Do you consider this a racial slur?

[Mom in High Heels]

I hesitate to ask this, but I'm curious.

 

Do you consider the term "tar baby" a racial slur? I have only ever heard of in the context of something being a sticky situation that you don't want to get involved with, but we were watching something the other night and some politician or other said it (in ref to a sticky situation) and everyone was saying this was a racial slur.

 

We live in stairwell housing (military) and two of my neighbors (in separate apartments) were going at each other all the time. It got to the point where I didn't want to go up and down the stairs for fear of being cornered by one of them so they could talk bad about the other. My downstairs neighbor (not one of the ones fighting) saw me literally running down the stairs one day to get to my car and asked me what was going on. I looked around, hesitantly, and she asked me to come in (she could tell I didn't want to talk in the hall). I told her I was trying to avoid neighbor A and B and she laughed and said "Yeah, that's like fighting a tar baby. You don't want to get your hands in that mess because you'll only get stuck." We laughed, had a nice chat and then I dashed out to my car. It never occurred to me that this was thought of as a racial slur. The neighbor who used it was (is, really, but they've moved :( ) one of the kindest most generous people I've ever met. She's the kind of neighbor everyone loves to have and the kind of neighbor everyone should aspire to be. I can't think she possibly meant this as a racial slur.

 

ETA: I should have clarified the last sentence above. What I meant was it never occurred to me that she was using this as a racial slur as I had never heard it as a racial slur before and immediately thought of the Br'er Rabbit story. Also, I should mention that everyone involved (the neighbors who were fighting, the neighbor who said it and myself) are all white. If one of them were another race though, it still wouldn't have crossed my mind to see this as a racial slur.

 

So, yes or no?

Edited August 30, 2011 by Mom in High Heels

[Bang!Zoom!]

I think she meant it in a political sense.

 

I personally have no knowledge of the term being used other than political issues.

 

I'd have to google to inform myself-but it may also be directly related to geographic regions or other exposures.

 

I don't think I want to google to figure out what the other references are. Don't want that brain cell today.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I think in the context it isn't meant to be a racial slur but because of history it shouldn't be used anyway. There are other words or phrases to mean "a sticky situation".

[bbkaren]

Would have loved to discuss, but learned my lesson.

[Spy Car]

No.

 

I suppose an ignorant person could (misguidedly) use the expression in a racist fashion, but (in the ordinary understanding of the expression) is has nothing to do with racism.

 

Bill

[SKL]

Well, in my limited experience, it is a racial slur. There may be some perfectly legitimate usage that I'm not aware of, but I've never personally heard it used or discussed outside the racism context.

 

Then again, the person who told me about it was my mom, decades ago, based on her experience from still more decades ago. I could see where it could be a regional thing or something that some generations just never encountered.

[Denise in Florida]

I voted other because it is both. :glare:

 

I first heard it as a reference to the Uncle Remus story and it was used to indicate a situation you get into and can't get out of. I heard it every now and then when I was a child (American Southwest) and it never seemed like a racial insult, always just a allusion to the story.

 

After moving to the American South I have heard it as a racial insult. In fact, some of the folks I have heard use it don't seem the type to understand a literary allusion in the first place. :glare:

 

I love the concept from the story and wish the term was usable but it really isn't.

 

I would take your neighbors statement at face value using what you know about her character.

[Denise in Florida]

No.

 

I suppose an ignorant person could (misguidedly) use the expression in a racist fashion, but (in the ordinary understanding of the expression) is has nothing to do with racism.

 

Bill

:iagree: I love the concept it refers to, but I would never use it because I would be afraid of being misunderstood. Particularly now that I live in the south.

[Dmmetler]

It's a literary allusion, but to a set of stories that are generally considered racially charged and inappropriate now, so it's best to avoid it-at least in my part of the country. At best, you'll come off sounding insensitive.

[kitten18]

I think in the context it isn't meant to be a racial slur but because of history it shouldn't be used anyway. There are other words or phrases to mean "a sticky situation".

:iagree:

[Denise in Florida]

It's a literary allusion, but to a set of stories that are generally considered racially charged and inappropriate now, so it's best to avoid it-at least in my part of the country. At best, you'll come off sounding insensitive.

 

Yes that is true. I do not use it for that reason. Yes, the stories use a setting and characters that are offensive to contemporary readers but some of the 'moral of the story' moments are universal. It is sad to lose them from common discussion.

