A doctor took my 8 year olds in a room alone for a "talking"

[TranquilMind]

I wouldn't go back to the practice myself. It's this kind of thing that made me choose an old-fashioned family practitioner. I never had to worry about weird interpretations, secret talks, lectures when my sons cut themselves with penknives, etc. etc.

 

Yes, the only way to go these days, imo, is with an old-fashioned family doc, preferably one who has both common sense and vast, up-to-date knowledge. I have one of these gems, but they are rare.

[mommymilkies]

:iagree: This is a doctor's visit. The doctor is supposed to examine the body and the genital area is part of the body. It is just science - nothing sexual. Sure there are some doctors that abuse, but that is not the norm. If my child had a strong emotional reaction to a doctor's examination of his private area I might wonder why.

 

I disagree. I have always told my children that nobody at all is allowed to see or touch their private parts unless they expressly agree to it for medical reasons. I am not teaching my children that anyone has unfettered access to see their parts against their wishes. Especially at 8 years old. 4 years old, I could see. 8 years old is getting into pre-adolescence and they are becoming conscious of privacy and personal space. I would have freaked at that age, too.

[kalanamak]

I personally would be grateful to a person in in authority if they talked to my child and set them straight about what is acceptable.

 

 

:iagree: Plus, I would certainly trust my son alone with his pediatrician. ;)

(Inside joke: his wife is a member of the Hive.)

[TranquilMind]

And I don't want the village raising my dc, but I do want to be able to safely seek medical care, dental care, or whatever else my family might need without fearing that Big Brother is going to play CYA in case someone might say or do something.

 

This is a very big risk today. Your kid could say something completely benign to him, but equivocal to someone else and the next thing you know, CPS is all over you, taking away the child.

 

Heck, it isn't even new. 30 years ago, my younger sister, who was chronically ill and in the hospital all the time, made the mistake of venting with me, saying something like, "It would be easier if I were already dead. It would be easier than going through all this crap all the time." I KNEW her; she didn't mean a thing except grumbling because she felt horrible ALL THE TIME.

 

Well, unfortunately, some nurse overheard her, reported her as "suicidal" based on her vast, personal knowledge, I guess, and had a doc sign off on slapping her into the heavy duty, lockdown mental ward, where people were literally screaming and banging their heads against a wall. She was there for 3 days and my Mom was threatened by the hospital with refusal to continue dialysis if Mom signed her out of the nuthouse. So she was forced to leave her there or let her die. I wish I'd been older and had the law degree then.

 

She was traumatized by that, being perfectly mentally FINE, and had nightmares the rest of her life.

 

I wanted to beat their heads in for what they did to her. And they do this stuff today still, under the guise of "helping".

[TranquilMind]

I disagree. I have always told my children that nobody at all is allowed to see or touch their private parts unless they expressly agree to it for medical reasons. I am not teaching my children that anyone has unfettered access to see their parts against their wishes. Especially at 8 years old. 4 years old, I could see. 8 years old is getting into pre-adolescence and they are becoming conscious of privacy and personal space. I would have freaked at that age, too.

Me too. I probably would have had to be restrained if someone touched me in those days. It just wasn't done, without a specific reason, like injury.

[unsinkable]

Please go easy on me if you don't agree. I'm still pretty stunned and sad.

 

 

Thanks for listening. I'm a warm, loving mom and my boys are, for the most part, wonderful -- and this just came out of the blue.

 

Alley

 

Alley, were you expecting everyone to completely agree with you? For you to get angry because some of the posters have different takes on this situation is a little unrealistic. No one is being hateful to you, and no one is blindsiding you. You've been around this board long enough to realize that we collectively have a wide range of opinions and experiences.

 

I'm Not Alley, but based on the first line of her first post, I would say she wasn't expecting everyone to agree with her. She did ask people to "go easy on her."

 

Many, many posters have put that in their posts (go easy, be gentle, I'm fragile) and it's been respected.

[Rebecca VA]

But that was my point. I don't think anyone has been unkind to Alley. Disagreeing with someone doesn't mean you're being cruel to them.

[speedmom4]

I think likening a medical exam with sexual molestation is a severe over-reaction to make a point. It is emotional manipulation and I wish people wouldn't do it.

 

 

 

I don't understand what the big deal is about having a doctor examine a child's private area. Every well check up my children have ever had included a peek "down there". It's part of their body and needs to be seen just like their tonsils. It's a great example of "good touch" vs. "bad touch". We don't want our children confused and thinking having a doctor examine them is bad.

 

Elise in NC

[Unicorn.]

I get it :001_smile: I was one who said that based on the OP the son could have a problem, especially if this type of reaction was a recurring theme. I'm willing (and happy) to be wrong about that. But that was my honest initial reaction and I thought it was important to say because there is always the possibility that the one closest to the situation has the toughest time seeing. KWIM?

 

I see your point too, :001_smile: I just felt bad for the OP and wanted her to know that her kid isn't a crazy psychopath. :lol: I actually have a dd that started saying that to me on a daily basis at age 4. I used to tell her "I know, but I love you anyway", and she would cry and tell me she was sorry. Turns out she has a sleep disorder which caused anger similar to ODD. Now that it is under control, she is a lovely, albeit normal teenager.

