Unschooling, when it doesn't work?

[Wee Pip]

I'm working on a series of articles for my blog that compares Unschooling with traditional types of learning (anything that sets the agenda for the child and assess what they should learn and when they should learn it). I'll have more questions on this, but to get me started -

When does Unschooling NOT work? (Outside of abusive situations, where parents are completely negligent or just plain horrible). What about loving families that provide what they can for children? When does unschooling fail? What are the reasons that unschooling does not work for a family? Thanks!

[Carol in Cal.]

When, instead of persevering in trying to learn something (some vital skill like reading or math), a child decides that (s)he is 'dumb' and can't learn like other kids can. That's the point for the parent to step in and say, oh yes you can, here's how--and force the issue. That's not consistent with unschooling, but sometimes it's necessary.

 

As I have said before, we have to teach our ACTUAL children, not some theoretical child we learned about somewhere. Some kids really will not learn the skills stuff without active teaching, sometimes enforced active teaching. If that is unacceptable to a parent, they have to step in. I would argue that it should be unacceptable, or we aren't really doing our jobs.

 

Having said that, there is a big difference between that scenerio and just holding off until the child is older than 'normal' to teach a specific skill. No problem with that if everyone is happy with it.

[mamakimberly]

I'm pretty sure that if I tried unschooling, my 6yo would not have any desire to do anything other than lay on the floor making castles out of cardboard boxes.

 

She needs that guidance.

 

My older daughter has the desire and passion to learn and WANTS to know the why, when, where, what, how of everything. My younger daughter just wants to tape cardboard pieces together and roll her r's to make fun sounds.

 

I, personally, think that unschooling would only work for that passionate child who truly seeks to learn. For the unmotivated learner... not so much.

[Greenmama2]

I think unschooling would "fail" when the child has an undiagnosed learning disability. What is seen as a lack of interest is really a lack of ability.

 

Unschooler here and I agree.

As for cardboard castles, I wish my almost five year old would do that. She'd rather do maths or Latin or watch magic school bus. Independent play would rock my world.

[Penelope]

Probably depends on how you define unschooling. I know a few unschoolers IRL who would make sure the child learns some basic skills even if the child doesn't feel like learning them. In other words, not all unschoolers neglect to do math until their child asks to do it in the fifth grade. :)

 

Also depends on how you define "fail". Many unschoolers definitions of a good education are very different from those of a classical homeschooler. Probably many unschoolers would "fail" according to my definition, even if they were a huge success according to theirs.

 

My answer, though, would be that they fail when they neglect to teach basic skills with the idea that all children will naturally pick them up in time. Especially in the area of reading.

[RoundAbout]

I think unschooling would be considered a failure when a child fails to learn the basic skills required to do continued self-learning - poor reading skills for example.

 

Also one of the basic principles of unschooling seems to be that kids can pick up and go whenever they are interested. One often hears stories about kids who didn't do a lick of math until they were 17, then decided they wanted to be engineers and 'caught themselves up' overnight. In reality I think this is rare, and that an avoided subject will become more intimidating over time. I've heard of more than a few unschoolers with confidence issues.

 

I think for unschooling to succeed one also needs a very intellectually rich and supportive environment. If a kid is all fired up to learn about something, the parent needs to be willing to put in the time and effort to support that with field trips, books, materials, etc. That's true of all homeschooling I suppose, but it seems critical with unschooling.

 

So I would say failure involves:

 

-lack of basic skills

-lack of confidence

-lack of support

-undiagnosed learning disability

[lakotajm]

:bigear::lurk5:

[BlsdMama]

When does Unschooling NOT work? (Outside of abusive situations, where parents are completely negligent or just plain horrible). What about loving families that provide what they can for children? When does unschooling fail? What are the reasons that unschooling does not work for a family? Thanks!

 

I think homeschooling doesn't work when you don't have a naturally curious family. I think homeschooling can't work when it's entirely child led/focused.

 

What does one do when a child shows no interest (ever) in learning something that ought be learned?

 

It's a bit like the theory that given healthy food and junk, children will intuitively choose good food that makes them feel good. It's lovely in theory... It just doesn't play out that way.

 

On the other hand, many forms of education can ignore a child's gifts and focus on what must be learned and teach it in a way that is dry and doesn't inspire learning.

[linders]

I like the concept behind unschooling, but after a few years homeschooling my two, I don't think it would work with all children.

 

DS10 simply has the type of personality in which he does the bare minimum at whatever he is doing, even if it is something he chose to do on his own, even begged to do. This is true with academics, scouts, sports, fun projects. He might start something but has no inclination to pursue it without imposed structure and a set of requirements. Unschooling would likely have been a poor choice for him.

 

DS7 is a ravenous learner. There isn't a subject that doesn't interest him, he reads books and creates projects on his own, expands upon them, asks for more resources, and even documents what he has learned/done - all with virtually no coaching. He finishes the schoolwork I assign then might decide, "I want to learn about mountains today." At the end of the day, he has made a poster showing types of mountains and locating famous mountains of the world. My input? To provide posterboard when asked. I couldn't even think of a good book for him to use, but he browsed our bookshelves and found some.

 

I'm curious about the experiences of others.

[lorrainejmc]

I think unschooling would "fail" when the child has an undiagnosed learning disability. What is seen as a lack of interest is really a lack of ability.

 

:iagree:

 

I tried it the first year with ds, he spent the whole year on the swing or looking at books but wouldn't let me read them to him. Now we have structure and teach as a family, he is thriving. He has SPD and selective mutism.

[frankcassiesmom]

Also I think for SOME families with lots of children it would be very hard to keep up with everyone's changing interests. I would not be able to keep on top of just my 3 different schooling ones right now if we had to research their interest on the internet, then go to the library, come up with hands on things for them to do in that interest, then find coloring pages for it, etc. etc. Within a week I'd be so overwhelmed I'd give up. If I had one child, I think it'd be fun. But keeping up with 3, 4, 5 or more different interests that changed every week (cause they're kids after all!) and making sure to tie in math and history, etc. into each interest on all of them? Oy. Not for me. We'd NEVER do anything if I had to school that way LOL.