Edited August 29, 2011 by Denise in Florida
lost last sentence - huh?

[twoxcell]

I chose other because I have never heard of it before.

[WishboneDawn]

I've only ever heard of it as a racial slur sort of thing.

 

Since there's another meaning I'd likely give another person the benefit of the doubt but I'd never use it myself.

[LucyStoner]

The roots of the term are racially charged because of offensive and racist original text. I would not choose to use it. Plenty of good alternatives that don't have the same connotations. No reason to risk it.

 

I think Mitt Romney apologized years ago for using it in reference to the war. Recently, some congressman apologized to Obama for using it.

 

Politically it it pretty charged and I don't think recognizing the different takes on the word makes anyone ignorant.

[Rivka]

It's a literary allusion, but to a set of stories that are generally considered racially charged and inappropriate now, so it's best to avoid it-at least in my part of the country. At best, you'll come off sounding insensitive.

 

:iagree:

[Denise in Florida]

The roots of the term are racially charged because of offensive and racist original text. I would not choose to use it. Plenty of good alternatives that don't have the same connotations. No reason to risk it.

 

I think Mitt Romney apologized years ago for using it in reference to the war. Recently, some congressman apologized to Obama for using it.

 

Politically it it pretty charged and I don't think recognizing the different takes on the word makes anyone ignorant.

 

I agree on the need to use another term. :001_smile:

 

In the interest of discussion what is another common children's moral tale that uses this lesson? What are one of the good alternatives. We are able to use chicken little, boy who called wolf and little red hen. What replaces this one?

[LucyStoner]

Here's a good recent article on this.

 

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2011/0803/What-were-two-Republicans-thinking-calling-Obama-tar-baby-and-boy

[elegantlion]

I would consider it a racial slur, as that is the only way I've heard it. It doesn't sound like what you're neighbor meant, but I would avoid use of the word.

[LucyStoner]

 

In the interest of discussion what is another common children's moral tale that uses this lesson? What are one of the good alternatives. We are able to use chicken little, boy who called wolf and little red hen. What replaces this one?

 

Quicksand (the more you struggle the worse it gets?)

 

I dunno. That's all I've got.

 

I have never felt the need to share this story with my kids.

[stripe]

It's a literary allusion, but to a set of stories that are generally considered racially charged and inappropriate now, so it's best to avoid it-at least in my part of the country. At best, you'll come off sounding insensitive.

 

Well, I own Lester and Pinkney's version of the Uncle Remus tales, and I like Brer Rabbit (not so much the fake dialect, which is why I own these). I think Brer Rabbit stories are a positive thing.

 

That being said, I've never actually heard anyone refer to a "tar baby."

[Denise in Florida]

Quicksand (the more you struggle the worse it gets?)

 

I dunno. That's all I've got.

 

I have never felt the need to share this story with my kids.

 

Quicksand is almost there but doesn't quite imply the 'impulse' to touch it in the first place. There are tons of clever people here, maybe they will think of something great.

 

I have a question about the bolded statment. Given that your kids are young it might not come up yet. How and when will you address culturally important but contemporarily awkward books? I am thinking Uncle Remus and Huckleberry Finn are common cultural literacy stories.

 

I can't remember now what I did when I read them to my girls (now 20 and 17) but I remember clearly reading Peter Pan to my older girl when she was in 3rd grade. Lovely British language and story, with delightful use of the word 'queer' for 'unusual' or 'odd'. Sweet child then went around saying 'how queer' or 'I feel a little queer today' :lol:. Oh yeah, we needed a discussion on how words grow and change.

[MSNative]

I have only ever heard it used by Chapel Hill grads. I know a few who have named dogs "Tar Baby" 'cause they are Tar Heels. I think they even have onesies with Tar baby on them and a big ol' footprint. I never thought of it as a racial slur or an expression other than that. Shows you can learn something new every day.

[lmrich]

I always thought that was North Carolina Tar heels called their babies... I never paused to think about it.

[edelweiss]

My girls love the Brer Rabbit Tar Baby story. I've never heard it as a racial slur.

[Spy Car]

The roots of the term are racially charged because of offensive and racist original text. I would not choose to use it. Plenty of good alternatives that don't have the same connotations. No reason to risk it.

 

I think Mitt Romney apologized years ago for using it in reference to the war. Recently, some congressman apologized to Obama for using it.

 

Politically it it pretty charged and I don't think recognizing the different takes on the word makes anyone ignorant.

