was RCIA last week and the Deacon who is teaching said that the Catholics tend to be, "Here comes everybody," (James Joyce right?) meaning yes, everyone does have some points of contention-it's a journey and we're all at different parts, right? Whereas Protestants split off and start a new denomination.

 

It's the working out as the One, that purifies us and grows virtue in us.

 

There was some I disagreed with, but I'm allowing myself to grow INTO it.

 

All you have to do is read some of the Fathers' blogs to understand what I'm talking about. The comboxes are full of a wide variety of positions. :-)

 

Do you not know any former Catholics? I'm not sure how that is any different. I think most people are aware that there are other choices out there that they are free to explore if what they currently have isn't what they want. I'm not really familiar with anyone who has actually started their own denomination.

[Aubrey]

I wanted to add--I think this is a good question. And for some issues, I think you can find clear answers in Scripture. Not all, of course, but...*some.*

[8circles]

...when you don't agree with all the key tenets? I'd have to think that most people don't agree with every tenet of the denomination to which they belong. How do you go about accepting the inconsistency? I've wondered this since I was in Catholic school, when I became aware that my family members flat-out disagreed with some of the church teachings. Can you still be a "good Catholic," or a good "whatever" if you disagree on some of the important points? If you can't, then what do you do?

 

Again, thanks for your thoughts, and my apologies if I'm overstepping somehow.

 

I'm majorly multi-tasking at the moment so forgive my scattered thoughts.

If you're talking about Christianity, I think its important to keep your eyes focused on Jesus & spend lots of time in prayer & asking others to pray for you. I think that many (not all) times the Holy Spirit can speak to us through our doubts or questions (not all our doubts or questions) & its important to seek the answers from Him.

[AimeeM]

nm

[ktgrok]

Well, some of that has to do with the difference between dogma and doctrine. I think most Catholics believe in the big things of the faith, but it is permissable to have differences of opinion about the little things. Those tend to change over time.

 

My church, the Anglican/Episcopal church, doesn't require everyone to believe the same thing. What unites us is our group prayer and worship, which is the same from church to church, even if the person in the pew next to me doesn't believe the same as me about old earth/young earth.

 

so it depends :)

[twoforjoy]

This is why I'm an Episcopalian. :P

 

But, yes, I do think you can be a good member of a denomination and disagree with things. I know a lot of people I'd consider good Catholics who disagree with the RCC on certain teachings. But they remain Catholic because, for them, the RCC is, if not the church, then their church. They have a family-like relationship with it, and you don't leave your family just because, for example, you disagree over politics.

 

A lot of times--I'd say most of the time--denominational affiliation probably has more to do with family/culture than with church teaching/doctrine.

[Spy Car]

 

A Catholic who doesn't agree with what the Church teaches needs to be speaking regularly with his priest until he works it out.

 

That might work except for the pesky fact that many Priests don't agree with Vatican policies on many of these issues either.

 

If all the American Catholics who have any divergent positions on birth control, divorce, homosexuality, a married priesthood, etc. walked out of the Roman Catholic Church I think you'd have a drastically smaller Church. And that includes Priests.

 

Bill

[KrissiK]

I think you can be a member and still disagree. I've done it several times. We are Presbyterian, but we don't agree with infant baptism. We are credo-baptists. However, we refuse to allow this to be a sticking point. We know this is our denomination's teaching and so we don't argue with it. We support the teaching, we support other people who believe that way and would never try to change their minds. We just don't agree with it ourselves.

[Pink Fairy]

I didn't accept all of the Catholic Church's teachings at the start. I didn't know most of them, lol, and some of the difficult ones I didn't even want to know. It was only as I began to fall in love with the Church, with Jesus really, that I wanted to know as much as I could. The more I knew, the more it made sense, and I was able to accept things that had originally sounded ridiculous. This happened mostly before I actually joined the Church, but I know for my parents it didn't come until after.

 

I am now at the point in my faith where the biggies (abortion and birth control, homosexuality, Mary and the Pope, etc.) are easy. It's the day to day living, i.e., loving God with all my strength, and my neighbor (everyone) as myself that are hard. People are annoying--I am annoying, lol--but even when my dh is on my last nerve, for example, I should treat him with love and respect. Accepting the little everyday contradictions without complaining, being patient with other people's faults and my own, offering up to God my disappointments and irritations--those are the things I struggle with now.

[JenniferB]

I hope to chime in a little later. I have recent personal experience with this very issue.