[LibraryLover]

.

[radiobrain]

Let me approach this from a different angle....

 

I feel like I was unschooled, while going to a very good private school. What I mean to say is that my parents let me follow my lead on interests, trusted my opinions, didn't force me to do anything, didn't even give me "their" reasons on why I should or shouldn't do certain things. I was extremely intelligent, but left to my own devices and whims. Needless to say, I barely made it out of high school. Luckily, I could write an essay at the drop of a hat, and did excellent on tests. ;) I still resent my parents for not guiding (or forcing me) in some way when I was younger.

 

I have always felt like in order to make unschooling work successfully, it would take a LOT of work. Far more work than I would be willing to commit. But if you have naturally curious kids, who enjoy challenging themselves and have an inner drive, unschooling would be far easier, and make a certain amount of sense. I don't think it would work for the ones who don't like to do much.

 

All the unschoolers that I know (and I know plenty) have very different ideas about what the term means. One of my friends has a 12 yo who can't read. She still is waiting for it to click. Um... that's just not right. I know another whose kid is ready to go to college at 14. Then there are a million whose kids are in the middle, happy and average, just going along, and everything will most likely be totally fine, even great. I just don't think you can know until your kids are adults how well you did, no matter what form of education you choose.

 

I think that when unschooling can fail most easily, is when the parent buys into the philosophy that the kids will learn something when they want to, and that kids are capable of making mature decisions. That assumes that they will want to learn, and learn things that are important. I don't think that a kid would be naturally led to algebra, unless they were interested in math in the first place. I don't think that a kid would want to learn a lot of things that are important to function well in our society.

 

My friend who was a big unschooler back in the beginning, like hardcore, has told me what a mistake it was... her older kids still are angry with her, as so many things are harder for them now, because they just weren't prepared for it. Yes, they did learn when they had to, but many of the neuron pathways were probably closed forever, and it was very difficult for them. They took a less unschooly approach with the younger kids, and they are much happier.

 

I suppose that you just need to be flexible. Some days, being more unschooly is good, but other days I believe you just need to buckle down and do stuff.

 

Then there are the plain, old, lazy parents, who use the unschooling philosophy as a way to validate their poor decisions. I think THAT will always fail.

[Jenny in Florida]

We started drifting toward unschooling one year when my daughter was about 10. She hated it. She felt very insecure and just craved more structure and outside verification.

 

My son would love the idea of unschooling, I'm sure. But he also freely admits he would be unlikely to do much of anything meaningful if I didn't assign it.

[LibraryLover]

I'll play. :)

 

Unschooling means the child decides what to learn, when to learn it, and whether to continue or discontinue on a particular path. The answer to when it doesn't work is dependant upon whether the child and parent share the same ideas. If the parent and child have the same agenda; it works. Unschooling is child-led.

 

Let's take an example. Can you unschool teaching sentence diagramming? Sure. But only if the child agrees, and she continues, of her own volition, to practice it until she understands what she is doing. Unless the child has asked, or agreed to your suggestion that she might want to learn this skill, you can't unschool this, or anything.

Unschoolers first ask themselves if it is important to the child. Does the child want to learn this, did he ask you to teach it, or agree to your suggestion? They accept that the child may change his mind at any time. When everyone is on board, the diagramming begins.

 

If the child decides after a time that she really doesn't want to learn this skill right now, the parent lets it go. It's over. If the child comes back to it, the parent is there to facilitate and 'teach' it. There is no unschooling 'rule' that a parent cannot teach a child something, or even use a textbook...as long as all desire to learn something comes from the child.

 

So, the question is more "Can unschooling work to teach children things that do not interest them, but are things parents want their children to learn?" If unschooling and forced parental agendas are not compatible, does what work? It is possible that the child shares the parent’s educational agenda freely, or that the parent’s agenda is about always following the lead of the child.

 

Continuing to teach sentence diagramming to a disinterested, balking child 'in a fun way', without textbooks is still not unschooling. Teaching this skill to a child who wants to learn it, and asks you to teach it, is unschooling...and it's still unschooling even if you use a resource such as Rod & Staff, or other materials.

 

An unschooling parent doesn't worry if a child doesn't want a classical education. They trust the child will learn everything then need to know, when they need to know it. Unschoolers generally do not have a list of books they think all people must read. There is not a canon of knowledge unschoolers believe people should know or 'share'. Moby Dick is not valued over other books, and reading is not valued over other activites.

 

Radical unschooling is ...postmodernist… for sure. ;)

Edited April 11, 2011 by LibraryLover

[Guest mrsajoy]

I think it depends on how one defines unschooling. We are unschoolers, but that doesn't mean my children do not ever learn, and that they can do whatever they want. I am always introducing new things and new concepts and they have to give it a try, and if they don't like it, that's fine. I have my four year old asking all the time to do Hooked on Phonics, and my three year old sees her sister wanting to do them, and so she wants to do them. My 6 ds is always asking to give him a math problem, and to read our history text. They learn science by finding plants and animals outside and looking them up. We also learn from real life. I was pulled over by the police one day for speeding, and the kids were in the car with me. I had my older two help me keep track of the speed limit, and that is how they learned to read double digits. I don't think my children are out of the ordinary, I think that they see how I think learning is fun and they pick up on that.

 

I think unschooling doesn't work, when the parent just doesn't have any passion or desire for learning, and their children feed off of that, and therefore doesn't have any passion or desire of learning.

[Just Robyn]

I feel like I was unschooled, while going to a very good private school. What I mean to say is that my parents let me follow my lead on interests, trusted my opinions, didn't force me to do anything, didn't even give me "their" reasons on why I should or shouldn't do certain things. I was extremely intelligent, but left to my own devices and whims. Needless to say, I barely made it out of high school. Luckily, I could write an essay at the drop of a hat, and did excellent on tests. ;) I still resent my parents for not guiding (or forcing me) in some way when I was younger.

 

 

 

:iagree: This is true for me as well, and I have heard this many times from others. As for me and many people I know, our parents wanted to allow us more freedom than we were ready for, I guess, because we made lazy choices that we deeply regretted later. I would also add that as for my mother, she took a very hands-off approach to my education overall, trusting the public schools to do a good job even when presented with evidence that they weren't.

 

Anyway, I don't want to put my children in that type of situation. They're children. It doesn't matter how many times I explain the real world to them. It will be quite some time before they fully understand the consequences of not doing their math.

 

When I first started looking into homeschooling I was inspired by the idea of unschooling and wanted to give it a try. I quickly found out that my children, while wanting to know things, didn't want to put in the work it takes to learn. They will say they want to learn or do something, find out it requires time and effort, and give up - repeatedly. I wasn't going to allow my children to decide that phonics, spelling, math, etc. are hard and give up.

 

In short, unschooling would not work for my family because my idea of a good education is not something my children have the natural drive to attain. It would fail because my children would learn very little compared to what I want them to learn and I would become frustrated.

[ChandlerMom]

One thing I do not understand about unschooling is that it seems to be encouraging a mindset that we only need to do and learn things that we want. If I only cooked food when I wanted or changed a diaper when I wanted, I'd really suck as a parent. :D In the workplace, even the coolest jobs are usually at BEST about wanting to be there more days than not. As a researcher, my days were pretty tedious except for that brief payoff maybe every year or two where I knew I was looking at something or understood something that no one else in the world did (then I ran into the office next door to tell a colleague :D). How does unschooling teach a child perseverance to slog up the hill to ever see the awesome view? Beyond that, I don't think I want my kids evaluating learning based on interest alone since I think there are other metrics to consider (need, marketability, opening future options, etc). Again, in my work if I even thought about "am I interested in X today" I wouldn't enjoy it very much. Some stuff you just DO and are better off not dwelling on whether it is a joy (ok, diapers came back to mind). :)

 

As a kid I steered away from some areas because I didn't think I would be good at them, though I never said that. I wished someone had made me at least try them. I think the perfectionist or unadventurous kid might struggle with unschooling. The fearless risk taker or adventurer would probably be a good candidate for unschooling. So, I would think the personality of the child could make unschooling fail.

 

[ETA: I don't understand the ins and outs of unschooling and my questions above are sincere. My hs style is very child-led and adaptive to their interests, but there are also minimums we do each day that are non-negotiable. I also try to make sure they try new things, even if at first they aren't too sure about it. :) ]

Edited April 11, 2011 by ChandlerMom

[Greta]

I can't speak from experience with unschooling, but only from experience with my daughter. She is the type to rise to a challenge. If I give her something difficult to do, she will want to do it and try her best. But if things are too easy, she stops caring and gets lazy and unmotivated. But she doesn't usually seek out challenges on her own. She would very happily watch tv or play video games all day if I would let her. To me, this says that unschooling would not "work" for her - and by work, I am interpreting you to mean generally preparing a child for the requirements of adulthood, including but not limited to higher education.

[stripe]

I think another problem is being very fickle, and letting your fancies determine what you learn, to the exclusion of all else. Sometimes you don't realize something would interest you, or things take time to push beyond your comfort level before you begin to enjoy them. Sometimes a broad knowledge benefits you in ways you don't expect; you are able to pull threads together. Reminds me of Andrew Wiles' unexpected method of solving Fermat's Last Theorem.

 

I do think it is important to learn perseverance as well. I think it can be very difficult, when you yourself are uneducated about something, to decide what is important to learn.

 

Maybe it's also important to learn the difference between coercion and guidance?

 

And sometimes something seems boring or hard, and so is discarded, simply because the material wasn't well presented the first time?

 

Somehow this reminds me of vegetarian cookbooks of the 1970s where the author decides s/he is an expert on Indian food, but has only sort of read things and experimented based on their own ideas and eating in a restaurant once or twice, and creates the master curry recipe into which any and all vegetable matter may be inserted for really groovy results....but maybe I am just hungry???

[Paisley Hedgehog]

nm

[mcconnellboys]

I'm watching some experiments in progress right now. I think until the children are grown and in their mid-20's or so it will be too soon to say that it definitely "didn't work." I think when parents live a learning lifestyle and surround their children with only good choices (so that no matter how they choose to spend their time it is productive in some way) then they will probably get good results (as with most of the children in the Colfax family, for instance).

 

Unfortunately, I'm seeing a lot of kids being allowed to choose to say 'no' to providing assistance around the home (even a fair share of family duties) and allowed to spend most of their time in front of TV screens and playing video games. While there may be some few benefits to playing video games, I still think that the bad side effects are going to far outweigh any good as we move forward in time (and some studies are already beginning to suggest this with regard to any computer usage of any type: The Shallows, etc.)....

[Rosie_0801]

Unschooling wouldn't work around here because it would burn me out too quickly. If EVERYTHING was of equal importance, I'd have to be on high alert all the time. And I wouldn't know where to spend my money.

 

I'm not convinced that my structured education taught me perseverance. I had to climb the Hill of Trig, but I couldn't see a view once I got there because the instruction was the equivalent of "put your foot there, now put it there, now put it there." How would I learn to persevere when no one taught me the climbing skills and I was too young to know there were any? It seems the best way for us will be "You need to get your foot to there, can you work out how?"

 

Rosie

Edited April 11, 2011 by Rosie_0801

[Mandy in TN]

Almost any method of schooling may not work well if you have a child with undiagnosed learning differences.

 

Unschooling isn't a method of schooling where parents allow children to lay around and do nothing educational all day- or at least it shouldn't be. The Colfaxes were very inspirational to me and John Holt never suggested raising children to be unable to function as adults.

 

I wish I could homeschool as an unschooler, but frankly classical education is easier and takes much less time on my part! Unschooling typically fails when families who keep their kids at home without providing an education use the word unschooling to mean not schooling. Unschooling fails when it isn't viewed as a way of life and a full-time job by the parent. Also, unschooling is certainly easier with a parent who is energetic and creative.

 

Unschooling is incredibly hard work for the parent! For learning to happen without the convenience of common educational materials and the typical educator/ pupil construct is hard work. Modeling how to be an active learner, engaging life as a learning experience, using play to help children understand the world without turning their play into a "teaching moment," constantly putting your children in situations where they have to interact with new information and in general letting a child figure something out instead of instructing them in how it should be done is hard, hard work.

 

I wish I could be Micki Colfax, but I need guidance and my husband likes school work that can be put away when he gets home thus creating a division between learning time and the rest of the day. Sadly, my children will have to settle for a classical/ traditional/ eclectic education.

 

Mandy

Edited April 11, 2011 by Mandy in TN

[Ellie]

"Unschooling" and "what ought to be learned" are words that cannot co-exist.

 

Parents who are unschooling don't sit around waiting for their dc to be interested in something, and then leap in with guns a-blazing. They involve their dc in normal household activities--even banal ones like cleaning and laundry and whatnot. They find things to do and bring their dc along with them. If the dc are interested in something they might help/nudge dc in that direction...or not, because they're just as likely to let the dc do the nudging on their own.

 

Unschooling is not unlearning. It isn't undisciplining (although some unschooling parents have dreadfully behaved dc. Oh, wait...some just-like-schooling parents have dc who are dreadfully behaved, too.).

 

Unschoolers rarely get to be 18yo with no skills whatsoever. Children *do* want to learn. They *are* curious. But often what happens is that parents have their ideas about what "ought to be learned," and when the dc aren't interested in those things, at a time when the parents think they should be, or in the order in which parents think those things "ought to be learned," that's when the parents decide that their dc are "unmotivated" or not curious.

 

It's all in one's perceptions.

[Ellie]

An unschooling friend has a dd who wasn't reading at 13yo. Today that dd is enrolled in college, because one day she decided that yes, in fact, she did want to learn to read, and more. She crammed a whole bunch of years of dreary schoolwork and lessons into a short amount of time and got it all, first time around.

[Peela]

I am actually inspired by unschooling and know people IRL who do it. I didnt feel I could follow it with my ds because when he came home from school (to homeschool) he was very damaged and felt stupid and didnt feel he could learn, and so had given up trying. Yes, he had undiagnosed LDs- dyslexia, but might have been one of those "better late that early" kids successfully IF he had never gone to school. I also had to satisfy my dh that ds was going to learn with me to get him on board with homeschooling- dh gave me a 6 months trial period to prove I could do this- I knew he wasnt going to go with uschooling. He needed to see us doing something like school to feel confident I wasn't ruining our kids.

I feel that "forcing" ds into a discipline of learning in a structured way overcame his lack of confidence- eventually. Whether he would have come to that place anyway, with an unschooling approach, I will never know, but I would have been a nervous wreck "waiting".

SO to some extent- I could not have handled the wait, the risk. Its probably a personality thing- but given perhaps a different natured dh, or more support for unschooling, I might have gone that way.

 

The other aspect is, like the pp mentioned about the "idealism" of allowing a child to eat what they naturally feel drawn to....I feel that it is sugar and junk foods that tend to "pervert" that tendency, and they are so prevalent that by about age 3, it is virtually impossible to protect a child from them. In the same way, I feel that computers and various forms of electronic entertainment tend to "pervert" the natural tendency toward exploring and learning in a more holistic and healthy, natural way. The electronics tend to feed any addictive tendency, and overstimulate and provide instant stimulation and feedback in a way that reading and building tree houses doesn't. So I think we have many "dangers" and obstacles to the ideal of unschooling in our society- although living out on a farm without electronics or access to junk foods etc might mitigate that to some extent.

 

I do think there are some great models of educational approaches that are fairly child led and child empowering, while at the same time provide structure and a group approach. I have seen videos of schools in Russia where the kids are doing incredibly advanced things- real architecture etc, designing and planning unique buildings on their school grounds- with adult help and guidance, but not "control" in the way we tend to revert to. I think there is a lot of potential with the right people and approach, for bringing out a certain brilliance in many kids. I have never ben completely confident that the approach I took with my kids was the best or ideal one for each of them individually- but it was the best I could manage under the circumstances, given my lack of experience. I might do it differently if I were to homeschool again.

[LibraryLover]

There is nothing quite like readiness combined with self-motivation.

 

An unschooling friend has a dd who wasn't reading at 13yo. Today that dd is enrolled in college, because one day she decided that yes, in fact, she did want to learn to read, and more. She crammed a whole bunch of years of dreary schoolwork and lessons into a short amount of time and got it all, first time around.

Edited April 12, 2011 by LibraryLover

[Sweetpeach]

I think "unschooling" demands tremendously confident parents. I'm currently watching two radically unschooling families do life and what I see are bright, well-rounded, interested, curious children. They seem like happy, well-adjusted children with all sorts of wide-open space to develop into who they truly are -- I like that. These parents are confidently watching their children and enjoying the surprise of seeing how they unfold.

 

What I see as a potential "failure" of an unschooling situation (and they wouldn't see this as failure so it's a perspective issue and who am I to say that my perspective is somehow more or less flawed than theirs) is this: a solid foundation for some skills, like writing, spelling, grammar, mathematical concepts, languare study is built over time. If an unschooler decided at some point to attend university, I think they might be confronted with a pile of basic academic skills that they would need to sift through in a relatively short period of time.

