Why does this irk me?

[Ohdanigirl]

My niece moved from Mexico to San Diego to finish high school. She is an American Citizen,but was raised and attended school in Mexico. She recently informed me via Facebook that she was put into AP Spanish.:confused: She is a native Spanish speaker. Apparently, almost all the kids in her AP Spanish class are from similar backgrounds.

 

This doesn't seem right to me. Am I just being silly?

 

Danielle

 

ETA: Wow, I came back and the thread had really grown. I guess I should have provided better detail.

 

1. Some people have said that for native speakers with a poor educational background AP would be hard. In this school, the native speakers are from very well off Mexican families. They either went to very posh private schools in Mexico or the very best government school. This is the case with my niece, and she knew most of her classmates going in. If you are from this background, the info covered in AP Spanish would basically be what you did in 7th grade. Their k-8 years were in Mexico. This is the AP Spanish Grammar class, not the Lit class.

 

2. Yes other languages are available to the students.

Edited May 10, 2011 by USDGAL

[LibraryLover]

Don't English speaking kids take AP English?

 

I think you're being ridiculous, not just silly. There is always something more to learn.

 

You did ask. :)

Edited May 10, 2011 by LibraryLover

[MindyD]

No, she'll get college credit for those courses if she passes the exam. It saves her from take a couple of language classes in college. Colleges won't care if she's a native speaker, she'll still have to take the classes or earn the language credit somehow. It'll be an easy A. :)

[Sasharowan]

When I had French 3 in high school (no AP), we had a native French speaker in our class to help with his English.

[Ailaena]

Well... She needs a foreign language, right? At least they didn't put her in Spanish 1? Maybe they didn't realize she attended a Spanish-language school?

 

On a serious note, very often, just because you speak a certain language fluently doesn't mean you have a solid grasp on grammar/mechanics/orthography. At the university I attended, one could never test above 3rd semester, so many native speakers were enrolled in X-Language 4 (a level below AP).

 

Why does it bother you?

[Ailaena]

.

Edited May 10, 2011 by Ailaena

[Ailaena]

.

Edited May 10, 2011 by Ailaena

[Ailaena]

.

Edited May 10, 2011 by Ailaena

[Ailaena]

Haha, did I get my point across? I swear I only hit submit once!

Edited May 10, 2011 by Ailaena

[Ohdanigirl]

Ok, just wondering. It just seems like an easy A (her words) for everyone in the class. They are ESL students, and I was under the impression that it was suppossed to be a foreign language credit. At least this was the policy when I was in school.

 

She was pretty tickled by it, since she is not learning anything new. All that material was covered when she was younger in middle school.

 

Danielle

Edited May 10, 2011 by USDGAL

[missmoe]

Same thing happens here where I live in CA. I don't see anything wrong with it.

 

Growing up I had a boyfriend that was a native Spanish speaker, but really had to work in his Spanish 3 class. He didn't come from an educated background, and the grammar and spelling was really hard for him. AP Spanish covers advanced grammar and lit, so she could still have lots to learn in that class.

[Abigail4476]

Ok, just wondering. It just seems like an easy A (her words) for everyone in the class. They are ESL students, and I was under the impression that it was suppossed to be a foreign language credit. At least this was the policy when I was in school.

 

She was pretty tickled by it, since she is not learning any this new. All that material was covered when she was younger.

 

Danielle

 

Well, I think every high schooler could use a couple of "easy A's" along the way. ;) Maybe that will give her room to focus on more difficult classes.

[Ohdanigirl]

 

Why does it bother you?

 

 

Partly because I know that kids who are actually learning Spanish as a foreign language are missing out on the AP at this particular school. Spaces are limited and given to those that have the best skills.

 

Secondly, when her mother and I spoke, she told me how the parents have actually spoken about it and laughed about how stupid American schools are to allow that.

 

Yes, the school knew she came from a Spanish only school in a Spanish speaking country.

 

Danielle

[LibraryLover]

sorry for the double post. Board was weird tonight.