[Embassy]

I disagree. I have always told my children that nobody at all is allowed to see or touch their private parts unless they expressly agree to it for medical reasons. I am not teaching my children that anyone has unfettered access to see their parts against their wishes. Especially at 8 years old. 4 years old, I could see. 8 years old is getting into pre-adolescence and they are becoming conscious of privacy and personal space. I would have freaked at that age, too.

 

I don't teach my children that anyone has unfettered access either. But we aren't talking about unfettered access. We are talking about a physical check-up by a medical professional. I consider that a medical reason.

[kalanamak]

I don't understand what the big deal is about having a doctor examine a child's private area.

 

 

:iagree: and I would work very hard to not have my child "freak" over such a thing. Making such areas a powder-keg taboo is asking for trouble, IMO.

 

(I'm not saying the OP wants her child to have that reaction, just that if it happened, I would work with the child to de-escalate the adrenaline surge this caused.)

[WishboneDawn]

[see below]

 

In passing, we always have had male pediatrician for our sons, and female for our daughter. This removes the "embarrassment factor" for the children.

 

To the bits I couldn't quote...

 

:001_smile:

 

I think you're bang on.

[WishboneDawn]

But that was my point. I don't think anyone has been unkind to Alley. Disagreeing with someone doesn't mean you're being cruel to them.

 

:iagree:

 

I mentioned this in another thread but it's why I come here. The folks here are willing to disagree and challenge me when I need it.

[unsinkable]

But that was my point. I don't think anyone has been unkind to Alley. Disagreeing with someone doesn't mean you're being cruel to them.

 

Maybe I missed some posts but I didn't read any where Alley was angry or complaining that people were being cruel to her.

 

:confused:

 

And it's all in the way things are phrased/worded. If someone says she is feeling sad and wants people to take it easy, then you can be kind in your disagreement...or at least cushion it with gentler words.

[Jen in PA]

I don't teach my children that anyone has unfettered access either. But we aren't talking about unfettered access. We are talking about a physical check-up by a medical professional. I consider that a medical reason.

 

:iagree: I always warn my dc that a doctor or nurse may need to see private areas or give a shot -- the two things I figure would cause even more anxiety if they occurred without warning. I know that by age 8 pediatricians are screening girls for signs of early puberty, not sure about when they start looking more carefully at boys. And while I think it is not uncommon for a scared or upset child to use the word "hate," I think it is unusual enough in such a public setting that it merited looking into. I am not sure why the doc thought this was best done without a parent present, though -- both things could certainly be done while mom was still in the room.

[mommaduck]

I disagree. I have always told my children that nobody at all is allowed to see or touch their private parts unless they expressly agree to it for medical reasons. I am not teaching my children that anyone has unfettered access to see their parts against their wishes. Especially at 8 years old. 4 years old, I could see. 8 years old is getting into pre-adolescence and they are becoming conscious of privacy and personal space. I would have freaked at that age, too.

:iagree: We've never had a dr check there unless there was a specific reason we had mentioned to the dr.

[unsinkable]

:iagree:

 

I mentioned this in another thread but it's why I come here. The folks here are willing to disagree and challenge me when I need it.

 

Alley asked people to take it easy on her if they didn't agree.

 

I don't think that's too much to ask.

[MariannNOVA]

I would find a new doctor and a new practice. i would not darken their door again.

 

i think the doctor acted presumptively.

 

:grouphug:

[bzymom]

The exam would not bother me. As far as the reaction of the staff to your son's remark, I have mixed feelings.

 

I would have no issue with the doctor calling one of mine out if he or she were disrespectful to me or to anyone else. I would, though, take issue with any doctor attempting to send ME to the waiting room so they could speak to my children privately unless there were some extraordinary circumstances. I simply would not go.

 

I'm sorry it was such an upsetting experience. How does your son feel about the whole appointment? Is he upset?

[MariannNOVA]

Okay, I have only read two pages of replies, but I have to say what I find most shocking is the fact that so many replies think that what that doc did was in any way okay!

 

Yes, other people in my life may tell me my child has an anger management problem. That is, any person who has a developed relationship with my family. Not a one-shot Sally with an authority complex.

 

And a nekkid exam on an EIGHT YEAR OLD without a parent present? No way!

 

I have run into these kinds of docs before. I move along to the next practice. OP, I suggest you do the same.

 

Until the Nanny State is in full control, I will fully exercise my parental rights AND responsibilities.

 

 

I've just started reading the pages of replies -- AuntieM:

 

I you! Totally agree.

 

Alley: :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: I hate parenting days like yours!:grouphug:

[Scarlett]

I've just started reading the pages of replies -- AuntieM:

 

I you! Totally agree.

 

Alley: :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: I hate parenting days like yours!:grouphug:

 

I couldn't even read past the first page.

 

I would never go back there ever again. My ds is 11 and I am still in the room with him. His 'private part' exam consist of dr. pulling the waiste band of ds's jeans out from his very flat belly and peeking in. LOL Kind of cracks me up. It is as if he is checking to see that there are indeed boy parts.

 

Alley: hugs from me too. Thank you for posting this....it has made me think how to respond if I am ever pressured by a doctor to leave my ds when I don't think I should.

