Socialization

[KidsHappen]

I am going to agree with Jean, because if I totally agree with pqr again this week universes might collide.

 

 

I know. I just agreed with him for the first time ever I think and I think I may have felt a small quiver in the fabric of the universe. ;)

[Guest adamb924]

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What are your children's ages and are they currently attending any type of traditional educational classes?

 

 

5, 3, and 6 mos. My 5-year-old is in kindergarten in a private Christian school.

 

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What would be different if someone is naturally social or naturally awkward. Does traditional education classroom help?

 

 

I definitely think that social exposure helps. There are studies linking the amount of verbal input children get to their intelligence. I cannot help but assume that much the same situation obtains for developing social skills. Of course, we could argue all day about what level of "filtering" is helpful for social development, and at what ages. But to me, to say that my son will learn whatever social skills he needs in the home environment, is to surrender him to whatever innate social capacity has has (not much).

 

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We that have homeschooling for a very long time just really are tired of the "socialization argument" Sorry but there just freaky, ill mannered, socially awkward people, you and I and everyone else has worked with or attended classes with them and guess what none of them were home schooled.

 

 

This is what makes it hard to tell why these kids are weird. Homeschooling is much more mainstream than it was when I was growing up (I'm 28). I'm sure in the past it was much more the domain of... extreme... personalities -- not entirely, but in large part. So are today's weird homeschooled adults socially awkward because they're homeschooled, or because they have socially awkward parents?

 

.

Your initial statement sounds more like a troll and your second one still has not convince me of your sincerity regarding home school.

 

I would perceive from your initial provocative statement that you are one of those awkward, rude, know-it-all properly socialized adult that others want to avoid at the party

 

So if you are troll I really did wast some of my "socializing time"

 

If you aren't a troll then your "posting style" sucks:001_smile:

 

I don't get invited to many parties, so it's hard to comment.

 

My concern is sincere, since I don't know what our schooling options will be in the next several years. Genuinely, I don't want my kids learning to interact with other people starting in college, and I don't want them to be attached to our nuclear family beyond what is healthy for them. (The latter issue is what I have seen up-close, and it strikes terror into my heart to imagine my sons not being able to function outside of our home.)

 

Frankly, this is such an elephant-in-the-room issue I don't know whether anything would be gained by using excessive tact in raising the subject. Is there a polite way to ask, "Do you think you're screwing up your kids?"? Well, perhaps. There's probably merit in stirring the hive enough to get past what seem to be the typical (throwaway) answers: "I don't want my kid socialized into sin" and "He socializes just fine with adults" and the like.

 

Adam

[KidsHappen]

I would be a little surprised if a post about a true non-issue generated 33 replies in less than 24 hours. Adam

 

That is relatively few replies. Now, a thread about crockpots, shopping carts or shoes can garner up to a couple hundred replies. :D

[Rosie_0801]

But you talk to some kids and the smallest thing sends them off rambling, apropos to nothing, about constitutional law or whatever. It's neat that they can talk about constitutional law, but if they don't know how to have a normal conversation, then that's a problem.

 

Oh for goodness sakes. I was that obnoxious as a child and I wasn't homeschooled. Plenty of people still think I'm that obnoxious and to be honest, I think a lot of other people are for the same reasons. That has nothing to do with schooling and more to do with people being human and it is quite natural for people to be more interested in their own hobbies than hobbies they don't have!

 

A wonderful thing about growing up is being allowed out into the world to find other people who are happy to talk about your weird hobby because they also share it. Homeschoolers are "lucky" because they don't have to wait until they're 19.

 

Maybe kids who are waffling on about this and that just want to be listened to. Maybe they are inviting you into their little world. Most of them will learn to be a little more graceful about it :)

 

Personally I'd like to see the Australian government filled with homeschool graduates. I'm almost certain they could conduct Question Time in a more civilised and witty manner.

 

But to me, to say that my son will learn whatever social skills he needs in the home environment, is to surrender him to whatever innate social capacity has has (not much).

 

That would only be correct if your son had useless parents. If you've bothered to show up here and converse, the chances are you have a relationship with your children and spend time talking to them and taking them places.

 

So are today's weird homeschooled adults socially awkward because they're homeschooled, or because they have socially awkward parents?

We haven't met these people so we can only guess.

 

~Some homeschooled people will be socially awkward because their parents did them a disservice.

This is not a problem for you if you determine to do your best. If you've shown up here, chances are your best will be a pretty good job.

 

~Some homeschooled people will be socially awkward because they have socially awkward parents.

This is not a problem for you if you are not socially awkward. If you are, then you have the perspective required to make that bit of extra effort with your kids.

 

~Some homeschooled people will be socially awkward because they have Aspergers Syndrome or something.

This is not a problem for you if your children don't have any of those conditions. If they do, then you already know that socially awkward is the way things will be, and you'll work to make sure they are less awkward rather than more.

 

~Some homeschooled people will be socially awkward because they are geeks and like to be that way.

This is not a problem you can cure. Any attempt to make a geek play football will end in disaster; probably elf ears. Rest assured there are many geeks around and your geek will find a nice geek to settle down and produce more geeks with.

