s/o Toddlers in Church thread: What's wrong with children's church?

[Lilymax]

I mean...they are children....right? :001_smile:

 

I've never been to a church that didn't have programs for kids. Personally, I wouldn't want to go to one that didn't. So I don't understand why some see it as bad for a kid to sing songs and watch puppets instead of sitting in an adult's service that they aren't developed enough to get a lot out of?

 

I mean, we don't plop a new reader in front of a set of encyclopedias and demand they read the whole thing. We give them books that interest them, that fit their level of understanding.

 

We were doing science today and it reminded my son of an experiment his children's church pastor did a few weeks ago that explained an attribute of God. I find that the lessons my teen son's youth leader teaches on Sunday mornings really stick with him as well.

 

If you're against this during church time, do you also shun vacation bible school programs in the summer? Do you opt-out of using child-friendly biblical lessons in your homeschooling?

 

I don't mean to be snarky...I just don't understand the perspective that children's church is something to be avoided. It's been nothing but good for my kids. (And good for me, because I can actually get something out of a service instead of being distracted by a room full of active kids.) I do agree that kids need to learn how to sit still for an hour at a time, but there are ways to do this that don't involve making them attend regular church services weekly from birth, IMO.

[Old Dominion Heather]

See, I guess I come from the pov that church (i.e. corporate worship) is actually corporate worship. It, for me, is not about whether I get anything out of it. It is about worshiping God, not age-appropriate entertainment.

 

(This sounds snarky, and I am not trying to be... please read it in a "this is what *I* believe" type of way, not a "holier than thou" kind of way.)

 

FWIW, we attend a fairly "high Presbyterian" church with lots of participation in the service. We do have children's church for ages 4-6. Kids can stay in the nursery until they are four if the parents choose. The children's church focuses on teaching hymns, the Apostle's and Nicene Creeds, and some catechism. Once they are in first grade, they can take the communion class at church and the session gives them permission to take communion. After that, there is no reason why they can't be in church.

 

Being able to fully participate in the beauty and the mystery of the service is seen as a milestone, a wonderful and desirable thing. My little guy was disappointed that he wasn't old enough for the communion class this past fall.

 

ETA: The children's church that our church has for 4-6yos takes place after the call to worship, the corporate confession, and the children's sermon where all the kids go up to the front and sit on the floor with the pastor. He then gives a brief synopsis for the main idea of the adult sermon and then they are off to children's church for the remainder of the service, usually about 230-35 minutes. So they miss the sermon, the acclamation, the offering, and the close. But they are with us for the first part of the church service. This way our pastors know each kid by name and they know that they are considered vital members of the church. They have a sermon, prepared by the pastor FOR THEM.

Edited March 28, 2011 by Old Dominion Heather

[justamouse]

See, I guess I come from the pov that church (i.e. corporate worship) is actually corporate worship. It, for me, is not about whether I get anything out of it. It is about worshiping God, not age-appropriate entertainment.

 

(This sounds snarky, and I am not trying to be... please read it in a "this is what *I* believe" type of way, not a "holier than thou" kind of way.)

 

FWIW, we attend a fairly "high Presbyterian" church with lots of participation in the service. We do have children's church for ages 4-6. Kids can stay in the nursery until they are four if the parents choose. The children's church focuses on teaching hymns, the Apostle's and Nicene Creeds, and some catechism. Once they are in first grade, they can take the communion class at church and the session gives them permission to take communion. After that, there is no reason why they can't be in church.

 

Being able to fully participate in the beauty and the mystery of the service is seen as a milestone, a wonderful and desirable thing. My little guy was disappointed that he wasn't old enough for the communion class this past fall.

 

What she said.

[Xuzi]

My church (LDS) has it both ways. We meet as families for the first hour, where we take Sacrament (communion), and listen to speakers (picked from the congregation) give talks on various Gospel topics, then we divide up for Sunday School by age group. Toddlers go to nursery, kids go to Primary, teens go to youth classes. After that there's also gender specific classes for teens and adults (so ya, 3 hours of church, but you're doing 3 different things, and it's actually very engaging).

 

I love worshipping as a family. I love holding my children on my lap as we watch the Sacrament being blessed and passed (we don't go up for it, it's brought to us on trays and passed down the pews), and whispering into their ears what it represents, how thankful I am for my Savior, and how much He loves us all. I don't expect my kids to sit still, but I do expect them to be quiet, and for the most part they do. They don't hate it. It's part of our Sunday routine, and they expect it. :) (They still bolt right out of the chapel when it's time for Primary though. :lol: )

 

In Primary they get the Gospel message presented to them in a way that's easier for them to grasp, and sometimes one of them will sudden perk up when they hear someone in Sacrament meeting (the first meeting) say something they recognize from a lesson they had in Primary (or at home). It makes them feel grown up. :)

 

ETA: and I don't worry so much about "getting" much out of Sacrament meeting while my children are young. I'm there to partake of the Sacrament and worship My Father and His Son, and listen to the speakers bare witness to the truth of the gospel. I have Sunday School to "get" things from.

Edited March 28, 2011 by Xuzi

[elinnea]

Well....I think some churches see their congregation as a whole community not divided on age groups. I don't know if I am describing that correctly. I guess a good example would be that as homeschoolers many of us have probably observed that our kids are more accomodating towards kids of all ages whereas some ps kids will only play with kids in their age group/ grade.

 

Also I personally am not too keen on kid's programs at church because a lot of them seem like pure fluff and/ or they are dumbed down to what adults think kids like or should know. My older kids were offended by cutesy songs and puppet shows at a pretty young age.

[Joanne]

the answers you get will be something along the lines of "we worship together as a family", "we don't believe in reductionistic teaching", "I don't believe in children's bible curriculum", etc.

 

I used to wholehearted believe that.

 

 

 

See, I guess I come from the pov that church (i.e. corporate worship) is actually corporate worship. It, for me, is not about whether I get anything out of it. It is about worshiping God, not age-appropriate entertainment.

 

(This sounds snarky, and I am not trying to be... please read it in a "this is what *I* believe" type of way, not a "holier than thou" kind of way.)

