What?!? 12 y.o. homeschooled killer?

[FairProspects]

Anybody else see this?!?

 

http://www.komonews.com/news/national/117316658.html

[unsinkable]

I heard about this briefly on the radio in the middle of the night but they didn't say he was homeschooled.

 

(Putting on my fame-retardant suit: IMO, if a 12 yo boy does this, my first thoughts turn to s3x abu$e...or extreme mental illness.)

[FairProspects]

I heard about this briefly on the radio in the middle of the night but they didn't say he was homeschooled.

 

(Putting on my fame-retardant suit: IMO, if a 12 yo boy does this, my first thoughts turn to s3x abu$e...or extreme mental illness.)

 

:iagree:Usually, I would think psycho homeschooling case - the kind where they lock up the kids or something, but this family sounds shockingly normal.

[MrsBasil]

I saw this. The Denver Post is saying that the mother homeschooled all 7 of her children(ages5-to mid 20's). The family was also active in their church.

 

He has two younger siblings who are reportedly in critical condition.

 

Here's the story from the Post. http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_17525725

 

Don't bother with the comments.

[unsinkable]

I saw this. The Denver Post is saying that the mother homeschooled all 7 of her children(ages5-to mid 20's). The family was also active in their church.

 

He has two younger siblings who are reportedly in critical condition.

 

Here's the story from the Post. http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_17525725

 

Don't bother with the comments.

 

Thanks for the warning. I'd put a smiley but this is so horrible...

[KristinaBreece]

I saw this. The Denver Post is saying that the mother homeschooled all 7 of her children(ages5-to mid 20's). The family was also active in their church.

 

He has two younger siblings who are reportedly in critical condition.

 

Here's the story from the Post. http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_17525725

 

Don't bother with the comments.

 

I'm sure they haven't gotten any better as the day's gone on. I read through them earlier this morning... and wished I hadn't. It amazes me how people assume that all Evangelicals are "religious extremists" and that homeschooled children are at best destined for a life time of social retardation, and at worst slated to be a cult of mass murdering sociopaths. My guess is that there was more to this particular family than the world was seeing, (Isn't there always more beneath the surface?) and that it will all come out eventually.

[Lilymax]

Oh gosh...that is so incredibly sad. :(

 

There has to be something that was going on...12 year olds don't just snap unless something is horribly wrong, or they're extremely mentally ill.

[Slartibartfast]

I'm sure they haven't gotten any better as the day's gone on. I read through them earlier this morning... and wished I hadn't. It amazes me how people assume that all Evangelicals are "religious extremists" and that homeschooled children are at best destined for a life time of social retardation, and at worst slated to be a cult of mass murdering sociopaths. My guess is that there was more to this particular family than the world was seeing, (Isn't there always more beneath the surface?) and that it will all come out eventually.

 

It seems that people who comment on such things are always like that no matter who they are attacking. :(

[justamouse]

Oh gosh...that is so incredibly sad. :(

 

There has to be something that was going on...12 year olds don't just snap unless something is horribly wrong, or they're extremely mentally ill.

 

This. It can't all be happiness and sunshine if he snaps like that.

[Samiam]

Yes, regardless of what/where his education is, this is obviously deep mental anguish/illness. Very sad, but I hate that people will pull out the word "homeschool" from the story and jump all over that like that is the "cause" of his problems.

[LibraryLover]

How horrible. The poor kids who survivied...what will their lives be like now? It's another reminder of how we can never know for sure what goes on behind closed doors, or the pain children might be experieincing. Not even in families where things look 'perfectly normal'.

[Keniki]

I agree that it's terribly sad, and that something very serious had to be wrong.

 

Slightly OT, but he missed church on Sunday because of a school activity? This hits me as weird. They attended two church services each weekend, and they homeschooled. I'm missing something in this.

[Nestof3]

There really isn't much to go on to establish a motive. We cannot assume that his form of education or his lifestyle had anything to do with it. There is no indication that the kids were kept away from society, and we don't know who his friends are.

 

We don't know if he had been depressed. I have known people who showed no flashing signs of depression commit suicide. A child has all sorts of thoughts that he or she may or may not share with parents despite the fact that the parents think the relationship is great.

