What do you make of this mysterious experience? (CC)

[Ginevra]

This is an old event, but I'm doing some writing, so I was just revisiting it and I wanted to ask Hive Christians how they perceive this.

 

Some of you have heard before that I had a baby girl in 2003 who died in labor. To be honest, this really wrecked me spiritually and that is what I'm writing about. But back in the aftermath of my daughter's death as I continually grasped at spiritual meaning and tried to make sense of something so senseless, a very strange event happened.

 

I'm guessing this was probably about 3 months after my daughter's birth/death. I was at my husband's office, working as I usually did. A delivery man came with a package; he was neither our usual UPS man, nor a delivery vendor I'd ever heard of. It was just Joe Schmoe's Delivery Service or what-not.

 

So, Joe Schmoe came into the office and started talking about Jesus and faith with the fervor of a street preacher. I don't even know how the conversation happened - after all, it really should have taken 2 minutes while I signed a form and received the package. But, however it happened, he said, "...But my old life ended 2 years ago when I had my eyes peeled..." (he meant his spiritual eyes). He then described his dramatic conversion, how he had been on drugs and drunk and was in a terrible accident, a lady who lived where he wrecked invited him in and nursed him to health. He had a mystical experience and was saved. So, he told me this story and then he rambled onto some other topics of faith and started on the topic that, "God wants 100% first place for every follower! He is a jealous God and will not be second place to anything! If I care more about my business (pointing to his truck) than I care about God, He will take it from me." (Then, the zinger...) He stabbed his finger towards me in an accusing fashion and boomed, "Whatever you love more than God, THAT is what he will take from you!!!"

 

Friends - I tell you, it felt like he physically stabbed me in the heart. I actually clutched my necklace, which had my daughter's charm on it and almost doubled over. I thought for a moment he knew my story, that he was speaking for God, delivering this awful, horrifying explanation for why I lost my daughter. I don't even know if it occurred to him that what he said affected me so drastically. That may have even been the end of his impromptu sermon; I don't really remember another thing but that he left shortly after.

 

I never saw him again. I have never heard of that delivery service again and I have wondered many times what that was. Was it God? Would God do that? Was it Satan? But if it was Satan, how could God allow someone who seemed to be sincerely speaking for God to speak...not for God?

 

Or maybe it was just a strange delivery guy who said something coincidental, but I don't actually believe that.

 

If you're still with me after that, fire away - what do you think of that from a spiritual perspective?

[Mrs Mungo]

I think he was a baby Christian who was fervent and misled. Nearly anyone could have felt condemned and hurt by that story. Most of us have lost someone that we loved terribly.

[KnitWit]

I think he was a baby Christian who was fervent and misled. Nearly anyone could have felt condemned and hurt by that story. Most of us have lost someone that we loved terribly.

 

I completely agree with this.

 

Unfortunately, I have heard that same stuff preached from a pulpit along with other *fear inducing* sermons. I vehemently disagree with it and I DON'T see that taught in the Bible.

[Parrothead]

I cannot believe that God took your daughter away because you love her more than Him.

 

:grouphug:

[dangermom]

That is not why your baby died.

[mazakaal]

.

Edited June 30, 2011 by MeganP

[GWOB]

God doesn't kill babies to teach us something. I've had 2 miscarriages, and I just cannot believe my loving God killed my babies because I was an idiot.

[texasmama]

:grouphug: I don't believe that God sends people to the doorsteps of grieving mothers to heap condemnation on them. :grouphug:

[Carol in Cal.]

What I think is that he was wrong.

 

He was taking his own interpretation of his own experience, and generalizing it in a way that is inconsistent with Scripture and with God's character.

 

It's true that God wants first place in our lives, but there is no evidence in the Bible or anywhere else that He goes around and takes everyone's most precious possession to gain that place. None. Quite the contrary.

 

The only thing that even approaches that is the story of the rich young man. Jesus tells him to sell everything that he has and follow Him. The man goes away sorrowful because he has great wealth. Jesus doesn't take it from him. Instead, He asks for first place. And He shows that the man can't justify himself, that He still needs a Savior.

 

Jesus wept when He heard that Lazarus died, even though He knew that He could and would raise him from the dead. I am convinced that He wept in sympathy, and that He has that same compassion for us. I believe that He has that compassion for you--and that he loved your child more than even you did.

[Impish]

:grouphug: I don't believe that God sends people to the doorsteps of grieving mothers to heap condemnation on them. :grouphug:

:iagree:

[KnitWit]

:grouphug: I don't believe that God sends people to the doorsteps of grieving mothers to heap condemnation on them. :grouphug:

 

For real.

[justamouse]

Run. RUN the hell away. Don't let that thought settle into your head one instant. Don't let it's vines pull you down into that morass.

 

Feel sorry for that man, that he was so ill taught, and pray that he never falls into a situation where he has to unknot himself from that destructive worldview.

 

That is not who God is.