[Ria]

. My ds is 11 and I am still in the room with him. His 'private part' exam consist of dr. pulling the waiste band of ds's jeans out from his very flat belly and peeking in. LOL Kind of cracks me up. It is as if he is checking to see that there are indeed boy parts.

 

Why isn't he checking for a hernia? That requires more than a look, and is part of good routine care, imo.

[Scarlett]

Why isn't he checking for a hernia? That requires more than a look, and is part of good routine care, imo.

 

How do they check for that? He does feel on ds's belly low down.

[MariannNOVA]

nm

Edited September 30, 2011 by MariannNOVA

[Denisemomof4]

So the way I read it: your son does have an anger problem and the doctor suggested that you see a counselor for it. She didn't report you or suggest that you medicate him. She just suggested that a counselor would be a good thing while your child is still young.

 

The second thing I read is that you seemed very passive through out. You didn't handle your son's anger but let the nurse handle it. You didn't ask to remain with your children but let them be taken into another room. I can't totally understand all the anger from you when you had been so passive. Also - what the doctor did was to try to uphold you as a mother, when she told your children to be more polite to you and to not malign you. I don't see anything anywhere in what you wrote about her suspecting you of abuse of any kind.

 

I'm reading through the replies now and I just want to say that sometimes I am SO dumbfounded that I, too, just don't react the way I should, or I fail to react at all. I can see this happening to the OP in this situation, because it sounds shocking to all of us, so it probably caused her not to respond. Kinda like a deer in the headlights type of thing.

 

But no matter how dumbfounded I may be, I don't think I'd be frozen enough to allow my kids to be walked behind doors and be spoken to outside my presence. That's NOT to put you down, OP, because I can understand being just so stunned that you just sit there with your eyes wide open and mouth hanging. For me, I'm a seasoned veteran. :glare: The social workers who helped with our adoption pulled our kids behind closed doors to interview them for the adoption, and my kids were SO uncomfortable because one planted thoughts into their heads that made them feel icky. 7 years later and I still think of it.

 

I feel bad because I think the OP was steamrolled and couldn't peel herself off the floor in a timely manner. :sad:

 

:grouphug:

[Denisemomof4]

Agree. And as far as the people who say they can't imagine their child saying that..I'm kind of shocked. I haven't met a kid yet who doesn't say stuff like that from time to time. There is no way I would have allowed the doc to talk to my 8 yr olds alone, and no way would I be going back to her.

 

Well three of my four kids have NEVER said it to my face (don't assume! dd8 has never said that!) but I'm not naive enough to think they don't voice it to each other or at least feel it.

 

I remember HATING my parents growing up at some point. It's normal.

[Old Dominion Heather]

I don't know. I can't imagine my 8 year old saying "I hate my mom" about anything. I think that is unusual for an 8 yo, so I can see the doctor exploring that a little more.

 

Haven't read the whole thread, but...

 

:iagree:Yeah, I can't imagine any of mine ever saying anything like that... You know your kid of course, but if one of mine said it, I would be concerned. If I hear one of my friend's kids say it, I'd be concerned...

 

Not that there is anything to be concerned about... I'm just saying that I don't think that the doctor's reaction was way out of line.

[Denisemomof4]

As part of the regular yearly well-child check, some pediatricians do a non-invasive, mostly visual check just to ensure that little boys' tes+icles have dropped. I would still be in the room, even for that. There are ways to allow personal privacy for the child w/o leaving them alone for this.

 

I don't think anyone here is speaking of a full gyn exam, or whatever the male version of that is.

 

they also check for pubic hair to see if puberty is starting. I know my boys got visual checks until a certain age, then it progressed to a more thorough exam.

[Denisemomof4]

I couldn't imagine it either -- although out of my two sons the one who did it is the more likely.

 

He's never done anything remotely like this before. Ever. Never. It seemed obvious to me afterwards that it was situational.

 

I'm looking for family practitioner. I had no idea some did and some didn't do private part checks.

 

Alley

 

I think my younger son said it to me as a teen but I can't remember. He'd spout off uncontrollably. Thank God I only have one kid like that.

 

For your son, I took it as pure humiliation so he struck out against the safest person. Oftentimes it's Mom. Those annual exams are so embarrassing for my girls that I've decided it's time for a family physician. And I won't allow them.

[Alice]

Copied from my post on the other thread on this topic:

 

For boys we are looking primarily for whether or not the testicles are descended and hernias. It's not uncommon (I'm guessing off the top of my head we have about one a year) where we find an undescended testicle in a boy where we previously recorded it as descended. This can be for a couple of reasons: the doctor messed up previously and the testicle was never there, the doctor felt a fat pad before instead of a real testicle, or a testicle which had been retractile but able to be brought into the scrotum is now fully in the canal. Testicles develop in the abdomen and descend into the scrotum. There are true undescended testicles, which means they never left the abdomen or canal. There are testicles that are retractile (spending most of the time in the canal but can be brought down into the scrotum) and then there are testicles in the normal position. The age of the boy also dictates what is normal. It's normal for a 5 year old to have retractile testicles it is not normal for a 14 year old. However, because sometimes the exam changes or another doctor has done it previously, I don't like to assume that "it's ok because it was ok last year".As a boy gets older, I can often just see by visual inspection if the testicles are in the scrotum.

