s/o: How much do you care about modesty?

[justamouse]

I just want to go on the record that I'm actually pretty modest myself (though with this board you never know with some of the dresses y'all thought were immodest). I call it self respect, and I teach it to my kids, but there's a balance.

 

I really agree with twoforjoy's post. But I would go a bit forward and call the reasons we dress 'modestly' sometimes is a pretty facade on pride.

 

So there's balance. I don't think there's anything wrong with beauty. Our world is beautiful and it seems that God had a great time making things that way. I'm not going to let anyone make me feel guilty for buying a dress I feel pretty in.

Edited July 18, 2011 by justamouse

[twoforjoy]

:confused: I don't even understand this. What is wrong with masterbastion? How will it effect their future sex lives and marriages? I am not trying to be snarky. I honestly do not understand. I too am anti-porn but I think most guys can manage just fine without it. Could you perhaps further elaborate on your thought processes?

 

My DH was raised in a household and church where masturbation was seen as wrong and sinful. It did not keep him from looking at porn--in fact, he struggled with a porn addiction for a long time, I think largely because of how much guilt he ended up feeling around any sexual thoughts--but I would say his guilty/shame about masturbation has negatively affected our marriage. He's got a much, much larger sex drive than I do, and honestly I think it would be easier if, some of the time, he could handle his own sexual needs without shame or guilt.

[Amy in NH]

For us, its exactly the opposite of anti-woman.

 

I want my kids to know that women don't have to dress as s*x objects to be noticed. How many of us tell our kids its whats inside that counts?

 

To me, dressing like a piece of meat on the menu is devaluing women, not dressing so that your bits are covered.

 

:iagree:

 

Modesty is important, to a point. There's definitely a fine line.

 

My 5yo dd can run around the yard in her undies (rural, secluded), but I also want to be able to dress her in clothes that aren't sexualized when we go out in public. I want her to know that she should never be ashamed of her body, and have realistic expectation of what bodies should look like. However, I want her to value herself as more than just a body for men to ogle.

 

I'm not religious, and I have both religious and non-religious friends who also value modesty.

[Tangerine]

The only marriage/masturbation conflict I can imagine, is if (for whatever reason) someone is masturbating to the exclusion of intercourse. I can't for the life of me figure out how a young person (of BOTH GENDERS) masturbating is going to adversely affect their future marriage. :confused: If anything, a woman knowing what she needs would be a help to the man. Less stumbling around for decades, with the woman having no idea how to help him help her.

[HRAAB]

:confused: I don't even understand this. What is wrong with masterbastion? How will it effect their future sex lives and marriages? I am not trying to be snarky. I honestly do not understand. I too am anti-porn but I think most guys can manage just fine without it. Could you perhaps further elaborate on your thought processes?

 

I think for some people who believe that sex was given to humans by God for unity and life giving love between married persons that masturbation falls outside those purposes and becomes selfish. Masturbation (sexual self gratification) is contrary to God's purpose for sex which is mutual self-giving love. I'm sure I didn't explain that very well, but maybe that helps some.

 

The above doesn't necessarily reflect my views on the subject but my understanding from a Christian perspective. :001_smile:

[silliness7]

I think the modesty movement is ultimately anti-woman. Posts about not being able to do ballet or sports due to modesty concerns illustrate this.

 

I'm not sure what the "modesty movement" is. However I think not showing your wares to everyone on the street means that you don't view yourself as eye candy for the general population. Women respecting themselves and choosing to showcase other aspects of their womanhood aside from the obvious sounds pro-woman to me.

[swellmomma]

I will say, too, that personally I'm more bothered by the prospect of my kids wanting to wear expensive designer clothing than I am by them wanting to wear clothing that shows more skin than some people might think is appropriate. That's an aspect of modesty that rarely gets discussed, which is funny since not wearing clothing that flaunts one's wealth seems to be exactly what Paul was talking about. But we seem to think that wearing clothing that flaunts one's wealth is fine, as long as the neckline is high enough.

 

 

That is a good point. I had not thought of it at all. I guess because up until now the expensive clothing the kids wore was limited to gap and gymboree and even that I bought used. Ds is starting to wear men's clothing but is still at the age where we doesn't care about designer labels, he just wants comfy(he only were's sweats most of the time). But dd is coming up the line and I can see this being something we will need to consider. Of course the fact is I have no money to buy expensive designer clothes right now. I do remember coveting them back when I was a teen (couldn't afford them back then either) and wouldn't want dd (or the boys) to be doing that either, just as much as I wouldn't want them flaunting wealth with expensive clothes all the time.

[twoforjoy]

Modesty is important, to a point. There's definitely a fine line.

 

My 5yo dd can run around the yard in her undies (rural, secluded), but I also want to be able to dress her in clothes that aren't sexualized when we go out in public. I want her to know that she should never be ashamed of her body, and have realistic expectation of what bodies should look like. However, I want her to value herself as more than just a body for men to ogle.

 

I'm not religious, and I have both religious and non-religious friends who also value modesty.

 

I think the problem, though, is the way that much of the discourse around modesty goes. It's not, at least in many Christian circles, about a girl respecting herself but about protecting innocent young men from the lustful thoughts that they just can't help but have when they see a woman dressed in an "inappropriate" way. And, what's inappropriate? Well, any way of dressing that provokes lustful thoughts, obviously.

 

The language that is used around women who dress immodestly by people who claim to value "modesty"--"trashy," "trampy," "cheap," "slutty," "prosti-tots," etc.--shows that this is not about respecting women for many of them. Because if you respect women, then you respect them no matter how they are dressed. You don't use degrading language to describe women who dress in ways you don't approve of. In fact, I've heard, more than once, proponents of "modesty" applaud their sons for using the most offensive, degrading language to describe women who are immodestly dressed. Personally, I'd be far, far more concerned about my son calling a girl a "tramp" or "slut" because of how she was dressed than about my daughter dressing in a way that might cause others to label her as one of those things. But, passing those kinds of judgments seems to be something that is often valued in many circles where modesty is highly promoted.

 

And, I also find it disrespectful to women because of the double message being sent. The message is always, "Be modest, but for God's sake don't be frumpy. Don't inspire lustful thoughts in men, but you better make sure you still look attractive to them." That just galls me. The idea is still that women are there to be pretty objects for men to look at, it's just that the idea of what that should entail differs from what mainstream culture says it should entail.