 

FWIW, we attend a fairly "high Presbyterian" church with lots of participation in the service. We do have children's church for ages 4-6. Kids can stay in the nursery until they are four if the parents choose. The children's church focuses on teaching hymns, the Apostle's and Nicene Creeds, and some catechism. Once they are in first grade, they can take the communion class at church and the session gives them permission to take communion. After that, there is no reason why they can't be in church.

 

Being able to fully participate in the beauty and the mystery of the service is seen as a milestone, a wonderful and desirable thing. My little guy was disappointed that he wasn't old enough for the communion class this past fall.

 

My kids attended a formal Presbyterian Church (and, then, after the divorce, 2 of them) for years. We had age-differentiated classes before church and my children sat with me during church (1.25 hours) for years. We now have praise time "together" and the kids break out to the Youth Center for their "own" worship.

 

I am fine with both choices. I'm not "fine" with absolutism on either side.

[mrsrevmeg]

Coming from a Children's Church worker: Most of the time the children are not being taught about God. They are not doing anything to actually prepare them for "big church". They are goofing off, playing and having snacks. I got so frustrated trying to find materials that actually taught anything rather than just saying "God made you. God loves you," that I started just going through the Bible without materials it was a pain trying to get crafts, etc set up so that we would have activities to go along with our stories, but it was better than nothing. I do think telling kids God made them and He loves them is important, but they are capable of knowing more about Him.

[3lilreds in NC]

Our old church had children's church. I didn't mind it, but I will say that some of our homeschooling friends sent their children to Awana for the Bible stuff, because our children's church was very evangelistic and not big on actual Bible education. Weird, I know, but there you have it. I did not send mine to Awana, because we memorize Bible verses and stuff at home and I didn't feel like they needed anything more there, and also because our schedule was already too full.

 

I think there are some who feel that chidren's church doesn't teach kids how to sit still and behave in "real church." I will say that while my church experience wasn't miserable growing up, I would have much preferred something more on my level because I usually had no idea what the pastor was talking about.

 

My girls went to children's church before we moved, like I said, but Schmooey has always been in church with us, and he does very well most of the time. We have the occasional incident, but we always bring little cars or something for him to do. Last Sunday, he was teaching me to "play guitar" by holding hymnals sideways (just strumming, no sound effects). :lol: I do think they do better with contemporary music than hymns, because they really look forward to singing the songs.

[Old Dominion Heather]

the answers you get will be something along the lines of "we worship together as a family", "we don't believe in reductionistic teaching", "I don't believe in children's bible curriculum", etc.

 

Joanne, I really don't think it is fair to prejudge ALL the answers the OP will get as either or answers. FWIW, I think it is a leap.

 

OP, My kids go to age appropriate Sunday School, they go to VBS, they go to fellowship night on Wednesdays and just hang out with their peers and play. But none of those things is worship, you know?

 

My kids do go to children's church until they don't want to anymore (or they age out at 6) So far, both of the older two have chosen to hang with us and do cartoon notes with mom and dad. Dh and I listen to the sermon and make our notes in the form of cartoon drawings, which the kids add to as they listen, so we are constantly passing the pencil around. Mine are not so hot, but dh is an artist, so his are so good, he gets adults hanging over the pew watching him draw out sermon notes.

 

ETA: Our sermon is never more than 20 minutes... I think that helps. I grew up Baptist in the South where the sermon was THE MAIN EVENT. I would be a huge fan of children's church if I still went to a church with a service that long. I can't imagine making kids sit that long. Actually, I can't imagine making MYSELF sit THAT long. I'd have to go teach children's church!

 

ETA: The children's church that our church has for 4-6yos takes place after the call to worship, the corporate confession, and the children's sermon where all the kids go up to the front and sit on the floor with the pastor. He then gives a brief synopsis for the main idea of the adult sermon and then they are off to children's church for the remainder of the service, usually about 230-35 minutes. So they miss the sermon, the acclamation, the offering, and the close. But they are with us for the first part of the church service. This way our pastors know each kid by name and they know that they are considered vital members of the church. They have a sermon, prepared by the pastor FOR THEM.

__________________

Edited March 28, 2011 by Old Dominion Heather

[AndyJoy]

I'm not anti-children's church, but I haven't been impressed with the way it's been implemented at several churches I've attended.

 

When I was 12-18, I worked in our children's church several weeks a month. It was supposed to be for kids age 4 through first grade. Instead, there were kids as old as 11 attending. It was lead by our pastor's wife, who is a very fun person, but more of an indulgent grandma than a teacher. Basically, the kids sang some silly songs (most of which were goofy nonsense and not based on the Bible), listened to a 5 minute story, ate a sugary snack, then watched a video or played outside until church was over. I thought it was too much like babysitting and not enough like church/worship.

 

Once a month I was in charge of the whole thing, rather than just a helper. On these weeks I cut out the video and served water, oranges, and graham crackers instead of Koolaid and Oreos. I chose songs that were fun but that tied into the lesson rather than just being goofy nonsense songs. After the 10 minute lesson, we played some sort of group game that reinforced the lesson's topic. By then, there would be about 5 minutes left and we'd go outside to the playground until parents arrived. Now, my mom teaches children's church at this church and makes sure it is only for the 4-6 year olds. She does it the same way I did as a teen--basically like a 2nd Sunday School class. This, I am ok with.

 

When my mom was in college, her church's children's church was completely different. It was a scaled-down version of the adult service. It consisted of age-appropriate spiritual music, Bible reading, prayer, a short sermon, and even an offering! It was for kids age 5-12. The older kids collected the offering and helped lead the singing. The transition to "adult" church was much easier, as the kids had been used to the elements of the service. The Regular Baptist church we attended when I was 8-10 was similar, with the message being a missionary story 90% of the time. This, I am ok with.

 

Basically, if there is a thoughtful, coherent plan and purpose and actual biblical teaching, I think children's church can be a good thing. If it's just about keeping the kids busy, I think it is a waste of time and gives them a false idea that church is about entertainment instead of worship.

Edited March 28, 2011 by AndyJoy

[happyhomemaker25]

For my family it's all about worshiping as a family. One day DH and I noticed that whole families were being addressed in the scriptures. This was before I'd even heard of the "family movement". We coupled those instances with the verse that says God's Word will not return void and decided that our children would be coming into church with us. It was a new thing and we found ourselves explaining why we were doing it this way to everyone at our church. Soon we began turning the question around on people and asking them where in scripture is CC presented. Not because we believe everyone has to do what we do, but it was getting a little judgmental toward us.