 

We also check boys for hernias, which are very important to know about, especially in the case of sports. Finally, we check for masses, although that's much less common. In our practice we have had two kids diagnosed with serious illnesses during the exam of the inguinal area.

 

For girls, we check for labial adhesions in younger girls.

 

In both boys and girls we check for pubertal development. I once had a baby brought in at 4 months who had very elevated testosterone that we discovered because of abnormal genitalia size. More commonly we have older kids who are showing signs of early puberty (or delayed puberty).

 

Other points:

Sometimes older kids and teens have concerns about the genital area that they are not going to ask about and parents are not seeing. I've seen STDs and folliculitis and abcesses and acne. None were asked about when I asked if they had any concerns. I saw the issue and asked, the teens were then relieved to be able to address it.

 

I think examination of the genital area is important, just as I think examination of the rest of the body is important for a physical. I try and be sensitive to the kids (and parents). I try to explain what we are looking for and why it's important (in general age appropriate terms "I need to make sure your whole body is healthy".) Still, I know some kids who are very embarrassed or outright refuse. I would never force anyone and if they are really sensitive we just let them waive the exam. It is their right.

 

It wasn't clear to me in the original post that the doctor was doing the genital exam on the boy alone. What I read was that the boy was being walked to the bathroom to do a urine sample and was angry because he knew about the genital exam but not that the genital exam was about to take place in the bathroom. That would be very unusual, and I think inappropriate.

 

I completely agree that no exam on an 8 yr old should be done without a parent present, in particular a genital exam. And most docs have gotten away from doing routine samples as its not really recommended anymore.

 

I think the doc stepped over the line if she talked to the kids alone. I don't necessarily think it was out of line to talk to them about behavior. On occasion I have spoken to a patient about behavior if I feel that the behavior is disruptive or very inappropriate. However, I would do that in front of the parent.

 

Lastly, my usual advice when someone is very upset about something at a doctor's office is to call and ask to speak to the doctor. We weren't there, we don't know what happened. Even if you ultimately decide to not go back to this doctor sometimes it can be helpful to find out why they did what they did. Or at the very least you may educate the doctor on how you felt in the scenario.

[happypamama]

In the wake of the Dr. Earl Bradley sexual abuse case in Delaware, until my children are teenagers, they will not be parted from me for private examinations with medical professionals.

 

I'd say get a new doctor who is more sympathetic and supportive of you as a parent.

 

Yes, to all of that. And even as teens, my children will reserve the right to have me (or their father, if the boys would prefer that) in the room. Any doctor who will not allow me to be in the room if my children/teens want me there isn't a doctor who will treat them, period.

 

I do agree that sometimes someone outside of the family can have an impact that Mom or Dad might not have, so that wasn't necessarily out of line, and I can see why the doctor might have wanted to consider whether or not this was an example of an escalating issue. However, I think it was very inappropriate to send you out without them, especially since it was a new doctor. At least they were together.

[celticmom]

Okay, I have only read two pages of replies, but I have to say what I find most shocking is the fact that so many replies think that what that doc did was in any way okay!

 

Yes, other people in my life may tell me my child has an anger management problem. That is, any person who has a developed relationship with my family. Not a one-shot Sally with an authority complex.

 

And a nekkid exam on an EIGHT YEAR OLD without a parent present? No way!

 

I have run into these kinds of docs before. I move along to the next practice. OP, I suggest you do the same.

 

Until the Nanny State is in full control, I will fully exercise my parental rights AND responsibilities.

 

:iagree:

[BatmansWife]

Gosh....I wish I had time to read all the pages of replies; but I just don't.

 

I don't have too much of a problem with the doctor talking with the ds's about not talking like that about their mom (you). I think it was outta line to say he's gonna grow up and hurt you. I think she could have called the boys back in and talked to them with you there too. I take more issue with the fact that this well child visit had a urine test and private body check at age 8. What?! No.way. I would have refused. Seriously. I guess this is why I don't do well child checks anymore. You should have been in the room; you could have been sitting in a area where you didn't have to see....if that was an issue. I'm not sure if it's worse that the doc was a woman....I don't think it would have been better if it were a man though either. I can totally understand your son being upset about it.

 

ETA: as another poster commented....perhaps the op was in the room when the exam was being done; I may have misread that. I still stand by the rest of what I said though.

Edited September 30, 2011 by ~AprilMay~

[RanchGirl]

OP, I am not clear on whether you were present during the exam of your son? I would be upset, and in fact not allow, them to do an exam without me present or to take the child away to the bathroom to do the clean catch. I certainly would never allow a dr to send me away so he could chat with my 8 yr old without asking "why?!"

 

It sounds like you were overwhelmed, maybe from dealing with two kids' exams at once?

 

I don't know if you have a previous relationship with this pediatrician that you wish to save... If so, I would call and talk about your concerns. Specifically why the chat was needed, exactly what the nurse reported, etc. Maybe the nurse had real reason for concern? I would want to know more here. IMO, complaining angrily about you to strangers seems like an unusual reaction to the situation. When my boys were 8, they would also have been upset but i imagine they might start crying or cling to me instead.