[justamouse]

I think the problem, though, is the way that much of the discourse around modesty goes. It's not, at least in many Christian circles, about a girl respecting herself but about protecting innocent young men from the lustful thoughts that they just can't help but have when they see a woman dressed in an "inappropriate" way. And, what's inappropriate? Well, any way of dressing that provokes lustful thoughts, obviously.

 

The language that is used around women who dress immodestly by people who claim to value "modesty"--"trashy," "trampy," "cheap," "slutty," "prosti-tots," etc.--shows that this is not about respecting women for many of them. Because if you respect women, then you respect them no matter how they are dressed. You don't use degrading language to describe women who dress in ways you don't approve of. In fact, I've heard, more than once, proponents of "modesty" applaud their sons for using the most offensive, degrading language to describe women who are immodestly dressed. Personally, I'd be far, far more concerned about my son calling a girl a "tramp" or "slut" because of how she was dressed than about my daughter dressing in a way that might cause others to label her as one of those things. But, passing those kinds of judgments seems to be something that is often valued in many circles where modesty is highly promoted.

 

And, I also find it disrespectful to women because of the double message being sent. The message is always, "Be modest, but for God's sake don't be frumpy. Don't inspire lustful thoughts in men, but you better make sure you still look attractive to them." That just galls me. The idea is still that women are there to be pretty objects for men to look at, it's just that the idea of what that should entail differs from what mainstream culture says it should entail.

 

Amen. :iagree:

[Tangerine]

I think the problem, though, is the way that much of the discourse around modesty goes. It's not, at least in many Christian circles, about a girl respecting herself but about protecting innocent young men from the lustful thoughts that they just can't help but have when they see a woman dressed in an "inappropriate" way. And, what's inappropriate? Well, any way of dressing that provokes lustful thoughts, obviously.

 

The language that is used around women who dress immodestly by people who claim to value "modesty"--"trashy," "trampy," "cheap," "slutty," "prosti-tots," etc.--shows that this is not about respecting women for many of them. Because if you respect women, then you respect them no matter how they are dressed. You don't use degrading language to describe women who dress in ways you don't approve of. In fact, I've heard, more than once, proponents of "modesty" applaud their sons for using the most offensive, degrading language to describe women who are immodestly dressed. Personally, I'd be far, far more concerned about my son calling a girl a "tramp" or "slut" because of how she was dressed than about my daughter dressing in a way that might cause others to label her as one of those things. But, passing those kinds of judgments seems to be something that is often valued in many circles where modesty is highly promoted.

 

And, I also find it disrespectful to women because of the double message being sent. The message is always, "Be modest, but for God's sake don't be frumpy. Don't inspire lustful thoughts in men, but you better make sure you still look attractive to them." That just galls me. The idea is still that women are there to be pretty objects for men to look at, it's just that the idea of what that should entail differs from what mainstream culture says it should entail.

 

Perfect. :iagree:

[*Lulu*]

I think we've lost the distinction between modesty and prudishness. When, in the interest of modesty, women are being restricted from activities and from freely choosing what they wear and the prime concern is what the men around them might think rather then instilling a sense of respect of self in girls so they'll dress modestly, then we're talking prudishness and we've stepped firmly (if we're talking a Christian context) into sin.

 

To me, modesty doesn't negate a a woman's sexuality or the beauty of the female form. Prudishness does and I think a LOT of what we see that claims to be modesty is actually prudishness these days.

 

:iagree: (Bolded by me)

 

I haven't read all of this thread, but I do consider myself and most of my circle to have a modest standard of dress for our families. However, I have come to realize after a few years on different internet forums, I do not think what I view as modest is the image others conjure up when they hear the term.

 

Now my husband is modest, but not prudish in his view of fashion right up until the moment the fashion shows up on his daughter. :tongue_smilie:

She is just blessed with a mother who knows how to help him see reason and find his inner :chillpill:.

[Perry]

I agree with most of what you are saying, but this

 

The language that is used around women who dress immodestly by people who claim to value "modesty"--"trashy," "trampy," "cheap," "slutty," "prosti-tots," etc.--shows that this is not about respecting women for many of them. Because if you respect women, then you respect them no matter how they are dressed.

confuses me. Respecting women doesn't necessarily mean you have to respect every single individual and her behavior. I respect women, but if a woman lies, cheats, and steals, I don't respect her.

 

Likewise, if a girl shows up for a dance in this,

 

that just doesn't scream respect.

[justamouse]

I agree with most of what you are saying, but this

confuses me. Respecting women doesn't necessarily mean you have to respect every single individual and her behavior. I respect women, but if a woman lies, cheats, and steals, I don't respect her.

 

Likewise, if a girl shows up for a dance in this,

 

(edited out picture)

 

 

that just doesn't scream respect.

 

It's the respect of her as life, as a person made in the image of God. Though she doesn't SEE herself that way, it's nonetheless true and if we disrespect her, it only adds to her own disrespect. We don't respect people for what they dress as or who they see themselves as, we respect them because they are ALSO God's greatest creation.

Edited July 18, 2011 by justamouse

[twoforjoy]

I agree with most of what you are saying, but this

confuses me. Respecting women doesn't necessarily mean you have to respect every single individual and her behavior. I respect women, but if a woman lies, cheats, and steals, I don't respect her.

 

I don't think all behaviors need to be respected. But, I do think that using degrading language to refer to women--or anybody--is inappropriate. I don't think it's ever okay to call a woman a "tramp" or "slut." There are ways to talk about their dress or behavior without resulting to misogynistic name-calling or in devaluing them as human beings, which is what that kind of language does.

 

I wish I could find the link to this talk I heard once, by some anti-feminist modesty proponent, who was so proud of her son for wanting to stay away from "trampy" girls--and had no problem with the degrading language he used to describe them. That, to me, is just sad and wrong. Maybe that girl could have used a friend. Maybe she could have used somebody to respect and value her as a person. But, this idea that it's okay to write off women who don't dress in the "right" way seems really prevalent among a good number of modesty proponents. Keep the slut away, as if it's somehow infectious. Dividing up women into the "right" and "wrong" sort and then ostracizing the "wrong" sort--especially when we're talking about teens and in some cases even younger girls--is just not the way we show that we respect and value women.