[Ipsey]

That might work except for the pesky fact that many Priests don't agree with Vatican policies on many of these issues either.

 

If all the American Catholics who have any divergent positions on birth control, divorce, homosexuality, a married priesthood, etc. walked out of the Roman Catholic Church I think you'd have a drastically smaller Church. And that includes Priests.

 

Bill

 

I know tons of practicing Catholics. My husband's family (he's one of 9 siblings) is Catholic, and I've got scads of Catholic friends. All of the married females are on birth control. I know only one friend, a Vatican I Catholic, who has 7 kids, and I'm assuming she doesn't use birth control. My very serious CAtholic sister-in-law who teacher at a Catholic school finally went on birth control after 4 boys in 7 years and an out-of-work husband.

 

I, too, imagine that the "good catholics" have to be a small percentage of the church. My husband is still in the rolls, though he's an atheist.

 

I think it's "what are the deal breakers", when it comes down to it.

[whitestavern]

Thank you so much for posting this. I have this conversation with my dh on a regular basis. He disagrees with a couple of beliefs (minor) in our denomination and thinks it's no problem to show up each week. However, I disagree with many things and don't think it's right that I'm going. I feel like a hypocrite walking in every week. At this point I'm doing it for him and our dc. He doesn't seem to have a problem with me going when I have so many issues with the church doctrine. Is it worse to go for "show" or not go at all? My dc are still fairly young and I'm not sure I'm ready to have that conversation with them yet. Will be :bigear:.

[HRAAB]

I know tons of practicing Catholics. My husband's family (he's one of 9 siblings) is Catholic, and I've got scads of Catholic friends. All of the married females are on birth control. I know only one friend, a Vatican I Catholic, who has 7 kids, and I'm assuming she doesn't use birth control. My very serious CAtholic sister-in-law who teacher at a Catholic school finally went on birth control after 4 boys in 7 years and an out-of-work husband.

 

I, too, imagine that the "good catholics" have to be a small percentage of the church. My husband is still in the rolls, though he's an atheist.

 

I think it's "what are the deal breakers", when it comes down to it.

 

What is a Vatican I Catholic? The First Vatican Council was in the 1860's.

[Matryoshka]

1. I figure that it's those who care deeply who find themselves in this position. (Not that those who agree 100% w/ their faith don't care, just that those who don't agree aren't just being difficult or flippant.)

 

2. So you search for one you do agree w/ 100%. You get excited & disappointed a lot. Maybe you change your mind on some things, but still don't find 100%.

 

3.

Option A: Give up. Become an atheist, a non-practicing Christian, or something else like that.

 

Option B: Start your own thing. Home church, non-denominational, etc. Leave when you no longer agree.

 

Option C: Compromise. Accept that 100% agreement may not happen. Do the best you can w/ the agreement you've got. Be open to having your heart/mind changed, but don't force it.

 

Option D: See if you can get brainwashed by the denomination of your choice so that the details never bother you again. ;)

 

Option E: Join a denomination without a creed, so it isn't an issue. :tongue_smilie: (The United Church of Christ, for example, does not have a creed to adhere to. There are probably others, but I know that one for sure). You would have to accept that the rest of congregation will have a variety of beliefs. ;)

[milovany]

For us, it came down to asking ourselves, "Do we trust ourselves to figure all this out on our own? And is this really what we're supposed to do with our life -- move from issue to issue, trying to decide what's right and what's wrong? Or can we trust the Church that Christ instituted that has already figured all that out? And can we move on, now, to really living a life of faith and worship?"

 

As we found answers to these questions, we chose to trust the Church (we're Eastern Orthodox), which is Christ's body. That which we don't understand, or agree with, is worked out with our priest. It doesn't keep us from God, it's a point of humble conversation. And now we live worship and faith instead of just talking about it and hoping for it.

 

[i'm speaking to our situation, by the way, not to anyone else's and not to any generality.]

[redsquirrel]

Well, my dear friend is a devoted catholic and from what I can see, her faith is full of discussion about these issues. She has all kinds of books titled things like "How to be a good catholic and disagree" and things like that. She is part of prayer groups and faith discussion groups and there is lots of discussion and support for different views.

 

My neighbors across the street are very involved with the Catholic Workers.

 

Seems to me that the Catholic church has a very long and rich tradition. That means lots of people with claim to the faith have joined in the discussion.