 

In the end, there are probably plenty of pediatricians out there so keep looking for one you can trust and who trusts you to do the parenting. If she had just talked to you and asked your permission, maybe everything would have been fine.

 

And I honestly don't mean to offend you here and I saw that you didn't agree with the description of your actions as "meek"... I'm not sure if you were meek or overwhelmed or whatever. It's common to get flustered when dealing with authoritarian doctors so please don't consider this an insult. But whatever you call it, you allowed something to happen to your children that you didn't really want. (You didn't have to leave just because the doctor said to.) If you tend to get overwhelmed in these situations, find one that you trust to respect your wishes, or take the kids individually, or even consider bringing backup -- a strong willed friend or dh.

Edited September 30, 2011 by RanchGirl

[mommymilkies]

I don't teach my children that anyone has unfettered access either. But we aren't talking about unfettered access. We are talking about a physical check-up by a medical professional. I consider that a medical reason.

 

But there is no medical indication except to check for abuse without evidence otherwise and to check for possible other things in which there are no symptoms, presumably, since it is a physical. A child of age 8 should be allowed to tell someone no if they are not comfortable with that. My ds has had two surgeries "down there" and does have a medical indication, but only at this age if he is comfortable with the reason and comfortable and trusting of the doctor.

[NittanyJen]

In the wake of the Dr. Earl Bradley sexual abuse case in Delaware, until my children are teenagers, they will not be parted from me for private examinations with medical professionals.

 

I'd say get a new doctor who is more sympathetic and supportive of you as a parent.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

First time you see a doctor and the person sees your 8YO without you? No way, Jose! Next time, say no! It is your right!

[GingerPoppy]

I carefully re-read the original post. Nowhere in it do I get an indication that the "private" part of the exam was done without the mother present. The best that I can tell, that part was done with the mom in the room. Then, the boy was taken down the hall and given instructions on how to pee in a cup, which I think we can assume he did alone in the bathroom. Next, nurse tells doctor about what the boy said. Doctor speaks privately to mom for a bit, then takes the boy(s) privately (briefly, by the sounds of it) to encourage him to speak more kindly to mom.

 

Maybe my reading comprehension is sub-par at this time of night, but where are you all getting this idea that the boy's private areas were examined without a mom in the room?

 

Maybe the OP can clarify some of the confusing points.

***

 

I agree with PP who think sometimes the message coming from another adult in authority can hold a lot of weight.

 

I also agree that a brief, appropriate check of the private area by a doctor should not be turned into a weird, dirty thing. Yes, people (including kids) have the right to refuse. But I think it's healthier to talk them through it. It's just a body part, and it's just the doctor's job, and it sets a good precedent for future proactive health care.

[LibraryLover]

Copied from my post on the other thread on this topic:

 

For boys we are looking primarily for whether or not the testicles are descended and hernias. It's not uncommon (I'm guessing off the top of my head we have about one a year) where we find an undescended testicle in a boy where we previously recorded it as descended. This can be for a couple of reasons: the doctor messed up previously and the testicle was never there, the doctor felt a fat pad before instead of a real testicle, or a testicle which had been retractile but able to be brought into the scrotum is now fully in the canal. Testicles develop in the abdomen and descend into the scrotum. There are true undescended testicles, which means they never left the abdomen or canal. There are testicles that are retractile (spending most of the time in the canal but can be brought down into the scrotum) and then there are testicles in the normal position. The age of the boy also dictates what is normal. It's normal for a 5 year old to have retractile testicles it is not normal for a 14 year old. However, because sometimes the exam changes or another doctor has done it previously, I don't like to assume that "it's ok because it was ok last year".As a boy gets older, I can often just see by visual inspection if the testicles are in the scrotum.

 

We also check boys for hernias, which are very important to know about, especially in the case of sports. Finally, we check for masses, although that's much less common. In our practice we have had two kids diagnosed with serious illnesses during the exam of the inguinal area.

 

For girls, we check for labial adhesions in younger girls.

 

In both boys and girls we check for pubertal development. I once had a baby brought in at 4 months who had very elevated testosterone that we discovered because of abnormal genitalia size. More commonly we have older kids who are showing signs of early puberty (or delayed puberty).

 

Other points:

Sometimes older kids and teens have concerns about the genital area that they are not going to ask about and parents are not seeing. I've seen STDs and folliculitis and abcesses and acne. None were asked about when I asked if they had any concerns. I saw the issue and asked, the teens were then relieved to be able to address it.

 

I think examination of the genital area is important, just as I think examination of the rest of the body is important for a physical. I try and be sensitive to the kids (and parents). I try to explain what we are looking for and why it's important (in general age appropriate terms "I need to make sure your whole body is healthy".) Still, I know some kids who are very embarrassed or outright refuse. I would never force anyone and if they are really sensitive we just let them waive the exam. It is their right.

 

It wasn't clear to me in the original post that the doctor was doing the genital exam on the boy alone. What I read was that the boy was being walked to the bathroom to do a urine sample and was angry because he knew about the genital exam but not that the genital exam was about to take place in the bathroom. That would be very unusual, and I think inappropriate.

 

I completely agree that no exam on an 8 yr old should be done without a parent present, in particular a genital exam. And most docs have gotten away from doing routine samples as its not really recommended anymore.