 

Some unschooling children who are naturally bright, gifted learners can pick up what they missed during a summer of intense study, will write the SAT and blow the scores out of the water, be accepted into a fine university and will carry on, thankful to have missed out on the doldrums of everyday daily learning. Not all children are bright and gifted; some find academic achievement after years of working and applying basic academic skills, and need parents to carefully and succintly lay down a foundation of basic skills which can support the weight of higher learning.

 

Writing is important; there is no way around needing solid research and writing skills if a student wants to attend university. I'm not sure how unschooled children magically pick up the basics of writing without practicing a skill that can be tedious. Same with mathematics and language learning -- there are skills that need daily, repetitive interaction in order to attain mastery. (I can hear my unschooler mom-friends saying to me: if a child doesn't have a certain skill set and didn't find it on their own, than it wasn't meant to be.)

 

The unschooling parents I know are very confident that their children will dig out a path that brings a meaningful and joyful life. As a parent, I don't have the confidence to allow my children that same luxury . . . if the perfect plan doesn't fall into place, I want to make sure they my children have some "back-up" skills (of the academic sort) which will ensure university admittance.

 

Warmly, Tricia

[DarlaS]

I

 

The other aspect is, like the pp mentioned about the "idealism" of allowing a child to eat what they naturally feel drawn to....I feel that it is sugar and junk foods that tend to "pervert" that tendency, and they are so prevalent that by about age 3, it is virtually impossible to protect a child from them. In the same way, I feel that computers and various forms of electronic entertainment tend to "pervert" the natural tendency toward exploring and learning in a more holistic and healthy, natural way. The electronics tend to feed any addictive tendency, and overstimulate and provide instant stimulation and feedback in a way that reading and building tree houses doesn't. So I think we have many "dangers" and obstacles to the ideal of unschooling in our society- although living out on a farm without electronics or access to junk foods etc might mitigate that to some extent.

 

 

This is what crossed my mind recently when reading "Instead of Education" recently. If John Holt knew about the internet & video games, he may have written that book a little differently (with lots of disclaimers...).

[stripe]

There is nothing quite like readiness combined with self-motivation.

Yes. The best example I've seen of this is language learning. However, I am less certain to what degree I've witnessed it personally in other arenas.

 

I do love the story of William Kamkwamba (who built the windmill to power his village). His parents couldn't afford to send him to school so he studied on his own and made his own tools.

[Haiku]

What are the reasons that unschooling does not work for a family?

 

Personality types on the part of the parent or child(ren) that do not thrive on an unstructured situation. If the parents or kids feel cranky and unfocused without structure, I think unschooling is likely not to work. I have two young kids with diverse interests, and I don't have the personality type to help the kids plan and organize projects and follow through one them, nor do I have the time or organizational skills to do this with two different kids. I'm not happy with a "What's up today?" approach to life. I like to know what's going to happen and see the path.

 

My kids are not single-minded enough to just have one or two things going at a time. They want ten, or to start whatever grabs their interest now NOW, not finish up what they have already started before shifting focus. We struggle with that in just keeping clutter to a minimum. I think that unschooling them would be an endless series of half-started, half-finished projects. I don't think it would make any of us happy.

 

Tara

[Jenny in GA]

 

Also depends on how you define "fail". Many unschoolers definitions of a good education are very different from those of a classical homeschooler. Probably many unschoolers would "fail" according to my definition, even if they were a huge success according to theirs.

 

 

 

Yes, I was in the on-line unschooler world for years, and they define success very differently from most people here.

 

For example, they could care less what "grade" their child would be in -- many people have said they honestly don't even know! -- or what someone in that grade level "should" be learning.

 

Most unschoolers truly think it is just fine for a ten or twelve year old to not be reading yet. They also think unschooling is going great even when their child is wathing six hours of TV every day for several weeks. (I am not exaggerating.) If the child wants to do it, then that's what the child's passion is, and it should be allowed, and that is successful unschooling.

 

I have an unschooler friend who, when by law she has to give a standardized test, tells her kids to just have fun decorating the paper with the bubbles. She absolutely does not care what the tests are asking or if her kids know it.

 

They seem to stress that their kids are happy, confident, kind, and "doing what they want." That is their definition of success, it seems. I'm not arguing with that, just reporting it.

[Jenny in GA]

 

Writing is important; there is no way around needing solid research and writing skills if a student wants to attend university. I'm not sure how unschooled children magically pick up the basics of writing without practicing a skill that can be tedious. Same with mathematics and language learning -- there are skills that need daily, repetitive interaction in order to attain mastery. (I can hear my unschooler mom-friends saying to me: if a child doesn't have a certain skill set and didn't find it on their own, than it wasn't meant to be.)

 

 

I have wondered this a lot and want to start a thread about it, when I can collect my thoughts a bit better.

 

I know one unschooler mother who said she never taught her child to write or gave writing lessons in any way. Her daughter had to take some college test requirement to write an essay (not sure exactly what the test was). She said that she spent about five minutes the day before the test explaining to her daughter what a topic sentence is, etc, and her daughter did great on the test.

 

I'm sure she is telling the truth, but I don't understand how this is possible.

 

Along the same lines, my unschooler friends say that, when a child is ready and interested -- age twelve, fifteen, whatever -- they can master all of k-8 math in about six weeks.

 

That seems hard to believe. If it's true, then I guess I am really foolish for making my kids put in years and years learning it!

 

The other comment that's very popular with unschooling "experts" is, "If the child doesn't have a true need tp learn that skill in the first 18 years of his life, then obviously it's not a very important skill."

[KrissiK]

I read through most of the responses on this thread and would tend to agree with them. I could tell you right now that unschooling would fail in my home. For the following reasons:

1) Both my children and I do better in a more structured environment. We just all operate much better when "school is school" and when we're done with school then we're done. I know they've worked at learning to read, do math and all that stuff and then I don't have to worry about it anymore.

2) My boys are not academically motivated. They like school all right, but left to their own devices they'd rather be doing sports, watching tv or playing video games or they just bicker (3 kids ages 8,7 &5). My oldest is easily bored and sometimes we even do school on holidays, just so we have something to do or they'll drive me crazy all day with their fussing with eachother. They have never seemed to take the lead and be interested in anything, except for dinosaurs and monster trucks and that'll only take you so far academically.