[KnitWit]

Oh ((((Danielle))))) :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

[MelAR05]

I don't believe that God sends people to the doorsteps of grieving mothers to heap condemnation on them.

 

:iagree: Well said!!

[*Inna*]

Run. RUN the hell away. Don't let that thought settle into your head one instant. Don't let it's vines pull you down into that morass.

 

Feel sorry for that man, that he was so ill taught, and pray that he never falls into a situation where he has to unknot himself from that destructive worldview.

 

That is not who God is.

:iagree:

[Aquinas Academy]

Run. RUN the hell away. Don't let that thought settle into your head one instant. Don't let it's vines pull you down into that morass.

 

Feel sorry for that man, that he was so ill taught, and pray that he never falls into a situation where he has to unknot himself from that destructive worldview.

 

That is not who God is.

:iagree:

 

:grouphug:Danielle, I am so sorry.:grouphug:

[Ginevra]

I think he was a baby Christian who was fervent and misled. Nearly anyone could have felt condemned and hurt by that story. Most of us have lost someone that we loved terribly.

 

It sounds a little stupid and myopic, but I didn't really think of that. :tongue_smilie:

 

:grouphug: I don't believe that God sends people to the doorsteps of grieving mothers to heap condemnation on them. :grouphug:

 

Thanks for that. The tears are flowing reading this and it shows me that that wound is not healed as I might have thought.

[elegantlion]

I've seen a lot of people I know and care about grieving lately. I've been troubled by people I don't know that are hurting and grieving. In my search to find words to comfort them, some of them not christians, I keep running across these trite little saying that sound good and look good on a poster in fancy script. With my hurting heart I've read those words and realized how terrible they could sound to a person in real pain. They're not helpful. In the past I might have looked at those and thought they would be encouraging. The reality is they are more like pouring salt on an already wounded heart.

 

My realization is that those words and sayings the encourage me are for me alone. I agree that this man was a new christian was still in the everything is good phase. You were in a different spot, you took his words to apply to your situation, they don't. My God doesn't do stuff like that. I believe in messages from God, I believe His voice can speak through people or events, but so can the devil.

 

I'll admit, I'm struggling with all the pain in the world and the the fairness of it all. But God does not rip open our wounds.

 

I'm very sorry for your loss. :grouphug:

[Donna T.]

I am so sorry that your baby girl died. I am so sorry that this experience with this man caused you pain. I can't know the heart of this man but I do know the heart of God and I know He didn't take your baby from you as any sort of punishment or test. I distrust Christians who claim to be so because of mystical experiences. I personally do not believe that God calls people today through mystical experiences. I believe He only calls today through the preaching and hearing of the Word of God, the Bible. And, when one hears the Word and believes the Word, he is born again and becomes a Christian. So, perhaps this man is misguided, we can't know for sure if there was more to his testimony. Regardless, God loves you and He loves your baby. There is no Biblical basis whatsoever to conclude that God would use a man to speak to you in this way for any reason.

 

If this incident caused you pain, then I am sure it was not God. I do believe in Satanic attacks, having personally experienced that myself. Satan can and does speak as if he were God, in fact, that is exactly how he speaks. And, yes, God does allow that. Satan is the prince of this world and as such he can do many terrible things. He can use men and circumstances to oppress us, though I doubt this man that spoke to you had the intention to be used for mischief or harm.

 

The important thing is that you not allow either Satan or any man to steal from you your personal walk with God. God will take care of Satan, you can be sure of that, and He is taking care of your little one today. This life is temporary. You will see your little baby girl again one day.

 

I hope you will turn to God's Word and spend alot of time in it. Read it, meditate on it, memorize it, but most of all believe it. God will comfort you through the Bible, He will give you peace through the Bible, and whatever lessons He may or may not have for you through these things will become clearer to you through your meeting with Him through the Bible.

 

I know it's hard, but try not to dwell on this man. You can trust God, He knows all things, and the important thing is that you turn to Him when you hurt. He is the Comforter and He wants to be that for you through all of the painful experiences of life, whatever they are.

 

Blessings, praying for you.

[texasmama]

Thanks for that. The tears are flowing reading this and it shows me that that wound is not healed as I might have thought.

 

 

:grouphug: You are welcome, dear.:grouphug:

[mom4him]

I completely agree with this.

 

Unfortunately, I have heard that same stuff preached from a pulpit along with other *fear inducing* sermons. I vehemently disagree with it and I DON'T see that taught in the Bible.

:iagree:God is a jealous God and He does want our all. He is a good God. Would you do that to your child? of course not.

When bad things happen I believe we always have to remember we live in a fallen world. Sometimes we make choices that the consequence brings about bad things but for the most part those difficult things are simply a result of living in that fallen world.

[Murphy101]

I think he was speaking out his butt and you had the misfortune to inhale get the fumes at a vulnerable moment.

 

Children are a blessing for how ever short or long we have them.

 

Personally, our loss of babies have taught us to love the children we do have even more.