 

I think the doc stepped over the line if she talked to the kids alone. I don't necessarily think it was out of line to talk to them about behavior. On occasion I have spoken to a patient about behavior if I feel that the behavior is disruptive or very inappropriate. However, I would do that in front of the parent.

 

Lastly, my usual advice when someone is very upset about something at a doctor's office is to call and ask to speak to the doctor. We weren't there, we don't know what happened. Even if you ultimately decide to not go back to this doctor sometimes it can be helpful to find out why they did what they did. Or at the very least you may educate the doctor on how you felt in the scenario.

 

 

Very helpful! Thank you. :)

[mommyrooch]

To me, the word hate is full of venom when directed at another human being. Hearing that come out of one my kids' mouths would be just as shocking as hearing them tell me to Go to H*ll or to F*ck off. It just isn't something that is tolerated. Ever. From the time they are toddlers. It's just not on the radar.

 

:iagree: My children are 13 and 10 and they have NEVER said anything like that. I can't even imagine my kids saying something like that to me, or anyone else for that matter. They're not perfect by any means but the word hate is just so.... cruel. I agree that around here, it would be akin so saying Go to H*ll or F off. I wouldn't tolerate that from my children any more that I would tolerate them physically hitting me or others.

[mommaduck]

they also check for pubic hair to see if puberty is starting. I know my boys got visual checks until a certain age, then it progressed to a more thorough exam.

I have to say that this was done to me in front of my mom and dad, by a male doctor, and it was humiliating. The young doctor wanted to determine which stage of puberty I was at (military family doctor, basically, they are still "learning"). Instead, he could have just asked my parents and myself questions. I will insist on questioning first.

[foxbridgeacademy]

I realize there are a lot of posts on this and mine will never be seen but.... I think you may have "under-reacted". 1st he's your child, if she thinks there's a problem mention it to you, I would never let her speak to my child alone! This is one of the main reasons I homeschool, I will not let someone else raise my child for me. Not for 1 minute. This doctor doesn't know you, she's not trained in child behavior, even if she was that's not what you are paying her for. As for the exam, I would have either convinced (subtly) my child(8 yrs old) to do the exam (with me there/near the entire time) or refused it until I could convince him to do it willingly. We tell them never to let anyone touch them there, but then drag them to the doctor and say here you go have at it. For the OP, you were shocked and overwhelmed by people who think they know best for you and your child, it's not your fault. You didn't over-react, but you now know better for next time.

[Guest submarines]

It is not doctors' job to parent children (especially those they don't even know!) behind the parents' backs. Sure, on the surface this tactic is probably "effective", but it can also be intimidating and shaming. I might be okay with someone I trust and with whose parenting outlook I mostly agree, to lecture my child (who is already stressed in an unfamiliar situation), but I'm certainly not okay with this being done by a STRANGER, just because that stranger happens to be in a position of authority.

 

The insinuations that the OP was passive and not proactive enough are rather harsh. It was a stressful situation for her and the children. Whenever I'm at a doctor's appointment with more than one child with me, I find it incredibly difficult to advocate for my children, as my attention is spread thin between child 1, child 2, child 3, a list of questions and the need to be thinking on my feet, evaluating information, and so on. I'm not very good at this. I admit that in a similar situation to the OP's I'd feel quite vulnerable and possibly intimidated. I'd like to think I woulldn't allow a doctor to talk to my child in private, but if the doctor was intimidating and forceful in his expressions, I might end up just like the OP, with my jaw on the floor...

 

I am also one of those who wouldn't be upset, shocked, or disturbed by my child saying he / she hated me. I often say I hate one thing or another--the rainy weather, the color of my kitchen cabinets... you name it. Sure, maybe a more precise way of saying it would be that I strongly dislike the ugly orange of my kitchen cabinets, but I allow myself to use a variety of dramatic expressions. DS told me he hated me once or twice, and I game him a hug, told him it was okay to feel this way sometimes, and that I loved him no matter what. In the absence of other issues, what's the big deal? He is a gentle, caring child. It is okay to have strong feelings. It is not okay to use hurtful words, but this is why little kids have parents--to guide them gently into expressing their strong feelings in appropriate ways.

 

Hugs to the OP...:grouphug: It was a difficult situation, and you did the best you could.

[akmommy]

I don't know. I can't imagine my 8 year old saying "I hate my mom" about anything. I think that is unusual for an 8 yo, so I can see the doctor exploring that a little more.

 

I think its completely normal. My DS went through a stage at 6-7 where anytime I was making him do something he didn't want to do he'd say things like that. Once I figured out that he was looking for a reaction and I quit giving it to him he quit saying it.

[cindergretta]

It is not doctors' job to parent children (especially those they don't even know!) behind the parents' backs. Sure, on the surface this tactic is probably "effective", but it can also be intimidating and shaming. I might be okay with someone I trust and with whose parenting outlook I mostly agree, to lecture my child (who is already stressed in an unfamiliar situation), but I'm certainly not okay with this being done by a STRANGER, just because that stranger happens to be in a position of authority.