Edited July 18, 2011 by twoforjoy

[justamouse]

I think we've lost the distinction between modesty and prudishness. When, in the interest of modesty, women are being restricted from activities and from freely choosing what they wear and the prime concern is what the men around them might think rather then instilling a sense of respect of self in girls so they'll dress modestly, then we're talking prudishness and we've stepped firmly (if we're talking a Christian context) into sin.

 

To me, modesty doesn't negate a a woman's sexuality or the beauty of the female form. Prudishness does and I think a LOT of what we see that claims to be modesty is actually prudishness these days.

:iagree:

[I.Dup.]

:confused: I don't even understand this. What is wrong with masterbastion? How will it effect their future sex lives and marriages? I am not trying to be snarky. I honestly do not understand. I too am anti-porn but I think most guys can manage just fine without it. Could you perhaps further elaborate on your thought processes?

 

I would rather not get caught up in this discussion/argument again, I posted a LOT in this thread last night and got a bit worn out from it, but what Ishki wrote below is pretty accurate. The problem (for me) comes when masturbation is paired with pornography, and it often is (although I recognize not always, but often). I'm not going to be "shaming" my boys or chasing them around with a wooden spoon or anything, I just personally do not see getting into the habit of masturbating, ESPECIALLY if it involves pornography of any kind, as being healthy. I know many disagree and that is fine. :001_smile: These are my own personal views and I'd rather not continue to argue about it. :001_smile:

 

I think for some people who believe that sex was given to humans by God for unity and life giving love between married persons that masturbation falls outside those purposes and becomes selfish. Masturbation (sexual self gratification) is contrary to God's purpose for sex which is mutual self-giving love. I'm sure I didn't explain that very well, but maybe that helps some.

[Orthodox6]

I think we've lost the distinction between modesty and prudishness. When, in the interest of modesty, women are being restricted from activities and from freely choosing what they wear and the prime concern is what the men around them might think rather then instilling a sense of respect of self in girls so they'll dress modestly, then we're talking prudishness and we've stepped firmly (if we're talking a Christian context) into sin.

 

To me, modesty doesn't negate a a woman's sexuality or the beauty of the female form. Prudishness does and I think a LOT of what we see that claims to be modesty is actually prudishness these days.

 

Nope.

[UnsinkableKristen]

Not much to add, but this has been such an interesting discussion. I really appreciate the views from both sides (and the middle) on this and the other topics covered.

 

It's given me lots to think about, for sure!

[Pretty in Pink]

I've not read past the OP and the few posts on this last page. I doubt I care nearly as much about modesty as some of the individuals posting in this thread. I'm not one for having all of my lady bits on display, but I'm not above a pair of short-ish shorts or a pretty camisole during the summer months. I still wear a bikini in public. I own plenty of tank tops and sundresses.

 

Our little ones bathe with momma until they are around three years of age. My 5yo still doesn't knock before entering a room and so he sees me changing from time to time. And, more often than not, our little ones can be found running around the house in various states of undress (undies and a cape are the uniform of the day for our youngest, currently).

 

In the thread about the homecoming dress I voted that I'd probably not allow my daughter to wear that dress, though I'd have to see the fit on her before deciding due to the length of the dress in question because, practically speaking, it would be pretty difficult to do much besides slow dance in a dress that short without revealing a bit too much. I'd be fine with a pair of shorts in the same length.

 

I was at the playground yesterday evening and there was a religious group of some sort there as well. The women and girls were all sporting shapeless, homemade dresses with sleeves that went to the elbows, high neck lines, and skirts to their ankles. They all wore bonnets. The men and boys were all wearing jeans and polo shirts. The boys were able to play on the equipment but the girls were not allowed because of their dresses. I watched a father pull his little girl, who looked all of three years old, off the swing and tell her that she couldn't swing because a boy might try to look up her dress. None of the little girls were allowed to play the entire time we were there. :confused: This seemed incredibly sad to me.

[Perry]

I don't think all behaviors need to be respected. But, I do think that using degrading language to refer to women--or anybody--is inappropriate. I don't think it's ever okay to call a woman a "tramp" or "slut." There are ways to talk about their dress or behavior without resulting to misogynistic name-calling or in devaluing them as human beings, which is what that kind of language does.

 

I wish I could find the link to this talk I heard once, by some anti-feminist modesty proponent, who was so proud of her son for wanting to stay away from "trampy" girls--and had no problem with the degrading language he used to describe them. That, to me, is just sad and wrong. Maybe that girl could have used a friend. Maybe she could have used somebody to respect and value her as a person. But, this idea that it's okay to write off women who don't dress in the "right" way seems really prevalent among a good number of modesty proponents. Keep the slut away, as if it's somehow infectious. Dividing up women into the "right" and "wrong" sort and then ostracizing the "wrong" sort--especially when we're talking about teens and in some cases even younger girls--is just not the way we show that we respect and value women.

Thank you for clarifying. I agree with you.

 

Although there are people I don't respect, because they haven't earned it.

 

I have noticed on Twitter and Facebook that referring to your female friends as sluts and b*tches now seems to be a common form of endearment. I find it incredibly sad.

[8circles]

I've noticed that the issue of modesty sure does seem to come up often on these boards. Am I really in the minority for just not giving a hoot about modesty? No, I don't think so. (Within reason of course, you're not going to find my family going about town in leather chaps, g-strings and pasties. :tongue_smilie:) Likewise, I can't say I've heard the issue of modesty come up at all in real life amongst my circle of friends and acquaintances. Me either.

 

If modesty is a concern for your family is it mostly due to religious reasons? Are there any non-religious families here who have strong feelings about remaining modest?

 

I'd say in general I don't give modesty, as it pertains to women's dress, much thought. I think real modesty is about actions & intentions, not how much of any body part is showing. That doesn't mean I advocate or approve of the sexualization of kids (& really, it's not just girls but boys too). I think there's entirely too much emphasis put on how women dress & making them responsible for the sin in the heads of men/boys.

[Natalieclare]

My second daughter told me she got a new appreciation for modesty when attending a class at the high school. She said as she walked through the halls, she overheard a boy say, "I'd hit that!" as various girls walked by wearing various levels of clothing designed to be provocative. It made her so uncomfortable. It's not me telling them not to cause a boy to lust, it's the actual boys who have made them feel uncomfortable and meat-like.

 

Both my daughters are non-conformists and hate wearing anything that smacks of the teenage "uniform". So, they may attract attention for the uniqueness of their clothing, though not much since we live sorta near Seattle where most people feel free to do their own thing. But my dds don't like their clothing to be revealing.