 

If God were to want us to learn any lesson about love from loss, surely that is more likely to be it than the nonsense that misguided zealot randomly spewed at you.

:grouphug:

[BamaTanya]

Beloved, the love you have for your children, including your precious Lydia, was designed by Him and given by Him.

 

I have heard this man's brand of teaching before, but I find it inconsistent with our Father's nature.

 

I am so sorry for the pain you've suffered, but there was nothing -- NOTHING -- in it that was punishment from Him. I believe He feels your grief with you and His shoulders are big enough for any sadness or anger it brings. Still.

 

:grouphug:

[Chris in VA]

I agree with Mrs. Mungo--just a misguided man overgeneralizing his own experience.

 

:grouphug:

 

There's nothing Satan likes better than making the Christian doubt the goodness and intentions of God. Anything he can use to cause distrust of the Father thrills him to no end. He doesn't care about hurting YOU, he cares about hurting GOD by hurting you--because you matter so much to and are so precious to God. Do you see? God loves you and your child. He loves this misguided man, too, and perhaps will allow someone to teach him more completely.

 

:grouphug:

[CalicoKat]

That is not why your baby died.

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Ginevra]

I think he was speaking out his butt and you had the misfortune to inhale get the fumes at a vulnerable moment.

 

Children are a blessing for how ever short or long we have them.

 

Personally, our loss of babies have taught us to love the children we do have even more.

 

If God were to want us to learn any lesson about love from loss, surely that is more likely to be it than the nonsense that misguided zealot randomly spewed at you.

:grouphug:

 

:lol: That was hilarious and eloquent at the same time and not many people can be that simultaneously!

 

 

Beloved, the love you have for your children, including your precious Lydia, was designed by Him and given by Him.

 

I have heard this man's brand of teaching before, but I find it inconsistent with our Father's nature.

 

I am so sorry for the pain you've suffered, but there was nothing -- NOTHING -- in it that was punishment from Him. I believe He feels your grief with you and His shoulders are big enough for any sadness or anger it brings. Still.

 

:grouphug:

 

Aww, thank you so much for calling her by name. That is so precious to me.

 

I agree with Mrs. Mungo--just a misguided man overgeneralizing his own experience.

 

:grouphug:

 

There's nothing Satan likes better than making the Christian doubt the goodness and intentions of God. Anything he can use to cause distrust of the Father thrills him to no end. He doesn't care about hurting YOU, he cares about hurting GOD by hurting you--because you matter so much to and are so precious to God. Do you see? God loves you and your child. He loves this misguided man, too, and perhaps will allow someone to teach him more completely.

 

:grouphug:

 

Strangely enough, I see it better for your having said.

[HappyCrazyMama]

Beloved, the love you have for your children, including your precious Lydia, was designed by Him and given by Him.

 

I have heard this man's brand of teaching before, but I find it inconsistent with our Father's nature.

 

I am so sorry for the pain you've suffered, but there was nothing -- NOTHING -- in it that was punishment from Him. I believe He feels your grief with you and His shoulders are big enough for any sadness or anger it brings. Still.

 

:grouphug:

 

:iagree:I'm in tears, what an awful thing to carry around after such a tragedy. :grouphug:

[mhg]

The Bible says in Revelation that Satan is "the accuser of the brethren."

I don't have my Bible here, but in that passage it says that he (satan) works to accuse the brethren day and night -- any chance he gets through any means (this idiot man, in this case).

 

This man's words made you feel accused and like some sin (this idiot-man's implication) brought about God's punishment. I wonder if he's even a believer at all given this screwed up understanding of God/grace/the gospel. To imply that we're still having to work for salvation and get it right and be perfect lest God deal us a mean blow is completely opposite of the GOOD NEWS.

 

I too have heard this false brand of Christianity:

good works -- prosperity/God's grace as manifested by no suffering

bad works -- God deals you a mighty blow

and it's just heresy.

 

Loving your daughter is of God and is certainly not idolatry.

And, even if you or I have some form of idolatry or sin in our hearts/lives, then this is certainly not the way Christ deals with it because He has already DEALT with it on the cross once and for all.

 

Don't let Satan accuse you through this dude anymore.

[LittleIzumi]

:grouphug: I don't believe that God sends people to the doorsteps of grieving mothers to heap condemnation on them. :grouphug:

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

:grouphug::grouphug:

[GardenTenders/Kim]

:grouphug:

 

Sometimes things happen and we just don't know why. Your daughter's passing was not a punishment and thinking that when bad things happen your faith is at fault is immature.

[Liz CA]

Yes, those who have just learned of the amazing power of redemption are often going around screaming at the top of their lungs - not always tactfully.

This may well have been the case here.

I can see though where this would freak you out a bit so soon after such a traumatic experience! I really don't think God "send" him, honey, because God would have been so much gentler with you. After all, God knows what it's like losing a child!