 

The insinuations that the OP was passive and not proactive enough are rather harsh. It was a stressful situation for her and the children. Whenever I'm at a doctor's appointment with more than one child with me, I find it incredibly difficult to advocate for my children, as my attention is spread thin between child 1, child 2, child 3, a list of questions and the need to be thinking on my feet, evaluating information, and so on. I'm not very good at this. I admit that in a similar situation to the OP's I'd feel quite vulnerable and possibly intimidated. I'd like to think I woulldn't allow a doctor to talk to my child in private, but if the doctor was intimidating and forceful in his expressions, I might end up just like the OP, with my jaw on the floor...

 

I am also one of those who wouldn't be upset, shocked, or disturbed by my child saying he / she hated me. I often say I hate one thing or another--the rainy weather, the color of my kitchen cabinets... you name it. Sure, maybe a more precise way of saying it would be that I strongly dislike the ugly orange of my kitchen cabinets, but I allow myself to use a variety of dramatic expressions. DS told me he hated me once or twice, and I game him a hug, told him it was okay to feel this way sometimes, and that I loved him no matter what. In the absence of other issues, what's the big deal? He is a gentle, caring child. It is okay to have strong feelings. It is not okay to use hurtful words, but this is why little kids have parents--to guide them gently into expressing their strong feelings in appropriate ways.

 

Hugs to the OP...:grouphug: It was a difficult situation, and you did the best you could.

 

:iagree: 100%! You wrote my thoughts and feelings and beliefs spot on. I wanted to bold the parts I especially agreed with and realized I would have to bold the whole thing! :D

[Joanne]

{read first few pages, skimmed after that}

 

I find the entire sequence odd. I think it's odd (not normative/expected) that an 8 year old would share "I hate my mom" with a strange professional in the system that's pissed him off. I find it odd that a Dr. would read so much into the episode. I find it odd that the OP would expect "anyone could tell" why the 8 yo was so upset.

 

I think the reaction on the part of the 8 year old is extreme.

I think the reaction on the part of the Dr. is reasonable, but presumptuous. I mean if they think there IS a problem, it was handled ok. It's the jump to "there is a problem" that I find too much.

I also would not have left my boys for the rest of the exam.

[Guest submarines]

{read first few pages, skimmed after that}

 

I find the entire sequence odd. I think it's odd (not normative/expected) that an 8 year old would share "I hate my mom" with a strange professional in the system that's pissed him off. I find it odd that a Dr. would read so much into the episode. I find it odd that the OP would expect "anyone could tell" why the 8 yo was so upset.

 

I think the reaction on the part of the 8 year old is extreme.

I think the reaction on the part of the Dr. is reasonable, but presumptuous. I mean if they think there IS a problem, it was handled ok. It's the jump to "there is a problem" that I find too much.

I also would not have left my boys for the rest of the exam.

 

I've been reading your posts since I joined the forum, and I always find them reasonable, level headed and informative. I'm really surprised by a lot of statements in this one.

 

I guess I can see my DS (though he is a bit younger than the OP's child)mumble something like "I hate ...something...something..." and quite possibly "my mom" if it was me who brought him to the appointment and he was feeling pissed off. I don't find this reaction extreme at all. I find it rather mild, actually. I'd say this child was coping quite well.

 

I would also think it was odd for the medical professionals not to understand that seeing a new doctor is potentially stressful to a child. So I would "expect" or hope that reasonably experienced pediatrician would understand that most children are not chummy with him at their first appointment.

 

A reasonable reaction from the pediatrician would be to talk to the parent, not to the child alone. So in my books his reaction was both presumptions and unreasonable. I'm tired of mothers being treated like incompetent fools at best, and abusive at worst by medical professionals, who instead of realating to new patients and trying to learn more about them, see everything as a "symptom." I'm tired and sickened by this attitude.

 

I do agree with the rest of the post.

[OnTheBrink]

If it was a doc that had previously seen my kids and this anger was a new or escalating thing, I'd expect him to talk about it. But at a first visit, talking to you about it was enough. At that age my kids would have been upset at the surprise genital check and who knows how they would have reacted.

 

I'd be more concerned about what they talked about when you weren't there. You don't know this doc or the staff...who knows what they talked about?!

 

:iagree:

 

In the wake of the Dr. Earl Bradley sexual abuse case in Delaware, until my children are teenagers, they will not be parted from me for private examinations with medical professionals.

 

I'd say get a new doctor who is more sympathetic and supportive of you as a parent.

 

:iagree:

 

I honestly don't have a problem with the doctor telling a child that children should respect their mothers. But this could have been done with the mother present. I think sending the mother from the room, just to say that, undermines the mom more than saying nothing.

 

I would have assumed, however, that they first asked the kid why he "hated" his mother and then after ascertaining there was nothing to report, told the child to speak respectfully (lest the whole interview appear to be an encouragement to say nasty things about mom).

 

I guess without actually being in the room to hear what was said, it's hard to judge whether the doctor was appropriate or not. But I agree that moms don't have to leave their kids alone with the doctor if they don't want to.

 

:iagree:

 

Okay, I have only read two pages of replies, but I have to say what I find most shocking is the fact that so many replies think that what that doc did was in any way okay!

 

Yes, other people in my life may tell me my child has an anger management problem. That is, any person who has a developed relationship with my family. Not a one-shot Sally with an authority complex.

 

And a nekkid exam on an EIGHT YEAR OLD without a parent present? No way!