 

Now, with all that said, I can't be a part of any faith or organization that requires me to leave part of myself behind. I like to bring all of me where ever I go. I have found the UU church to be a very welcoming home.

[TravelingChris]

I don't join churches that have a fundamental difference in beliefs. I go by each churches' doctrinal statement. None of the churches I joined had anything I disagreed with and fundamentally, they all seemed to agree on these statements too- even though they are different denominations. Now the main denomination may have things I disagree with but usually those are issues that are not relevant to my attendance in a particular church. So none of the churches ever asked about old/new earth and in each of them, there were people who were on both sides of that issue and many in-between (old earth, somewhat newer humans- there are many variations of this). So my church preaches against sex without marriage. What some other church in the denomination preaches, I don;t know. It is one big reason I choose churches by the local branch, not a denominational label.

 

I have been a member or attender of six denominations -my kids grew up with basically the same theological lessons taught. Oh, and I am not one who minds different groups.

[milovany]

I can't be a part of any faith or organization that requires me to leave part of myself behind. I like to bring all of me where ever I go.

 

I so agree with this. Well, except for the mean, selfish, thoughtless, unloving, untempered part of me. That I would like to leave behind (with a hearty agreement from those around me, LOL). I have found the tools to get healed in this way within Orthodoxy. I had a hard time finding this healing in the other faith traditions I was a part of, because they were all focused on externals. This one is healing my heart of icky things.

 

ETA: By the way, I wasn't speaking of the Catholic church. I can't speak to or for it as we're not Catholic.

Edited October 11, 2011 by milovaný

[Cheryl in NM]

I think religion is like every other area of our human lives; there is no perfect fit. Like a pp said: there are things that are non-negotiable for me. There are also things that I don't live by. The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod teaches that women can't teach spiritual matters (of course the Sunday school teachers are all women so I don't think even THEY reconcile beliefs and practice well); women are not allowed to be elders in the church, the president of the congregation or pastors. I know the Bible verse where they get that from, but Jesus and God have used women to spread the word throughout the Bible as well as throughout the ages. Since I don't feel a call to be a preacher I have no problem attending LCMS church even though I don't buy into that belief.

 

Religions are man-made. Jesus was not a religious denomination; he was a race: Jew. Your spiritual beliefs are between you and God. I don't live or die by my religion and I don't believe that MY religion is THE right religion. I don't think there IS a "right" religion. I know that there are religions that practice teaching in direct opposition to the Bible. So there ARE "wrong" religions.

 

Clear as mud? Just pray, listen to God and follow his guidance. Membership in church may not be a life-time commitment in your case.

[Ellie]

That might work except for the pesky fact that many Priests don't agree with Vatican policies on many of these issues either.

 

If all the American Catholics who have any divergent positions on birth control, divorce, homosexuality, a married priesthood, etc. walked out of the Roman Catholic Church I think you'd have a drastically smaller Church. And that includes Priests.

 

Bill

But you can't blame the priest for your own failure to know what the Church teaches and to do what is right.

 

And those aren't Vatican "policies."

[PeacefulChaos]

...when you don't agree with all the key tenets? I'd have to think that most people don't agree with every tenet of the denomination to which they belong. How do you go about accepting the inconsistency? I've wondered this since I was in Catholic school, when I became aware that my family members flat-out disagreed with some of the church teachings. Can you still be a "good Catholic," or a good "whatever" if you disagree on some of the important points? If you can't, then what do you do?

 

Again, thanks for your thoughts, and my apologies if I'm overstepping somehow.

 

You don't.

I wouldn't have joined my church (which isn't a denomination anyway) if I didn't agree wholeheartedly with our 16 tenets of faith.

[melissel]

Well, my dear friend is a devoted catholic and from what I can see, her faith is full of discussion about these issues. She has all kinds of books titled things like "How to be a good catholic and disagree" and things like that. She is part of prayer groups and faith discussion groups and there is lots of discussion and support for different views.

 

My neighbors across the street are very involved with the Catholic Workers.

 

Seems to me that the Catholic church has a very long and rich tradition. That means lots of people with claim to the faith have joined in the discussion.

 

Now, with all that said, I can't be a part of any faith or organization that requires me to leave part of myself behind. I like to bring all of me where ever I go. I have found the UU church to be a very welcoming home.

 

Redsquirrel, can you elaborate on your last comment here, or pm me about it? I'm not sure what you mean, but I'd like to hear more.