[asta]

Some of you have heard before that I had a baby girl in 2003 who died in labor. To be honest, this really wrecked me spiritually and that is what I'm writing about. But back in the aftermath of my daughter's death as I continually grasped at spiritual meaning and tried to make sense of something so senseless, a very strange event happened.

 

I'm guessing this was probably about 3 months after my daughter's birth/death. I was at my husband's office, working as I usually did. A delivery man came with a package; he was neither our usual UPS man, nor a delivery vendor I'd ever heard of. It was just Joe Schmoe's Delivery Service or what-not.

 

So, Joe Schmoe came into the office and started talking about Jesus and faith with the fervor of a street preacher. I don't even know how the conversation happened - after all, it really should have taken 2 minutes while I signed a form and received the package. But, however it happened, he said, "...But my old life ended 2 years ago when I had my eyes peeled..." (he meant his spiritual eyes). He then described his dramatic conversion, how he had been on drugs and drunk and was in a terrible accident, a lady who lived where he wrecked invited him in and nursed him to health. He had a mystical experience and was saved.

 

So, he told me this story and then he rambled onto some other topics of faith and started on the topic that, "God wants 100% first place for every follower! He is a jealous God and will not be second place to anything! If I care more about my business (pointing to his truck) than I care about God, He will take it from me." (Then, the zinger...) He stabbed his finger towards me in an accusing fashion and boomed, "Whatever you love more than God, THAT is what he will take from you!!!"

 

Will.

 

Future tense.

 

He said "will". Not "has".

 

Your situation was in the past, even though it was still painful for you. It was not in the future.

 

Friends - I tell you, it felt like he physically stabbed me in the heart. I actually clutched my necklace, which had my daughter's charm on it and almost doubled over. I thought for a moment he knew my story, that he was speaking for God, delivering this awful, horrifying explanation for why I lost my daughter. I don't even know if it occurred to him that what he said affected me so drastically. That may have even been the end of his impromptu sermon; I don't really remember another thing but that he left shortly after.

 

I never saw him again. I have never heard of that delivery service again and I have wondered many times what that was. Was it God? Would God do that? Was it Satan? But if it was Satan, how could God allow someone who seemed to be sincerely speaking for God to speak...not for God?

 

No one on earth can tell you that. Only you can decide that for yourself.

 

Or maybe it was just a strange delivery guy who said something coincidental, but I don't actually believe that.

 

And it sounds as if you have decided.

 

If you're still with me after that, fire away - what do you think of that from a spiritual perspective?

 

A priest once told me that most people wander through life listening to the "pre-set" stations on the radio. Not only that - those are the only stations they are even able to "hear". Some people, though, are able to hear what is broadcast "in-between". Sometimes all of the time, sometimes only once in their lifetime.

 

So... I guess my take on the situation would be, why are you thinking about this situation now, and what, if any changes have you made in your spiritual life since that time period?

 

 

asta

[AvasMom]

Honestly, I don't think it was God who dropped him into your life. His words *sounded* spiritual but I think he was a wolf in sheep's clothing. God would not send a message to discourage and condemn you for loving your child too much. People ask "Why does God allow..." all the time and I believe that free will is the answer. God allows us to choose to follow and listen to Him of our own free will and subsequently allows us to choose the alternative. This guy could have been a new Christian with a big mouth who had no idea his words made such a horrific connection with you.

[Ginevra]

A priest once told me that most people wander through life listening to the "pre-set" stations on the radio. Not only that - those are the only stations they are even able to "hear". Some people, though, are able to hear what is broadcast "in-between". Sometimes all of the time, sometimes only once in their lifetime.

 

So... I guess my take on the situation would be, why are you thinking about this situation now, and what, if any changes have you made in your spiritual life since that time period?

 

 

I'm thinking about it now because I'm writing about the death of my daughter and the spiritual quagmire that came after. That odd incident was (or is) important in the questions and mess that I struggled over. I didn't tell many people about that incident at the time and it was too raw then anyway. And I have to laugh, because I made many changes in my spiritual life since then, some for the better, some for the worse...and that story could fill a book, which is why I'm writing it. ;)

 

What struck me as particularly "supernatural" about the event was that my contact with that man was incidental and isolated. What is the likelihood that an independent delivery man would randomly come and talk about his faith and deliver this "sermon"? For good or for evil, I think it was intentionally orchestrated by someone. Even 8 years later, I am still seeking an element that makes sense - any sense!

 

The worst part of losing Lydia was not the actual fact of her death. That part was somewhat easier to resolve. We have mortal bodies that are subject to illness, injury and accidents and we will all succumb to one or more of those thieves eventually, so it's actually not terribly hard to reconcile that for my daughter, it came at the beginning and not some time 92 years down the road.

 

The worst part for me has been what it did to my faith, which was obviously far more fragile than I imagined. It is hard to put together the the entire story and find anything rational in it. It is hard to see any goodness of God in the way it wrecked me, in the poisoned relationships that happened, in the severe way doubt took over my soul.

[Sushi's Mom]

You had never heard of that delivery company before, probably because it was new.