[Jenny in GA]

I think another problem is being very fickle, and letting your fancies determine what you learn, to the exclusion of all else. Sometimes you don't realize something would interest you, or things take time to push beyond your comfort level before you begin to enjoy them. Sometimes a broad knowledge benefits you in ways you don't expect; you are able to pull threads together. Reminds me of Andrew Wiles' unexpected method of solving Fermat's Last Theorem.

 

I do think it is important to learn perseverance as well. I think it can be very difficult, when you yourself are uneducated about something, to decide what is important to learn.

 

 

 

Yes, I think this sums up why we left the unschooling world and I'm glad we did.

 

For example, the well-known unschoolers feel strongly that kids should not be required to do any housework -- they should just do it naturally, when and if they want.

I remember questioning that, and Sandra Dodd saying, "Sure, if my kid is 18 and has never mopped a floor or cleaned a toilet -- so what? When they need to know, they'll ask someone, learn it in ten minutes, and go on with life. No problem."

 

I thought about that a lot and decided the "problem" was not that it is so hard to learn to mop a floor ... but that running a household involves a lot more than one or two tasks. And the hard thing (for me) is not that mopping a floor is so difficult, but that having routines and regularity and keeping all of it under control is!

 

Unschoolers as I hear unschoolers explain it involves a lot of "following whims." Immediately pursue something when it interests you at that moment, stop it on a dime when it no longer does. They are also big on multi-tasking and "half" doing things; ie, watching TV while doing something else, going in and out of the room while the parent is reading out loud, depending on whether the book is interesting them or not at that moment.

 

Obviously this works for some people, but these are definitely not the habits I want my kids to learn.

[Jenny in GA]

One thing I do not understand about unschooling is that it seems to be encouraging a mindset that we only need to do and learn things that we want. If I only cooked food when I wanted or changed a diaper when I wanted, I'd really suck as a parent. :D In the workplace, even the coolest jobs are usually at BEST about wanting to be there more days than not. As a researcher, my days were pretty tedious except for that brief payoff maybe every year or two where I knew I was looking at something or understood something that no one else in the world did (then I ran into the office next door to tell a colleague :D). How does unschooling teach a child perseverance to slog up the hill to ever see the awesome view?

 

 

Like I said earlier, I was really into the unschooling world for a while, and here is the reponse to that concern:

 

Nobody is making you cook dinner or change a diaper. So if you're doing it, you are doing it because you want to. Because you don't want your family to starve, or even eat fast-food, and because you don't want your child sitting in filth.

 

And people choose to do things at a job that are boring because they enjoy the job overall.

 

However, I personally feel that a ten year old doesn't have the same mindset in that area that a 30 year old parent does. That's the error, I think, in that reasoning.

I personally agree with you that unschooling does not encourage perseverence -- as least not in the way I would like my kids to have it.

[Aubrey]

I suspect that it's like phonics vs whole language: either one in *total* isolation would be a little...um...too much of one or the other.

 

And I also think it's like trying new foods: if you only ever gave a baby what they asked for, their diets would be limited. Even now, we have to remind 2yo that he likes olives. We force the first one (at every meal they're served!), & he happily eats the rest. :confused:

 

Otoh, a kid would have to NOT like learning to *only* learn w/ what is prescribed, to never pick up another book, ask a question, delve. Curiosity is innate, & I think we have to KILL it for a kid to be incapable of unschooling at all.

 

I think building castles is very good. I think Latin, math, & grammar are very good.

[WishboneDawn]

I know one unschooler mother who said she never taught her child to write or gave writing lessons in any way. Her daughter had to take some college test requirement to write an essay (not sure exactly what the test was). She said that she spent about five minutes the day before the test explaining to her daughter what a topic sentence is, etc, and her daughter did great on the test.

 

I'm sure she is telling the truth, but I don't understand how this is possible.

 

Along the same lines, my unschooler friends say that, when a child is ready and interested -- age twelve, fifteen, whatever -- they can master all of k-8 math in about six weeks.

 

 

I think what's key in both those lines of thinking is that it's just not the case that most unschoolers were unexposed to either writing or math up until that point. They're not approaching either skill with a blank slate; they've got years of experience to support them.

 

The girl going to college has certainly read before. She's gotten to know how writing is structured so it doesn't take much to inform a willing learner what the labels are that are attached to writing. It's like living around chickens all your life and then having someone come in and point out what they are and what they do in scientific term. Oh, okay, simple stuff.

 

K-8 math is much the same. I'm sometimes a little stunned by the time put into some concepts. We started my daughter on formal math in Grade 3 and the vast majority of it was simple putting what she already knew in fancy terms. I imagine we could have started even later but my lack of confidence started to get in the way.

 

Maybe your friend exaggerated a bit but she's not completely off the mark.

 

That said, I still prefer a more formal approach now. I was great when the kids were younger with unschooling (and when the baby comes I'll probably delay school for it again until it's 8 or 9) but as the kids got older I needed structure and confidence to really support they're learning and I was lacking both. What we do now works for us now.

 

Which brings me to my contribution to the OP's question. I think the parents and their attitudes are much more important then the kids. I think most kids would thrive with unschooling but I think a lot of parents don't have the confidence. And I think that my need for a daily routine and tighter structure really made unschooling unworkable as the kids got older. Also, if the parent has overwhelming issues like unmanaged depression, that could really hamper unschooling as well.

[Wee Pip]

OK, so lack of structure is definitely a big problem for those of us that need the structure. What say you about families like the Pearls that "unschool" but are very structured overall in their approach to raising children and managing a household? I don't particularly like the Pearls, but I have noticed this other trend toward unschooling: run the household, manage the farm, & no academics - all practical, hands-on learning. BTW, my dh says this is not real unschooling: unschooling is lack of structure.