We have great conversations throughout the week about the sermon. We have family worship together every morning and often times can find a way to tie our daily Bible reading into something the Pastor has said. Even my 5yo can talk to you about parts of the sermon.

We don't have SS at our church right now, though the one we are considering visiting in the coming months does. It is also a more "family style" church. DH and I talked about what we wanted from a SS and basically we want a well maintained class that is filled with real age appropriate Bible learning. If we don't see that then we will just skip SS for now.

I don't have a problem with age appropriate Bible class, but I do want it to be BIBLE class and not an hour of busy work and fluff.

This is all just my opinion and the desires for our family that God has laid on our hearts. I would NEVER judge someone who did not feel this was right for their family.

[Joanne]

Joanne, I really don't think it is fair to prejudge ALL the answers the OP will get as either or answers. FWIW, I think it is a leap.

 

!

 

I think you are reading a tone into my answer that isn't there. :) There is no judgment for me on this one, except on the dogmatic extremes.

 

I was simply offering the truth in terms of the responses *will* come along those lines for the question asked. "We worship together as a family" is the core of the answer for most people who don't "do" children's church".

 

I didn't "do" children's church for years. ;)

[SEP]

recently we visited a church (w/inlaws) and their children's church (under 12) was playing the Wii and going into the bouncy house after a very short devotion.

 

um, i have a problem with that.

 

church is not meant to be worldly or a source of 'fun and entertainment'. i'm not saying it has to be dull. i'm just saying that it is supposed to be 'different', set apart, it's church. it's worship. it's learning about God.

[justamouse]

I guess over time too, I've really come to see children as whole persons, as CM would say. They are also a part of the body of believers and should be able to celebrate in communion (as they reach age).

 

I was also a children's church teacher for years and I think it can be dumbed down, when, in all actuality, the gospel is so simple sometimes it's easier for them to get it than for me.

[TX Bluebonnet]

Because I don't trust anyone with my children. No, not even people at church.

[KrissiK]

Our church has Children's Church and I write the curriculum for it. The kids are there during the sermon portion of the worship service. Children's church consists of the following elements: singing, a Bible lesson, simple craft/coloring page pertaining to the Bible lesson. I could go either way regarding having kids in CC or not. But, this is what our church does. We used to have a very complex curriculum, which made it very difficult to get volunteers because you had to prepare a couple hours during the week. This is why I volunteered to write the curriculum, which is basically open and go. Very user friendly.

[Sherry in OH]

We don't have a children's church. We have Sunday School and church. Some children (and adults) attend only Sunday School, some attend only church, and others attend both.

[Melinda in VT]

I'm not opposed to children's church, but I am opposed to children's church every Sunday.

 

I like for children to sit in on the whole worship service at least once a month. Part of the reason I bring my kids to church is that I want them to be comfortable and familiar with the rhythm of corporate worship, and that won't happen if they never sit through a complete service.

 

I have also found that often the content of children's church is weak, and where that is the case I would prefer my kids stay with me so they have the opportunity to hear scripture.

[ange]

I am fine with both choices. I'm not "fine" with absolutism on either side.

 

:iagree: I have been in churches that go both ways. I have a child that has been in church with us since he was quite young because he wanted to be. I have other children that did wonderful in the children's church. I have a child with special needs that never seemed to do well anywhere, but now is enjoying the children's classes. Currently I have 3 children that attend AWANA and it has added to their excitement about learning God's word. I also have 3 children that attend Sunday School and Children's Church, and I will add they are not fluff but meaningful times of learning about God, His word, and worshipping Him. Still, my oldest has always preferred to be where the adults are! ;) I have learned that there is no right or wrong in this issue, it is a matter of preference. The only thing I can say is "absolute" here is that parents are called to teach their children about God, and it sounds like everyone that has posted so far is doing just that...so how the children participate in the Sabbath services should be open to many options. One thing I will add, I did not grow up in a Christian home...so if it had not been for those children's Sunday school classes and children's church services I was invited to and occasionally able to attend, and the vacation Bible school I once attended when I was 3 (which I still vividly remember as it was the first time I heard about a man named Jesus. I got to go because it was offered in the backyard of a neighbor's house.) ....if not for these "programs" and the loving people that served in them, I would not have had any hope to hold onto growing up in such a dark and oppressive home. (Sorry, did not mean for that to sound "snarky" either, just felt led to share that! Please take it right way as a personal testimony!)

[QueenCat]

 

ETA: The children's church that our church has for 4-6yos takes place after the call to worship, the corporate confession, and the children's sermon where all the kids go up to the front and sit on the floor with the pastor. He then gives a brief synopsis for the main idea of the adult sermon and then they are off to children's church for the remainder of the service, usually about 230-35 minutes. So they miss the sermon, the acclamation, the offering, and the close. But they are with us for the first part of the church service. This way our pastors know each kid by name and they know that they are considered vital members of the church. They have a sermon, prepared by the pastor FOR THEM.

__________________

 

Our Childrens Church is similar. The children are there for the opening hymn, call to worship, prayer requests, corporate confession, offering, another hymn, and the children's sermon. They go to Childrens Church (but don't have to, they are certainly free to stay with their parents) for the duration of the service (sermon, altar call/closing hymn, benediction). While at Childrens Church, they sing songs, and have a short bible lesson. This is NOT in place of Sunday School, which is held in between our two services.

[QueenCat]

I'm not opposed to children's church, but I am opposed to children's church every Sunday.

 

 

:iagree:Our church does not have childrens church on the first Sunday of the month since that is Communion Sunday, always.

[Wyndie]

I haven't read all the replies so I may be repeating someone here.

 

Not all children's churches are created equal. We are military and move a lot so we've seen the gamut of children's programs. Some are nothing more than snack and movie time. Many times not even a movie about God, just whatever the teenage babysitter wanted to watch. Other times it's an age appropriate lesson. Other times it's just glorified babysitting where the kids run amok with slight supervision.

