How to explain something in Harry Potter

[JeneralMom]

SPOILER ALERT - DO NOT READ THIS IF YOU HAVE NOT READ DEATHLY HALLOWS

 

My DH reads a chapter or two of HP every night to the boys (and girls if they are still awake) and he is on Deathly Hallows now. I have always had a problem with one of the story elements in this book and I know at least my DS6 will pick up on it too, so I am wondering how you would explain this to your child. Here goes:

 

Lily Potter is always described as loving, caring, kind, sweet, etc. However, one of the main story components rests on her being extremely cruel and unforgiving so how do you reconcile these two things. Let me explain. Snape is her childhood best friend, the person who taught her about being magical. They remained dear friends through Hogwarts even though they drifted a little, but she is willing to shut him completely out of her life and never have anything to do with him because he once called her a bad name. However, she is perfectly willing to forgive and forget James, Sirius and Lupin who tortured her best friend for years, even planning a trick on him which would have killed him. How do you reconcile these two sides of a character?

 

My DS7 will probably just accept it at face value, but I know my DS6 will probably pick up on the inconsistency like I did (it is like a thorn under my skin).

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

I'm only on book 3 with the boys right now, but I don't think it will pose a problem for them. I also thought it wasn't explained very well about how Lily ended up with James when he was so obnoxious. If they do question it, I will just explain that the author had to leave some of the details out, or the book would be even longer than it already is.

[Remudamom]

Well, she obviously eventually fell in love with James, and love is blind.

[meggie]

I've always thought it was more because he chose to be evil. She knew what the death eaters were, what they did, what Snape wanted to be. She tried ignoring it as much as she could, but when he called her that it just cemented it in her mind that he had chosen a very different path, one she couldn't support. They don't explain much about how she ended up with James, but I doubt it was an overnight thing.

[MeaganS]

I've always thought it was more because he chose to be evil. She knew what the death eaters were, what they did, what Snape wanted to be. She tried ignoring it as much as she could, but when he called her that it just cemented it in her mind that he had chosen a very different path, one she couldn't support. They don't explain much about how she ended up with James, but I doubt it was an overnight thing.

:iagree:

 

This is exactly what I thought.

[Farrar]

I don't think it's that love is blind per se, but that they all grow up. The book shows us incredible evil and good, but it also shows how good people aren't all good (James was a bully, Dumbledore suffered from pride) and bad people aren't all bad (even Voldemort has things that make him sympathetic).

[Caitilin]

I've always thought it was more because he chose to be evil. She knew what the death eaters were, what they did, what Snape wanted to be. She tried ignoring it as much as she could, but when he called her that it just cemented it in her mind that he had chosen a very different path, one she couldn't support. They don't explain much about how she ended up with James, but I doubt it was an overnight thing.

 

I agree with this assessment. To me, this is the only thing that makes sense: Snape has given her up, as evidenced by "conversion" to the death-eaters and his subsequent calling her a mudblood, so she in her turn gives him up because she cannot give in to the evil he has become associated with.

[MelanieM]

Forgiveness is not created equal, and even wonderful people can find it difficult to reach that place over certain issues. Perhaps the name Snape called her was something that touched such a raw spot within her that she was blinded to any form of healing on the subject. To her, it was an unforgiveable sin, and likely had far more to do with her own feelings around the matter than with the fact that Snape said it to her. After all, we never really get insulted by things that don't resonate with our own negative thoughts. (Not the whole story here, and maybe not even the right point for discussion with a little one. But I do think this is something that happens an awful lot with people in life.)

Edited April 25, 2011 by MelanieM

[Rhonda in TX]

I've always thought it was more because he chose to be evil. She knew what the death eaters were, what they did, what Snape wanted to be. She tried ignoring it as much as she could, but when he called her that it just cemented it in her mind that he had chosen a very different path, one she couldn't support. They don't explain much about how she ended up with James, but I doubt it was an overnight thing.

 

These are my thoughts as well.

 

I do wish we knew more about how she ended up with James, who I never really liked. IIRC, she didn't like James at first, so something obviously happened over the years to change her opinion.

[abbeyej]

I think it's largely about perspective. It's good fodder for discussing different sides to a story/memory and also inadvertent cruelty. It's not just "bullies" who say and do cruel things to others. It's normal, everyday people. Sometimes very good people. Who get swept up in the moment, or find someone unlovable, and say and do things without thinking...

 

Another wonderful book for looking at this issue more closely is "The Hundred Dresses". It's told from the perspective of a young girl who finds herself quietly playing the role of "accessory" to bullying and cruelty. She's basically a good kid. Her best friend doesn't *think* of herself as a bully. But together they terrorize another child -- one who, ultimately, heaps coals upon their heads... It's a beautiful, thoughtful little story and great for talking about how being a "good" kid doesn't mean one can assume one won't hurt another person. Kindness takes effort too.

 

I think Snape's memories are not perfectly reliable either. James and friends were jerks.

 

But Snape was also cruel to Lily. And ultimately he chose Voldemort over (mere) friendship with her.

 

None of them was perfect. None was blameless. None was solely at fault for the way things played out.

 

They're all just *human*. James shouldn't have been an a**. Lily should have stood up for her friend. Snape should have learned to forgive.

[Carol in Cal.]

Snape was not likeable--he was whiny and sneaky and mean and snobby. She treated him well in spite of that until he also became evil, and let his snobby side overwhelm him. Plus he always liked her a lot more than she liked him, and that gets tricky--it's gross to have someone want you who you don't want at all.

[The Governess]

She didn't shut him out just because he called her a name. He apologized for calling her what he did, but it was obvious from their conversations that he would have used that name for any other muggle-born and feel justified. He truly did believe that the wizard race was superior, and was not willing to stop associating with people who shared these beliefs and committed evil acts based on these beliefs. This is why she shut him out, and I believe she was very disappointed that she had to do so.

 

I also think it took her a long time to forgive James for what he did. :001_smile:

Edited April 25, 2011 by lovelearnandlive

[RachelFlores]

I've always thought it was more because he chose to be evil. She knew what the death eaters were, what they did, what Snape wanted to be. She tried ignoring it as much as she could, but when he called her that it just cemented it in her mind that he had chosen a very different path, one she couldn't support. They don't explain much about how she ended up with James, but I doubt it was an overnight thing.

 

:iagree: I always thought that scene was just the final straw in a series of choices that separated them. I always thought it wasn't the name that was unforgivable, but the reason he used it.

[lmrich]

I agree that James, Sirius and Lupin grew up and stopped being bullies, but Snape grew up to be a bully. And she was in love with James so it was a lot easier for her to overlook his faults as a teenager.

[TexasRachel]

Remember that he didn't just call her a bad name. He said she didn't belong, that she was a magic stealer, that she was repulsive, that she was a lesser being, that she should die. Mud blood is way more than calling someone a b-----. it's invalidating her entire existence. They had already argued about his friends so his choice of words just proved that he felt the same way as his friends.

[MelanieM]

I've always thought it was more because he chose to be evil. She knew what the death eaters were, what they did, what Snape wanted to be. She tried ignoring it as much as she could, but when he called her that it just cemented it in her mind that he had chosen a very different path, one she couldn't support. They don't explain much about how she ended up with James, but I doubt it was an overnight thing.

 

Yeah. I think that's a great way to explain it to a little one.

[Impish]

I've always thought it was more because he chose to be evil. She knew what the death eaters were, what they did, what Snape wanted to be. She tried ignoring it as much as she could, but when he called her that it just cemented it in her mind that he had chosen a very different path, one she couldn't support. They don't explain much about how she ended up with James, but I doubt it was an overnight thing.

:iagree:

[Mrs Mungo]

They were childhood friends.

 

It wasn't just that they grew apart. They made very different choices.

 

When they went away to school he followed the crowd in Slytherin and their pure blood creed. He was never fully accepted by them and wasn't a full-blood wizard himself. In an attempt to hide his heritage, his background and to try to be more accepted, he made a choice, Slytherin house over Lily. He didn't just call her a name. He rejected her and their shared heritage. He also made a choice to pursue the Dark Arts, a choice Lily didn't approve of. He thought he could impress her by becoming a DeathEater, but she was repulsed by it.

 

Who is to say she would not have forgiven him? He never asked for her forgiveness. He never pursued a relationship with her after he joined the OOtP. Unfortunately, he didn't get the chance to redeem himself in her eyes because she was killed so soon after that.

[The Governess]

:iagree: I always thought that scene was just the final straw in a series of choices that separated them. I always thought it wasn't the name that was unforgivable, but the reason he used it.

 

Yes, exactly. I always thought it would be like ending a friendship with someone who had joined the Nazi party after you learned that they had not only joined, but fully and happily adopted all of the party's racist, hateful beliefs as well. A very sad thing, and much more serious than some mean-spirited teenage pranks gone terribly wrong.

[JeneralMom]

Wow, thanks for all the responses. I guess I need to go back and re-read the last book - it has been a while and all that stuck with me was the name. I think that the explanations above are great.

 

So, seeing as this is such a great discussion, let me add another aspect - in his effort to be "accepted" by the purebloods/Death Eaters he reviles Lily and all "mudbloods". Do you think he redeems himself for his "betrayal" of Lily and his joining the Death Eaters, through his actions (i.e. devoting his life to Lily's memory and protecting Harry?)

 

And I can't possibly be the only one who thought the death scene, where he asks Harry to look into his eyes as he dies so the last thing he sees were Lily's eye, was absolutely heartbreaking.

[redsquirrel]

I curious about how well your kids are dealing with the books. I have only allowed my elder son, about to be 11, to read through book 3. He said he wants to read book 4 for his 11th birthday and I told him that was fine, but he can't read book 5 until he is older.

 

I figured he wouldn't understand the relationships or the choices the characters make.

 

Do you find your 6 & 7 year old understand the politics and the issues she is addressing? If they are, then maybe I should rethink my stance. I kind of have it in my head that books 1-3 are juvenile books but starting with book for they become young adult novels. But, maybe I am being too hard line.

[Free]

He also made a choice to pursue the Dark Arts, a choice Lily didn't approve of. He thought he could impress her by becoming a DeathEater, but she was repulsed by it.

 

Yes, Lily absolutely could not support Snape's choice of pursuing the Dark Arts and his association with the Death eaters. That is why she and Snape stopped being friends.

[Mrs Mungo]

and all "mudbloods". Do you think he redeems himself for his "betrayal" of Lily and his joining the Death Eaters, through his actions (i.e. devoting his life to Lily's memory and protecting Harry?)

 

I don't know if he redeems himself in his own eyes. I'm not sure he was ever able to forgive himself. I think he blamed himself for not being able to save Lily. But, he obviously redeems himself in Harry's eyes since one of his sons is Albus Severus Potter. If he redeems himself in Harry's eyes how can it be otherwise for the reader?

 

And I can't possibly be the only one who thought the death scene, where he asks Harry to look into his eyes as he dies so the last thing he sees were Lily's eye, was absolutely heartbreaking.

 

Definitely heartbreaking.

[Mimm]

Snape is, in my opinion, the best character of the series. So much food for thought on loyalty, love, betrayal, and how our actions always affect others. His story is so very heartbreaking. Yes, I think Snape redeemed himself. He never really like Harry but out of his feelings for Lilly, in the end he does everything he can to protect him.

 

Regarding the whole Lilly/James/Snape story, I think it's fair to say that we don't have all the details. Harry only sees his father tormenting Snape, doesn't see any of the times that Snape goes after his father, which Sirius and Lupin assure us was often. I think the chapter is called Snape's Worst Memory. I'm pretty sure it wasn't exactly James' finest moment, but I think we can assume that James had many moments when he was brave, caring and protective of people who were less powerful. But Snape wouldn't focus on those, and so Harry doesn't see them. It's only tiny glimpses into people's lives. I think this could make for a fascinating conversation with our kids about what little moments in our lives form people's opinions of us. If someone only saw the times we were angry or hateful or vindictive, what would they think of us? What words have we said that will stick in people's memories decades after we said them?

[joannqn]

I curious about how well your kids are dealing with the books. I have only allowed my elder son, about to be 11, to read through book 3. He said he wants to read book 4 for his 11th birthday and I told him that was fine, but he can't read book 5 until he is older.

 

I figured he wouldn't understand the relationships or the choices the characters make.

 

Do you find your 6 & 7 year old understand the politics and the issues she is addressing? If they are, then maybe I should rethink my stance. I kind of have it in my head that books 1-3 are juvenile books but starting with book for they become young adult novels. But, maybe I am being too hard line.

 

 

There are two ways to read any well-written book. Younger kids will read it and enjoy it for the basic plot on the surface. Other children and adults will read between the lines and enjoy the deeper conflicts and themes.

[amey311]

Do you find your 6 & 7 year old understand the politics and the issues she is addressing? If they are, then maybe I should rethink my stance. I kind of have it in my head that books 1-3 are juvenile books but starting with book for they become young adult novels. But, maybe I am being too hard line.

 

My younger son year old read them to himself when he was 6-7, thru the 6th book. He started the 7th and decided that there was too much death and near death in the first book (too much high level suspense) and that he'd wait to read that one when he's older. I don't know if he pays attention to the politics or if he's just enjoying the surface story. I know he needs some lovin' when something sad happens.

 

My older son is 10 and he has only listened to them as audiobooks, while doing something else. I'm guessing he didn't pick up on the politics either.

 

My

[LibraryLover]

I think there is only something to reconcile if we want Lily to be without flaw. None of the HP characters are perfect. Even Harry, as much as we love him, struggles with anger issues. ;)

[JeneralMom]

My boys, I think, are enjoying the surface story, but sometimes say things to me which make me think they are getting some of the subtler aspects on some level. Although, I will admit, that it took a second reading for me to get all the subtler things. The other thing that made it interesting for me was listening to the authour give a commencement speech and talking about her work with refugees and torture victims and you can see so much of that seeping through the books - loyalty, redemption, betrayal.

 

Although I think the surface story is very "young", I think the back story and between the lines is very mature and subtle. I will encourage the kids to re-read the stories when they are older.

 

I do love the movies, but I find they really concentrate on the surface story and miss out on alot of the back story.

[FaithManor]

I have explained it this way and my kids got it. The story line parallels the rise of Hitler and Nazi's. The allegory is very strong. So, if a half Jewish child were raised with and became best friends with a German, Aryan child whose family embraced Nazism and as a result of the deep rise in hatred of parents, culture, etc. this best friend chose to or appeared to choose (and Snape did, for a very long time) to believe that "mugbloods" - ie. Jews - were inherently evil and should die, then it isn't a matter of forgiveness. It becomes a matter of self-preservation. Lily had something deeper at stake than just the fact that her friend called her a name...that name calling was a sign of a deep, sadistic, underlying hatred and certainly a hatred she could not have anything to do with no matter how much it might hurt to reject her friend.

 

This wasn't a matter of kids being kids or something heated being said in a dark moment. It went deeper and Snape showed that he was allowing illogical rhetoric, murderous hate, and a violent political ideology to take hold of his heart, he was succombing to the pressure of his pure-blood folks and their petty circle something that would only bring danger to Lily and to Snape for that matter.

 

It mirrors what happened in WWII. Lines just like these were drawn in many, many relationships and a lot of people felt the agony. Like our American Civil War, families were divided on the basis of an ideology that one embraced and the brother, sister, cousin, etc. would not. Forgiveness can actually be some what easily proferred by those with a natural bent towards peace making, but reconcilliation when life and liberty are on the line, is not so easily extended.

 

Lily's rejection of Snape was nothing more than self preservation and Snape, for embracing such a foul ideology, got what he deserved. Yes, he redeemed himself in the end, but not when Lily was alive to see that her friend's heart was not entirely black.

 

Faith

[Shawna in Texas]

 

So, seeing as this is such a great discussion, let me add another aspect - in his effort to be "accepted" by the purebloods/Death Eaters he reviles Lily and all "mudbloods". Do you think he redeems himself for his "betrayal" of Lily and his joining the Death Eaters, through his actions (i.e. devoting his life to Lily's memory and protecting Harry?)

 

And I can't possibly be the only one who thought the death scene, where he asks Harry to look into his eyes as he dies so the last thing he sees were Lily's eye, was absolutely heartbreaking.

 

I don't think Snape ever felt redeemed, although he absolutely was. Certainly Lily would have thought so, and that's what mattered to him. He had to do really horrible things to play his part. You would have to be a certain kind of person to kill a mentor and I'm sure that just added to whatever he was feeling. I was always wondered if Lily chose James initially to show Snape that she was making a choice for the side of Light. James represented the Light.

 

Severus Snape is probably my favorite character I've ever read.

[amey311]

As an aside, i've read things that said that Jo Rowling talked to Alan Rickman alone during the filming of one of the first movies (which I'm pretty sure was done before the 7th book was published) - I wonder if she had this resolution for Snape planned and let him know about it or let him know more of Snape's back story? Snape comes with a lot of baggage - he's not just a strict teacher. KWIM? I think knowing a bit more about his character's history would be a help in how Rickman portrayed the character.

 

I'm going to see if Thing 2 would like to reread the books with me.

[Desert Rat]

There are two ways to read any well-written book. Younger kids will read it and enjoy it for the basic plot on the surface. Other children and adults will read between the lines and enjoy the deeper conflicts and themes.

 

I've read many books to my boys (now 11 and 8) that other people may think of us too mature. They have always handled them just fine. I think the reason they have is exactly as Joann has said. My boys don't pick up on the finer naunces in the story. They don't puzzle out human reactions. They like the story.

[Lady Florida.]

Lily Potter is always described as loving, caring, kind, sweet, etc. However, one of the main story components rests on her being extremely cruel and unforgiving so how do you reconcile these two things. Let me explain. Snape is her childhood best friend, the person who taught her about being magical. They remained dear friends through Hogwarts even though they drifted a little, but she is willing to shut him completely out of her life and never have anything to do with him because he once called her a bad name. However, she is perfectly willing to forgive and forget James, Sirius and Lupin who tortured her best friend for years, even planning a trick on him which would have killed him. How do you reconcile these two sides of a character?

 

 

 

I think of his calling her mudblood as the final straw. She didn't cut him off just because of that. It was his gradual leaning towards Voldemort and his becoming a deatheater. She mentions that. When he called her that, it was the attitude behind it more than just the name calling. She actually defended him for a long time, and put up with his leanings towards evil because she knew him when he was a sad little boy. The name calling pushed her over the edge and she finally (but I think with a bit of a heavy heart) had to cut him out of her life.

[mo2]

I've always thought it was more because he chose to be evil. She knew what the death eaters were, what they did, what Snape wanted to be. She tried ignoring it as much as she could, but when he called her that it just cemented it in her mind that he had chosen a very different path, one she couldn't support. They don't explain much about how she ended up with James, but I doubt it was an overnight thing.

 

 

:iagree: I think it had more to do with him becoming involved in the Dark Arts, death eaters, etc, than him calling her Mudblood. That was just the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak.

[SailorMom]

She was willing to forgive him the name calling. It was the people he had been associating with, who were already calling themselves "death eaters" that she could not accept.....

 

ETA - sorry - should have read all the other posts first :)

[Carol in Cal.]

I don't respect Snape as much as all that.

 

He is never doing things for the right reasons, even when he does noble ones. He has no true allegience to Dumbledore, even though he works undercover for him for years. He has not learned to love. He is only obsessed, forever and for everything, with Lily. It's sad, it's tragic, and it's really not love exactly--more like the sick obsession of a stalker. And, yes, it has some good results, but still, he is not a man that is whole or good. I think that HP is grateful to him for his admittedly significant accomplishments, performed at great danger to himself; and for the link with his mother. But I think that his rehabilitation at the end of book 7 is more like a realization that someone isn't wholly bad after all than a finding that someone is completely good.

 

Who I respect a great deal in the book, probably almost more than anyone else, is Neville Longbottom. Why? He is always fighting for good, no matter what the odds. He has no magic powers of his own, and yet he comes out of the castle to challenge Voldemort when all is lost, just because it is the right thing to do. That act is as noble as HP going to give himself up--the context being that he has no magic powers, HP is dead, and the castle breached. He comes out and challenges V after he appears to have already won, and he does it alone. Now there's a hero!

[mo2]

 

Who I respect a great deal in the book, probably almost more than anyone else, is Neville Longbottom. Why? He is always fighting for good, no matter what the odds. He has no magic powers of his own, and yet he comes out of the castle to challenge Voldemort when all is lost, just because it is the right thing to do. That act is as noble as HP going to give himself up--the context being that he has no magic powers, HP is dead, and the castle breached. He comes out and challenges V after he appears to have already won, and he does it alone. Now there's a hero!

 

 

:iagree:

[Lady Florida.]

I don't respect Snape as much as all that.

 

He is never doing things for the right reasons, even when he does noble ones.

 

Yes! I thought I was the only one who didn't think much of Snape. Well, not the only one. Dh and ds feel the same. He does the right things but for the wrong reasons. And the way he treated students wasn't necessary to play his part. He was mean to CHILDREN just for the pleasure of it. And holding a grudge against an innocent child for the perceived sin of his father just made him even more unlikeable. Complex yes. Brave? Yes. Pitiable? Not in my book.

 

 

 

Who I respect a great deal in the book, probably almost more than anyone else, is Neville Longbottom.

 

Neville and Luna are two of my favorite characters. Luna for intelligence and insight that few give her credit for having. And Neville for how much his character grew over the series. That he was brave and a true Gryffindor was evident from the very first book, but he needed to come out from under the shadow of his famous parents. We reread the books often, and I always love watching Neville's transformation over time.

[Jenny in Florida]

I've always thought it was more because he chose to be evil. She knew what the death eaters were, what they did, what Snape wanted to be. She tried ignoring it as much as she could, but when he called her that it just cemented it in her mind that he had chosen a very different path, one she couldn't support.

 

That's what I gleaned, too.

[Jenny in Florida]

So, seeing as this is such a great discussion, let me add another aspect - in his effort to be "accepted" by the purebloods/Death Eaters he reviles Lily and all "mudbloods". Do you think he redeems himself for his "betrayal" of Lily and his joining the Death Eaters, through his actions (i.e. devoting his life to Lily's memory and protecting Harry?)

 

And I can't possibly be the only one who thought the death scene, where he asks Harry to look into his eyes as he dies so the last thing he sees were Lily's eye, was absolutely heartbreaking.

 

In some ways, I think Snape is the most interesting character in the series. And I think it's his story almost as much as it is Harry's.

 

I do think he earns redemption, although I'm not sure he believes he has.

[Jenny in Florida]

Who I respect a great deal in the book, probably almost more than anyone else, is Neville Longbottom. Why? He is always fighting for good, no matter what the odds. He has no magic powers of his own, and yet he comes out of the castle to challenge Voldemort when all is lost, just because it is the right thing to do. That act is as noble as HP going to give himself up--the context being that he has no magic powers, HP is dead, and the castle breached. He comes out and challenges V after he appears to have already won, and he does it alone. Now there's a hero!

 

I love Neville, too. While Harry has greatness thrust upon him, as the saying goes, Neville works hard to become great.

 

However, I'm not sure what you mean about him having no magic powers? Neville is not a squib. It just takes him a while to find out what kind of magic best matches his natural talents.

[Lizzie in Ma]

SPOILER ALERT - DO NOT READ THIS IF YOU HAVE NOT READ DEATHLY HALLOWS

 

My DH reads a chapter or two of HP every night to the boys (and girls if they are still awake) and he is on Deathly Hallows now. I have always had a problem with one of the story elements in this book and I know at least my DS6 will pick up on it too, so I am wondering how you would explain this to your child. Here goes:

 

Lily Potter is always described as loving, caring, kind, sweet, etc. However, one of the main story components rests on her being extremely cruel and unforgiving so how do you reconcile these two things. Let me explain. Snape is her childhood best friend, the person who taught her about being magical. They remained dear friends through Hogwarts even though they drifted a little, but she is willing to shut him completely out of her life and never have anything to do with him because he once called her a bad name. However, she is perfectly willing to forgive and forget James, Sirius and Lupin who tortured her best friend for years, even planning a trick on him which would have killed him. How do you reconcile these two sides of a character?

 

My DS7 will probably just accept it at face value, but I know my DS6 will probably pick up on the inconsistency like I did (it is like a thorn under my skin).

 

It wasn't just because he called her a name. She watched him drifting into the dark side and hang with Voldemort's crowd and she saw him becoming someone she couldn't be friends with anymore.

I have a little trouble understanding how she fell in love with James when he behaved that way, but we can't forget that we only ever saw this behavior from Snape's point of view alone. I am willing to give her the benefit of the doubt. You could try the Harry Potter for Grown Ups yahoo group for some more help.

[Jennifer3141]

I love Neville, too. While Harry has greatness thrust upon him, as the saying goes, Neville works hard to become great.

 

However, I'm not sure what you mean about him having no magic powers? Neville is not a squib. It just takes him a while to find out what kind of magic best matches his natural talents.

 

Not to sound like a complete nerd but Neville's an expert with plant magick - not flashy but pretty darn cool if you've ever lost a beloved plant. :001_smile:

[Paisley Hedgehog]

nm

[Mrs Mungo]

He has no true allegience to Dumbledore,

 

I totally disagree with, that what leads you to that conclusion?

 

He has not learned to love. He is only obsessed, forever and for everything, with Lily. It's sad, it's tragic, and it's really not love exactly--more like the sick obsession of a stalker.

Again, I totally disagree. I think he does love Dumbledore. When Harry is in the cave with the locket, making Dumbledore drink the liquid there is a hint of the sort of thing Dumbledore has required of Snape.

 

And, yes, it has some good results, but still, he is not a man that is whole or good.

He may not be whole, and he may not be completely good, but few of us are without fault. It's true he picks on some kids. But is he truly cruel to them? Does he treat them the way Barty Crouch does as the DADA teacher? No, he doesn't. Do a *lot* of the teachers do things that could be looked upon as cruel if Harry viewed them as he viewed Snape? Probably. In a lot of cases it's only Harry's perception of events that make them seem cruel.

 

Who I respect a great deal in the book, probably almost more than anyone else, is Neville Longbottom. Why? He is always fighting for good, no matter what the odds. He has no magic powers of his own, and yet he comes out of the castle to challenge Voldemort when all is lost, just because it is the right thing to do. That act is as noble as HP going to give himself up--the context being that he has no magic powers, HP is dead, and the castle breached. He comes out and challenges V after he appears to have already won, and he does it alone. Now there's a hero!

It is true that Neville has a nobility and inherent goodness. But he absolutely has magical powers. It is completely wrong to say that he doesn't. In fact, there are hints of greatness once he gets his own wand and comes into his own. Edited April 26, 2011 by Mrs Mungo

[JeneralMom]

I have to agree that, love him or hate him, Snape is one of the most interesting characters in the series. Right now, my kids hate Snape because he killed Dumbledore. I disagree that he was not loyal to Dumbledore - the loyalty it takes to kill your mentor because he has ordered you to is astonishing. I also think he truly loved Lily, and it was guilt for his part in her death that led him to devote his life to her memory, not some stalkerish obsession. Yes, he ended up being a bitter, nasty person but I think his core was good.

 

I adore Neville. I love the parallels between him and Harry - both parents "taken" from them by Voldemort or his crew, both born in July, etc. Could just have easily been Neville the prophesy talked about. I love his journey and the heroic ending where he kills a horcrux (Nagini) knowing that it will probably be the end of him. I always wished he and Luna ended up together.

 

The other character who I think gets short-changed is Mrs. Weasley. Although she seems to always be operating in the background, it is really her presence that gives, not only her family, but Harry and to a certain degree, Hermione a grounding, a safe place, love. And she is kick-a$$ in the end!!!

[Saille]

I asked my nine and seven-year-olds about this after I read the thread. The first words out of Will's mouth were, "Don't you remember? Snape snuck into the Shrieking Shack to see what they were doing, and Lupin was in werewolf form and tried to attack him. James saved his life!"

 

I had completely forgotten about that.

 

Will thinks this explains a lot of the resentment on both sides. Snape resents being saved by someone he loathes, James resents his fundamental ingratitude and his tendency to slime around with Death Eaters. Both behave badly.

 

But what we saw was one vignette during seven years of schooling. And we know that Lily didn't approve, and told James so. I like the idea that he grew and changed over time, and that respect for Lily may have caused him to take a good hard look at himself along the way. I think he earned her respect, while Snape sought the respect of all the wrong people.

[mommymilkies]

It wasn't just because he called her a name. She watched him drifting into the dark side and hang with Voldemort's crowd and she saw him becoming someone she couldn't be friends with anymore.

I have a little trouble understanding how she fell in love with James when he behaved that way, but we can't forget that we only ever saw this behavior from Snape's point of view alone. I am willing to give her the benefit of the doubt. You could try the Harry Potter for Grown Ups yahoo group for some more help.

:iagree:

[Carol in Cal.]

I totally disagree with, that what leads you to that conclusion?

 

Again, I totally disagree. I think he does love Dumbledore. When Harry is in the cave with the locket, making Dumbledore drink the liquid there is a hint of the sort of thing Dumbledore has required of Snape.

It seems to me that Snape is not loyal to Dumbledore and does not love him. He loves Lili, for ever and always, obsessively, and goes to Dumbledore because of his love for her (or maybe Dumbledore approaches him because he knows of his love for her, I can't remember which.) Either way, it's the basis for his work with Dumbledore and his support of DA, which is grudging though very brave and effective. Dumbledore never entirely trusts him, although he entrusts a great TO him. Dumbledore never gives up on him, though.

 

He may not be whole, and he may not be completely good, but few of us are without fault. It's true he picks on some kids. But is he truly cruel to them? Does he treat them the way Barty Crouch does as the DADA teacher? No, he doesn't. Do a *lot* of the teachers do things that could be looked upon as cruel if Harry viewed them as he viewed Snape? Probably. In a lot of cases it's only Harry's perception of events that make them seem cruel.

 

He bears a genuine, tremendous, unreasonable resentment toward HP, even though he is protecting him. And it shows in his treatment of him. I have a profound disrespect for adults who behave that way toward children in their power, which I realize on reflection probably colors my view of this character more than the author intended.

 

It is true that Neville has a nobility and inherent goodness. But he absolutely has magical powers. It is completely wrong to say that he doesn't. In fact, there are hints of greatness once he gets his own wand and comes into his own.

 

This part about Neville, I just don't remember. I think that you're probably right even so. I never thought he was a squib, which means that I overstated things in my initial post (I can see that I did) but he certainly was largely inept at magic for most of the series--very weak, though not entirely a squib. So this progress is what I probably don't remember very well--my impression is that when he started to fight he didn't really use magic very much, because he wasn't any good at it--isn't that right? That's why I was so completely in awe of him coming out to face Voldemort--because he was the last student who was likely to even remotely survive, and he did it anyway, solely because it was the right thing to do. The first time I read that, I actually cried (I NEVER cry reading books). But the truth is, I have not read the books in quite a while, and it seems from what you said that I remembered this issue as more black and white than it actually was. I still like him, though!

[Annie]

It is true that Neville has a nobility and inherent goodness. But he absolutely has magical powers. It is completely wrong to say that he doesn't. In fact, there are hints of greatness once he gets his own wand and comes into his own.

 

I agree that there are definitely hints of greatness in Neville. He's one if my favorite characters. I think the chapter when he went to visit his parents was one of the most heartbreaking in the series. His parents had been tortured until they were no longer able to function, he was raised by a cranky woman who let him know that he did not meet her expectations, he had a difficult time with a lot of magic, and he was bullied almost endlessly, yet he was still incredibly brave and loyal.

 

 

I also agree about Mrs. Weasley. Her bravery hit me while I was watching the last movie. When Harry and Hagrid return to the Burrow first, it's painfully clear how virtually her whole world is up in the skies. As a mother, I can't imagine what kind of a wreck I would be with four of my sons and my husband in danger like that.