[PinkInTheBlue]

Option C: Compromise. Accept that 100% agreement may not happen. Do the best you can w/ the agreement you've got. Be open to having your heart/mind changed, but don't force

 

Option C would be the closest answer I could come to except too much of Being open to having your heart/mind changed". I've spent years thinking over the "mind changing" given to me by my old churches. The beliefs I've settled are 100% between me and God. I hope and plan to NEVER to influenced by the teachings of one person or organization again. If I could find a church that I agreed withenough then it would be with the understanding with myself that my beliefs are MINE and the discrepancies with those and the church are just not game changers. What I've come to believe about the nature of God won't likely change and if so not from outside of my relationship strictly between God.

 

Clear as mud? ;)

 

To answer the OP question, I don't expect to ever find an actual entire denomination I 100% agree with. However, I'd love to find a church or meeting group of some kind that I don't have deal-breaking disagreements with. I don't think 100% is necessary or I suspect lots of sheep present.

[Heather in Neverland]

Spine issues and rib issues....

 

The spine issues are the deal-breakers... The rib issues are ones you can agree to disagree on.

 

For instance, I am against abortion and could not be part of a denomination that is pro-abortion. It is a spine issue for me.

 

A rib issue for me would be the YE-OE debate but it might not be for someone else.

 

You have to decide which issues are spine issues and which are rib issues for you.

[Aubrey]

Spine issues and rib issues....

 

The spine issues are the deal-breakers... The rib issues are ones you can agree to disagree on.

 

For instance, I am against abortion and could not be part of a denomination that is pro-abortion. It is a spine issue for me.

 

A rib issue for me would be the YE-OE debate but it might not be for someone else.

 

You have to decide which issues are spine issues and which are rib issues for you.

 

So what happens when your rib issue is a denom's spine issue?

[ElizaG]

What is a Vatican I Catholic? The First Vatican Council was in the 1860's.

:iagree:The whole Vatican I/Vatican II/whatever thing is a red herring.

 

There was some confusion about birth control in the 60's and 70's. Some priests and other Catholics assumed that the pill was okay, because there was a rumor going around that the pope was about to approve it. Then, when he actually reaffirmed the traditional Christian prohibition on contraception, others (including the Canadian bishops' conference) began suggesting that it was okay to use it anyway, based on an erroneous notion of what it means to "follow your conscience."

 

I think this has been more than amply clarified since then. In particular, the 1993 Catechism makes it clear that Catholics have to follow the Church's teaching authority in informing their consciences; see esp. par 1785 & 1792. Unfortunately, many of the lay people and priests who were educated in the previous few decades aren't willing to admit this, and their mistaken reasoning about birth control has since been used to justify all manner of dissent. But this has never been the Catholic position, and the Second Vatican Council did nothing to change that. If anything, it's the "do your own thing" folks who are are stuck in the mindset of a particular historical hiccup.

 

(In 2008, on the 40th anniversary of their original statement, the Canadian bishops released a pastoral letter giving full support to the official teachings on birth control. Things move glacially slowly in the Church at times, but given all the stuff that's happened in 2000 years of history, it makes sense to take the long view.)

Edited October 11, 2011 by Eleanor

[Ipsey]

What is a Vatican I Catholic? The First Vatican Council was in the 1860's.

 

A "Vatican I" Catholic is what one becomes when typing too fast and the second "I" is lost.

 

She's Vatican II. ;)

 

ETA: These women (my Catholic friends/family on birth control) all know that their church disapproves of birth control. They just don't agree. It's not that they're ignorant, they just don't believe in the church's stance.

Edited October 11, 2011 by Ipsey

[Scuff]

No church is perfect and just as I do not agree with any one person 100%, nor do I agree with any church 100%. I would not attend a church I disagreed with on major doctrinal issues. But I will overlook grey areas.

[ElizaG]

ETA: These women (my Catholic friends/family on birth control) all know that their church disapproves of birth control. They just don't agree. It's not that they're ignorant, they just don't believe in the church's stance.

I don't think many practicing Catholics are confused about whether or not the Church approves of birth control. That's been a clear part of moral teachings throughout our history, and it's been reaffirmed many times in recent decades.

 

The confusion is that, since the 1960's, many people think that they can choose not to "believe in the church's stance" on such a firm and consistent teaching, but still consider themselves faithful Catholics in good standing. This relates directly to the OP's question.

 

When John Paul II met with the US Bishops in 1987, he was well aware of this issue, and made a point of clarifying it.