Edited May 10, 2011 by LibraryLover

[In The Great White North]

laughed about how stupid American schools are to allow that.

 

There's not anything specifically American about it, or necessarily stupid (for her.) When dd did 7th grade in Switzerland, she had to take English.

 

The only "stupid" thing is that they have more kids who want to take AP Spanish and aren't creating another class. It's not like they don't have to teach these kids that hour anyway.

[LibraryLover]

she told me how the parents have actually spoken about it and laughed about how stupid American schools are to allow that.

 

 

Why does it bother you that she speaks two languages well and might get credit for that?

Edited May 10, 2011 by LibraryLover

[helena]

I can relate. I'm from a bilingual family, as were many of my friends in school. This scenario was a common occurrence.

Some of them thought it was funny that they were basically cheating the system. It bothered me, and the memory stuck with me.

 

 

Now all these years later I can honestly say that I wish I had taken more Spanish :rolleyes:

I'm of the generation (english as a first language) where parents didn't want their kids to be held back by being too Mexican (I was born in '72). A lot of our parents didn't teach us Spanish, but still spoke it in the home and with with friends and family. It seems like my generation (from California) speaks spanglish more than Spanish. It's lame. Geez, even my english is 2nd rate sometimes! I wish I had really mastered the two languages.

 

I also remember taking Spanish in college and struggling to find which class I belonged in. I was near fluent, but needed a proper education in the language. It can get complicated.

 

FWIW, what you described would irk me too.

Edited May 10, 2011 by helena

[chiguirre]

It's lame if it's AP Spanish Language. It's fine if it's AP Spanish Literature. The first is Spanish for non-native speakers, and might be the best fit for someone who speaks Spanish at home but never learned grammar, written composition and the formal register of speech. You can't really use Spanish for business until you've mastered those aspects of it. OTOH, for someone who has had Castellano classes for 8 or 9 years, this class would be ridiculously easy. AP Spanish Lit would be perfectly okay for any teenager who can read Spanish well enough to handle classics in the original. Even if you're a native speaker, El Cantar de Mio Cid is a hard slog.

[WishboneDawn]

I have to think that if it were my daughter and she was placed in an English language class that covered stuff she'd learned several years ago I'd be miffed. That's class time she could have used to learn something new or pursue a subject she had a real interest in.

[In The Great White North]

Actually, she should take the AP test, otherwise colleges have nothing to go on but her word that she is fluent in Spanish.

[Lolly]

Well, my nephew is a native Spanish speaker. He didn't get an easy A in ap Spanish in high school. In fact, he barely passed it. Then again, the teacher had some of the answers incorrect... And, he didn't want to actually do and turn in the work. It seems he thought it was silly because he was most definitely fluent.

 

My opinion, kids should be allowed to test out of the class and still receive credit. If they already know the material, why should they have to take the class? Then again, I think the same thing about other subjects too.:D

[Mom0012]

I can see why it would bother you. It does seem to be cheating to be meeting a foreign language requirement in your native language. If that's the case, then U.S. students should be allowed to take English as their foreign language requirement. Also, the fact that the classes are limited as to the number of students they can take makes it seem unfair.

 

Lisa

[lmkzbcb]

I can see why it would bother you. It does seem to be cheating to be meeting a foreign language requirement in your native language. If that's the case, then U.S. students should be allowed to take English as their foreign language requirement. Also, the fact that the classes are limited as to the number of students they can take makes it seem unfair.

 

Lisa

 

:iagree:

[lmkzbcb]

Actually, she should take the AP test, otherwise colleges have nothing to go on but her word that she is fluent in Spanish.

 

:iagree: And any student can take the AP test to get credit for it without taking the class.

 

IMO, it is a waste of precious time and other potential for the neice to do this. She should be incouraged to be reaching for the stars, not doing the bare minimum to check the box.

Also, learning a 3rd language would only serve her well in the future.

Edited May 10, 2011 by lmkzbcb

[lmkzbcb]

I have to think that if it were my daughter and she was placed in an English language class that covered stuff she'd learned several years ago I'd be miffed. That's class time she could have used to learn something new or pursue a subject she had a real interest in.