[MrsMe]

Obviously this is pure personal opinion, but every one should care about modesty and I'm surprised many don't!

 

Yes, I do care. I don't think anyone should walk around displaying themselves in public. Just two days ago, I went to the mall (don't go often obviously). There were tons of girls in tight, short shorts that just covered their butts, and I lost count how many were pulling the short crotches out of their you-know-whats. No kidding. It was disgusting. Then if that doesn't get you, being B00bed out does.

 

Modest doesn't have to be dressing like you're in a sack. But when dressing like a hoochie mama and your b00bs are so displayed that they turn heads of women by accident and you have to do the deer in the headlights! Geez! Thank you no, but I have no desire to eat when you're displaying your b00bs to my dh when you're clearing our table at a restaurant.

 

You can wear fitted clothing without being tight, trashy, and cleavage hanging. When did class die? When did parents think this was okay. When is it okay for their dad to see 1+ inches of cleavage on their dd's? Why wear this printed bra underneath a clear white shirt. Hell! Save on clothes and laundry! Don't wear a shirt! You can see it all anyway, which is the point.

[WishboneDawn]

Obviously this is pure personal opinion, but every one should care about modesty and I'm surprised many don't!

 

I think many don't because it's not an issue for them. They and their kids just don't do very revealing clothing.

[LisaKinVA]

Most of the people I know who talk a lot about modesty, do so for religious reasons.

 

My brother has been known to tell my girls to "go put some clothes on" while visitin our home (one time, they told my daughter to go put a pair of shorts on... she was wearing a SKORT (I think they thought it was a mini-skirt) :lol: Their girls do not wear pants. Wear dresses to their ankles and 3/4 sleeves.

 

My girls are dressed appropriately. I am teaching them time/place/body shape. My oldest fully understands that there are clothes that just look bad on her because of how her body was made, that will look just right on her sister. I explain that this is true for me, too.

 

Modesty does come up, but it is more in the framework of when it's okay to be naked :D, keeping doors shut when using the potty, etc.

 

Dressing provocatively has it's time/place... but we haven't gotten to that stage yet! ;)

[twoforjoy]

Obviously this is pure personal opinion, but every one should care about modesty and I'm surprised many don't!

 

Yes, I do care. I don't think anyone should walk around displaying themselves in public. Just two days ago, I went to the mall (don't go often obviously). There were tons of girls in tight, short shorts that just covered their butts, and I lost count how many were pulling the short crotches out of their you-know-whats. No kidding. It was disgusting. Then if that doesn't get you, being B00bed out does.

 

Modest doesn't have to be dressing like you're in a sack. But when dressing like a hoochie mama and your b00bs are so displayed that they turn heads of women by accident and you have to do the deer in the headlights! Geez! Thank you no, but I have no desire to eat when you're displaying your b00bs to my dh when you're clearing our table at a restaurant.

 

You can wear fitted clothing without being tight, trashy, and cleavage hanging. When did class die? When did parents think this was okay. When is it okay for their dad to see 1+ inches of cleavage on their dd's? Why wear this printed bra underneath a clear white shirt. Hell! Save on clothes and laundry! Don't wear a shirt! You can see it all anyway, which is the point.

 

Do you really think those are appropriate ways to talk about teenage girls? This is exactly what I'm talking about, how "modesty" is often a cover for having an attitude of total disrespect for women, especially young women, who don't meet our standards.

 

It sounds like you think that how modest other people are is something that is your business. I don't think it is. As far as modesty is an issue, it's an issue for an individual and what they wear themselves, and, maybe, what their children wear while their children are young. It should not be any of our business what anybody else chooses to wear. I thought, as Christians, our responsibility was to love and serve others, not to harshly judge them based on what they are wearing.

 

Judging people by their appearance is not modest; it's prideful and vain.

[Wheres Toto]

I think the problem, though, is the way that much of the discourse around modesty goes. It's not, at least in many Christian circles, about a girl respecting herself but about protecting innocent young men from the lustful thoughts that they just can't help but have when they see a woman dressed in an "inappropriate" way. And, what's inappropriate? Well, any way of dressing that provokes lustful thoughts, obviously.

 

The language that is used around women who dress immodestly by people who claim to value "modesty"--"trashy," "trampy," "cheap," "slutty," "prosti-tots," etc.--shows that this is not about respecting women for many of them. Because if you respect women, then you respect them no matter how they are dressed. You don't use degrading language to describe women who dress in ways you don't approve of. In fact, I've heard, more than once, proponents of "modesty" applaud their sons for using the most offensive, degrading language to describe women who are immodestly dressed. Personally, I'd be far, far more concerned about my son calling a girl a "tramp" or "slut" because of how she was dressed than about my daughter dressing in a way that might cause others to label her as one of those things. But, passing those kinds of judgments seems to be something that is often valued in many circles where modesty is highly promoted.

 

And, I also find it disrespectful to women because of the double message being sent. The message is always, "Be modest, but for God's sake don't be frumpy. Don't inspire lustful thoughts in men, but you better make sure you still look attractive to them." That just galls me. The idea is still that women are there to be pretty objects for men to look at, it's just that the idea of what that should entail differs from what mainstream culture says it should entail.

 

:iagree:

I agree with most of what you are saying, but this

confuses me. Respecting women doesn't necessarily mean you have to respect every single individual and her behavior. I respect women, but if a woman lies, cheats, and steals, I don't respect her.

 

Likewise, if a girl shows up for a dance in this,

 

that just doesn't scream respect.

 

Those dresses are just over the top. I voted in the other poll that I would let me dd wear something similar (except she hates strapless) but that's a long way from this stuff! We are not exactly in a conservative area of the country and no one would wear some of these to any place but a club in the city Some of them I would only expect to see on strippers.

 

That's what I keep seeing in these discussions. There is a middle ground between covered neck to toes and flaunting it all. It is possible for a girl to dress trendy and fit in with peers without looking like she's half naked. I don't have a problem with tank/camisole tops (dd tends to wear them layered in different colors), shorts that are a couple inches below the butt, skirts long enough to wear shorts under (dd's preference), two piece bathing suits, etc.

 

Oh yeah, I'm also a supporter of masturbation but not excessive porn. :001_smile:

Edited July 18, 2011 by dottieanna29

[*Lulu*]

Most of the people I know who talk a lot about modesty, do so for religious reasons.