 

You have never heard of that delivery company again, probably because it went out of business quickly. The guy had no repeat business because nobody wanted to hear his sermons.

[SnowWhite]

That sort of talk reminds me suspiciously of Job's comforters.

 

Job 4: 7Remember, I pray thee, who ever perished, being innocent? or where were the righteous cut off? 8Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same.

9By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed.

 

 

So if you can answer for yourself the question of who sent Job's friends to him to spout accusations, condemnation and false comfort, that same answer should tell you the root of the ramblings which wounded your heart.

[DawnM]

He was highly inappropriate. One because he was on the JOB and you could have reported it. If he goes around doing that he will not have a job long! And two, because it would have been inappropriate for any human to say to another unless he is in the pulpit talking in some wacky doctrine church service.

 

I have no patience for this type of teaching because some of it is similar to what I grew up learning......we were all one step away from hell every day and needed to repent, repent, repent or God would somehow "get" us. That isn't how they worded it, but that was the gist.

 

I am so sorry you had to deal with this man, but he is NOT speaking the truth at all.

 

Dawn

[kchara]

That sort of talk reminds me suspiciously of Job's comforters.

 

 

 

So if you can answer for yourself the question of who sent Job's friends to him to spout accusations, condemnation and false comfort, that same answer should tell you the root of the ramblings which wounded your heart.

 

:iagree: :grouphug:

[texasmama]

The worst part for me has been what it did to my faith, which was obviously far more fragile than I imagined. It is hard to put together the the entire story and find anything rational in it. It is hard to see any goodness of God in the way it wrecked me, in the poisoned relationships that happened, in the severe way doubt took over my soul.

 

:grouphug: I understand this, though I have not lost a child. Some events are watershed ones, defining ones, ones which separate your life into a 'before" and an "after". I call it "crossing the bridge" when one experiences these events. I have noted that since my own "crossing the bridge", the people I relate to are others who have "crossed". Those on the other side will not understand until they cross so I have stopped looking for understanding there.

 

I have recently enjoyed the book One Thousand Gifts. Although I can't say that I have come to a place of understanding, I have received some comfort, which is a "good enough" result for me at this stage of the journey.

 

It sounds to me that you grieve life on the other side of the bridge, when you had a faith which made sense to you and a life without the sharp pain of a loss of this magnitude.:grouphug:

 

(Loss has come up several times lately on the board. I respond to the depth of losses based on my personal experience but also as a professional. I have led two Grief and Loss groups through my church in the past several years so this is a topic which is very close to my heart. Just felt the need to explain this for some reason...)

[G5052]

We've been through hard things as a family. Not the loss of a child, but coming up on ten years of horrific medical problems, disability, lost court cases over the medical/disability issues, an elderly family member with violent dementia, and on and on.

 

And I've had incidents as you describe with people supposedly giving me a "Word from the Lord," digging into our lives to find "why," people telling me that we don't deserve all this because we are so "good," empty platitudes, etc. etc. I've had plenty of times where I wanted to completely withdraw from other people because the emotional pain they caused was so bad on top of everything we were dealing with.

 

I finally came to the point that I realized that my faith was about me alone. As long as I am personally at peace with God and man, what other people say really doesn't matter. Not a bit. So people say odd things to me, make comments about events they feel that we didn't handle well, etc. etc. and I just ignore it. As long as I'm right with my Lord, I ignore it. I don't know why we've suffered, but I know that we can get through it with the Lord's help. One day at a time...

[Orthodox6]

I would believe that the delivery man is an informal, self-designated preacher who forces his personal experiences upon other people and who assumes that "one size fits all". This is the style, I gather, of many televangelists and is a common preaching style within some church congregations. It was coincidence, only, that he landed on something so deepfully and rightfully painful to you. I'm sorry that you had to suffer so from an utter stranger.

 

:grouphug:

[OnTheBrink]

There's nothing Satan likes better than making the Christian doubt the goodness and intentions of God. Anything he can use to cause distrust of the Father thrills him to no end. He doesn't care about hurting YOU, he cares about hurting GOD by hurting you--because you matter so much to and are so precious to God. Do you see? God loves you and your child. He loves this misguided man, too, and perhaps will allow someone to teach him more completely.

 

:grouphug:

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

Honestly, I don't think it was God who dropped him into your life. His words *sounded* spiritual but I think he was a wolf in sheep's clothing. God would not send a message to discourage and condemn you for loving your child too much.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

And, I think anyone, regardless of how strong their faith is, would be reeling after the sudden loss of a child. Or any loss of a child, sudden or not. I don't think your pain and grief is indicative of being spiritually weak. You loved that baby and that's not sinful. How many analogies in the bible compare the love of God with the love of a new mother, or a nursing mother, etc? No, I don't believe God took that precious baby to punish you; you were not in sin by loving and wanting her. I can't begin to answer why she died. But I'm completely confident it wasn't because you were in sin and I think that "delivery" man delivered a bunch of crap to you and caused you much pain.