 

It is sometimes reported that a large number of Catholics today do not adhere to the teaching of the Church on a number of questions, notably sexual and conjugal morality, divorce and remarriage. (...) It has also been noted that there is a tendency on the part of some Catholics to be selective in their adherence to the Church’s moral teachings. It is sometimes claimed that dissent from the Magisterium is totally compatible with being a "good Catholic" and poses no obstacle to the reception of the sacraments. This is a grave error that challenges the teaching office of the bishops of the United States and elsewhere.

[JenniferB]

I started to write my own story, but it became a book. So, I will briefly say that for me "religion" is about uniting with God. You know when Jesus prays that we would all be one just as the Father and the Son are one, "as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us." This verse also means a lot to me when it comes to my ability to unite with God: Jesus said, "They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick." This is me, sick. I confess, I spent 35-ish years as a Christian, but I didn't begin to understand this little important verse until recently. Back in December I became so confused about what it really means to be a Christian, and I was almost to the point where I didn't know what kind, if any kind of Christian I could call myself honestly. This confusion and feeling of being utterly dried up as a Christian led me to post a question on this board about being a post-evangelical. Now I realize that was a poor term to say, post-evangelical, but at the time I almost felt like a post-Christian. But, I was not about to deny Christ, so I couldn't term myself as a post-Christian. So, post-evangelical is the only term I could figure explained my experience. It's like I was done with modern Christianity as I knew it. Some kind people posted in that thread, and it helped me to find my way. I found myself inquiring into the ancient Eastern Orthodox Church. Now that I am on this path of Eastern Orthodox Christianity I have to constantly re-calibrate my thinking about many topics. It's not that I'm giving up my true self to align to the Church, but I'm actually finding my true self in the Church. There have been so many ah-ha moments and also uncomfortable re-adjustments in my thinking, but they have all been leading toward something way beyond myself. I believe it to be a union with the One True God.

 

So, maybe this doesn't really answer your question, exactly. I choose to look at it another way and see that there is a place of healing, a hospital so to speak for the soul. If I enter in there, I may not agree with everything, but I hope to find the union and the healing that I desire. I know that my opinions about things will change, and that's OK. The Church will still be there through my ups and downs and changes of opinion, and I believe it will be there with the tools necessary for the healing of my soul.

[HRAAB]

Just as I don't believe salvation is a singular event, but a long (lifetime) process, I believe being a member of a church is a process. It doesn't happen all at once. At least for me, but then I'm a slow, stubborn learner. If I had walked out every time I doubted something, I would have missed out on so much. If God can be patient with us, we need to learn to be patient with ourselves. And maybe admit - for me anyway - that I never will understand everything.

[Dmmetler]

As my mother is fond of saying "There is no church of the Holy Grail"-that is, there will be areas where you disagree with ANY church of any denomination.

 

In my case, I'm generally comfortable in LCMS with one area of dissent, and that's that I do believe that women can be called to ministry. I've known several women who have been-including one who had to leave the denomination she'd been raised in because the church that had nurtured her and raised her didn't acknowledge that she could feel that God had called her to teach and lead. And while I am not called to preach or lead, as the mother of a daughter, I had to wrestle whether I wanted to raise her in a church that might possibly place her in the state my friend was in. I talked to multiple pastors and multiple women in the LCMS church, as well as female pastors in other denominations.

 

Finally, I decided that it was better to raise my DD in a church in which I fundamentally agreed with, and decided that if God wanted to call her to ministry, he would find a way that she could do so. Furthermore, since her Godmother is an ordained Methodist Pastor, it's not like she'll lack for role models if that's the direction she is called.

[Avila]

Hm, maybe I don't mean the key tenets. Maybe I mean important elements? I'm thinking along the lines of homosexuality or birth control or abortion or things like that. If you don't believe that homosexuality is wrong, for example, but the denomination you are drawn to or belong to does, how do you reconcile your believing differently?

 

Well, at this point, I don't. But I don't see it as a one-time thing where I have to have all the answers upfront.

 

I also made the decision a long time ago that I do not have to have all the answers. I mean, I could spend the rest of my life studying and researching and praying and still not have it all figured out. Greater minds than mine have gone crazy trying. ;). For my own personal journey, it ended up an issue of authority -- who has it and who doesn't. I don't have that authority. But I find I don't need it. I can relax and trust who I believe Jesus left with his ministry and his authority to guide me and help me to understand the many, many things that my little brain does not comprehend. Sometimes, that has been something that takes a few minutes. Sometimes it takes years. I may never have it all settled, but like Paul says, I am working out my salvation with fear and trembling. And I believe there is truth and there are answers even when it isn't intuitive to me. I guess that is where the faith part comes in for me.