 

I wasn't comfortable sharing my thoughts with my parents, and I was public-schooled. I wasn't comfortable telling my parents what I did as a teenager. I think I have a far better relationship with my boys, but that is no guarantee that I will know everything they think and what they do when they are away from me.

 

I'm just saying that I hope people don't blame the parents without proof.

[LibraryLover]

I agree that it's terribly sad, and that something very serious had to be wrong.

 

Slightly OT, but he missed church on Sunday because of a school activity? This hits me as weird. They attended two church services each weekend, and they homeschooled. I'm missing something in this.

 

 

The may mean school to mean hs activity. You know, in the same way hsers here use the word school "We did school today before we left for swimming." ??

[Lara in Colo]

Slightly OT, but he missed church on Sunday because of a school activity? This hits me as weird. They attended two church services each weekend, and they homeschooled. I'm missing something in this.

 

I latched onto this as well, I find that a family that puts this much emphasis on church wouldn't put a school activity first. This seems to be an inconsistancy with the family pattern (as far as I can see a pattern).

 

Besides, what activity is on a Sunday that can't be moved?

 

Lara

[*Inna*]

:(

[BarbecueMom]

I latched onto this as well, I find that a family that puts this much emphasis on church wouldn't put a school activity first. This seems to be an inconsistancy with the family pattern (as far as I can see a pattern).

 

Besides, what activity is on a Sunday that can't be moved?

 

Lara

 

:iagree:

 

I hate reading too far into news articles, because it's like Cliff Notes written after a game of telephone with several pages missing, but something isn't right. I doubt the "school activity" existed.

[mom2denj]

This is so sad!!

[LittleIzumi]

Oh gosh...that is so incredibly sad. :(

 

There has to be something that was going on...12 year olds don't just snap unless something is horribly wrong, or they're extremely mentally ill.

:iagree::iagree: This happens in public school & home school, and there has to be an underlying cause somewhere.

[happi duck]

This is so sad.

Edited March 3, 2011 by happi duck

[Danestress]

Oh gosh...that is so incredibly sad. :(

 

There has to be something that was going on...12 year olds don't just snap unless something is horribly wrong, or they're extremely mentally ill.

 

and do stupid stuff. Things can seem 'horribly wrong' to them. Yes, shooting is pretty extreme, but he could be a pretty normal kid with an explosive temper and no truly extreme problems and still do a violent, impulsive thing. And spend a life regretting it. So sad.

 

To me, the big question is "who the heck leaves a gun where a 12 year old can get hold of it and fire it?"

[silliness7]

 

To me, the big question is "who the heck leaves a gun where a 12 year old can get hold of it and fire it?"

 

That's what I want to know. Seriously. I'm not anti-gun but that's just crazy. Very, very tragic. I feel awful for the family, friends and church community involved. Many prayers. :crying:

[jentancalann]

I heard about this yesterday from my friend who grew up in the same home town, same church, too, I believe. She left when the 12 yo was little so didn't know him personally, but said the family was a completely normal hs-ing family of 7 (whatever that is ;-)) She said she heard from folks back home who knew the boy that he was as sweet and as good natured as could be, and everyone is in total shock. I'm glad that the media is not focusing on the hs part.

 

Such a horrible tragedy.

Edited March 3, 2011 by jentancalann

[tricia]

So was he a homeschooler or not? Its not that it really matters but somewhere the facts are just not kosher.

[Nakia]

How terrible. So very sad. So many lives ruined.

[jentancalann]

So was he a homeschooler or not? Its not that it really matters but somewhere the facts are just not kosher.

 

 

Yes, they were all homeschooled according to someone who knew the family.

 

I should actually go read this thread to see where the discrepancy lies. I'm not sure what you're referring to.

[Word Nerd]

Horrible. I've been to that town many times.

[LibraryLover]

and do stupid stuff. Things can seem 'horribly wrong' to them. Yes, shooting is pretty extreme, but he could be a pretty normal kid with an explosive temper and no truly extreme problems and still do a violent, impulsive thing. And spend a life regretting it. So sad.

 

To me, the big question is "who the heck leaves a gun where a 12 year old can get hold of it and fire it?"

 

 

 

It's not merely 'impulusive' to kill your parents and your little sibs. My kids have never even punched each other. Lets not normalize murder. That kid was in grave pain.