 

My brother has been known to tell my girls to "go put some clothes on" while visitin our home (one time, they told my daughter to go put a pair of shorts on... she was wearing a SKORT (I think they thought it was a mini-skirt) :lol: Their girls do not wear pants. Wear dresses to their ankles and 3/4 sleeves.

 

My girls are dressed appropriately. I am teaching them time/place/body shape. My oldest fully understands that there are clothes that just look bad on her because of how her body was made, that will look just right on her sister. I explain that this is true for me, too.

 

Modesty does come up, but it is more in the framework of when it's okay to be naked :D, keeping doors shut when using the potty, etc.

 

Dressing provocatively has it's time/place... but we haven't gotten to that stage yet! ;)

 

Were they joking or serious? :001_huh:

[ma23peas]

Dressing provocatively has it's time/place... but we haven't gotten to that stage yet! ;)

 

For my daughters, this time would be never. Not only my position, but they are actually more concerned about modesty than I am...they would never wear a bikini...they hate the low rider jeans not only b/c they are low but they are uncomfortable...if I buy them a workout top for rowing or dance, they will throw something on top...they are not fearful or neurotic, they have a sincere desire to not make their body 'the show'....they want it to be about who they are not 'what' they wear.

 

And they see what other girls wear and those that dress provocatively have parallel character issues that concern them...it may be insecurities, overly flirtatious, etc. But, in some cases clothes may not make the man but they sure can affect him.

[mommaduck]

Most of the people I know who talk a lot about modesty, do so for religious reasons.

 

My brother has been known to tell my girls to "go put some clothes on" while visitin our home (one time, they told my daughter to go put a pair of shorts on... she was wearing a SKORT (I think they thought it was a mini-skirt) :lol: Their girls do not wear pants. Wear dresses to their ankles and 3/4 sleeves.

 

My girls are dressed appropriately. I am teaching them time/place/body shape. My oldest fully understands that there are clothes that just look bad on her because of how her body was made, that will look just right on her sister. I explain that this is true for me, too.

 

Modesty does come up, but it is more in the framework of when it's okay to be naked :D, keeping doors shut when using the potty, etc.

 

Dressing provocatively has it's time/place... but we haven't gotten to that stage yet! ;)

It's one thing to set standards for your own family, but you don't go setting them for other people, particularly if you are VISITING THEIR home :glare: If it is such a problem, then he shouldn't visit (JMO...sorry, that irked me that he felt he could tell your daughter what to do in this case).

[Perry]

I think many don't because it's not an issue for them. They and their kids just don't do very revealing clothing.

 

Good point. Maybe if they had a dd who was continually pushing the extremes they might feel differently. ;)

[Upward Journey]

I don't concern myself too much with it. I mean, I wouldn't allow body parts falling out of clothes, but we don't avoid shorts, two pieces, or tank tops.

 

This is us as well. We live in hot, humid FL and my girls and I dress to be comfortable.

[Mommy22alyns]

Modesty is important here, but not because of religion. We're also balanced. The girls wear swim suits (tankinis are ok, but no tiny bikinis), shorts, tank tops, and go to gymnastics in a leotard and short shorts. I do prefer that their dresses be below their knees (personal aesthetic) and they always wear something underneath (purely practical).

 

I mainly want the girls to care enough about themselves to not become an object. They are so much more than their face and their body. That message going to girls is practically revolutionary. :tongue_smilie:

[8circles]

Judging people by their appearance is not modest; it's prideful and vain.

:iagree:

[T'smom]

I think the problem, though, is the way that much of the discourse around modesty goes. It's not, at least in many Christian circles, about a girl respecting herself but about protecting innocent young men from the lustful thoughts that they just can't help but have when they see a woman dressed in an "inappropriate" way. And, what's inappropriate? Well, any way of dressing that provokes lustful thoughts, obviously.

 

The language that is used around women who dress immodestly by people who claim to value "modesty"--"trashy," "trampy," "cheap," "slutty," "prosti-tots," etc.--shows that this is not about respecting women for many of them. Because if you respect women, then you respect them no matter how they are dressed. You don't use degrading language to describe women who dress in ways you don't approve of. In fact, I've heard, more than once, proponents of "modesty" applaud their sons for using the most offensive, degrading language to describe women who are immodestly dressed. Personally, I'd be far, far more concerned about my son calling a girl a "tramp" or "slut" because of how she was dressed than about my daughter dressing in a way that might cause others to label her as one of those things. But, passing those kinds of judgments seems to be something that is often valued in many circles where modesty is highly promoted.

 

And, I also find it disrespectful to women because of the double message being sent. The message is always, "Be modest, but for God's sake don't be frumpy. Don't inspire lustful thoughts in men, but you better make sure you still look attractive to them." That just galls me. The idea is still that women are there to be pretty objects for men to look at, it's just that the idea of what that should entail differs from what mainstream culture says it should entail.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

There is much wisdom in this post.

[MrsMe]

Do you really think those are appropriate ways to talk about teenage girls? This is exactly what I'm talking about, how "modesty" is often a cover for having an attitude of total disrespect for women, especially young women, who don't meet our standards.

 

It sounds like you think that how modest other people are is something that is your business. I don't think it is. As far as modesty is an issue, it's an issue for an individual and what they wear themselves, and, maybe, what their children wear while their children are young. It should not be any of our business what anybody else chooses to wear. I thought, as Christians, our responsibility was to love and serve others, not to harshly judge them based on what they are wearing.

 

Judging people by their appearance is not modest; it's prideful and vain.

 

Um, yes it is completely my business. I'm also not harshly judging, I wrote exactly what I saw. And simply, if you want respect, it would be helpful if you dressed for it.

 

I live in this world too and I think it's pathetic the way bra staps hanging out and cutesy bra's under white shirts, rolls of bare skin hanging out over pants or shorts and shorts too so tight they're walking funny is the norm. Really, the guy is going to go for the one that's easy. And if that's how you dress, well then....

 

It's a great example for my child on how not to dress. However, it's not my business to go up to a total stranger and say something about it, but it's my business to use them as an example in my teaching my dd on how not to dress in a way that portrays suggestiveness. How others will portray her if she's the only modest dressed person in a group of lets say, street-walkerish girls. Heck yes I will judge. It's a great start on teaching kids how other's portray you by your actions and your attire and who you hang with. And really it covers many facets, not just immodest dress. If you swear like a sailor, I'll judge you. First impressions count. Sad as it may.