Edited June 2, 2011 by Wee Pip
added link to article

[*Lulu*]

OK, so lack of structure is definitely a big problem for those of us that need the structure. What say you about families like the Pearls that "unschool" but are very structured overall in their approach to raising children and managing a household? I don't particularly like the Pearls, but I have noticed this other trend toward unschooling: run the household, manage the farm, & no academics - all practical, hands-on learning. BTW, my dh says this is not real unschooling: unschooling is lack of structure.

 

There is a difference between unschooling and unparenting.

 

I know several people who unschool to one degree or another.

 

I know a few families who unparent.

 

I think the combination of unparenting and unschooling is what some people call to mind when you say unschooling. The two philosophies may overlap, and I imagine that most who unparent would also unschool, but they really are two different things.

[mommymilkies]

Unschooling REALLY did not work for us. Not only did it not work, it was a disaster. My kids became rude and mean to us, their love of learning died like a fish out of water, and they got very far behind in basic things like math. I'm sure it works for some people, but unschooling, particularly radical unschooling, did NOT work for us. We are still recovering. I would say it's in my top 5 worst parenting mistakes ever. My oldest, in particular, is very gifted and a great independent learner. Of certain things. Sure, she probably could have passed GED math at age 18, but her self-confidence dropped and she still feels badly at how behind she is for her grade in math.

 

They learned a lot about certain subjects, but it hasn't been retained. I also got tired of the judgemental nature I found in many unschoolers. If I ask my kids to eat some fruit every day or buy a book that looks interesting and read it aloud to the kids (even optionally), all of the sudden I was Evil Mom who was not an unschooler, but was stifling my child's intellect.

 

My kids do not thrive at all on unstructured learning. They are so much happier now.

 

And Mandy is right-it is soooo hard as a parent to unschool. So hard. Maybe because I'm a crazy Virgo? But it just does not work for me.

[KrissiK]

One thing I've always been curious about in unschooling is.... I believe it is a virtue to learn how to do things you don't like to do without complaining, to learn to submit to being told what to do even if you don't like it and learning to be discliplined. How are these taught in the unschooling environment, because personally, I do not believe these are innate qualities in many/most people. Maybe I'm just making assumptions here and there's a continuum here and I'm going to the extreme and equating unschooling to undisciplined and perhaps that's not a fair assumption, but I've honestly always wondered how, in unschooling, is learning quantified or is that not important?

[happyWImom]

I think "unschooling" demands tremendously confident parents. I'm currently watching two radically unschooling families do life and what I see are bright, well-rounded, interested, curious children. They seem like happy, well-adjusted children with all sorts of wide-open space to develop into who they truly are -- I like that. These parents are confidently watching their children and enjoying the surprise of seeing how they unfold.

 

What I see as a potential "failure" of an unschooling situation (and they wouldn't see this as failure so it's a perspective issue and who am I to say that my perspective is somehow more or less flawed than theirs) is this: a solid foundation for some skills, like writing, spelling, grammar, mathematical concepts, languare study is built over time. If an unschooler decided at some point to attend university, I think they might be confronted with a pile of basic academic skills that they would need to sift through in a relatively short period of time.

 

Some unschooling children who are naturally bright, gifted learners can pick up what they missed during a summer of intense study, will write the SAT and blow the scores out of the water, be accepted into a fine university and will carry on, thankful to have missed out on the doldrums of everyday daily learning. Not all children are bright and gifted; some find academic achievement after years of working and applying basic academic skills, and need parents to carefully and succintly lay down a foundation of basic skills which can support the weight of higher learning.

 

Writing is important; there is no way around needing solid research and writing skills if a student wants to attend university. I'm not sure how unschooled children magically pick up the basics of writing without practicing a skill that can be tedious. Same with mathematics and language learning -- there are skills that need daily, repetitive interaction in order to attain mastery. (I can hear my unschooler mom-friends saying to me: if a child doesn't have a certain skill set and didn't find it on their own, than it wasn't meant to be.)

 

The unschooling parents I know are very confident that their children will dig out a path that brings a meaningful and joyful life. As a parent, I don't have the confidence to allow my children that same luxury . . . if the perfect plan doesn't fall into place, I want to make sure they my children have some "back-up" skills (of the academic sort) which will ensure university admittance.

 

Warmly, Tricia

 

:iagree: I wonder if we know the same family??? (jk)

 

The ones I know have 4 dc, unschool, and yes, they are very confident, bright, community involved, voracious learners. The parents don't place any expectations on them-educationally, and are happy with their education as long as they are reading and are interested in things. They don't feel that college is a must; it is their dc's choice.

 

I think that is all fine, if it works for them, but how do the children know at this age, what they are going to do in the future? Isn't it our job as parents to make decisions for them at young ages because they aren't mentally/developmentally equipped to do so? I don't mean college, but again, I do agree about the basics. Because when I asked this mom what they did for math, she said they don't use any curriculum. They might play games, cards, dice games, etc.... Which I think is completely fine when they are younger. Some kids need more time for certain things like math & reading when they are younger. But, if they are high school age, how could they "catch up" if they decide they do want to go on to college?

[WishboneDawn]

OK, so lack of structure is definitely a big problem for those of us that need the structure. What say you about families like the Pearls that "unschool" but are very structured overall in their approach to raising children and managing a household? I don't particularly like the Pearls, but I have noticed this other trend toward unschooling: run the household, manage the farm, & no academics - all practical, hands-on learning. BTW, my dh says this is not real unschooling: unschooling is lack of structure.

 

No way. A lack of structure is called chaos. :) Even on the radical unschooling lists we used to talk about how routines and daily rhythms were important. No hour by hours schedules but something more natural.

 

My problem was my husband worked shift work, I was fighting depression at one point and was ADD to boot. Routines and daily rhythms were hard to come by. :)

[woolybear]

I think unschooling can fail when either the child or parent has a personality that doesn't mesh with that approach. ie. one of them needing more structure.