 

We have allowed our children to be in childrens church in SOME churches but not all; and when my son turned 10 we made him start sitting in on our services. He needed to hear what was being preached and he was getting to the age where the childrens services were a little young for him. (They only have one kids class at this church and it is geared more toward the younger crowd)

 

My middle child goes to childrens church if she wants too or stays with us if she wants too. Unless she is being made to stay with us b/c of a stinky attitude, she gets to choose. We don't make her go if she's just having a snuggly day and wants to be with us.

 

My youngest stays with us b/c she is allergic to the building the children go in. I would love for her to participate but she cannot and so she stays with us. She is the only child her age who stays when the others go but the pastor knows why she stays and wouldn't care if she didn't have a good reason anyway.

[Cinder]

Our current church is the only one we've been in that has Children's Church. We were at one church that had Childcare for kids up to age 6--it was billed as such since there was a separate Sunday School program. Anyway, at our current church the families are all together for the initial music part then the children (grades K-5) are dismissed. 2 of my 3 were young enough for CC at first; ds2 said it was boring and refused to go back. Dd enjoyed it at first but when they switched teachers (they do one month on, one off) she also refused to go back. CC there is just another kind of Sunday School, not a separate worship service geared toward youngers.

[shinyhappypeople]

I love the children's program at the church we're going to. They have fun and do actually learn something every week. However, even if it was pure fluff, I'd probably choose to put them in children's church rather than forcing them to sit in the adult service.

 

I went to church while growing up and early on (until I was 5/6?) there was no children's church. I had to sit in "big church" and it was t..o..r..t..u..r..e..

 

::shudder::

 

I was not worshiping with my parents. I didn't really understand what the songs were about on any meaningful level (though I enjoyed being able to stand up and make noise) and the sermon went completely over my head.

 

I drew on the backs of offering envelopes, swung my feet (fast... then slow... fast... then slow...) flipped through the hymnal, stared at the ceiling and yawned.

 

After sitting still for awhile my body physically ached (not making it up - it really hurt). I shifted in my seat and tried to make small movements to help myself feel better.

 

I pretended I had to go to the bathroom or get a drink of water *and couldn't wait* ("Please mom! Honest! I gotta go!!!") at least once midway through the sermon, walked sloooooowly to the restroom and slooooowly back to the sanctuary (what a misnomer). My favorite part was when it was OVER.

 

I dreaded church. I played sick almost every Sunday to try and get out of going (never worked :tongue_smilie:).

 

So, honestly, I think forcing young children to sit through an adult service is, at best, a waste of time.

Edited March 29, 2011 by shinyhappypeople

[MamaSheep]

My church (LDS) has it both ways. We meet as families for the first hour, where we take Sacrament (communion), and listen to speakers (picked from the congregation) give talks on various Gospel topics, then we divide up for Sunday School by age group. Toddlers go to nursery, kids go to Primary, teens go to youth classes. After that there's also gender specific classes for teens and adults (so ya, 3 hours of church, but you're doing 3 different things, and it's actually very engaging).

 

I love worshipping as a family. I love holding my children on my lap as we watch the Sacrament being blessed and passed (we don't go up for it, it's brought to us on trays and passed down the pews), and whispering into their ears what it represents, how thankful I am for my Savior, and how much He loves us all. I don't expect my kids to sit still, but I do expect them to be quiet, and for the most part they do. They don't hate it. It's part of our Sunday routine, and they expect it. :) (They still bolt right out of the chapel when it's time for Primary though. :lol: )

 

In Primary they get the Gospel message presented to them in a way that's easier for them to grasp, and sometimes one of them will sudden perk up when they hear someone in Sacrament meeting (the first meeting) say something they recognize from a lesson they had in Primary (or at home). It makes them feel grown up. :)

 

ETA: and I don't worry so much about "getting" much out of Sacrament meeting while my children are young. I'm there to partake of the Sacrament and worship My Father and His Son, and listen to the speakers bare witness to the truth of the gospel. I have Sunday School to "get" things from.

:iagree: I like this arrangement too.

[Momofeat]

My kids do go to children's church until they don't want to anymore (or they age out at 6) So far, both of the older two have chosen to hang with us and do cartoon notes with mom and dad. Dh and I listen to the sermon and make our notes in the form of cartoon drawings, which the kids add to as they listen, so we are constantly passing the pencil around. Mine are not so hot, but dh is an artist, so his are so good, he gets adults hanging over the pew watching him draw out sermon notes.

QUOTE]

 

 

This is ridiculously awesome!!! :D

[K&Rs Mom]

 

I was not worshiping with my parents. I didn't understand really understand what the songs were about on any meaningful level (though I enjoyed being able to stand up and make noise) and the sermon went completely over my head.

 

I drew on the backs of offering envelopes, swung my feet (fast... then slow... fast... then slow...) flipped through the hymnal, stared at the ceiling and yawned.

 

After sitting still for awhile my body physically ached (not making it up - it really hurt). I shifted in my seat and tried to make small movements to help myself feel better.

 

I pretended I had to go to the bathroom or get a drink of water *and couldn't wait* ("Please mom! Honest! I gotta go!!!") at least once midway through the sermon, walked sloooooowly to the restroom and slooooowly back to the sanctuary (what a misnomer). My favorite part was when it was OVER.

 

I dreaded church. I played sick almost every Sunday to try and get out of going (never worked :tongue_smilie:).

 

So, honestly, I think forcing young children to sit through an adult service is, at best, a waste of time.

 

I think this is pretty common, but I also think it doesn't have to be that way. We work hard to make sure our dc understand what's going on and participate. We explain why we do all these things (Catholic, so there is a lot going on in that hour - sit/stand/kneel/listen/read/sing/etc). They follow along with the readings as soon as they are able to read fluently, usually like to sing even before that, and ask intelligent questions later about the homily (sermon), so I know they're listening. We teach them the prayers from the time they're about 2, so they can participate in those parts. Most importantly, from the time they're tiny, they know that Jesus is *right there* and that we go to visit Him - I think they would hate being sent to some other room/building and missing out on that.

[Aubrey]

I mean...they are children....right? :001_smile:

 

I've never been to a church that didn't have programs for kids. Personally, I wouldn't want to go to one that didn't. So I don't understand why some see it as bad for a kid to sing songs and watch puppets instead of sitting in an adult's service that they aren't developed enough to get a lot out of?

 

Up to here, I agree. I think Children's Church can be a wonderful thing.

 

I mean, we don't plop a new reader in front of a set of encyclopedias and demand they read the whole thing. We give them books that interest them, that fit their level of understanding.

 

Still with ya!

 

We were doing science today and it reminded my son of an experiment his children's church pastor did a few weeks ago that explained an attribute of God. I find that the lessons my teen son's youth leader teaches on Sunday mornings really stick with him as well.

 

By & large, this is where our experience begins to diverge. My kids were bored w/ their lessons because they were too shallow. There have been WONDERFUL exceptions, but sadly, not the rule.

 

If you're against this during church time, do you also shun vacation bible school programs in the summer? Do you opt-out of using child-friendly biblical lessons in your homeschooling?

 

I'm obviously not against Children's Church, but yeah, after one year of VBS, I said Never. Again. It was nothing but tripe. Literally, sugar-coated tripe. The kids were *sick* from the amt of candy they got, & for them--there was absolutely nothing spiritual about it.

 

I don't do Bible lessons for hs. I used to, but I found that it was...boring. The pre-made lessons just can't know my kids, kwim? So we *talk* about God, Biblical issues, etc when they come up. Often during history.

 

Next year, I'm planning to do more, but...not from a kid-lesson-plan. We'll be back to the ancients, & we're going to read through the Chronological Bible together.

 

I don't mean to be snarky...I just don't understand the perspective that children's church is something to be avoided. It's been nothing but good for my kids. (And good for me, because I can actually get something out of a service instead of being distracted by a room full of active kids.) I do agree that kids need to learn how to sit still for an hour at a time, but there are ways to do this that don't involve making them attend regular church services weekly from birth, IMO.

 

My littles are 2 & 3yo. We took them to the main service w/ us on Sun to a church we visited, & it was exhausting but fine. If we end up attending that particular church...or kind of church...I like the idea of having them w/ us. (Sort-of.)

 

Previously? Whoa. 1yo & baby. 1yo & 2yo. :svengo: So I guess I go both ways.

 

The church we visited was not Protestant, & to me, that made a difference. When we've taken the kids w/ us to Protestant services, they have gotten an earful about abortion, the *details* of what would happen *biologically* to a person in the fiery furnace of Daniel, etc. SO not kid-friendly.

 

Otoh, we home-churched for a bit, & a truly kid-friendly service nearly kills ME w/ boredom.

 

I think there's a wide range of what works at what church for what parents. And I think that's great! :001_smile:

[Dmmetler]

Well, my church doesn't have Children's church-everyone who isn't little enough to go to nursery goes to the service, and Sunday School is age grouped. As soon as DD was old enough to talk, she preferred being with us to being in the nursery-I think being around babies with their sounds and smells really bothered her sensory issues, so by age 2-3, she was sitting through church. It wasn't easy for her (our services are usually about 90 minutes), but she has grown up into it, and at 6, does pretty well.

 

VBS...I consider it a waste of time. It's bubblegum music, crafts, and cutesy themes that really don't relate to anything spiritual. I don't understand how pirates are supposed to teach kids about Jesus. DD hated it-too many kids and too much noise to keep from triggering her sensory issues, adults who wouldn't answer her questions, and just plain too much chaos. I let her stop going 2 days in last year because she was so miserable. There are quite a few people in our area who send the kids on the VBS tour each summer, using these instead of sending their kids to summer camp or finding something to do at home to keep the kids busy, and churches compete to have the most fun program, with moon bounces, lots of candy, lots of giveaways, free pizza, and tons of fun-type stuff, but the message gets lost.

[*Lulu*]

DH and I have worked for many churches over the years in music and technology ministries, and have seen Children's Church and Sunday School handled a variety of ways.

 

Where we currently attend they do it differently from all other places we have attended. There is no Children's Church per se, instead the children start out in worship with the rest of the congregation. After most of the corporate worship has been completed the children go down front for a special time with one of the pastors. From this time they are dismissed to their classes. On special days, (Palm Sunday, Easter, ect.), or if there is something special going on they usually sit together near the front for the rest of the service. (Although no one would bat an eye if they chose to return to sit with their family.)

 

After they finish conformation classes they no longer participate with the children's ministries, but move into the youth group and participate in the services as an adult would.

[Lovedtodeath]

For my family it's all about worshiping as a family. One day DH and I noticed that whole families were being addressed in the scriptures. This was before I'd even heard of the "family movement". We coupled those instances with the verse that says God's Word will not return void and decided that our children would be coming into church with us. It was a new thing and we found ourselves explaining why we were doing it this way to everyone at our church. Soon we began turning the question around on people and asking them where in scripture is CC presented.

This is pretty much why Witnesses do not have a separate program for children. At least, that is what the official answer is to that question. In the scriptures, the children were a part of things. They were gathered before God with the whole nation when the Mosaic Law was read, etc.

 

I have also been told that it is the parent's job to teach their children about God and religion, not someone else in a program for that purpose, but this was from individuals, not the "official" answer.

 

It has been noted that a mother misses out on a lot when she has young children to care for. The suggestion is that the father take a more active roll and that others in the congregation offer to help.

[Haiku]

We're not Christian and don't attend church but we do attend a religious center for our faith. We have a children's program that is wonderful. The kids learn a ton. Some attendees keep their kids with them during our teachings, and honestly, the kids look (and act) bored stiff.

 

The children's program at our religious center prepares children to attend and understand our teachings in the same way a "new members" class might help an adult. Just being thrown into something that is designed for people with an assumed level of knowledge and understanding is not, imo, the best way for kids to learn about their religion.

 

Tara

[Forget-Me-Not]

My church (LDS) has it both ways. We meet as families for the first hour, where we take Sacrament (communion), and listen to speakers (picked from the congregation) give talks on various Gospel topics, then we divide up for Sunday School by age group. Toddlers go to nursery, kids go to Primary, teens go to youth classes. After that there's also gender specific classes for teens and adults (so ya, 3 hours of church, but you're doing 3 different things, and it's actually very engaging).

 

I love worshipping as a family. I love holding my children on my lap as we watch the Sacrament being blessed and passed (we don't go up for it, it's brought to us on trays and passed down the pews), and whispering into their ears what it represents, how thankful I am for my Savior, and how much He loves us all. I don't expect my kids to sit still, but I do expect them to be quiet, and for the most part they do. They don't hate it. It's part of our Sunday routine, and they expect it. :) (They still bolt right out of the chapel when it's time for Primary though. :lol: )

 

In Primary they get the Gospel message presented to them in a way that's easier for them to grasp, and sometimes one of them will sudden perk up when they hear someone in Sacrament meeting (the first meeting) say something they recognize from a lesson they had in Primary (or at home). It makes them feel grown up. :)

 

ETA: and I don't worry so much about "getting" much out of Sacrament meeting while my children are young. I'm there to partake of the Sacrament and worship My Father and His Son, and listen to the speakers bare witness to the truth of the gospel. I have Sunday School to "get" things from.

 

Yep, another LDS here :D I love that we worship as a family and that there are different things geared to different ages.

[Retired]

I use to teach children's church. I personally saw myself as a teacher/missionary to these kids. I developed my own lessons. We did sing songs. It was not dumbed down. I had mostly kids that parents did not attend services.

 

The parents would drop them off for "free child care" I had one little girl that would just come and sleep. She broke my heart. I just knew the few hours at church were the only peaceful time she had in her life.

 

I personally don't have a problem with children's church. I wish that one was available while I was a kid.

 

I spent the first years of my church life being taken out during the service and getting a belt to my legs. My parents expected way more from me for my age.

 

I would guess that there are still some parents that do not have the patients to handle a wiggly kid during services.

 

I even now as a mother of teens will always offer to take a toddler during a Church service.. The church I attend now doesn't nursery or children's church. They don't want one. They don't mind kids running around and stuff but I can see the young mom/dad start getting embarrassed and frustrated.

[Xuzi]

I have also been told that it is the parent's job to teach their children about God and religion, not someone else in a program for that purpose, but this was from individuals, not the "official" answer.

It doesn't have to be an either/or thing. My children attend Primary at church as another source of spiritual learning. Similar to how some of our children attend co-op classes, even though we're homeschooling. Different teachers can offer different insights, then can talk things over with their peers, build life-long friendships with other adults and children in the more intimate classroom settings (typically no more than 6-8 kids per adult, max. usually less), and they get to hear the message from someone other than mom and dad, which we all know is sometimes the only way a message will get through to kids. :tongue_smilie:

[LizzyBee]

I think children's church is great for younger kids. I grew up in a church that didn't have a nursery or children's church with the result that I learned to tune out the sermon. But hey, at least I knew how to sit quietly. :D It took me several years as an adult to learn how to listen to a whole sermon.

[Lovedtodeath]

It doesn't have to be an either/or thing.

I actually wish that we did have a separate program for the kids. :blushing:

 

and they get to hear the message from someone other than mom and dad, which we all know is sometimes the only way a message will get through to kids. :tongue_smilie:

I totally agree with that. :D When there is something I want DD to hear I have to get her to pay attention to what is going on... and then it is like it is still coming from me because of that, kwim?

[Sputterduck]

If there is one *one* thing that I do with my child all week, it ought to be worship God when we're among our Christian brothers and sisters. That is by far the most important family thing we can do.

 

My 6 year old loves church and cries when we don't go because he "wants to go learn about God". You are selling children short if you think they can't understand sermons. If they are exposed to them, they understand them. (just like learning adult talk vs baby talk)

[Lilymax]

Thank you for sharing your experiences with me...your differing perspectives have answered the questions I had. :001_smile:

 

And they've made me even more thankful for attending a great church with truly insightful, spiritual, educational kids' ministries.

 

I love that there are so many different denominations and beliefs that allow us to all find the house of worship where our family fits best.

[Sputterduck]

I love the children's program at the church we're going to. They have fun and do actually learn something every week. However, even if it was pure fluff, I'd probably choose to put them in children's church rather than forcing them to sit in the adult service.

 

I went to church while growing up and early on (until I was 5/6?) there was no children's church. I had to sit in "big church" and it was t..o..r..t..u..r..e..

 

::shudder::

 

I was not worshiping with my parents. I didn't really understand what the songs were about on any meaningful level (though I enjoyed being able to stand up and make noise) and the sermon went completely over my head.

 

I drew on the backs of offering envelopes, swung my feet (fast... then slow... fast... then slow...) flipped through the hymnal, stared at the ceiling and yawned.

 

After sitting still for awhile my body physically ached (not making it up - it really hurt). I shifted in my seat and tried to make small movements to help myself feel better.

 

I pretended I had to go to the bathroom or get a drink of water *and couldn't wait* ("Please mom! Honest! I gotta go!!!") at least once midway through the sermon, walked sloooooowly to the restroom and slooooowly back to the sanctuary (what a misnomer). My favorite part was when it was OVER.

 

I dreaded church. I played sick almost every Sunday to try and get out of going (never worked :tongue_smilie:).

 

So, honestly, I think forcing young children to sit through an adult service is, at best, a waste of time.

 

 

When I went to church with friends (because my parents didn't take me) I loved when we were allowed into adult church. I hated sunday school. The other kids were not there for the same reasons as I was. One time they even went around and asked each kid why they were there. I was the only child there to learn about God. Every other kid said either "my parents made me" or "to hang out with my friends". I never went back to that church. I wanted to find people that actually went to church for God.

 

Then I became a JW. I loved that they didn't separate kids out. They let kids join in on the regular service as if they were actually wanted.

 

I'm not a JW anymore, but I am beyond thrilled to go to a church where my son is welcome in the main congregation. I am also thrilled that he gets upset when we don't go. It shows that he is clearly not bored and clearly getting a lot out of the sermons. He is only 6.

Edited March 29, 2011 by Sputterduck

[....]

I mean...they are children....right? :001_smile:

 

I've never been to a church that didn't have programs for kids. Personally, I wouldn't want to go to one that didn't. So I don't understand why some see it as bad for a kid to sing songs and watch puppets instead of sitting in an adult's service that they aren't developed enough to get a lot out of?

 

 

There's absolutely nothing wrong with Children's Church and if that's what your family likes...go for it! :001_smile: Our denomination generally doesn't have a lot of kids' classes or activities. We have Sunday School before the service and there's no Children's Church or anything like that. The entire congregation attends service. We're kinda 14th century that way.

 

We do have VBS during the summer, tho. And it is singing, crafts, games, etc.