[8circles]

No, I don't know many. I live on the East Coast, where the country was founded and puritanism reigns supreme. I knew few Catholics and I know no ex-Catholics. But I've got 30+ years of being a Protestant , so there's some experience. You don't have to start your own 'denomination' you can leave and bring followers with you and set up shop. Taa da. Yes, been there, done that, got the tee shirt, three times. I don't know why you refuse to understand my experience is personal, not just trotted out to insult you.

 

Well, in the time that it took me to put a load of laundry in the dryer you've edited your response to me. I didn't have a knee-jerk response to any particular word. I didn't take offense at anything you said - I'm not sure where that came from. Your response prompted a question so I posted it. If you don't consider it a significant question then so be it. I have never made any comment about your personal experience nor have I ever doubted it.

 

I don't happen to see much difference in Protestants vs Catholics who have doctrinal differences. They both tend to gravitate to others with like-minds because they're human. You are free to disagree. No offense taken or intended.

[justamouse]

Purely anecdotal, but I have two cousins in the same town of 30,000 people who could not find a denomination they liked and who both in the last two years started their own separate nondenominational churches and declared themselves ministers. So it does happen.

 

I lived through three church splits.

 

It was heartbreaking-I mean, people's lives were ruined (at the time). All the dissenters went off and started their own churches, declaring themselves ministers. Two went off in my last church but those didn't cause splits--and then the youth pastor quietly left, moved, and started his own church.

 

So, actually 6 times all together in my own experience. So, I'm really happy to be under one squabbling tent (I say that tongue in cheek). Here comes everybody. I like that.

[8circles]

Yes I edited --rightly so, no? And I answered, so I'm not dismissing you.

 

I'm sure there are many Protestants who stay within their church and who disagree, but there are 33,000 Protestant denominations. That makes me think they are also going off and starting different churches. That tells me they have doctrinal differences. How else would you explain it? I'm not being snarky, I ask that honestly.

 

I'm not sure what to explain? People have doctrinal differences both within & without their own church/denomination. As far as I know that is a fact that applies to human beings no matter which church or denomination they are affiliated with. Some people stop attending church altogether, some find congregations (same or different denominations) that are more in line with their beliefs, some just continue plugging away right where they are. ALL people do this, no?

[justamouse]

I'm not sure what to explain? People have doctrinal differences both within & without their own church/denomination. As far as I know that is a fact that applies to human beings no matter which church or denomination they are affiliated with. Some people stop attending church altogether, some find congregations (same or different denominations) that are more in line with their beliefs, some just continue plugging away right where they are. ALL people do this, no?

 

True, yes. But the difference is that there's struggle-going off and setting up shop-and struggle, wherein you're willing to still be associated with that group. There's 77.7 million Catholics in the US, as of this year. That's a lot of personalities that still choose to walk out their journey under the Vatican.

[simka2]

Sometimes I think every non-denominational church is it's own denomination. I wonder how big the numbers would be if that were so? ;)

[Parker Martin]

I don't think you should join a denomination if you cannot honestly sign or assent to its articles of faith.

 

Incidentally, this is why we joined a non-denominational church. The list of essentials to which a member must assent is extremely short. In all other matters, there is freedom. We figure that this way, we're not closed off from our Christian brothers and sisters who we might disagree with on specific points of doctrine, and we won't have to leave the church if we change our minds on any such specific points.

[justamouse]

Sometimes I think every non-denominational church is it's own denomination. I wonder how big the numbers would be if that were so? ;)

 

Yikes, I can't even fathom.

[twoforjoy]

I don't think you should join a denomination if you cannot honestly sign or assent to its articles of faith.

 

That's a lot easier, though, when your church as a SoF that can fit on a single sheet of paper than when the catechism that contains your church's teachings is over 800 pages long.

 

I don't know, I guess I don't see why disagreement is such a big problem. (Which is ironic, given that the reason I'm an Episcopalian rather than a Catholic is that I'm still not quite sure I can in good faith return to the RCC, because of my stance on certain issues.) To me, if somebody wants to be a part of a denomination so much that they are willing to join even though they have things they disagree with it on, that just shows that they must really have strong feelings of connection to and affection for that denomination.

Edited October 12, 2011 by twoforjoy