 

How modest people dress is my business when I have to see it all the time and it becomes what people think is okay in public. Frankly it's not okay. It's not okay to explain why that Mom's 3" of butt crack is hanging out with a red lace g-string for all to see. This was displayed among many children in our karate class. I judge. The way girls dress or even with the boys underwear jeans ... it's not okay. The fall of society.

 

But there's no blanket statement that says after meeting a person I will "hate" them because...I don't and it's a dumb statement. I judge choices. Not someone's nose or eyes or height, etc. Clothing as stated in this thread is a choice. Kids choose to dress immodestly, and parents choose to buy it, because it's too much work to look for something else.

 

People make judgements about people all the time. You must in a fallen society so you can try to stay on the right track. It's their perrogative to dress as they want. In the right place or the right instance or time or even the kid who seemed to be looking for "someone", I wouldn't hesitate to try to disciple and minister. When you see wrong, you judge. You must. The thought process is what do you do with it is what counts. And what I choose to do with what I see is to not do it.

 

I think the other real question is what is deemed modest. Everyone has a different idea of it.

 

Let me add that I agree with your post quoted above this one. I think this entire modest topic is a package deal. There are several factors, not just immodest dress, but also the way they speak (or swear) and present themselves.

Edited July 18, 2011 by alilac

[Natalieclare]

Do you really think those are appropriate ways to talk about teenage girls? This is exactly what I'm talking about, how "modesty" is often a cover for having an attitude of total disrespect for women, especially young women, who don't meet our standards.

 

Judging people by their appearance is not modest; it's prideful and vain.

 

While I agree with you about always speaking respectfully of everyone, I wonder what verbiage to use when describing what is undesirable to us for our own particular family. At some point, making a decision, drawing a line between what we will do and what someone else does will come across as a judgment no matter how nicely you phrase it. I don't want to call girls trashy, trampy, cheap, etc. and if I met a prostitute, I would treat her with love and respect, but I don't want my daughters to look like one while she's working. How do you get around that? There is a look that I don't want to emulate. Some people have it. It seems artificial to me to completely avoid that. I am genuinely asking, as it is very important to me to speak of people respectfully.

 

I recently had an encounter with someone very dear to me who asked me her opinion of an outfit she was wearing. I told her I thought it was cute, but I would discourage my girls from wearing something so short. I thought we had enough secure ground between us for it to be allowable for us to have different standards, but I think she felt hurt anyway. I think it stinks to have a more stringent standard and have people automaticlly assume you are judgmental just because of that standard.

[Jugglin'5]

Um, yes it is completely my business. I'm also not harshly judging, I wrote exactly what I saw. And simply, if you want respect, it would be helpful if you dressed for it.

 

I live in this world too and I think it's pathetic the way bra staps hanging out and cutesy bra's under white shirts, rolls of bare skin hanging out over pants or shorts and shorts too so tight they're walking funny is the norm. Really, the guy is going to go for the one that's easy. And if that's how you dress, well then....

 

It's a great example for my child on how not to dress. However, it's not my business to go up to a total stranger and say something about it, but it's my business to use them as an example in my teaching my dd on how not to dress in a way that portrays suggestiveness. How others will portray her if she's the only modest dressed person in a group of lets say, street-walkerish girls. Heck yes I will judge. It's a great start on teaching kids how other's portray you by your actions and your attire and who you hang with. And really it covers many facets, not just immodest dress. If you swear like a sailor, I'll judge you. First impressions count. Sad as it may.

 

How modest people dress is my business when I have to see it all the time and it becomes what people think is okay in public. Frankly it's not okay. It's not okay to explain why that Mom's 3" of butt crack is hanging out with a red lace g-string for all to see. This was displayed among many children in our karate class. I judge. The way girls dress or even with the boys underwear jeans ... it's not okay. The fall of society.

 

But there's no blanket statement that says after meeting a person I will "hate" them because...I don't and it's a dumb statement. I judge choices. Not someone's nose or eyes or height, etc. Clothing as stated in this thread is a choice. Kids choose to dress immodestly, and parents choose to buy it, because it's too much work to look for something else.

 

People make judgements about people all the time. You must in a fallen society so you can try to stay on the right track. It's their perrogative to dress as they want. In the right place or the right instance or time or even the kid who seemed to be looking for "someone", I wouldn't hesitate to try to disciple and minister. When you see wrong, you judge. You must. The thought process is what do you do with it is what counts. And what I choose to do with what I see is to not do it.

 

I think the other real question is what is deemed modest. Everyone has a different idea of it.

 

:iagree:

[Crimson Wife]

Do you really think those are appropriate ways to talk about teenage girls? This is exactly what I'm talking about, how "modesty" is often a cover for having an attitude of total disrespect for women, especially young women, who don't meet our standards.

 

There's a *BIG* difference between calling an outfit "trashy" or "slutty" or "streetwalkerish" or whatever and calling a girl/woman those things.

 

A lot of outfits one sees these days are indeed trashy/slutty/etc. That doesn't mean I think the wearer is undeserving of respect. Maybe she's just insecure- I was as a college student when I wore a lot of immodest clothes.

[Peela]

I agree with most of what you are saying, but this

confuses me. Respecting women doesn't necessarily mean you have to respect every single individual and her behavior. I respect women, but if a woman lies, cheats, and steals, I don't respect her.

 

Likewise, if a girl shows up for a dance in this,

 

that just doesn't scream respect.

 

But there is no reason not to respect her anyway. She's a teenager, a young woman. Basically barely more than a child. Who knows what life circumstances etc she has had. Who knows what amazing person she might become later?

How many of us have gone through a stage in our lives where we behaved in ways that we now blush at?

I am so grateful for those in my life who looked past any superficial stuff to my immature but maturing heart and reached out anyway. Who respected me anyway.

How on earth does not respecting a young woman because of her dress or behaviour, make the world a better place? How is it a loving act?

Of course it is human to have a reaction to someone's image, but I feel that in order to come from our better selves, our more noble qualities, it is precisely those situations where we are most prone to harshly judge or withdraw respect, that we need to rise above our more base tendencies and love unconditionally, and to respect.

 

And those who say they respect the person but not the dress....I would say that is a pretty slippery slope. It would be very easy to use it as an excuse to treat someone with less than respect. When a teenager turns up here and something about him or her screams that this person has low self worth, or wants to be loved.....it is usually their dress or their behaviour doing that screaming. I don't treat them any differently from anyone else, with any less respect and common courtesy, even if I might set some boundaries around their behaviour in my home.