[WishboneDawn]

One thing I've always been curious about in unschooling is.... I believe it is a virtue to learn how to do things you don't like to do without complaining, to learn to submit to being told what to do even if you don't like it and learning to be discliplined. How are these taught in the unschooling environment, because personally, I do not believe these are innate qualities in many/most people. Maybe I'm just making assumptions here and there's a continuum here and I'm going to the extreme and equating unschooling to undisciplined and perhaps that's not a fair assumption, but I've honestly always wondered how, in unschooling, is learning quantified or is that not important?

 

To the first, when we unschooled my kids did have to do things they thought weren't pleasant. I'm not sure how someone would avoid that. It wasn't about making everything sunshine and rainbows, it was just about giving my kids more room to explore, getting out of their way.

 

To the second, quantifying learning was never that big a thing for me. There was a quote in a Life Learning Magazine article about how measuring learning was like forever digging up a tulip bulb to see if it was growing. I liked that.

[veggiegal]

I think unschooling fails when parents do not have a way to measure or assess "whether or not unschooling is working" (for this particular child, parent, family, at this time, etc.) By this I do not mean "can the child read by age 8, or know their multiplication table by age 10" but simply is this form of homeschooling allowing the child to thrive. Several unschoolers I know--admittedly of the "radical unschooling" type--seem to me so invested in the idea of unschooling, the mythos behind it, that they fail to assess whether or not their child is doing well. Is the child engaged in the world? Are the withdrawn and destructive / depressed? Is a "natural curiosity" and "love of learning" still there as it was when they were a chatty 4 year old? Is the child asking for something else--more structure, classes, school? Is the family happy?

 

Of course, these questions are not unique to unschooling--there are many different ways to homeschool, many different possible resources--and I think most of us ask ourselves "Is this working?" at some point. Perhaps we just need a different math program; perhaps a different household routine; perhaps an entirely different approach to learning. But among unschoolers (radical unschoolers in particular), I have seen more folks (not all by any means!) unwilling to even ask themselves these sorts of questions, as they are so convinced that unschooling is simply "the best" way to educate / parent, period.

 

I will note that I know radical unschoolers whose children seem to be thriving (e.g., eldest of 5 in university and doing well in an engineering program), so for some it works well. But if nothing works well for all, how can some unschoolers be so confident in their educational choice as to not even ask themselves some tough questions?

[Madhouse mama]

I'm a little late to this thread but thought i would add because i have spent a good 2 years trying to get radical unschooling to work in my family and in the end i had to admit defeat and like a previous poster - it was a complete disaster and it is probably my biggest parenting regret to date. I have 3 boys ages 6, 3 and 4mths. We started delving into radical unschooling when the eldest was 3.5 and abandoned it in january this year when he was 5.5.

 

Up till we went into radical unschooling we had always had very limited tv and ds1 would love me to read to him all the time - we were reading chapter books and everything - once the tv restrictions were lifted that was it - his passion for books went and despite having restrictions again in place since january his enthusiasm is not returning. I'm hoping in time things will change.

 

I would say it didnt work because it stripped me of any power i had as a parent to do what i thought was best for my kids - if ds disagreed then he was right, if i imposed my 'will' i was not adhereing to the philosophy correctly, so it wouldnt work, and my kids would grow up to hate and resent me etc etc.

 

I followed all the advice i got from the radical unschooling experts but after 2 years my dc were still choosing mainly junk food to eat, lots of tv watching and playstation, not wanting to leave the house and when they werent on them they were fighting all the time - well i should say my oldest would just hurt my middle son at any given opportuinity. Lots of behavioural issues. And a totally burnt out mum who felt like the kids would be better off without her as i obviously couldnt get this 'wonderful' approach to work in our home.

 

We've changed a lot in a short time - we are all in better place now and i so wish i could turn back the clock.

 

I could really write an essay here on radical unschooling - there are so many contradictions within it too i found.

 

But basically its not right for everyone and its not just cos you're not doing it right or cos you just dont 'get it' or cos you just need to wait a bit longer ( i think 2 years was ample time to see if something was working - way too long!!!) - its just cos for some (a lot?) of people it just aint gonna work. For my personality type it was a disaster and obviously wasnt great for my kids either.

[Dmmetler]

After this summer, when DD has been happily going to gymnastics every morning, then coming home and happily doing a lot of great things on her own, I was really wondering why I was bothering to do a formal school curriculum-I mean, she managed to finish memorizing her multiplication facts using her "finger method", was writing a "novel" in a little notebook, and had been reading a lot, all with the only formal lessons being gymnastics camp and piano.

 

Then, we took a break after everyone else went to school and camp was over before starting school-and she was miserable and a pain in the tail to everyone else. Lots of complaints, lots of moping, lots of "Why can't I go to school and see my friends like everyone else"....which made me feel like a failure as a parent. Field trips, trips to the library...all the nice "unschooly-type" stuff I'd envisioned just led to a mopy, frustrated kid who felt that she was missing something and wasn't able to get into it. I mean, most of my homeschool group is unschoolers or at least more relaxed than I am. And their kids seem happy, so why was mine miserable?

 

Well, we had our first formal homeschooling day of the new school year today-and I've got the kid back I had all summer. She happily settled in, did her work, enjoyed learning-and has been engaged in productive, independent work on her own, all afternoon.

 

What it comes down to is this-my DD NEEDS some structured time each day working on something challenging. It doesn't matter whether it's a kick-over or whether it's logic puzzles-but she NEEDS that time. And once she's had it, she's fine. But deprive her of it, and she can't handle it. And she's apparently not yet capable of setting those kind of challenges for herself.

 

And, in fact, that's why I sent her to preschool at age 3-because she was demanding something I couldn't give her. In 20/20 hindsight, I should have just started homeschooling then-but she NEEDED something more structured.

Edited August 15, 2011 by dmmetler