 

I'm so sorry for your loss and for your pain. :grouphug:

[Ginevra]

That sort of talk reminds me suspiciously of Job's comforters.

 

 

 

So if you can answer for yourself the question of who sent Job's friends to him to spout accusations, condemnation and false comfort, that same answer should tell you the root of the ramblings which wounded your heart.

 

That's a good point. I would read Job from time to time and I would say, "Well, at least my husband stood by me!" Job's wife was as bad as his "friends." Somehow, our marriage withstood that hurricane. In the first few days, I was terribly afraid that dh would blame me for our daughter's death, because I chose a birth center over a hospital. I do think something miraculous happened to allow him to not heap blame for that on me, which could have been the end of us.

 

:grouphug: I understand this, though I have not lost a child. Some events are watershed ones, defining ones, ones which separate your life into a 'before" and an "after". I call it "crossing the bridge" when one experiences these events. I have noted that since my own "crossing the bridge", the people I relate to are others who have "crossed". Those on the other side will not understand until they cross so I have stopped looking for understanding there.

 

I have recently enjoyed the book One Thousand Gifts. Although I can't say that I have come to a place of understanding, I have received some comfort, which is a "good enough" result for me at this stage of the journey.

 

It sounds to me that you grieve life on the other side of the bridge, when you had a faith which made sense to you and a life without the sharp pain of a loss of this magnitude.:grouphug:

 

(Loss has come up several times lately on the board. I respond to the depth of losses based on my personal experience but also as a professional. I have led two Grief and Loss groups through my church in the past several years so this is a topic which is very close to my heart. Just felt the need to explain this for some reason...)

 

That is so profoundly true. The time in my life just prior to my daughter's death was a time I look back on as the happiest time in my life. I was deliriously happy and felt incredibly blessed and protected and rewarded by God. It was the highest point in my faith (easy to have faith when life is good beyond your wildest dreams), my relationships (many were fair-weather) and my emotional health. I had no idea the storm that was coming in each of these areas I so prized. I do miss that naive time of child-like faith.

[KnitWit]

You had never heard of that delivery company before' date=' probably because it was new.

 

You have never heard of that delivery company again, probably because it went out of business quickly. The guy had no repeat business because nobody wanted to hear his sermons.[/quote']

 

exactly

[texasmama]

That is so profoundly true. The time in my life just prior to my daughter's death was a time I look back on as the happiest time in my life. I was deliriously happy and felt incredibly blessed and protected and rewarded by God. It was the highest point in my faith (easy to have faith when life is good beyond your wildest dreams), my relationships (many were fair-weather) and my emotional health. I had no idea the storm that was coming in each of these areas I so prized. I do miss that naive time of child-like faith.

 

I have a time like that, as well, which felt like the zenith of my entire life, followed by a sharp downfall in every area. For me, it was during my pregnancy with my third child, the summer and fall of 2002. I didn't know what was coming. It is still coming in some areas, though other areas have resolved into a dull ache. I have referred to myself during this time in my life as "naive", as well. I do prize those memories, though, and they bring more joy now than pain, which is an improvement. I no longer long for the past. It has its place, but I have come to live in the present and have come to accept that some things are never completely resolved in this life. More :grouphug: to you.

[asta]

I'm thinking about it now because I'm writing about the death of my daughter and the spiritual quagmire that came after. That odd incident was (or is) important in the questions and mess that I struggled over. I didn't tell many people about that incident at the time and it was too raw then anyway. And I have to laugh, because I made many changes in my spiritual life since then, some for the better, some for the worse...and that story could fill a book, which is why I'm writing it. ;)

 

What struck me as particularly "supernatural" about the event was that my contact with that man was incidental and isolated. What is the likelihood that an independent delivery man would randomly come and talk about his faith and deliver this "sermon"? For good or for evil, I think it was intentionally orchestrated by someone. Even 8 years later, I am still seeking an element that makes sense - any sense!

 

The worst part of losing Lydia was not the actual fact of her death. That part was somewhat easier to resolve. We have mortal bodies that are subject to illness, injury and accidents and we will all succumb to one or more of those thieves eventually, so it's actually not terribly hard to reconcile that for my daughter, it came at the beginning and not some time 92 years down the road.

 

The worst part for me has been what it did to my faith, which was obviously far more fragile than I imagined. It is hard to put together the the entire story and find anything rational in it. It is hard to see any goodness of God in the way it wrecked me, in the poisoned relationships that happened, in the severe way doubt took over my soul.

 

Take a second to re-read what I just bolded.

 

Now re-read this part of your initial post.

 

... he said, "...But my old life ended 2 years ago when I had my eyes peeled..." (he meant his spiritual eyes). He then described his dramatic conversion, how he had been on drugs and drunk and was in a terrible accident, a lady who lived where he wrecked invited him in and nursed him to health. He had a mystical experience and was saved. So, he told me this story and then he rambled onto some other topics of faith and started on the topic that, "God wants 100% first place for every follower! He is a jealous God and will not be second place to anything! If I care more about my business (pointing to his truck) than I care about God, He will take it from me." (Then, the zinger...) He stabbed his finger towards me in an accusing fashion and boomed, "Whatever you love more than God, THAT is what he will take from you!!!"