 

:iagree:

 

(Sorry for posting so many times, I couldn't figure out how to quote several people into one post.)

[Ester Maria]

When dd did 7th grade in Switzerland, she had to take English.

English is, I assume, a part of a rather fixed repertoire of subjects in that school, a part of the educational framework (as in many, if not most schools, in most of Europe) - so in a way, it is different than purposely taking a class that is not suited to your previous knowledge when you have a choice between several options. Sometimes you cannot escape a certain subject and a certain default level in it, but many times (especially in the US system) you can, and it is a sort of reflection on laziness if you purposely go with what you mostly already know, wasting your time and occupying a slot that could have been given to somebody who would have used that time (not to mention that she can always take AP exams regardless of what she does at school, so it is not a credit or formal recognition issue).

[twoforjoy]

IMO, it is a waste of precious time and other potential for the neice to do this. She should be incouraged to be reaching for the stars, not doing the bare minimum to check the box.

 

Would you think the same thing about a native English speaker taking a course that reviewed English grammar? Because at the level of study we're talking about, she'd be doing a lot of advanced grammar work, and I'm not sure anybody here would argue that it's a waste of time for a student to study (or even review) the grammar of a language they are familiar with. Once a student can speak and read English fluently, I'm assuming most here would recommend that student still cover grammatical concepts, including concepts they've been learning since their early years in school.

 

If she was taking Spanish 1, I'd totally agree about it being a waste of educational time, although I'd still not be inclined to think that was necessarily a horrible thing, depending on the other courses she was taking and her attitude in the class. I took French 1 my senior year in high school, and having taken 5 years of Spanish, it was a really, really easy class for me. (Which is another issue to consider: many schools only offer romance languages, and taking a beginner's level romance language course would likely be no more challenging--if not less challenging--for this student than taking an advanced-level Spanish course.) There was a native French speaker in the class who was also a senior, and he was great to have in the class. It was a blow-off class for him, but having a native speaker in the class (the teacher wasn't a native speaker) actually did add to the learning for everybody else. And beyond that, I just don't think that reviewing the grammar and vocabulary of a language you speak fluently at a more advanced level is a waste of time.

 

I think it's a shame that this school won't open up another class for students who want to it, but it's not this student's fault, nor her responsibility to drop the class and make room for another student.

Edited May 10, 2011 by twoforjoy

[lmkzbcb]

Would you think the same thing about a native English speaker taking a course that reviewed English grammar?

 

What I said is based on what the OP said about the niece and her mom saying there is nothing new in this class.

Based on that informaiton, it is a waste of time. She can take the AP exam, get the credit, and move on to more without taking that class.

If my dc can take an AP English exam and get credit for it, that is what I want them to do, and I would be doing a jig if they did it without taking the AP class. ;)

[J-rap]

...

Edited September 9, 2023 by J-rap

[In The Great White North]

What I said is based on what the OP said about the niece and her mom saying there is nothing new in this class.

Based on that informaiton, it is a waste of time. She can take the AP exam, get the credit, and move on to more without taking that class.

 

The other issue, as yet unmentioned, is that this is probably the last Spanish class that school offers. So if she wants to maintain her Spanish, she has to take it. There are no other choices.

[MinivanMom]

Partly because I know that kids who are actually learning Spanish as a foreign language are missing out on the AP at this particular school. Spaces are limited and given to those that have the best skills.

 

Secondly, when her mother and I spoke, she told me how the parents have actually spoken about it and laughed about how stupid American schools are to allow that.

 

Yes, the school knew she came from a Spanish only school in a Spanish speaking country.

 

Danielle

 

:iagree:

 

When I was in high school (in California) all of the native Spanish speakers signed up for Spanish in order to get an easy-A (their words). As a result, the Spanish classes were not well taught for those of us attempting to learn Spanish as a foreign language. Instead they were geared somewhere between the half of the class actually trying to learn and the half of the class that was already fluent. I did a lot of additional studying to keep up, but by Spanish III only 1/3 of the class was non-native Spanish learners. I didn't sign up for AP Spanish after being told by the teacher that I shouldn't (and I was the top non-native student). Every single student in our AP Spanish class was a native speaker.