 

Referring to an African American as a tar baby is racist.

 

The original Br'er Rabbitt (Uncle Remus) stories represent a very important part of our cultural heritage coming from West African and Native American roots. These are legitimate folk-tales that need to be preserved. That many were collected and popularized by Joel Chandler Harris, a "white" journalist who rendered the stories in (imperfectly) heavy "black dialect," does not make the stories "racist."

 

Joel Chandler Harris was, in fact, an an opponent of racism and a voice for racial reconciliation. If the dialect is a bit much, it was not rendered with an intent to lampoon or parody.

 

To lose these stories as part of out cultural heritage would be a shame.

 

Bill

Edited August 29, 2011 by Spy Car

[JeneralMom]

The one and only time I have ever heard the expression used IRL was in the racial slur context, so that is what I associate it with.

 

Logically, I know it is not and that the Uncle Remus stories are important, but having heard it first (and only) used in the other way my gut reaction is to think of it in a negative way.

[Crissy]

I voted other.

I hear it as a racial slur, but I also realize that it is probably because that is the only way my grandmother ever used the phrase. I can see that it may not be used that way by others.

[stripe]

Joel Chandler Harris was, in fact, an an opponent of racism and a voice for racial reconciliation. If the dialect is a bit much, it was not rendered with an intent to lampoon or parody.

 

To lose these stories as part of out cultural heritage would be a shame.

That's why I prefer to dodge the issue with the version I've got. I just can't do the heavy fakey dialect. It makes my skin crawl. I like Pinkney's illustrations anyhow.

 

I associate Tar Babies with a licorice candy,too, but I'm not sure if I've ever actually seen it or just heard about it.

 

....And there's the story by Toni Morrison, anyway. One should know the reference.

 

Does anyone here use Brer Rabbit molasses?

[mytwomonkeys]

i don't think of it as a racial slur, but often words lose their original meaning over time & can take on a new implication (or simply have multiple definitions). i know my grandmother and the ladies at her church always made welsh faggots (she lived in PA in a very welsh area), but she would talk about them anywhere and everywhere, never understanding that it could be misconstrued as something else. oh my gosh, it was awkward. to her, it was only food, but everyone else around us probably heard something else.

[Slartibartfast]

I think it means, "a sticky situation" like in the Uncle Remus stories.

 

I am afraid racists have taken over the term and it isn't something I say, just to avoid any confusion.

 

I think Mitt Romney used the term correctly (who was just talking about that Big Dig project right?) but the Congressman compared working with Obama touching a tar baby which well...that is a bit of a quagmire.

Edited August 29, 2011 by Sis

[LaxMom]

No.

 

I suppose an ignorant person could (misguidedly) use the expression in a racist fashion, but (in the ordinary understanding of the expression) is has nothing to do with racism.

 

Bill

 

Yes. This.

 

(as in, no I don't consider it a slur but anyone can use pretty much anything as a slur if they try hard enough)

[Spy Car]

That's why I prefer to dodge the issue with the version I've got. I just can't do the heavy fakey dialect. It makes my skin crawl. I like Pinkney's illustrations anyhow.

 

I associate Tar Babies with a licorice candy,too, but I'm not sure if I've ever actually seen it or just heard about it.

 

....And there's the story by Toni Morrison, anyway. One should know the reference.

 

Does anyone here use Brer Rabbit molasses?

 

Lester's version isn't exactly dialect-free. I'm not sure what's the perfect answer. The Joel Chandler Harris is certainly heavy on the dialect, but it has a certain something to the language, where IMO the Lester version can be a little flat.

 

Bill

[Violet Crown]

I've only ever heard of it as a racial slur sort of thing.

 

Since there's another meaning I'd likely give another person the benefit of the doubt but I'd never use it myself.

:iagree:

I'd never heard it used in a non-racist sense until now, and the OP's poll question really startled me. I would assume a person in Texas using it was either racist or deeply clueless.

[LucyStoner]

 

I have a question about the bolded statment. Given that your kids are young it might not come up yet. How and when will you address culturally important but contemporarily awkward books? I am thinking Uncle Remus and Huckleberry Finn are common cultural literacy stories.

 

 

I don't plan to stop them from reading them, I think that things need to be considered in context. Huck Finn is a story we will likely have him read fairly soon. However, I never read the Uncle Remus stories as a kid- only saw them later on. My parents, who were raising an mixed family (my brother is African American and I am Caucasian) never had us read them and they were never used in school. Huck Finn was certainly at our house and also assigned in school when I was a kid. I don't know that I would use the Uncle Remus stories at all but I would not stop him from reading them if he wanted to or we came across a copy. So I guess for me, Uncle Remus has not been a culturally significant book to me in the same way as a Huck Finn. It is the illustrations of the original that I find almost as off putting at original dialect.

 

As for African folk tales, we read other ones, like various versions of Anansi the Spider (books and puppet show).

Edited August 29, 2011 by kijipt

[twoxcell]

The original Br'er Rabbitt (Uncle Remus) stories represent a very important part of our cultural heritage coming from West African and Native American roots. These are legitimate folk-tales that need to be preserved. That many were collected and popularized by Joel Chandler Harris, a "white" journalist who rendered the stories in (imperfectly) heavy "black dialect," does not make the stories "racist."

 

I bought a really nice large hardback picture book of Brer Rabbit to read to the kids a few years ago. We read the first story and I was dumb founded by it and traded the book in at a used book store. I'm not sure what the story was called but it was about Brer rabbit stealing food, and then getting caught by the foot in a rope. Dumb old Brer Bear comes along(who is obviously supposed to be African American) and Brer Rabbit convinced him to get himself tied up in the tree while he ran off. Then Brer Rabbit continues to watch as Brer bear is whipped by the other animals for steeling. He then skips off laughing at the cleverness of him.:confused: I saw no moral to such a story? Maybe I just missed something here.

[Impish]

I've only ever heard it from the Uncle Remus story.

[Denise in Florida]

Referring to an African American as a tar baby is racist.

 

The original Br'er Rabbitt (Uncle Remus) stories represent a very important part of our cultural heritage coming from West African and Native American roots. These are legitimate folk-tales that need to be preserved. That many were collected and popularized by Joel Chandler Harris, a "white" journalist who rendered the stories in (imperfectly) heavy "black dialect," does not make the stories "racist."

 

Joel Chandler Harris was, in fact, an an opponent of racism and a voice for racial reconciliation. If the dialect is a bit much, it was not rendered with an intent to lampoon or parody.

 

To lose these stories as part of out cultural heritage would be a shame.

 

Bill

 

:iagree: So, where do you stand on the new edit of Tom Sawyer?

[Ipsey]

I bought a really nice large hardback picture book of Brer Rabbit to read to the kids a few years ago. We read the first story and I was dumb founded by it and traded the book in at a used book store. I'm not sure what the story was called but it was about Brer rabbit stealing food, and then getting caught by the foot in a rope. Dumb old Brer Bear comes along(who is obviously supposed to be African American) and Brer Rabbit convinced him to get himself tied up in the tree while he ran off. Then Brer Rabbit continues to watch as Brer bear is whipped by the other animals for steeling. He then skips off laughing at the cleverness of him.:confused: I saw no moral to such a story? Maybe I just missed something here.

 

Well, it doesn't have to have a "moral" to be an intrinsic, important part of American literature. The Brer stories are part of American American history, and should be preserved so it's not just white people and white literature and white everything that's all there is left.

 

They are important trickster stories, similar to trickster stories you'll find in various cultures all over the world.

 

I think you should look up the story of the tar baby online and read it. You may find that one more accessible. It's a clever story, and you could probably derive a moral from it.

 

Ohh, Brer Rabbit is supposed to be black as well. "Brer" comes from the Gullah pronunciation of "Brother".

[Excelsior! Academy]

I have only read in context with Uncle Remus.

[Ipsey]

:iagree: So, where do you stand on the new edit of Tom Sawyer?

I believe it was _Huckleberry Finn_ that was Bowdlerized.

[Denise in Florida]

i don't think of it as a racial slur, but often words lose their original meaning over time & can take on a new implication (or simply have multiple definitions). i know my grandmother and the ladies at her church always made welsh faggots (she lived in PA in a very welsh area), but she would talk about them anywhere and everywhere, never understanding that it could be misconstrued as something else. oh my gosh, it was awkward. to her, it was only food, but everyone else around us probably heard something else.

 

This is wonderful! One of my posts above I talked about reading Peter Pan to my girls and having to explain the different meanings of 'queer'.

[twoxcell]

Well, it doesn't have to have a "moral" to be an intrinsic, important part of American literature. The Brer stories are part of American American history, and should be preserved so it's not just white people and white literature and white everything that's all there is left.

 

They are important trickster stories, similar to trickster stories you'll find in various cultures all over the world.

 

I think you should look up the story of the tar baby online and read it. You may find that one more accessible. It's a clever story, and you could probably derive a moral from it.

 

So what I got from the story was Brer Rabbit was white and Brer Bear was black? Am I wrong there. I have nothing against stories with African American's or outdated language, I just saw no redeeming value to such a story especially for young children. Basically the story says lie, cheat, steal, and trick. Then watch as an innocent person is punished and go off laughing about it.

[Ipsey]

So what I got from the story was Brer Rabbit was white and Brer Bear was black? Am I wrong there. I have nothing against stories with African American's or outdated language, I just saw no redeeming value to such a story especially for young children. Basically the story says lie, cheat, steal, and trick. Then watch as an innocent person is punished and go off laughing about it.

 

I believe that all of the character in the Brer stories are supposed to be African-American, in so far as an animal can be that :D

 

Here's a version of the Tar Baby story

http://americanfolklore.net/folklore/2010/07/brer_rabbit_meets_a_tar_baby.html

 

I only vaguely recall the Brer Bear story, but it sounds like a typical trickster story. There are conflicts between these animals. They're always picking on one another and causing one another problems. Read the Tar Baby story and you'll see. These are typical trickster stories. They're not morality tales--not in the way you're perhaps thinking.

[stripe]

No, none of the animals have any race. They're animals. The stories are "told" by Uncle Remus, who is black. Hence the black dialect. Maybe a black storyteller imparts certain "black" characteristics to them, but I don't think it makes a difference, frankly. All the animals are imperfect, and most are out to get Brer Rabbit. Yes, he cheats and steals. This is a whole subgenre called trickster tales. Clearly not for those who want tidy moral lessons. Better to read Aesop for that.

 

I am very sure reading stories about naughty animals does not teach my children to misbehave. We regularly read stories with imperfect characters.

[Ellie]

In my entire life I've never heard anyone use that phrase, written or verbal, other than referring to the Uncle Remus story, and it never, ever ocurred to me that the story itself might have racial overtones.

[Ipsey]

No, none of the animals have any race. They're animals. The stories are "told" by Uncle Remus, who is black. Hence the black dialect. Maybe a black storyteller imparts certain "black" characteristics to them, but I don't think it makes a difference, frankly. All the animals are imperfect, and most are out to get Brer Rabbit. Yes, he cheats and steals. This is a whole subgenre called trickster tales. Clearly not for those who want tidy moral lessons. Better to read Aesop for that.

 

I am very sure reading stories about naughty animals does not teach my children to misbehave. We regularly read stories with imperfect characters.

 

Yes, I'm sure you're right. I just always figured, since I first heard them as a kid, that the original children listening to these would be black children, and imagining them as "black" animals :)

 

You're right in that they probably have no real "race", and surely they weren't meant to create a white/black conflict in any case.

[Ellie]

So what I got from the story was Brer Rabbit was white and Brer Bear was black? Am I wrong there. I have nothing against stories with African American's or outdated language, I just saw no redeeming value to such a story especially for young children. Basically the story says lie, cheat, steal, and trick. Then watch as an innocent person is punished and go off laughing about it.

Really? I thought one was a rabbit and one was a bear. :001_huh:

[Spy Car]

No, none of the animals have any race. They're animals. The stories are "told" by Uncle Remus, who is black. Hence the black dialect. Maybe a black storyteller imparts certain "black" characteristics to them, but I don't think it makes a difference, frankly. All the animals are imperfect, and most are out to get Brer Rabbit. Yes, he cheats and steals. This is a whole subgenre called trickster tales. Clearly not for those who want tidy moral lessons. Better to read Aesop for that.

 

I am very sure reading stories about naughty animals does not teach my children to misbehave. We regularly read stories with imperfect characters.

 

:iagree:

[Denise in Florida]

I believe it was _Huckleberry Finn_ that was Bowdlerized.

 

Yep, :tongue_smilie:. My apologies to Mark Twain. But back to the question, does it damage the original intent and story line when we 'clean up' a story?

[twoxcell]

I know they are animals.:lol: I'm talking about the way their dialect sounded to me. In no way was I trying to offend anyone. I personally just did not care for the story, and in fact my kids were dumbfounded after hearing it. I also do not think any kid is going to become a terrible trickster after reading it.;)

Edited August 29, 2011 by twoxcell