 

You were wrecked (and felt as if you would never heal, due, in part, to a "spiritual quagmire").

 

You met someone who was wrecked (and made it through to the other side, due, in part, as far as he was concerned, to faith).

 

You could see no goodness in God.

 

You met someone who told you that God wanted to be #1 for everyone.

 

 

Someone told you that last bolded bit... and you mention that you feel you've had poisoned relationships and a severe doubt surrounding your soul.

 

So I guess the last question(s) I would ask would be: have you put God first in your life over earthly things? (eg: was that one of the changes that occurred) I hate that question, by the way. I think it sounds like something a televangelist would say. I wish there was a better version - something like "have you realized that all of the cr@p on Earth really doesn't matter in the long run, and that the real answers aren't to be found here?"

 

which leads to my second question/statement (one I learned from my mom, who lost my oldest sister when she was 2 days old):

 

You don't always get an answer.

 

It sucks. And you cry. And you hurt like no one should hurt. But it isn't because God is a bad God or God hates you. It's just because that's how things are, and neither you nor I are ready for the answers yet. It's part of being human. And when it is your time (or my mom's), you will have your answer. Only you won't be asking it any longer, because you'll have Lydia.

 

Don't focus on this, Quill. Focus on the beauty and love that is surrounding you.

 

 

asta

[Ginevra]

You were wrecked (and felt as if you would never heal, due, in part, to a "spiritual quagmire").

 

You met someone who was wrecked (and made it through to the other side, due, in part, as far as he was concerned, to faith).

 

You could see no goodness in God.

 

You met someone who told you that God wanted to be #1 for everyone.

 

 

Someone told you that last bolded bit... and you mention that you feel you've had poisoned relationships and a severe doubt surrounding your soul.

 

So I guess the last question(s) I would ask would be: have you put God first in your life over earthly things? (eg: was that one of the changes that occurred) I hate that question, by the way. I think it sounds like something a televangelist would say. I wish there was a better version - something like "have you realized that all of the cr@p on Earth really doesn't matter in the long run, and that the real answers aren't to be found here?"

 

which leads to my second question/statement (one I learned from my mom, who lost my oldest sister when she was 2 days old):

 

You don't always get an answer.

 

It sucks. And you cry. And you hurt like no one should hurt. But it isn't because God is a bad God or God hates you. It's just because that's how things are, and neither you nor I are ready for the answers yet. It's part of being human. And when it is your time (or my mom's), you will have your answer. Only you won't be asking it any longer, because you'll have Lydia.

 

Don't focus on this, Quill. Focus on the beauty and love that is surrounding you.

 

Asta, I'm going to try to answer to this, but I'm not sure I can.

 

Putting God first in my life became a moot point. I went nearly apostate for a while, although this did not happen right after the death. In the beginning, for perhaps a year-ish after her death, I didn't want to be one of those bitter grievers who scream Why? at God. I tried to embrace all the Christian-ese things about losing a baby; I even believed them for a while. But it caught up with me soon.

 

I realized that my earlier fervent desire to do the will of God in all things no longer held true, upon realizing that His will could be anything horrible, even in addition to what I had already been through. I no longer felt like I could support my team. My Team Captain could desire horrors I never imagined before, a concept I can't (still) really get behind. I cannot honestly say, "Though he slay me, still I will praise him." I could not stand in church and sing "Bring the Rain," because, TBH, I don't want more rain.

 

At this point, just staying on the team is hard enough. I can't say God is first in everything because, straight-up, I don't want to lose another child in a terrible accident, or my husband, or see my house burn to the ground. I committed everything to God (I thought) and then watched it (metaphorically) burn to the ground. I don't want to examine the horseshoe again, only to get kicked in the head again.

 

I'm a person who craves logic, who wants things to make sense. The most frightening place to be for me is up-in-the-air, with no idea what's coming. Losing Lydia in such an abrupt and non-sensical way only made that so much more true. In the battleground of my mind, there's no end to the terrible scenarios of death and destruction that lurk around every (sharp) corner. Before Lydia's death - though I probably wouldn't have articulated it this way - I thought I was protected from those things. I was following God's will and isn't that the safest place to be? Scripturally, it's clearly not so - rain falls on the righteous and the unrighteous alike - but since everything was going so rainbows-and-lollipops amazing, why would I have thought otherwise?

 

Now that I've been "over the bridge" as Texasmama said, I see that we are not safe, none of us, not the good, the bad or the ugly. Protection from tragedy is not a perk of the faithful life, but we (the Christian community on the whole) behave as though it is. Otherwise, all our prayers should be incredibly short; they would sound like this, "Thy will be done. Amen." Once I knew experientially that God's will could include things I would never ask for, I rarely prayed that prayer anymore.