 

I know that our Spanish teacher was stacking the class for AP passing rates. Nobody cared about actually teaching the Spanish language to non-latinos. While there may be some legitimate reasons for native speakers to take Spanish in school, if the result is that other students miss the opportunity to learn Spanish entirely then something is wrong. There are many ways for a Spanish-speaking student like the OP's niece to demonstrate her fluency. AP Spanish is completely unnecessary. I'd bet anything that her high school looked at her transcript and saw an easy way to boost their average AP score even higher.

 

Call me cynical, but whenever I hear someone's high school is allowing native Spanish speakers to take Spanish . . . I strongly urge that student to enroll in French. :001_smile:

[SailorMom]

I was in AP English - and let me tell you, there were no first language-Spanish speaking students in that class :)

 

Easy A - and the problem is??? If they have the ability, then they get the grade.

[Ester Maria]

I think the US should learn from Israel in this case.

 

In Israel, since they have a relatively big population of Anglo kids, or kids of one Anglo parent, or kids whose parents worked abroad and the kids thus got fluent - in short, they have a relatively big population of kids native or fluent in English - and in many schools they offer this thing called dovrei anglit, which is basically a differentiated English class geared specifically towards those children. It helps them to keep up both the spoken component of the language and age-appropriate literacy.

 

In many parts of the US, I find that the situation is "extreme enough" to warrant such an approach - differentiated Spanish classes for native and heritage speakers. That way everybody profits, children who need to learn have their own class, and those who already speak Spanish do not stagnate.

[beaners]

I think the level of AP Spanish is going to vary quite a bit. I attended high school in NY. The year after the Regents, our Spanish classes were combined into a 4th year Honors/5th year AP course. (The 1st year credit is usually from both 7th and 8th grade.) We read quite a bit of Don Quixote, and we did work on some grammar. I took the 4th year, but decided to spend my last year concentrated on French instead of doing both languages simultaneously. My senior year I took the French Regents. I don't know if a second year of that particular Spanish class would have prepared me for the AP. I took 2 truly AP-level courses my senior year that were far more demanding, but produced great scores for most of the class.

 

Learning French after working with Spanish expanded my abilities with both languages exponentially. I'm not sure if the effect would have been as great if I was a native speaker of two languages, but I think looking at multiple languages makes it much easier to see the framework behind the language. I took Latin in college, but I believe that my Regents scores exempted me from the language requirement. If just proving proficiency to a university is the goal, lots of schools offer some kind of standardized (CLEP?) or school-specific testing.

 

Given the opportunity, I'd probably have chosen a different route than this particular student. I don't see any ethical objections to the student's choice though. It is disappointing that there aren't enough slots for all the students who want the classes.

[blondeviolin]

The other thing to realize is that it really does place the non-Spanish speaking at a disadvantage. I grew up in an area that was very predominantly Spanish-speaking...it was still in the US, but five miles from the border. In high school I took Spanish hoping that it would help me learn and be more fluent, especially living in an area where Spanish was so frequently heard and used. Unfortunately, my Spanish classes were so inundated with native Spanish speakers that I hardly learned much there because they were advanced beyond what a typical Beginning Spanish class should be. By the time AP Spanish came up, there weren't any students in the class who weren't Native Speakers. What a bummer to those of us who could have really benefited from those classes!

[regentrude]

If that's the case, then U.S. students should be allowed to take English as their foreign language requirement.

 

Which they are, if they decide to go to school in a country where another language is spoken, and are fluent in that language as well.

[bbmom]

I can see it both ways-on one hand, the state of California mandates at least one year of foreign language instruction for graduation (state colleges require 2-3 years) so I can see them putting her into the class in order to fulfill that requirement and also pad their AP scores. It also allows those students to free up more classes for ESL classes or electives in future years, and would be especially beneficial if they need the remediation in English. On the other hand, I don't know if passing the AP test would satisfy the state university language requirements (no need to take more than one year if you can pass the AP test?) I also think if they are taking up class space from true foreign language students the school should open another class to accommodate those students.

[Ester Maria]

The other thing to realize is that it really does place the non-Spanish speaking at a disadvantage. I grew up in an area that was very predominantly Spanish-speaking...it was still in the US, but five miles from the border. In high school I took Spanish hoping that it would help me learn and be more fluent, especially living in an area where Spanish was so frequently heard and used. Unfortunately, my Spanish classes were so inundated with native Spanish speakers that I hardly learned much there because they were advanced beyond what a typical Beginning Spanish class should be. By the time AP Spanish came up, there weren't any students in the class who weren't Native Speakers. What a bummer to those of us who could have really benefited from those classes!

I agree.

 

And like I said previously, since this is NOT a few isolated cases, but a tangible segment of population, they should definitely provide differentiated programs that benefit all, especially in areas like the one you grew up in.

[regentrude]

She will most likely be required to take English classes, right? And there she will be at a disadvantage compared to the other students who had English instruction for native English speakers in school for many years.

So, HER foreign language is evaluated compared to native speakers.

I think it's only fair she gets a break with Spanish.

[MeaganS]

In a school setting, I don't see why having previous knowledge of a subject would be unfair. It's just like anything else. If my parents were major history buffs and spent my entire childhood teaching me about history topics and discussing it, it would still be fair for me to be in AP History, even though I had an advantage.

 

Now, besides the fact that it is a waste of her time, I don't think there is one thing wrong with it. Most children have advantages in one area or another. If I were her mother, though, I'd just have her take the spanish AP test and not worry about the class, but that's just me.

[edithcrawley]

I think what the girl is doing is completely fair, and also smart on her part. Colleges look at GPA and number of AP's taken. She's just playing the game that the high schools and colleges set out. The university you apply to doesn't care how much you actually learned in your classes, or if you learned anything at all. They just care that your grades, number of AP's and SAT/ACT scores are high enough for their standards.

 

 

Also, I've had friends take AP Spanish, and a great deal of it is based on really hard and subtle grammar lessons.

[Ester Maria]

Also, I've had friends take AP Spanish, and a great deal of it is based on really hard and subtle grammar lessons.

For a native speaker educated in the language (i.e. NOT a typical heritage speaker) AP exams and SAT IIs are a complete, utter joke. Or at least they should be, if they have any substantial education.

 

I cannot fathom my daughters not passing AP Italian or "having to study hard" for AP Italian. All they would have to is to be vaguely aware of what is going on in the class and read (if not skim) the texts studied. I would consider it a *major* flaw in their education if they could not breeze though it after having studied Italian on a native language level with literature in an Italian school. That would be an unspeakable tragedy. AP Italian should be a JOKE for any Italian child even half-educated in Italian schools. I read about it, viewed samples, talked to people who took it. A JOKE. Not to even be taken seriously, as a serious subject.

 

I would faint if my kids failed AP Italian.

I would disinherit them.

I would publicly disown them.

I exaggerate and dramatize :D (except maybe for the fainting part), but you get the point: it really is THAT easy for a native speaker educated in Italy.

 

Now, heritage speakers who are not educated in their native language are a different boat, they often speak those languages dialectally and poorly and might really profit from AP classes, but - a child schooled in that language? AP is a joke for them.

[Big Buckin' Longhorn]

I don't know about high school, but I'm back in college now and when I am in Spanish class, the native speakers really get on my nerves. They spend half the class period raising their hands and informing the class and the professor "how they say it." It is confusing and takes time away from us poor students who have no idea how to say anything and are desperately trying to learn. Also our class is mostly conducted in Spanish and the native speakers use words we haven't learned and speak WAY too fast for the rest of us to keep up and understand.

 

So . . . I with they had a Spanish class for native speakers and a separate class for non-native speakers.

 

Actually, now that I look back at what I just typed . . . I'm probably just jealous. I have my Spanish final tomorrow and I'm in bed sick as a dog today. *SIGH* Carry on.

[ocelotmom]

Does the school even have an alternate foreign language option?

 

I went to grade school in San Diego, at a very good but relatively small school. They occasionally tried to start up French, but there wasn't enough interest, so Spanish was the only foreign language taught.

[Starr]

My niece moved from Mexico to San Diego to finish high school. She is an American Citizen,but was raised and attended school in Mexico. She recently informed me via Facebook that she was put into AP Spanish.:confused: She is a native Spanish speaker. Apparently, almost all the kids in her AP Spanish class are from similar backgrounds.

 

This doesn't seem right to me. Am I just being silly?

 

Danielle

 

She should take the SAT subject test as well. They say these tests are difficult because of spanish speakers. Now if there was another language to learn I would just say to take the test and skip the class.

[Aubrey]

Partly because I know that kids who are actually learning Spanish as a foreign language are missing out on the AP at this particular school. Spaces are limited and given to those that have the best skills.

 

Secondly, when her mother and I spoke, she told me how the parents have actually spoken about it and laughed about how stupid American schools are to allow that.

 

Yes, the school knew she came from a Spanish only school in a Spanish speaking country.

 

Danielle

 

I don't understand. Most of the ESL students won't be able to take AP English, either. I don't hear complaints about the fact that those taking it had the unfair advantage of being native speakers.

 

Maybe you're misunderstanding the content of the course. At that level, "Spanish" is (supposed to be) Spanish literature, etc--the same as "English" isn't "learning to speak the language."

 

Imagine if your kid went to school in another country & wasn't allowed to take a class that taught Shakespeare *because* he/she already spoke English. It's completely non sequitur.

 

Btw, I wouldn't think AP Spanish would be any easier of an A than AP English, no matter what language you speak, but even if it is, w/holding the class from native speakers is equal to punishing kids for working harder/learning more. If I put the effort into raising my kids bilingually & they're punished for it by having classes/credits w/held...not only would that make me mad, but what motivation is there for others to do the same? (Not that that leaves NO motivation, but it does remove *some.*)

 

It's unfortunate that the other people you referenced don't understand this & use their linguistic advantage to dub Americans "stupid," but they're not exactly unique in that assessment of us.

Edited May 10, 2011 by Aubrey

[ktgrok]

At first I was miffed too. Then I thought about it. Ok, so she is taking AP Spanish, and it is easier for her than the native English speakers. But, she is also taking English, which will be harder for her than for the native English speakers. So I guess it balances out then?

[LibraryLover]

Because one can speak a language doesn't mean they understand the grammar or spelling, or can read it. Fi, plenty of Americans can speak English, but do they have a command of it? ;) Same with a child in the US whose first language is Spanish but learned English when they went to Kindergarten or preschool. (Heritage speaker, right EM? )

 

Are we sure the student in question has AP level Spanish skills?

 

Well, my nephew is a native Spanish speaker. He didn't get an easy A in ap Spanish in high school. In fact, he barely passed it. Then again, the teacher had some of the answers incorrect... And, he didn't want to actually do and turn in the work. It seems he thought it was silly because he was most definitely fluent.

 

My opinion, kids should be allowed to test out of the class and still receive credit. If they already know the material, why should they have to take the class? Then again, I think the same thing about other subjects too.:D

Edited May 10, 2011 by LibraryLover

[astrid]

Well said, Aubrey. I agree.

 

astrid

[Ohdanigirl]

Why does it bother you that she speaks two languages well and might get credit for that?

 

That is not what I said, and she does not. She is an ESL student who attended k-8 in Mexico. She actually knew many of her classmates going in to this school. Which means they are pretty much all from the same background.

 

I live near the border, and it is common place for many students to go to the US for school to get the 3 years needed for in state tuition in college. Since this is something the school is used to dealing with, I would think they would at least open an other class. It doesn't seem fair to non-native speakers.

 

Danielle