 

 

It's the respect of her as life, as a person made in the image of God. Though she doesn't SEE herself that way, it's nonetheless true and if we disrespect her, it only adds to her own disrespect. We don't respect people for what they dress as or who they see themselves as, we respect them because they are ALSO God's greatest creation.

 

:iagree:

The rest is really so superficial and shallow. These are people- and a person, every single one, is a miracle, an incredible creation of God.

 

I just don't get where in the Bible it says to judge everyone who is different to you, who has different values, who is less 'pure' than you.

It is one thing to be modest because one feels drawn to it, because it is in one's integrity to do so. Completely another to feel superior to people because of it, which is essentially what anyone is feeling if they use words like "tramp" to describe others.

 

 

I don't think all behaviors need to be respected. But, I do think that using degrading language to refer to women--or anybody--is inappropriate. I don't think it's ever okay to call a woman a "tramp" or "slut." There are ways to talk about their dress or behavior without resulting to misogynistic name-calling or in devaluing them as human beings, which is what that kind of language does.

 

.

 

I love what you have brought to this thread, twoforjoy. It is a really, really important point.

[NicksMama-Zack's Mama Too]

But there is no reason not to respect her anyway. She's a teenager, a young woman. Basically barely more than a child. Who knows what life circumstances etc she has had. Who knows what amazing person she might become later?

How many of us have gone through a stage in our lives where we behaved in ways that we now blush at?

I am so grateful for those in my life who looked past any superficial stuff to my immature but maturing heart and reached out anyway. Who respected me anyway.

How on earth does not respecting a young woman because of her dress or behaviour, make the world a better place? How is it a loving act?

Of course it is human to have a reaction to someone's image, but I feel that in order to come from our better selves, our more noble qualities, it is precisely those situations where we are most prone to harshly judge or withdraw respect, that we need to rise above our more base tendencies and love unconditionally, and to respect.

 

And those who say they respect the person but not the dress....I would say that is a pretty slippery slope. It would be very easy to use it as an excuse to treat someone with less than respect. When a teenager turns up here and something about him or her screams that this person has low self worth, or wants to be loved.....it is usually their dress or their behaviour doing that screaming. I don't treat them any differently from anyone else, with any less respect and common courtesy, even if I might set some boundaries around their behaviour in my home.

 

 

 

 

:iagree:

The rest is really so superficial and shallow. These are people- and a person, every single one, is a miracle, an incredible creation of God.

 

I just don't get where in the Bible it says to judge everyone who is different to you, who has different values, who is less 'pure' than you.

It is one thing to be modest because one feels drawn to it, because it is in one's integrity to do so. Completely another to feel superior to people because of it, which is essentially what anyone is feeling if they use words like "tramp" to describe others.

 

 

 

 

I love what you have brought to this thread, twoforjoy. It is a really, really important point.

 

Peela, I can't thank you enough for continuing to contribute to these boards.

 

K

[8circles]

But there is no reason not to respect her anyway. She's a teenager, a young woman. Basically barely more than a child. Who knows what life circumstances etc she has had. Who knows what amazing person she might become later?

How many of us have gone through a stage in our lives where we behaved in ways that we now blush at?

I am so grateful for those in my life who looked past any superficial stuff to my immature but maturing heart and reached out anyway. Who respected me anyway.

How on earth does not respecting a young woman because of her dress or behaviour, make the world a better place? How is it a loving act?

Of course it is human to have a reaction to someone's image, but I feel that in order to come from our better selves, our more noble qualities, it is precisely those situations where we are most prone to harshly judge or withdraw respect, that we need to rise above our more base tendencies and love unconditionally, and to respect.

 

And those who say they respect the person but not the dress....I would say that is a pretty slippery slope. It would be very easy to use it as an excuse to treat someone with less than respect. When a teenager turns up here and something about him or her screams that this person has low self worth, or wants to be loved.....it is usually their dress or their behaviour doing that screaming. I don't treat them any differently from anyone else, with any less respect and common courtesy, even if I might set some boundaries around their behaviour in my home.

 

 

 

 

:iagree:

The rest is really so superficial and shallow. These are people- and a person, every single one, is a miracle, an incredible creation of God.

 

I just don't get where in the Bible it says to judge everyone who is different to you, who has different values, who is less 'pure' than you.

It is one thing to be modest because one feels drawn to it, because it is in one's integrity to do so. Completely another to feel superior to people because of it, which is essentially what anyone is feeling if they use words like "tramp" to describe others.

 

 

 

 

I love what you have brought to this thread, twoforjoy. It is a really, really important point.

 

:iagree:Especially the bold. Peela, so often you speak my language. To judge on appearance might be natural, it doesn't mean its right.

[UnsinkableKristen]

Really, the guy is going to go for the one that's easy. And if that's how you dress, well then....

 

 

 

I really hope that you aren't suggesting that anyone is "asking for it" and that it's just some weird internet miscommunication.

 

 

 

 

Peela, I truly appreciate what you've both written. Very wise words.

 

Natalieclare - I think you are spot on with regards to the difficulties that lie here. It is a very, very hard line to walk.

 

 

Again, this thread has been so very interesting to me and thank you all who are participating. Much to think on.

[MrsMe]

I really hope that you aren't suggesting that anyone is "asking for it" ......

 

 

 

 

Sheesh....no.

[Perry]

But there is no reason not to respect her anyway.

How on earth does not respecting a young woman because of her dress or behaviour, make the world a better place? How is it a loving act?

I think we may be using the term respect differently. I looked around for some definitions, and they vary wildly.

 

From wiki

Respect denotes both a positive feeling of esteem for a person or other entity (such as a nation or a religion), and also specific actions and conduct representative of that esteem.

From dictionary.com

esteem for or a sense of the worth or excellence of a person, a personal quality or ability, or something considered as a manifestation of a personal quality or ability: I have great respect for her judgment.

 

Wiki is closer to what I am talking about. That kind of dress does not conjure up feelings of positive esteem for me. OTOH, it absolutely doesn't mean I make any judgments about someone's worth!

 

My kids have many friends whose dress and behavior make me cringe. My own kids make me cringe sometimes. But I still love them and accept them. I don't always respect their choices, but it doesn't change the way I feel about their worth.