 

But I wasn't planning to write the book on here.:tongue_smilie:

[Mrs Mungo]

I realized that my earlier fervent desire to do the will of God in all things no longer held true, upon realizing that His will could be anything horrible, even in addition to what I had already been through. I no longer felt like I could support my team. My Team Captain could desire horrors I never imagined before, a concept I can't (still) really get behind. I cannot honestly say, "Though he slay me, still I will praise him." I could not stand in church and sing "Bring the Rain," because, TBH, I don't want more rain.

 

I'm saying the following with a lot of reservations and saying it warily. Honestly, this is the danger of believing that everything that happens is because God wills it to be so. Not all Christians believe this. Some Christians believe bad things happen in the world and God can make good things happen from them, but that doesn't mean he *wanted* your precious baby, Lydia, to be taken from you. When people go back and forth about Providentialism and/or Predestination, this is what they are talking about. Yes, these are big tenants of Calvinism, but not every Christian sect is Calvinist.

 

Instead of thinking of it as God *causing* bad things to happen, think of God's will as allowing bad things to happen. Because actions in and of the world have consequences.

 

For those who believe the creation story is metaphorical, this has another element. That eating from the tree of knowledge did not cause us to be divorced from God, but that it caused man to lose the childlike point of view that existed before. Just like Enkidu in Gilgamesh. Once you are tamed and civilized and *grown-up*, you cannot go back to being wild or childlike. The world has changed for you. The world changed for man at that point. We have to deal with the world as it is.

 

When I think of God's will and thanking Him, I always think of The Hiding Place. Remember when Corrie told Betsy that she would not thank God for the fleas, and later they find out the fleas are the reason the guards will not enter their hut?

 

We have to try and live according to His *revealed* will. We cannot live by His perfect will or even try to figure it out.

 

 

I cannot imagine what you've been through. Losing a child has to be one of the most devastating events a person can go through. :grouphug:

[mommaduck]

I think he was a baby Christian who was fervent and misled. Nearly anyone could have felt condemned and hurt by that story. Most of us have lost someone that we loved terribly.

 

:iagree:

Youth (whether physical or spiritual) can be over zealous. That can lead to hurting others unintentionally; where they think they are doing good, they are actually doing harm. This is where youth should be taught "mouths shut, ears open" for a time of growth.

[Ginevra]

I'm saying the following with a lot of reservations and saying it warily. Honestly, this is the danger of believing that everything that happens is because God wills it to be so. Not all Christians believe this. Some Christians believe bad things happen in the world and God can make good things happen from them, but that doesn't mean he *wanted* your precious baby, Lydia, to be taken from you. When people go back and forth about Providentialism and/or Predestination, this is what they are talking about. Yes, these are big tenants of Calvinism, but not every Christian sect is Calvinist.

 

Instead of thinking of it as God *causing* bad things to happen, think of God's will as allowing bad things to happen. Because actions in and of the world have consequences.

 

For those who believe the creation story is metaphorical, this has another element. That eating from the tree of knowledge did not cause us to be divorced from God, but that it caused man to lose the childlike point of view that existed before. Just like Enkidu in Gilgamesh. Once you are tamed and civilized and *grown-up*, you cannot go back to being wild or childlike. The world has changed for you. The world changed for man at that point. We have to deal with the world as it is.

 

When I think of God's will and thanking Him, I always think of The Hiding Place. Remember when Corrie told Betsy that she would not thank God for the fleas, and later they find out the fleas are the reason the guards will not enter their hut?

 

We have to try and live according to His *revealed* will. We cannot live by His perfect will or even try to figure it out.

 

 

I cannot imagine what you've been through. Losing a child has to be one of the most devastating events a person can go through. :grouphug:

 

I'm going to say this a little warily back! ;)

 

To me, "causing" and "allowing" tragedy are essentially the same for a person with all Authority and Power. So, I have authority over my children - if I placed my toddler in the middle of a street and they were struck by a car, well then, that is malicious; I caused the accident and it's true I don't want that to be the way God works. Yet, if I stand idly by, watching my toddler wander into the middle of the street, where they are struck by a car, that is negligent; I allowed the accident to happen and this is not a greatly improved view of God. We also know that God's will can include horrors, as that is The Main Event of the gospel, and we have it from Jesus that it was His Will.

 

From my human, motherly perspective, there isn't any "good" that could come out of her death that would be worth losing Lydia. I am certain every childless parent feels the same. Nobody wants to hang out in the fire, nevermind if it refines.

 

I don't *want* to believe that God wanted Lydia to die, or that He predetermined that her lifespan would be zero days outside the womb. But any notion of God having to "go along with" this event that He didn't want is a non sequitur. Either God can avert disaster, but doesn't for reasons we are not permitted to know yet, or God cannot avert disaster. Neither view is particularly attractive to me, just FTR.

Edited July 1, 2011 by Quill
Can't spell Latin correctly