 

I have run into these kinds of docs before. I move along to the next practice. OP, I suggest you do the same.

 

Until the Nanny State is in full control, I will fully exercise my parental rights AND responsibilities.

 

:iagree::iagree:

 

My dd is very modest. VERY. There's no way she'd submit to a genital check willingly, and if it were sprung on her? HA! Ain't happening. As for the doctor speaking to the boy alone, that would irk me.

 

IMO, if you were new to this practice, they should have fully disclosed to you ahead of time what to expect on your first visit. Not every doctor does things the same way and I don't think it's an outrageous expectation to find out what a "well check" includes. I'd have asked, but again, my dd is very modest and she'd need some preparation that she might have to get nekkie. I'm not criticizing the OP, but when you make the appt with the next doctor, maybe you should ask them what to expect from a new patient visit. :grouphug:

[Barb_]

I think the reaction on the part of the 8 year old is extreme.

 

I guess I can see my DS (though he is a bit younger than the OP's child)mumble something like "I hate ...something...something..." and quite possibly "my mom" if it was me who brought him to the appointment and he was feeling pissed off. I don't find this reaction extreme at all. I find it rather mild, actually. I'd say this child was coping quite well.

 

From the OP:

 

Okay, so as my very strong willed son is realizing that he has to give a urine sample and a private part check is coming, he becomes irate. But he didn't do anything physical. He didn't yell. He was just mad.

 

He was very mad because he thought I'd lied to him. I honestly don't remember the drs. doing this every year. Yes, I should know by now.

 

Ds takes the cup and goes to the bathroom where the nurse explains what to do. I'm still in the exam room. He apparently tells the nurse, "I hate my mom." And something else inflammatory but I forget now.

...

 

Is this kid high spirited? Absolutely. Do I have a ton of books on managing high spirited kids. Yes, I do!

Edited September 30, 2011 by Barb F. PA in AZ

[blessedmom4god]

Agree. And as far as the people who say they can't imagine their child saying that..I'm kind of shocked. I haven't met a kid yet who doesn't say stuff like that from time to time. There is no way I would have allowed the doc to talk to my 8 yr olds alone, and no way would I be going back to her.

:iagree:

I remember my son saying this once to my husband after watching Nemo. Of course he got in trouble and so far we haven't had any of our other say it, but we are not in the teen years yet.:glare:

[asta]

Please go easy on me if you don't agree. I'm still pretty stunned and sad.

 

In a nutshell, we go to the pediatrician for a well child check. (A new dr. to us, we're in a new state). I haven't figured out that doctors these days do 1) a urine sample and 2) a private part check.

 

Okay, so as my very strong willed son is realizing that he has to give a urine sample and a private part check is coming, he becomes irate. But he didn't do anything physical. He didn't yell. He was just mad.

 

He was very mad because he thought I'd lied to him. I honestly don't remember the drs. doing this every year. Yes, I should know by now.

 

Ds takes the cup and goes to the bathroom where the nurse explains what to do. I'm still in the exam room. He apparently tells the nurse, "I hate my mom." And something else inflammatory but I forget now.

 

Did your son tell you that he thought you lied to him?

 

The nurse apparently relayed the info. to the dr. who doesn't say one word about it until the very end of the exam -- then sends my two sons out and "has a talk w/ me" about ds's anger problem, all that he said (I hate my mom. She gives me too much math etc.)

 

Math has nothing to do with a physical exam. What did the doctor actually relay that he said?

 

The uptight, not warm female dr. went on about how ds will hurt me when he's a large 16 year old and that maybe he needs to see a counselor.

 

My take: this "I hate my mom" was situational around the fact that his private area was going to be examined. Situational. He doesn't hate me -- in fact, we're close.

 

Again - did your son tell you this?

 

Is this kid high spirited? Absolutely. Do I have a ton of books on managing high spirited kids. Yes, I do!

 

So then she sends me to the waiting room and takes both 8 year old boys into the exam room and tell them stuff like, "you need to be more polite to your mom. If you're angry you don't say rude things." etc. etc.

 

I was sitting in the waiting room stunned that my kids were no longer with me.

 

I thought you were in the examining room (above).

 

I'm so angry. I get doctors are on the front line for exploring for child abuse, but clearly my kid isn't being abused.

 

Finally she brought the boys out, gave them a sucker and we left.

 

I want to explain to the doctors that they are not trained in family dynamics.

 

Actually, Pediatricians, and General Practitioners are.

 

That any idiot could see my kid was angry about the exam. Did he handle it correctly? Obviously not, but honestly, is he the first 8 year old not happy to have a private part exam??

 

That is your perception. I'm not saying it is necessarily an incorrect perception, but it is yours nonetheless. Unless we are in our children's heads, we don't know what they are angry about. Even if we ask them straight out, they may not always give us a straight answer -- no matter how good the relationship is.

 

Thanks for listening. I'm a warm, loving mom and my boys are, for the most part, wonderful -- and this just came out of the blue.

 

Alley

 

I'm sure you're a great mom.

 

When you have a moment to take a step back from the situation, consider that none of this may have anything at all to do with the medical exam other than your son feeling he had the opportunity to vent to someone "trustable".

 

 

a