Edited July 19, 2011 by Perry

[LisaKinVA]

For my daughters, this time would be never. Not only my position, but they are actually more concerned about modesty than I am...they would never wear a bikini...they hate the low rider jeans not only b/c they are low but they are uncomfortable...if I buy them a workout top for rowing or dance, they will throw something on top...they are not fearful or neurotic, they have a sincere desire to not make their body 'the show'....they want it to be about who they are not 'what' they wear.

 

And they see what other girls wear and those that dress provocatively have parallel character issues that concern them...it may be insecurities, overly flirtatious, etc. But, in some cases clothes may not make the man but they sure can affect him.

 

When I was referring to "dressing provocatively" and "time/place" for it... it is in the context of marriage. My dh likes me to dress for him... when we're alone (and I would think others did too). ;) So, yes... I own things from Victoria's Secret. But, only my dh knows what they look like on me!

 

As far as my brother telling my dd to go put on some clothes... yes. It's happened more than once. Yes. It has caused grief (really irking me!). And yes, if we were going to THEIR house, I would make sure my girls were wearing their "most conservative clothing" (which would be the long knit dresses/knit leggings... Hannah Andersen Style).

Edited July 19, 2011 by LisaK in VA

[Perry]

How many of us have gone through a stage in our lives where we behaved in ways that we now blush at?

I am so grateful for those in my life who looked past any superficial stuff to my immature but maturing heart and reached out anyway. Who respected me anyway.

I sure made plenty of bad decisions when I was younger, but I don't expect people to have respected me for it. Loved me anyway and treated me kindly, yes. Respected me, no. But again, I think we're using the term differently. It doesn't have anything to do with someone's essence or worth, for me.

 

 

I don't consider dressing in a very provocative way to be superficial. To me it reveals much about a girl's feelings of self-worth and self-respect. I feel sad for those girls, and I doubt if they're very happy.

[LisaKinVA]

On the subject of masterbation, and marital problems....

 

I would say that (1) masterbation (apart from porn addictions), is perfectly normal... and while not encouraged in my house, is not going to be a hill I die on, either. (2) My dh and I very much enjoy our s*x lives, and he has no problem choosing me over a 40-minute shower. He also feels at ease to give me a break (if I'm tired, or whatever), and does not make me feel like it is *my* responsibility to keep him satisfied every day of the week.

 

I have two very close relatives who "do not believe in masterbation for any reason." One, is 65 and has NEVER experienced "O." She is VERY much longing for SATISFYING physical attention. Her mate does not care if she "enjoys herself or not." He has a RIGHT, and it's "good for his prostate."

 

These two have one of the MOST unhealthy sex lives I know. The female cannot stand to dress/undress in front of her mate (it's immodest, and she feels "cheap," he "stares," and then he's "going to want s*x). The male... well, lets just say that streaking is very much in his nature. :tongue_smilie: I can't believe I'm their progeny!

[HRAAB]

But there is no reason not to respect her anyway. She's a teenager, a young woman. Basically barely more than a child. Who knows what life circumstances etc she has had. Who knows what amazing person she might become later?

How many of us have gone through a stage in our lives where we behaved in ways that we now blush at?

I am so grateful for those in my life who looked past any superficial stuff to my immature but maturing heart and reached out anyway. Who respected me anyway.

How on earth does not respecting a young woman because of her dress or behaviour, make the world a better place? How is it a loving act?

Of course it is human to have a reaction to someone's image, but I feel that in order to come from our better selves, our more noble qualities, it is precisely those situations where we are most prone to harshly judge or withdraw respect, that we need to rise above our more base tendencies and love unconditionally, and to respect.

 

And those who say they respect the person but not the dress....I would say that is a pretty slippery slope. It would be very easy to use it as an excuse to treat someone with less than respect. When a teenager turns up here and something about him or her screams that this person has low self worth, or wants to be loved.....it is usually their dress or their behaviour doing that screaming. I don't treat them any differently from anyone else, with any less respect and common courtesy, even if I might set some boundaries around their behaviour in my home.

 

 

 

 

:iagree:

The rest is really so superficial and shallow. These are people- and a person, every single one, is a miracle, an incredible creation of God.

 

I just don't get where in the Bible it says to judge everyone who is different to you, who has different values, who is less 'pure' than you.

It is one thing to be modest because one feels drawn to it, because it is in one's integrity to do so. Completely another to feel superior to people because of it, which is essentially what anyone is feeling if they use words like "tramp" to describe others.

 

 

 

 

I love what you have brought to this thread, twoforjoy. It is a really, really important point.

 

Thank you for saying that.

 

Also, I have found that I don't need to use other people in a negative way (example) to teach my children and pass on my moral values. In fact I think there's another lesson being taught when we hold others up as negative examples, and that could be showing our children to look at others and judge ourselves against them. Not something I want to pass on.

[justamouse]

But there is no reason not to respect her anyway. She's a teenager, a young woman. Basically barely more than a child. Who knows what life circumstances etc she has had. Who knows what amazing person she might become later?

 

How many of us have gone through a stage in our lives where we behaved in ways that we now blush at?

 

I am so grateful for those in my life who looked past any superficial stuff to my immature but maturing heart and reached out anyway. Who respected me anyway.

 

How on earth does not respecting a young woman because of her dress or behaviour, make the world a better place? How is it a loving act?

 

Of course it is human to have a reaction to someone's image, but I feel that in order to come from our better selves, our more noble qualities, it is precisely those situations where we are most prone to harshly judge or withdraw respect, that we need to rise above our more base tendencies and love unconditionally, and to respect.

 

And those who say they respect the person but not the dress....I would say that is a pretty slippery slope. It would be very easy to use it as an excuse to treat someone with less than respect. When a teenager turns up here and something about him or her screams that this person has low self worth, or wants to be loved.....it is usually their dress or their behaviour doing that screaming. I don't treat them any differently from anyone else, with any less respect and common courtesy, even if I might set some boundaries around their behaviour in my home.

 

The rest is really so superficial and shallow. These are people- and a person, every single one, is a miracle, an incredible creation of God.

 

I just don't get where in the Bible it says to judge everyone who is different to you, who has different values, who is less 'pure' than you.

It is one thing to be modest because one feels drawn to it, because it is in one's integrity to do so. Completely another to feel superior to people because of it, which is essentially what anyone is feeling if they use words like "tramp" to describe others.

 

I love what you have brought to this thread, twoforjoy. It is a really, really important point.

 

:iagree: