Suicide

[Aubrey]

Since you all are being so patient w/ me today, this is something else that I'd like to know about.

 

Why do some churches believe murder is forgivable but suicide is not? (Assuming no proof of severe mental illness, which I believe is always an exception.)

 

It reminds me of Hamlet's dad being killed w/out a chance to repent, & Hamlet feeling that that made death immediately after repenting too good for his uncle. It wasn't fair.

 

That whole business...I have trouble with that.

[lionfamily1999]

What did you eat for lunch today?!?

 

Holy guacamole!!!!

 

I think the idea is that you don't have a chance to repent of suicide. I have found that different church leaders believe different things and most that I know don't touch it with a ten foot pole if they know that a specific case is being discussed. IOW, they're willing to speak hypothetically, but not specifically.

[KristinaBreece]

IIRC... it has to do with the ability of the person to repent on their own behalf. They look at suicide as killing, and if the person you've killed is yourself, you can't seek personal forgiveness from God.

[Heather in Neverland]

IIRC... it has to do with the ability of the person to repent on their own behalf. They look at suicide as killing, and if the person you've killed is yourself, you can't seek personal forgiveness from God.

 

This is what I have been told as well...it's the idea of dying as an unrepetent sinner. Not sure how I feel about it though, especially since I think you have to be in some state of mental illness, even if only temporarily, to take your own life.

[Aubrey]

What did you eat for lunch today?!?

 

Holy guacamole!!!!

 

This is why I don't mind going to funerals, but I hate baby/bridal showers. :D

 

I think the idea is that you don't have a chance to repent of suicide. I have found that different church leaders believe different things and most that I know don't touch it with a ten foot pole if they know that a specific case is being discussed. IOW, they're willing to speak hypothetically, but not specifically.

 

I don't want to offend anybody, so I'll just say: this makes sense & it doesn't. It makes one crime worse than another in an unjust way. Like killing girls is unforgivable, but boys? Eh, 20 years in prison, & you're good.

 

I realize that there is a limitation there, but to say that there is no room for grace for one sin but there is for another seems unjust.

[Carol in Cal.]

Yes, part of it is the unrepentant sinner issue, but the other thing is the question of whether it is reasonable to reach God through an act of disobediance and lack of faith and trust (despair).

 

10 foot pole still applies, though. I'm just clarifying the argument. I'm not making one or speaking for any particular church.

[Ester Maria]

Your existence is the fact you have no right to rebel against.

[lionfamily1999]

This is why I don't mind going to funerals, but I hate baby/bridal showers. :D

 

 

 

I don't want to offend anybody, so I'll just say: this makes sense & it doesn't. It makes one crime worse than another in an unjust way. Like killing girls is unforgivable, but boys? Eh, 20 years in prison, & you're good.

 

I realize that there is a limitation there, but to say that there is no room for grace for one sin but there is for another seems unjust.

Not really. If a murderer were to be gunned down in the act of murdering someone he'd be in the same boat. No chance to repent, no chance for forgiveness.

 

Now, again, I'm not saying that is MY pov. My father's father commited suicide when my dad was about my middle son's age. The religious person that came to see him in the hospital destroyed my father's faith. Ironically, it was his (my grandfather's) marriage to my dad's mom that was the issue, not the suicide (it was a long slow process that took days). Basically, he was forgiven for the suicide, but not for marrying outside of his religion and (horrors!) creating offspring.

 

Talking to a Methodist pastor about suicide, after the suicide of a co-worker, I found a different pov. He said it was all in WHY they commited suicide. IOW, generally suicide is thought of as the last f- u now aren't you sorry, but that for some suicide is an attempt to save those around them. Think of it as, what if Manson grew a conscience and decided to rid the world of himself, because he knew he was too dangerous? What if his motives were to help those around him? We ended up discussing giving up life for another, versus suicide. It was a very interesting conversation...

 

:lol:

 

All that to say, one big issue with suicide is that it shows a lack of trust in God (which is really what salvation is all about, isn't it?). However, we hold up those that give their lives as heroes and that, imo, is why motivation is everything.

[JudoMom]

This is why I don't mind going to funerals, but I hate baby/bridal showers. :D

 

 

 

I don't want to offend anybody, so I'll just say: this makes sense & it doesn't. It makes one crime worse than another in an unjust way. Like killing girls is unforgivable, but boys? Eh, 20 years in prison, & you're good.

 

I realize that there is a limitation there, but to say that there is no room for grace for one sin but there is for another seems unjust.

 

The argument doesn't hold water for me. Either Christ's atonement for my sins was good enough or it wasn't. If a believer commits suicide, I fully believe that Christ paid the price for that sin, too.

 

And on that note--I'm off to do "science speriments" with ds5.

[Daisy]

I don't believe that and my tradition doesn't believe that.

 

I don't believe that once one has been converted and become a true Christian that one sin will send them to hell either.

 

I believe in the preservation of the saints.

 

Suicide is the result of a terrible mental state and it not the unpardonable sin.

 

Here are R.C. Sproul's thoughts on the matter from his book Surprised by Suffering (obviously Reformed pov).

 

What about suicide? What happens to those who commit suicide?

 

Historically the church has taken a dim view of suicide… However we are left with the fact that many people do, in fact, kill themselves.

 

I was once asked on a television talk show if people who committed suicide could go to heaven. I answered with a simple, “Yes.” My answer caused the switchboard lights to glow like a Christmas tree. The host was shocked by my response.

 

I explained that suicide is nowhere identified as an unforgivable sin. We do not know with any degree of certainty what is going through a person’s mind at the moment of suicide. It is possible that suicide is an act of pure unbelief, a succumbing to total despair that indicates the absence of any faith in God. On the other hand, it may be the sign of temporary or prolonged mental illness. It may result from a sudden wave of severe depression…

 

One psychiatrist remarked that the vast majority of people who commit suicide would not have done so had they waited 24 hours. Such an observation is conjecture, but it is conjecture based upon numerous interviews of persons who made serious attempts at suicide but failed and consequently recovered.

 

The point is that people commit suicide for a wide variety of reasons. The complexity of the thinking process of a person at the moment of suicide is known comprehensively to God. God takes all mitigating circumstances into account when he renders his judgment on any person.

 

Though we must seek to discourage people from suicide, we leave those who have done it to the mercy of God.

[Cinder]

Why do some churches believe murder is forgivable but suicide is not?

 

I have never heard of this. :confused:

[Aubrey]

Sorry--double post.

Edited March 8, 2011 by Aubrey

[Peela]

Many cultures have a very strong taboo against suicide except under certain circumstances. I think its a universal concept that the taking of one's own life is such a terrible waste of such a gift. Life is precious and sacred.

[TravelingChris]

I could never belong to a church which believed that. It is so merciless and unforgiving and further more, so extremely hurtful for the survivors. My eyes are tearing up about such actions. Are there some denominations that have this as a doctrine because I want to stay away. I am completely with R.C. Sproul on this. No, I don't have anyone I know anyone who committed suicide but growing up I did know two kids whose mothers did (different families).

[Aubrey]

The argument doesn't hold water for me. Either Christ's atonement for my sins was good enough or it wasn't. If a believer commits suicide, I fully believe that Christ paid the price for that sin, too.

 

And on that note--I'm off to do "science speriments" with ds5.

 

Minus the experiments, I'm with you.

[Aubrey]

Not really. If a murderer were to be gunned down in the act of murdering someone he'd be in the same boat. No chance to repent, no chance for forgiveness.

 

Come on. That unlikely event is not really relevant to the reality that people who successfully commit suicide will not have a chance to repent but people who successfully commit murder usually will.

[May]

I trust in the mercy of Christ in regards to those who commit suicide.

[Kathleen in VA]

I don't believe that and my tradition doesn't believe that.

 

I don't believe that once one has been converted and become a true Christian that one sin will send them to hell either.

 

I believe in the preservation of the saints.

 

Suicide is the result of a terrible mental state and it not the unpardonable sin.

 

Here are R.C. Sproul's thoughts on the matter from his book Surprised by Suffering (obviously Reformed pov).

:iagree:I believe in preservation of the saints as well. I've always thought suicide was the most selfish thing a person could do - very cruel - but only God knows what's actually going through a person's mind. And of course, there could be physiological complications that create the mindset that one has no choice but to take his own life.

[jenn1129]

The argument doesn't hold water for me. Either Christ's atonement for my sins was good enough or it wasn't. If a believer commits suicide, I fully believe that Christ paid the price for that sin, too.

 

 

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree: I'm so glad God is bigger than we people make Him out to be.

[lionfamily1999]

Come on. That unlikely event is not really relevant to the reality that people who successfully commit suicide will not have a chance to repent but people who successfully commit murder usually will.

I don't know Aubrey, I read about it often enough in the news.

 

However, you point was...

It makes one crime worse than another in an unjust way.

And I don't see that. We're never promised another moment. We are not supposed to do things believing we'll get a chance to repent.

 

All the same, I'm in the "once saved always saved" camp. That would include Christians that commit suicide. Speaking of non-believers, though... well, even if they got a pass for that last sin they're in hot water.

 

I wrote before about motives and also about one losing faith. Minding I'm a once saved always saved person, I would say that suicide of the despair kind, where the motive is "life is too much for me" is suicide that speaks of a lack of faith/trust in God. There are bigger issues there.

 

Oh, and I don't think that any one thing makes a person more ****able than another. A sin's a sin. I see the point that people make with suicide being different, only because there's usually no chance for repentance.

 

I trust in the mercy of Christ in regards to those who commit suicide.

:iagree:

[OnTheBrink]

I don't believe that and my tradition doesn't believe that.

 

I don't believe that once one has been converted and become a true Christian that one sin will send them to hell either.

 

I believe in the preservation of the saints.

 

Suicide is the result of a terrible mental state and it not the unpardonable sin.

 

Here are R.C. Sproul's thoughts on the matter from his book Surprised by Suffering (obviously Reformed pov).

 

:iagree:I believe in preservation of the saints as well. I've always thought suicide was the most selfish thing a person could do - very cruel - but only God knows what's actually going through a person's mind. And of course, there could be physiological complications that create the mindset that one has no choice but to take his own life.

 

I agree with both ladies.

[Aubrey]

:iagree:I believe in preservation of the saints as well. I've always thought suicide was the most selfish thing a person could do - very cruel - but only God knows what's actually going through a person's mind. And of course, there could be physiological complications that create the mindset that one has no choice but to take his own life.

 

I think calling suicide "selfish" is cruel. I knew someone who lost her brother this way, & these were her accusations against him. Maybe for him it was selfish. I'm sure she was speaking from a place of incredible hurt, BUT I don't think suicide is coming from a *different* place, kwim?

 

People who are feeling suicidal & need help often won't seek it because of these kinds of attitudes.

[DawnM]

Noone who commits suicide is in his right mind....there has to be some deep, deep issue going on there.....so honestly, I don't believe it is any kind of unforgiveable sin. Thank God I believe in one who is merciful beyond what we can comprehend.

 

In fact, I haven't ever been in a church that believed that you would not be forgiven or that you would go directly to hell because of suicide.

 

Dawn

[ChristusG]

Hmm....interesting to think about (and a bit morbid too :D ).

 

Let me think aloud....

 

To God, a sin is a sin. Lying is no better than murdering, cheating on a test is no better than cheating on your spouse, etc. People say that suicide is "unforgivable" because the sinner didn't get the chance to repent to God, right? Well, how about if someone (a born again, saved, completely sure they are going to Heave believer) tells a little white lie and then two seconds later gets run over by a bus and dies on the spot. They didn't have the chance to repent. Are they going to hell because of that?

 

It's a tough thought process.

 

I believe that God died for us no matter what. And if we believe that, then we are saved and going to Heaven. I mean, seriously, we sin EVERY single day. Does every person that dies repent of EVERY single thing they have done?

[Kathleen in VA]

I think calling suicide "selfish" is cruel. I knew someone who lost her brother this way, & these were her accusations against him. Maybe for him it was selfish. I'm sure she was speaking from a place of incredible hurt, BUT I don't think suicide is coming from a *different* place, kwim?

 

People who are feeling suicidal & need help often won't seek it because of these kinds of attitudes.

 

Well, I'm absolutely sure it depends on the situation. My mom attempted suicide many times as I was growing up - almost succeeded on several of those occasions - so perhaps my viewpoint is skewed a bit. It always seemed like she was saying, by her actions, that she didn't love us - didn't have any use for us and that we didn't add enough joy to her life to make living worthwhile. It hurt a great deal. Like I said, only God knows what's really going through a person's mind and also, there could be physiological malfunctions affecting the person's state of mind.

 

I don't think it's necessarily cruel - but I think it certainly can be. To end your life and leave all your relatives hanging, wondering what in the world was happening - it seems very, very unkind to me.

[lionfamily1999]

Well, I'm absolutely sure it depends on the situation. My mom attempted suicide many times as I was growing up - almost succeeded on several of those occasions - so perhaps my viewpoint is skewed a bit. It always seemed like she was saying, by her actions, that she didn't love us - didn't have any use for us and that we didn't add enough joy to her life to make living worthwhile. It hurt a great deal. Like I said, only God knows what's really going through a person's mind and also, there could be physiological malfunctions affecting the person's state of mind.

 

I don't think it's necessarily cruel - but I think it certainly can be. To end your life and leave all your relatives hanging, wondering what in the world was happening - it seems very, very unkind to me.

Very self-centered.

 

I've known two people to commit suicide and I already mentioned my dad's dad. None of them stopped to consider their families, or if they did it was in a half-hiney sort of way.

[dirty ethel rackham]

:iagree: I've always thought suicide was the most selfish thing a person could do - very cruel -

 

As someone who has been suicidal in the past, hearing someone call suicide selfish is very painful to hear. The place of making that decision is one of unspeakable pain ... an emotional agony so intense that one simply cannot imagine relief. To feel so unworthy of life that you actually believe everyone in your world, including your closest loved ones, would be better off without you ...

 

A person considering suicide needs compassion, not scorn. That person is NOT in their right mind. How is it that we can have compassion for the crotchety Alzheimer's patient, but not a suicidal person?

[KristinaBreece]

Well, I'm absolutely sure it depends on the situation. My mom attempted suicide many times as I was growing up - almost succeeded on several of those occasions - so perhaps my viewpoint is skewed a bit. It always seemed like she was saying, by her actions, that she didn't love us - didn't have any use for us and that we didn't add enough joy to her life to make living worthwhile. It hurt a great deal. Like I said, only God knows what's really going through a person's mind and also, there could be physiological malfunctions affecting the person's state of mind.

 

I don't think it's necessarily cruel - but I think it certainly can be. To end your life and leave all your relatives hanging, wondering what in the world was happening - it seems very, very unkind to me.

 

Very self-centered.

 

I've known two people to commit suicide and I already mentioned my dad's dad. None of them stopped to consider their families, or if they did it was in a half-hiney sort of way.

 

I think when someone is that depressed & they feel compelled to take their own life, they really may believe that their family will be better off without them around. They may really be thinking of the family they are preparing to leave behind, but from such a difficult, unhealthy place that it seems absolutely selfish & illogical to those who haven't been in the same place.

[Aubrey]

Well, I'm absolutely sure it depends on the situation. My mom attempted suicide many times as I was growing up - almost succeeded on several of those occasions - so perhaps my viewpoint is skewed a bit. It always seemed like she was saying, by her actions, that she didn't love us - didn't have any use for us and that we didn't add enough joy to her life to make living worthwhile. It hurt a great deal. Like I said, only God knows what's really going through a person's mind and also, there could be physiological malfunctions affecting the person's state of mind.

 

I don't think it's necessarily cruel - but I think it certainly can be. To end your life and leave all your relatives hanging, wondering what in the world was happening - it seems very, very unkind to me.

 

I'm so sorry. My grandmother repeatedly threatened to commit suicide when my mom was growing up, but she only attempted it once. Yes, that was a cruel life for mom & her sibs, in so many ways.

 

BUT I believe that my grandmother was suffering a great deal, too. I think she was mentally ill. Could she have done better? That's very hard to say, & I don't want to go there.

 

I wouldn't tell a child who lost a parent (or almost lost a parent) this way that the parent's actions were *cruel* any more than I'd tell them that it was their fault. I think both statements can hurt the child, who probably needs to know that there was good in their parents & that they were loved.

 

Ime, parents who attempt suicide are trying to give their children a better life. They *see* that they simply can't do it, & in a mentally ill state, they try to "fix" the problem.

 

I have never been through this exactly. My dad died of a heart attack because he refused to go to the hospital because he wanted to die. That's very different from growing up with repeated attempts.

:grouphug:

[lionfamily1999]

As someone who has been suicidal in the past, hearing someone call suicide selfish is very painful to hear. The place of making that decision is one of unspeakable pain ... an emotional agony so intense that one simply cannot imagine relief. To feel so unworthy of life that you actually believe everyone in your world, including your closest loved ones, would be better off without you ...

 

A person considering suicide needs compassion, not scorn. That person is NOT in their right mind. How is it that we can have compassion for the crotchety Alzheimer's patient, but not a suicidal person?

I'm sorry if my post hurt you.

I think when someone is that depressed & they feel compelled to take their own life, they really may believe that their family will be better off without them around. They may really be thinking of the family they are preparing to leave behind, but from such a difficult, unhealthy place that it seems absolutely selfish & illogical to those who haven't been in the same place.

That's why I keep saying motives. I understand that some people believe they're doing everyone else a favor. My problem is seeing it from the survivor's point of view. Like Kathleen said, that can color opinions. It's also why I used self-centered rather than selfish, because at that point it's all centered around the self. How people percieve the self, what people think about the self, how the self feels. Reality can lose its foothold in a self-centered universe, iykwIm.

 

My dad's dad thought he was helping everyone else. As a parent he should have known that he was laying a load of crapola at his son's feet. A load of crapola that his son has born the rest of his life up to this very day. A load of crapola that's gotten passed on like a stinking hierloom. Yes, I understand that my grandfather thought he was doing something magnanimous. But if he could have gotten past himself for a moment he would have seen that he left his little boy holding the bag without a Daddy there to explain and comfort him.

[Kathleen in VA]

I'm so sorry. My grandmother repeatedly threatened to commit suicide when my mom was growing up, but she only attempted it once. Yes, that was a cruel life for mom & her sibs, in so many ways.

 

BUT I believe that my grandmother was suffering a great deal, too. I think she was mentally ill. Could she have done better? That's very hard to say, & I don't want to go there.

 

I wouldn't tell a child who lost a parent (or almost lost a parent) this way that the parent's actions were *cruel* any more than I'd tell them that it was their fault. I think both statements can hurt the child, who probably needs to know that there was good in their parents & that they were loved.

 

Ime, parents who attempt suicide are trying to give their children a better life. They *see* that they simply can't do it, & in a mentally ill state, they try to "fix" the problem.

 

I have never been through this exactly. My dad died of a heart attack because he refused to go to the hospital because he wanted to die. That's very different from growing up with repeated attempts.

:grouphug:

 

Well, no one told me it was cruel - it just felt that way. Perhaps I'm not in a good position to offer an opinion - it hits a little too close to home. I'm sorry if I offended anyone. Try to think it from my pov if you possibly can. Thanks.

[KrissiK]

I do not believe that suicide is unforgivable. For one thing, if our Salvation is based on the completed work of Christ on the Cross, and there is nothing we can do to earn our Salvation, how then can we do something to lose our salvation? I do not want to go into a theological discourse here, so I am going to summarize greatly, but I do not believe that our sins are itemized, we must repent of each and every one of them, etc. etc. We sin because we are sinners and Christ died to appease the wrath of God on our behalf because we are sinners. When we receive Salvation we receive God's forgiveness, period. Our repentance of individual sins, for example lying to my husband or yelling at my kids, that is part of our sanctification process. I'm probably not explaining myself well, because I have to get to baseball practice, but... suffice it to say, no, I don't believe that suicide is unforgivable. If the person is a CHristian, they have received forgiveness.

[Aubrey]

Well, no one told me it was cruel - it just felt that way. Perhaps I'm not in a good position to offer an opinion - it hits a little too close to home. I'm sorry if I offended anyone. Try to think it from my pov if you possibly can. Thanks.

 

I didn't mean anyone had told you that, only that feeling that way must be as painful as thinking it's your fault.

 

There have been a lot of suicide attempts in my family, &...I guess the subject strikes a chord w/ me, too. I think my mom is the only one of her sibs who can even talk to my grandmother today--they are very hurt, very angry w/ her.

 

I hope I haven't hurt you. I'm very, very sorry for what you experienced.

[OnTheBrink]

Well, I'm absolutely sure it depends on the situation. My mom attempted suicide many times as I was growing up - almost succeeded on several of those occasions - so perhaps my viewpoint is skewed a bit. It always seemed like she was saying, by her actions, that she didn't love us - didn't have any use for us and that we didn't add enough joy to her life to make living worthwhile. It hurt a great deal. Like I said, only God knows what's really going through a person's mind and also, there could be physiological malfunctions affecting the person's state of mind.

 

I don't think it's necessarily cruel - but I think it certainly can be. To end your life and leave all your relatives hanging, wondering what in the world was happening - it seems very, very unkind to me.

 

My step-brother committed suicide. I so clearly remember my step-mother's angst over "Why didn't he just CALL me? Why couldn't he think about the pain he'd cause the rest of us? He could have gotten over this. We'll NEVER get over what he's done." He ended his young life over the cruelty of his ex-wife. She wasn't worth his dying over.

 

And, I've suffered severe depression in the past and have toyed with the idea of suicide when I was younger, so I'm not without the ability to relate. And, I think "selfish" in this type of circumstance isn't necessarily an accusation, like a child won't share a toy kind of selfish. I think one of the results of depression is that people tend to think of themselves. I don't mean in a narcissistic way, but in a way that they're thinking about their pain a lot. I'm afraid I'm not putting this clearly. I don't mean this with judgment or accusation. I can only speak from my own experiences, and when I'm really depressed, and back when I was a teen and young adult, my suicidal ideations were based on my how miserable I was, or how awful my life was. I never gave a thought to doing squat for anyone else, I was in pain so I only thought about me. In my mind, that's how I view suicide as "selfish."

 

Depression is a complex issue. So many variables go into why someone's depressed, to what degree, whether it's an organic or circumstantial cause. I truly believe in a God of grace who'd know exactly where someone's heart and mind are at the moment of death. I don't categorically believe suicide=hell. God hates sin and his wrath can come down on it, but he's also a God of mercy and grace and gave us a high priest who can relate to every. single. thing. we feel and are tempted by--a high priest who shed His blood for every sin we make. We can't judge where someone lands in the afterlife; we can make educated guesses based on their lives, but only God knows who's truly His. Only God can truly know a man's heart or mind.

[Melissa in Australia]

In the Lord's Prayer we learn that God will judge us AS WE JUDGE OTHERS.

 

 

 

My Father committed suicide. Nobody but God can judge him, nobody knows what pain he was going through, what state of mind he was in etc.

[Guest Momlovesbooks]

I don't believe that and my tradition doesn't believe that.

 

I don't believe that once one has been converted and become a true Christian that one sin will send them to hell either.

 

I believe in the preservation of the saints.

 

Suicide is the result of a terrible mental state and it not the unpardonable sin.

 

Here are R.C. Sproul's thoughts on the matter from his book Surprised by Suffering (obviously Reformed pov).

 

 

I Love R.C. Sproul and I loved that book too! :iagree:

[Kathleen in VA]

I didn't mean anyone had told you that, only that feeling that way must be as painful as thinking it's your fault.

 

There have been a lot of suicide attempts in my family, &...I guess the subject strikes a chord w/ me, too. I think my mom is the only one of her sibs who can even talk to my grandmother today--they are very hurt, very angry w/ her.

 

I hope I haven't hurt you. I'm very, very sorry for what you experienced.

 

You haven't hurt me, Aubrey. Any hurt I feel right now has been submerged very deeply for a very long time, I guess. Some things just have a way of lingering, often unnoticed, for years. Perhaps it's harder to understand when you are a child trying to make sense of it and don't have the benefit of an adult pov.

[Linda1951]

I have always heard that the unpardonable sin is not accepting Christ as your Lord and Savior.

 

God forgives all sins. If a person kills themselves God knows the situation and it is his choice to forgive or not.

Only he knows what was going on in that persons live and mind at the time.

[TravelingChris]

HOw do I report a post to the moderators? ABove post is spam and needs reporting.

[jenn1129]

i reported it. you click on the triangle in the upper right side of the individual's post.

[Laurie4b]

I think calling suicide "selfish" is cruel. I knew someone who lost her brother this way, & these were her accusations against him. Maybe for him it was selfish. I'm sure she was speaking from a place of incredible hurt, BUT I don't think suicide is coming from a *different* place, kwim?

 

People who are feeling suicidal & need help often won't seek it because of these kinds of attitudes.

 

I once worked in a crisis center under the supervision of a man who in 17 years of crisis-counseling work had never lost someone who was suicidal. In his words: "Every suicide is a multiple homicide." In other words, it is a choice to inflict deep emotional pain on everyone who loves you. Many, many suicides have this as their deliberate and primary intent: "I'll show you. You'll be sorry." Others have this as a side-effect of their decision to relieve their pain. It's not their main intent to inflict horrible levels of pain on others, but it is a predictable effect of their decision.

 

This crisis counselor used the fact that a suicide would inflict horrific pain on every one who loved them as one of the things he talked about with the second type of suicidal person, some of whom are just so focused on their own pain that they haven't thought of others or they are unrealistic in thinking "they'll be better off without me."

 

It is not cruel to call suicide selfish and cruel. It is realistic.

 

I worked in mental health for many years; people who are suicidal and don't seek help are those who are determined to do it. They are a small minority. Most others remain ambivalent for a period of time and these usually do seek help in some way. And the help they get may well include a dose of what the impact will be on each and every person who cares about them. And much of the time it is exactly that call to the love they have for others that saves them.

[lionfamily1999]

I wouldn't tell a child who lost a parent (or almost lost a parent) this way that the parent's actions were *cruel* any more than I'd tell them that it was their fault. I think both statements can hurt the child, who probably needs to know that there was good in their parents & that they were loved.

What would you say then?

 

The people I know that have lost loved ones to suicide seem to have one of two choices. They can blame themselves (and many of them do) or they can blame the person that did it. I understand that not everything needs to have blame laid. I know that in a perfect world a child might understand that their parent thought they were doing the right thing, or was sick, or whatever great excuse, but that still leaves so many unanswered questions, ergo selfish/self-centered.

 

Okay, so they killed themselves, but they thought it was for your own good.

 

Does that mean that for the rest of their life they have to worry that EVERYONE they love may kill themselves for their well-being? Doesn't that idea itself make the child to blame? If they weren't there then their parent would not have had someone whose well-being rested upon the parent committing suicide?

 

They were sick.

 

So, why didn't the loved ones see it? Oh man, that gets a lot of people right there. Hey, I lost a coworker and I felt that. Why didn't we see how down he was? Why didn't we know he was going to do it? Why didn't we reach out more?

 

They were in pain.

 

And the loved ones' love was not enough to comfort them.

 

Basically, in every explanation for suicide (by this I don't mean death in the act of saving another or the other grey areas of suicide) there is guilt left over for the survivors. It is self-centered, because there are ALWAYS people left living their lives with that burden, that burden that was TOO MUCH for the person that killed themself. And for all the modern psychological thought on it, it doesn't change that many people carry those burdens for the rest of their lives. Children grow up never even THINKING to blame their children for their own state of mind or actions, but still BELIEVING they are at fault for the suicide of a parent.

 

It's self-centered. It stinks. It stinks that so much can come between a person and those that love them. But, imo, what really stinks is leaving those people holding the bag. And yes, it's cruel. Thoughtless cruelty.

 

 

======================

All the same, instant hell? According to my beliefs, nope! Once saved, always saved. I can see why some would say it is unforgivable, though.

[ktgrok]

You can ask for forgiveness after murder, but in theory you are already dead after suicide, so no chance to ask for forgiveness. I know though that in the Roman Catholic church in order to commit a mortal sin you must know and believe that it is a mortal sin. And honestly, I can't believe anyone commits suicide really believing that it means going to hell. So therefore, if they commited suicide they didn't realize/know/believe that it was a mortal sin, so it isn't, and there is chance for redemption.

 

Honestly, I think the church overthinks things sometimes. People mess up. God knows that. God loves us, He figures it out. I refuse to put limits of what he will and won't do, only he knows that.

 

I always liked what I learned in RCIA class, that the church "knows" there are people in heaven, but has no knowledge as to wether there are people in hell or not. As far as the church is concerned it is totally possible that everyone has been forgiven. It's up to God.

[Kim in Appalachia]

it was because you couldn't repent and be forgiven by the priest. You had to go to confession to confess you sins and be forgiven.

 

I don't agree with this, and I think it is a difficult matter. I believe The Lord's judgments are just, and His mercy endures forever.

[dirty ethel rackham]

 

It is not cruel to call suicide selfish and cruel. It is realistic.

If someone had said that to me when I was in a suicidal fog, that would have been the final nail in the coffin. I already felt so unworthy of life that this would have been the final blow to my self esteem.

 

And the help they get may well include a dose of what the impact will be on each and every person who cares about them. And much of the time it is exactly that call to the love they have for others that saves them.

 

I strongly agree with the bolded. If I had not been homeschooling my children, I would not be here today. It was hearing my children's voices that pulled me from the brink. Had they been in school that day, I may very well have actuated a plan.

[lionfamily1999]

If someone had said that to me when I was in a suicidal fog, that would have been the final nail in the coffin. I already felt so unworthy of life that this would have been the final blow to my self esteem.

 

 

 

I strongly agree with the bolded. If I had not been homeschooling my children, I would not be here today. It was hearing my children's voices that pulled me from the brink. Had they been in school that day, I may very well have actuated a plan.

Don't you see, though, that what saved you was not wanting to hurt your children? You didn't want to leave them. You put them first.

 

:grouphug:

 

Going through with it regardless, ignoring the voices of your children, that would have been cruel. But you DIDN"T do that. You put them first. You heard them and remembered them and responded. You weren't cruel. You weren't selfish. You could have been, but you weren't.

 

:grouphug:

 

I hope what I'm trying to say is what is getting conveyed.

[joannqn]

I think when someone is that depressed & they feel compelled to take their own life, they really may believe that their family will be better off without them around. They may really be thinking of the family they are preparing to leave behind, but from such a difficult, unhealthy place that it seems absolutely selfish & illogical to those who haven't been in the same place.

:iagree:

 

 

I was suicidal about 7 years ago. I had formulated a plan and was waiting for the right time to carry it.

 

My entire reason for committing suicide was for my family's benefit. I felt I was a horrible mother (and was pretty bad at times), wife, and person. I absolutely believed my family, especially my kids, would be better off without me. I was killing myself to save them the pain of having to live with me in their lives, having me mess up their lives.

 

I considered abandoning my family. Just walking away and never coming back. I felt that suicide was preferable to that. If I just walked away, I would still have to live with the depression and the guilt of leaving my kids behind. If I walked away, I felt the kids would feel more unloved (because mom was still out there "living up her life" without them) than if I were dead.

 

I still feel guilt over that time in my life, but I'm not suicidal anymore. I don't get depressed anymore. I have so many safeguards in place now, I don't think I could get there again.

[Holly IN]

I know even within the Churchs of Christ and Christian Churches differ on this. For me each situation is different. A lady that belonged to the church I grew up in killed herself but she had mental illness (bipolar and maniac depressent....SEVERE!!) Lot of us believe she is in heaven because of this severity of her mental illness but we HONESTLY do not know. Only God can decide. So my belief is that let's see what the Bible said and then leave it at that. I also state that God knows each person's heart so it is HIS decision alone. None of us can't say either/or. I do believe people can be very cruel in stating whether this or that person went to Hell or Heaven. I just look at it and say only God makes that decision and we are NOT Him.

 

Holly

[dirty ethel rackham]

Don't you see, though, that what saved you was not wanting to hurt your children? You didn't want to leave them. You put them first.

 

I said I agreed with you.

[unsinkable]

I know even within the Churchs of Christ and Christian Churches differ on this. For me each situation is different. A lady that belonged to the church I grew up in killed herself but she had mental illness (bipolar and maniac depressent....SEVERE!!) Lot of us believe she is in heaven because of this severity of her mental illness but we HONESTLY do not know. Only God can decide. So my belief is that let's see what the Bible said and then leave it at that. I also state that God knows each person's heart so it is HIS decision alone. None of us can't say either/or. I do believe people can be very cruel in stating whether this or that person went to Hell or Heaven. I just look at it and say only God makes that decision and we are NOT Him. Holly

 

You wrote " let's see what the Bible said and then leave it at that."

 

Then you wrote, "I just look at it and say only God makes that decision and we are NOT Him."

 

I am not trying to be snarky but are these the same thing, in regard to the topic of suicide? Does it say in the Bible that God decides suicides on a case by case basis?