Edited March 4, 2011 by LibraryLover

[dcurry]

I didn't read anywhere that it was the 12 year old who had done it- it just said he was in custody and there were no other suspects. He was the one who called 911. The younger kids could probably give some insight....

 

This is really sad. I hope they have family who will be able to take the younger children. Or at least someone in their church.

[Danestress]

Seriously, I don't want to normalize murder. And I wasn't attempting to.

 

What I was trying to say was that sometimes horrible, tragic things happen because of a sensitive or angry young man overreacts and doesn't fully appreciate the gravity of actions.

 

I guess I object to the broad assumption that if this kind of thing happened, the boy must have been dealing with sexual abuse or must have had a serious mental illness. I am not sure that is accurate, though I am by no means saying that this could happen in any family or any boy is capable of it.

[kalanamak]

Seriously, I don't want to normalize murder. And I wasn't attempting to.

 

What I was trying to say was that sometimes horrible, tragic things happen because of a sensitive or angry young man overreacts and doesn't fully appreciate the gravity of actions.

.

 

Murder, horrible as it is, is not a rare or unknown thing in humans, after all.

 

Sometimes I think I've grown more somber with age because of ever-deepening understanding of the gravity of actions. I certainly didn't do this at 12, but I certainly wouldn't have understood the full consequences. I don't know that I would understood at 30 all that I understand now.

 

(Flame suit on). I hope, if charged, he is tried as a minor. 12 is really, very, minor.

[LibraryLover]

Seriously, I don't want to normalize murder. And I wasn't attempting to.

 

What I was trying to say was that sometimes horrible, tragic things happen because of a sensitive or angry young man overreacts and doesn't fully appreciate the gravity of actions.

 

I guess I object to the broad assumption that if this kind of thing happened, the boy must have been dealing with sexual abuse or must have had a serious mental illness. I am not sure that is accurate, though I am by no means saying that this could happen in any family or any boy is capable of it.

 

 

I hope he is not tried as an adult. (IF he even did this!)

 

I didn't think Andrea Yates was in her right mind, either. More than a life sentence, she needed mental health services in a big way. But I am pretty much alone there.

 

I do think the brain of a child is a different animal.

 

However, a 12 year old shooting his parents to death, and taking several little sibs along the way is in need of tremendous help. Most 12 years old slam doors...they do not kill.

 

Something is very, very wrong, and I would not file this under simple impulsivity. You have to be out of your mind, or in unimaginable pain to pull the trigger on your mom and baby brother.

Edited March 4, 2011 by LibraryLover

[TXMary2]

I hope he is not tried as an adult.

 

I didn't think Andrea Yates was in her right mind, either. More than a life sentence, she needed mental health services in a big way. But I am pretty much alone there.

 

I do think the brain of a child is a different animal.

 

However, a 12 year old shooting his parents to death, and taking several little sibs along the way is in need of tremendous help. Most 12 years old slam doors...they do not kill.

 

Something is very, very wrong, and I would not file this under simple impulsivity. You have to be out of your mind, or in unimaginable pain to pull the trigger on your mom and baby brother.

 

 

I am with you an Andrea Yates. She needed help - she had postpartum that was never treated and it was exacerbated by more pregnancies. Her mind broke. Now that she is medicated properly she knows what she did and is in emotional pain that the meds can't take away. Sad.

[unsinkable]

I hope he is not tried as an adult. (IF he even did this!)

 

I didn't think Andrea Yates was in her right mind, either. More than a life sentence, she needed mental health services in a big way. But I am pretty much alone there.

 

I do think the brain of a child is a different animal.

 

However, a 12 year old shooting his parents to death, and taking several little sibs along the way is in need of tremendous help. Most 12 years old slam doors...they do not kill.

 

Something is very, very wrong, and I would not file this under simple impulsivity. You have to be out of your mind, or in unimaginable pain to pull the trigger on your mom and baby brother.

 

I'll stand with you, LL...I agree with you about Andrea Yates and with your speculations about the 12 yo.

 

(And of course, we're all just speculating right now.)

[Nakia]

I am with you an Andrea Yates. She needed help - she had postpartum that was never treated and it was exacerbated by more pregnancies. Her mind broke. Now that she is medicated properly she knows what she did and is in emotional pain that the meds can't take away. Sad.

 

I could not agree more. So very sad.

[BlsdMama]

and do stupid stuff. Things can seem 'horribly wrong' to them. Yes, shooting is pretty extreme, but he could be a pretty normal kid with an explosive temper and no truly extreme problems and still do a violent, impulsive thing. And spend a life regretting it. So sad.

 

To me, the big question is "who the heck leaves a gun where a 12 year old can get hold of it and fire it?"

 

I agree with you completely on the first part. A 12 year old could lose his temper and do something stupid, impulsive, and not realize it's permanent and forever. :(

 

On the gun control though - a locked gun, a trigger lock, ammunition locked in a separate area... If the family hunts, a 12 year old boy would know how to find all the separate parts, remove the lock, and put it all together. My 11yo son could unlock a gun, remove a trigger lock, and load a gun if he knew where all three keys were.

 

This is horrible and so unbelievably sad. One rash moment, one flare of anger, and so many lives ruined... The parents, the 12yo boy, the little kids' lives from being shot by their brother & losing their parents, the older sibs... Everyone's. :(

[Joanne]

I didn't think Andrea Yates was in her right mind, either. More than a life sentence, she needed mental health services in a big way. But I am pretty much alone there.

 

.

 

This is very "real" in our masters program; it being a mental health issue and our institution being in Texas. The Yates case comes up in some form during the course of most classes. Most professors tend to agree with you.

 

In fact, I would personally take it even further. I'd say Rusty was more responsible (and his mom, and possibly some of the medical staff) in not getting her the help (or, at least, constant supervision) she needed. She was not in her right mind. They *were*.

[fairfarmhand]

This is very "real" in our masters program; it being a mental health issue and our institution being in Texas. The Yates case comes up in some form during the course of most classes. Most professors tend to agree with you.

 

In fact, I would personally take it even further. I'd say Rusty was more responsible (and his mom, and possibly some of the medical staff) in not getting her the help (or, at least, constant supervision) she needed. She was not in her right mind. They *were*.

 

 

so sad and so true.

 

Horribly, they have to remember this day by day.

[jentancalann]

On the gun control though - a locked gun, a trigger lock, ammunition locked in a separate area... If the family hunts, a 12 year old boy would know how to find all the separate parts, remove the lock, and put it all together. My 11yo son could unlock a gun, remove a trigger lock, and load a gun if he knew where all three keys were.

 

 

 

yep. my husband and son hunt and participate in a shooting sport and ds12 could totally do all that in a minute.

[AuntieM]

This is very "real" in our masters program; it being a mental health issue and our institution being in Texas. The Yates case comes up in some form during the course of most classes. Most professors tend to agree with you.

 

In fact, I would personally take it even further. I'd say Rusty was more responsible (and his mom, and possibly some of the medical staff) in not getting her the help (or, at least, constant supervision) she needed. She was not in her right mind. They *were*.

 

:iagree:

 

I always felt that her husband needed to face charges of neglect. In fact, wasn't there talk of this during the high point of the proceedings againt Andrea? I lost track of the case and the details, but I do seem to remember this being discussed. Did he never get called on the carpet?

[kalanamak]

I hope he is not tried as an adult. (IF he even did this!)

 

 

He appears to be being charged as a minor. Little sister (stabbed) is out of ICU, brother (shot and stabbed) in ICU but better.

[TXMary2]

:iagree:

 

I always felt that her husband needed to face charges of neglect. In fact, wasn't there talk of this during the high point of the proceedings againt Andrea? I lost track of the case and the details, but I do seem to remember this being discussed. Did he never get called on the carpet?

 

 

He never faced official charges, but he was beat up pretty good by the media and others. I think he should have done more, but I can give him the benefit of doubt because he was overwhelmed with feeling responsible for taking care of his family, he was kind of clueless, trying to pray it away, trusted her and he did enlist the help of family to relieve some of her stress. He did know she shouldn't be alone and that is why he arranged for his mother to be there on that fateful day - his fatal mistake was not waiting for the mother to arrive. He should have gone in to work late, but some men just don't consider that when they have financial pressures.

 

All that said, I don't really like him and it irritates me that he has simply moved on with his life and remarried. I guess he can't really be faulted for that, but I do tend to think "Whatever happened to 'for better or for worse'?"

[Danestress]

yep. my husband and son hunt and participate in a shooting sport and ds12 could totally do all that in a minute.

 

I know a lot of kids who could do that, but their parents keep the guns locked up when they aren't being used to hunt. I don't know of anyone who leaves the guns available to children. Isn't it just a basic safety precaution to lock up guns? Even if you trust the 12 year old and his friends, if you are robbed, you don't want guns out.

[Mergath]

He never faced official charges, but he was beat up pretty good by the media and others. I think he should have done more, but I can give him the benefit of doubt because he was overwhelmed with feeling responsible for taking care of his family, he was kind of clueless, trying to pray it away, trusted her and he did enlist the help of family to relieve some of her stress. He did know she shouldn't be alone and that is why he arranged for his mother to be there on that fateful day - his fatal mistake was not waiting for the mother to arrive. He should have gone in to work late, but some men just don't consider that when they have financial pressures.

 

All that said, I don't really like him and it irritates me that he has simply moved on with his life and remarried. I guess he can't really be faulted for that, but I do tend to think "Whatever happened to 'for better or for worse'?"

 

I think he should be in prison.

 

I had ppd and ppocd after my dd was born. Mine got to the point where I was hallucinating and ended up in the emergency room because I couldn't tell what was real and what wasn't. It was bad. And my dh, who at the time was drinking heavily and not being medicated for his bipolar disorder, could tell it was bad. Even through all his issues, he could see quite clearly that I was borderline insane and made me get help.

 

From what I've read of Andrea Yates's husband, he was completely negligent and should have been charged with, well, something.

[asta]

Not to go completely off track, but AY has things going on beyond post partum depression. eg: yes, she suffered pp depression, but she also suffers baseline mental illness. Simply treating the pp didn't make her "better", it just treated the pp.

 

My beloved (late) neurologist was also a neuropsychologist and was the one who examined her and testified at her trial. He said she was truly someone to study (like Joanne does in her classes).

 

Personally, although I think her ex is a head case, AY's illness is far beyond anything he personally could have made heads or tails of. They were probably a perfect storm of dysfunction together.

 

 

asta

[Word Nerd]

Regarding the comments made earlier about their missing Sunday church, it sounds like they attended more than one church, but Seventh Day Adventists have church on Saturday, not Sunday. They may not have considered going to church on Sunday as important as Saturday attendance.

Edited March 5, 2011 by WordGirl

[Nakia]

Not to go completely off track, but AY has things going on beyond post partum depression. eg: yes, she suffered pp depression, but she also suffers baseline mental illness. Simply treating the pp didn't make her "better", it just treated the pp.

 

My beloved (late) neurologist was also a neuropsychologist and was the one who examined her and testified at her trial. He said she was truly someone to study (like Joanne does in her classes).

 

Personally, although I think her ex is a head case, AY's illness is far beyond anything he personally could have made heads or tails of. They were probably a perfect storm of dysfunction together.

 

 

asta

 

So very tragic. That situation is quite possibly the saddest thing I have ever heard.

[Nestof3]

In all seriousness, how do you make someone get help? My sil is worried about her dil b/c she is not taking her mess for bipolarism. Dil is overwhelmed with her parenting, and my sil is worried the child is being neglected.

 

I think he should be in prison.

 

I had ppd and ppocd after my dd was born. Mine got to the point where I was hallucinating and ended up in the emergency room because I couldn't tell what was real and what wasn't. It was bad. And my dh, who at the time was drinking heavily and not being medicated for his bipolar disorder, could tell it was bad. Even through all his issues, he could see quite clearly that I was borderline insane and made me get help.

 

From what I've read of Andrea Yates's husband, he was completely negligent and should have been charged with, well, something.

[Joanne]

In all seriousness, how do you make someone get help? My sil is worried about her dil b/c she is not taking her mess for bipolarism. Dil is overwhelmed with her parenting, and my sil is worried the child is being neglected.

 

You can't in most cases. If un/undertreated mental illness is putting children at risk, your choices are often limited to reporting them.

 

In the case of Andrea Yates, she was under medical care, which, with the active and HEALTHY involvement of Rusty and his mom, could have been structured in a way to make sure she was not alone with the kids.

[kalanamak]

In all seriousness, how do you make someone get help? .

 

Stop impregnating her, at least.

 

I agree with the perfect storm.