[Harriet Vane]

I'm not anti-children's church, but I haven't been impressed with the way it's been implemented at several churches I've attended.

 

When I was 12-18, I worked in our children's church several weeks a month. It was supposed to be for kids age 4 through first grade. Instead, there were kids as old as 11 attending. It was lead by our pastor's wife, who is a very fun person, but more of an indulgent grandma than a teacher. Basically, the kids sang some silly songs (most of which were goofy nonsense and not based on the Bible), listened to a 5 minute story, ate a sugary snack, then watched a video or played outside until church was over. I thought it was too much like babysitting and not enough like church/worship.

 

Once a month I was in charge of the whole thing, rather than just a helper. On these weeks I cut out the video and served water, oranges, and graham crackers instead of Koolaid and Oreos. I chose songs that were fun but that tied into the lesson rather than just being goofy nonsense songs. After the 10 minute lesson, we played some sort of group game that reinforced the lesson's topic. By then, there would be about 5 minutes left and we'd go outside to the playground until parents arrived. Now, my mom teaches children's church at this church and makes sure it is only for the 4-6 year olds. She does it the same way I did as a teen--basically like a 2nd Sunday School class. This, I am ok with.

 

When my mom was in college, her church's children's church was completely different. It was a scaled-down version of the adult service. It consisted of age-appropriate spiritual music, Bible reading, prayer, a short sermon, and even an offering! It was for kids age 5-12. The older kids collected the offering and helped lead the singing. The transition to "adult" church was much easier, as the kids had been used to the elements of the service. The Regular Baptist church we attended when I was 8-10 was similar, with the message being a missionary story 90% of the time. This, I am ok with.

 

Basically, if there is a thoughtful, coherent plan and purpose and actual biblical teaching, I think children's church can be a good thing. If it's just about keeping the kids busy, I think it is a waste of time and gives them a false idea that church is about entertainment instead of worship.

 

The highlighted sections summarize it well for me.

 

I will add this--keeping kids entirely separate from the adults for most of their lives increases their isolation from each other and builds separate communities. It also habituates the kids to a different form of worship so that they will not transition well to the adult service. I like a separate children's program, that actually teaches the Bible, for young children. However, as they grow in understanding and maturity, they should be together with the adults. I will also add that churches should make an effort to include elements of the service that will be more accessible to children, to help them not just attend (be there) but also enjoy and understand.

[Heather in Neverland]

I'm not "against" children's church/sunday school but I am not a big fan either:

 

It is the rare children's program that is truly teaching kids anything worth learning...most of the programs I have witnessed (here and back in the U.S.) are just entertaining the kids. (side note: one really great sunday school curriculum that does an incredible job teaching kids is "Children Desiring God" by John Piper's organization).

 

I do believe it is PRIMARILY (not ONLY) the parents' responsiblity to teach their children the things of God. Many parents leave it completely up to the sunday school teacher. My kids go to AWANA on Saturday mornings but they sit with us during the service on Sunday.

 

I am also VERY WARY about what is being taught in sunday school. When my ds was 5yo, I picked him up from sunday school and his "teacher" (18yo girl) tells me "Kyle asked Jesus to be his forever friend today!"

 

That was when my kids stopped going to Sunday School. NO ONE is going to water down the gospel and teach my kids that Jesus is like "Barney".

 

We are using the Children Desiring God curriculum at my school and my 6yo can easily name God's attributes (with the big words... immutable, omniscient, omnipotent, etc. and recite verse to go along with each and describe what they mean and what that means for his life). All because of a curriculum that takes children seriously. Don't underestimate what a little child can pick up when taught the right way.

[mrsrevmeg]

Not always true. (Coming from another childrens church worker--pre K.)

 

 

 

You would really be surprised what a 3-5 year old can learn if it is done in a way that is fun to them. At that age, fun is what engages them, and if it works, why not?

 

 

The above bolded is why I say most of the time. I really think if done right, children's church can be a wonderful thing. That is why I started helping out with it in the first place. However, in the vast majority of churches I have attended, and/or gone to "teacher training" events, it is nothing but fluffy baby-sitting time. My husband just resigned from a church we have been at for five years. Three and a half of those years I was the Children's Church leader. Not once did the pastor or anyone ever meet with me to see what I was teaching. Not once did any of the parents seem concerned. It was the same in another church where I was the children's church director. All they cared about was having the kids where they would not disrupt the service.

 

I am amazed at what young children can learn. Most people do not give them credit for being able to learn. I have no problems with fun, unless it is all fun and games and no learning. I really believe there are people out there (yourself included) who are in children's church to help the children learn and grow. However, those are the few and far betweens. The norm is something else entirely.

[happyhomemaker25]

 

I am also VERY WARY about what is being taught in sunday school. When my ds was 5yo, I picked him up from sunday school and his "teacher" (18yo girl) tells me "Kyle asked Jesus to be his forever friend today!"

 

That was when my kids stopped going to Sunday School. NO ONE is going to water down the gospel and teach my kids that Jesus is like "Barney".

 

We are using the Children Desiring God curriculum at my school and my 6yo can easily name God's attributes (with the big words... immutable, omniscient, omnipotent, etc. and recite verse to go along with each and describe what they mean and what that means for his life). All because of a curriculum that takes children seriously. Don't underestimate what a little child can pick up when taught the right way.

 

 

Yep. I also have an issue with a "raise your hand if you said the prayer" approach. Salvation is a serious thing for us. Judge me if you want but I grew up in church and was saved at a very early age. As I got older it got harder for me to understand. I believe with all my heart that Jesus is Lord of my life now, but I struggled in my young adult years. Looking back I think it was because of the way salvation was presented to me. Everybody says the prayer and gets saved. KWIM? For my kids it only starts when they start asking questions. From there it's a journey because I want them to understand what salvation is.

My two older children can share with anyone their salvation experience. They also have a much better grasp on the Bible then I did at their age.

My younger children always have great insights into our weekly sermon. We also read straight from the Bible for our daily family worship time.

I don't think it's fair to say that all children need to be taught on a different level than adults. I KNOW that it's possible for little children to get something out of the service. God has said that His Word will not return void.

If CC works for your family then great. Family worship works for my family.

[unsinkable]

My church (LDS) has it both ways. We meet as families for the first hour, where we take Sacrament (communion), and listen to speakers (picked from the congregation) give talks on various Gospel topics, then we divide up for Sunday School by age group. Toddlers go to nursery, kids go to Primary, teens go to youth classes. After that there's also gender specific classes for teens and adults (so ya, 3 hours of church, but you're doing 3 different things, and it's actually very engaging).

 

I love worshipping as a family. I love holding my children on my lap as we watch the Sacrament being blessed and passed (we don't go up for it, it's brought to us on trays and passed down the pews), and whispering into their ears what it represents, how thankful I am for my Savior, and how much He loves us all. I don't expect my kids to sit still, but I do expect them to be quiet, and for the most part they do. They don't hate it. It's part of our Sunday routine, and they expect it. :) (They still bolt right out of the chapel when it's time for Primary though. :lol: )

 

In Primary they get the Gospel message presented to them in a way that's easier for them to grasp, and sometimes one of them will sudden perk up when they hear someone in Sacrament meeting (the first meeting) say something they recognize from a lesson they had in Primary (or at home). It makes them feel grown up. :)

 

ETA: and I don't worry so much about "getting" much out of Sacrament meeting while my children are young. I'm there to partake of the Sacrament and worship My Father and His Son, and listen to the speakers bare witness to the truth of the gospel. I have Sunday School to "get" things from.

 

:grouphug: This is what I loved when I visited LDS services...the closeness I could see with some families.

[Hwin]

This thread has helped me to appreciate my church more... Here's why I like children's church:

 

Church is 1.5 hours and at least half the church IS kids. The reason I chose this church so that I wouldn't have to wrestle with my son for a whole service. Children's church also allows the pastor to talk about heavier issues that little ones might not be ready for. Oh and sex. We do talk about sex at our church. :D

 

Our children's church has a curriculum, it is basically unit studies. We start out with play (drop off time) then circle time (bible songs). We do our memory verse at that time. We then sit down to eat a snack. It starts with prayer, which may or may not be led by one of the children. Then, during snack, we do a short bible story on story boards, so that the laminated pages can be passed around and discussed. I work with 1-3yr olds so the discussion is very basic.

 

We have a craft or coloring sheet after that. Games often follow. Then there is play time.

 

Things like salvation, communion, and baptism are at the parent's discretion. i.e. there is a communion class but the parent decides, it's not "all second graders take communion" Also, a child doesn't need to attend the class in order to take part in communion. The parent can decide when it is appropriate. The same for being saved. The same for being baptized - the church has an age (13 I think?) which is a preferred minimum, but they leave the final say up to the parents.

 

Because I teach my son what I believe every day, I would send him to Children's church even if he was only playing with cars the whole time :P

 

ETA Children are transitioned into church service starting around 5, when they attend praise and worship for 30 min before CC, and by 13 or so they are fully in church. We also have family church weekends during the summer because, frankly, we don't have enough children's church ministers to keep up during vacation season.

Edited March 29, 2011 by Hwin

[*LC]

I had a wonderful time growing up going to children's church. I learned a lot.

 

We went to a church that had an absolutely, fantastic children's church where my children learned a lot.

 

When we moved, that is something we searched for in a church. I couldn't believe how hard it was to find.

 

I think children's church is great for kids and parents. Just wanted to let you know you were not alone.

[myfatherslily]

I mean...they are children....right? :001_smile:

 

I've never been to a church that didn't have programs for kids. Personally, I wouldn't want to go to one that didn't. So I don't understand why some see it as bad for a kid to sing songs and watch puppets instead of sitting in an adult's service that they aren't developed enough to get a lot out of?

 

I mean, we don't plop a new reader in front of a set of encyclopedias and demand they read the whole thing. We give them books that interest them, that fit their level of understanding.

 

We were doing science today and it reminded my son of an experiment his children's church pastor did a few weeks ago that explained an attribute of God. I find that the lessons my teen son's youth leader teaches on Sunday mornings really stick with him as well.

 

If you're against this during church time, do you also shun vacation bible school programs in the summer? Do you opt-out of using child-friendly biblical lessons in your homeschooling?

 

I don't mean to be snarky...I just don't understand the perspective that children's church is something to be avoided. It's been nothing but good for my kids. (And good for me, because I can actually get something out of a service instead of being distracted by a room full of active kids.) I do agree that kids need to learn how to sit still for an hour at a time, but there are ways to do this that don't involve making them attend regular church services weekly from birth, IMO.

 

I'm gonna be that person that jumps in and doesn't bother to read the previous 5 pages of replies, because I just finished the 14 page thread on MACHE/Ham and I really need to get started on school;)

 

But I took my two older kids out of children's church at the start of this year. Every program is going to be different and every parent will have different expectations. So I say, with love for my church family, that what my kids shared with me about our children's church did not meet my expectations for what I want them to be learning... or rather, how I want them to be learning. For example, we love movies here at our house and I have no problem with Bible-based videos. However, Veggie Tales and Jesus cartoons are not for children's church. Since I'm not in a place right now to volunteer, I opted to quietly remove my kids (I won't "complain" if I'm unwilling to help out!). It took awhile for me to make that decision, because I understand that the sermon is gonna go over their head.

 

I am having my 3 year old stay in nursery, though. He is incapable of being that quiet! Oh, he tries, he really does. He's learned to whisper, which is great. And he's learned to not run around crazy. I just don't think that everyone wants to hear an hour of steady whispering from a boy who's standing on the seat!:tongue_smilie:

[Lovedtodeath]

I am having my 3 year old stay in nursery, though. He is incapable of being that quiet! Oh, he tries, he really does. He's learned to whisper, which is great. And he's learned to not run around crazy. I just don't think that everyone wants to hear an hour of steady whispering from a boy who's standing on the seat!:tongue_smilie:

See now, in my mind somewhere between 5 and 7 years old is the cut off anyway. My daughter really started being able to act as though she was paying attention and also benefit from what was being said at around 7. My son will be turning 4 soon and it has been 3 years of him talking and distracting everyone with no understanding that he should whisper. I feel like there should be something in place so that mothers don't have to be mortified every time they attend.

 

He did get something out of one meeting. They were talking about Jacob. "Jacob, that's me!" came out of his mouth about 5 times. :001_wub:

Edited March 29, 2011 by Lovedtodeath