 

Frankly, this is such an elephant-in-the-room issue I don't know whether anything would be gained by using excessive tact in raising the subject. Is there a polite way to ask, "Do you think you're screwing up your kids?"? Well, perhaps. There's probably merit in stirring the hive enough to get past what seem to be the typical (throwaway) answers: "I don't want my kid socialized into sin" and "He socializes just fine with adults" and the like.

Lol, how many people would put this much effort into screwing their kids up? And as for throwaway answers, what do you consider an acceptable reason for disagreeing that socialization is a problem? Why is "No, I have ample evidence that my children are as civilised as can be expected for this stage of their development" a bad answer?

 

Look. If you have faith that you and your wife are not complete idiots, then you will do just fine if you choose homeschooling. If you trust that you are both capable of seeking answers to any problems you have, you will do just fine. You will graduate your kids wishing you'd done some things differently, but life is like that. 20/20 vision only comes with hindsight.

 

We can't come here aiming for our children to be the paragons of academic and social achievement. The material we have to work with is as human as we are ;) All we can do is our best, and people are here because they want their best to be an informed best, rather than their natural default. If this topic means that much to you, then you are certainly capable of doing your best.

 

Rosie

Edited February 28, 2011 by Rosie_0801

[Ibbygirl]

Is there a polite way to ask, "Do you think you're screwing up your kids?"?

 

Adam

 

Perhaps not, but I will answer your question just the same. No. I don't.

 

In looking for opinions I really don't know how any answer will satisfy you since it will all be anecdotal. It seems to me that you are seeking some kind of definitive proof or scientifically based statistics or something. In that case you might do better to read a report or study on the subject rather than asking anecdotal opinions. I hope that helps. :)

[Mrs Mungo]

I know. I just agreed with him for the first time ever I think and I think I may have felt a small quiver in the fabric of the universe. ;)

 

Third time this week for me!

 

As an aside, the only real social issue we have is that people don't always understand our Halloween costumes. ;)

[Mrs Mungo]

Oh for goodness sakes. I was that obnoxious as a child and I wasn't homeschooled. Plenty of people still think I'm that obnoxious and to be honest, I think a lot of other people are for the same reasons. That has nothing to do with schooling and more to do with people being human and it is quite natural for people to be more interested in their own hobbies than hobbies they don't have.

 

A wonderful thing about growing up is being allowed out into the world to find other people who are happy to talk about your weird hobby because they also share it. Homeschoolers are "lucky" because they don't have to wait until they're 19.

 

Maybe kids who are waffling on about this and that just want to be listened to. Maybe they are inviting you into their little world. Hey, adults do that too.

 

Personally I'd like to see the Australian government filled with homeschool graduates. I'm almost certain they could conduct Question Time in a more civilised and witty manner.

 

Rosie

 

Hm, this post combined with the Oscars gave me an idea. Didn't Mr. Darcy and Mr. Wickham have the same schooling? There is only so much one can do to compensate for personality.

[Ibbygirl]

Hm, this post combined with the Oscars gave me an idea. Didn't Mr. Darcy and Mr. Wickham have the same schooling? There is only so much one can do to compensate for personality.

 

Very good point Mrs. Mungo. :) Although I think in that day they considered it a matter of breeding. Like with dogs or horses. I recollect one of Mr. Bingley's sisters commenting to Elizabeth about Wickham's father being only Mr. Darcy's steward and "considering his descent one could hardly expect much better" or something to that effect. I would agree more with your point than it being chocked up to breeding although I do believe genes have something to do with it also. :) Nevermind. I think it's too late for me to be trying to speak coherently and I'm being about as clear as mud. :tongue_smilie:

Edited February 28, 2011 by Ibbygirl

[Ibbygirl]

 

~Some homeschooled people will be socially awkward because they are geeks and like to be that way.

This is not a problem you can cure. Any attempt to make a geek play football will end in disaster; probably elf ears. Rest assured there are many geeks around and your geek will find a nice geek to settle down and produce more geeks with.

 

:smilielol5::lol::lol:

 

 

Lol, how many people would put this much effort into screwing their kids up? And as for throwaway answers, what do you consider an acceptable reason for disagreeing that socialization is a problem? Why is "No, I have ample evidence that my children are as civilised as can be expected for this stage of their development" a bad answer?

 

Look. If you have faith that you and your wife are not complete idiots, then you will do just fine if you choose homeschooling. If you trust that you are both capable of seeking answers to any problems you have, you will do just fine. You will graduate your kids wishing you'd done some things differently, but life is like that. 20/20 vision only comes with hindsight.

 

We can't come here aiming for our children to be the paragons of academic and social achievement. The material we have to work with is as human as we are ;) All we can do is our best, and people are here because they want their best to be an informed best, rather than their natural default. If this topic means that much to you, then you are certainly capable of doing your best.

 

Rosie

 

:iagree: Rosie, you really should be President! :hurray: :party:

[KidsHappen]

~Some homeschooled people will be socially awkward because they are geeks and like to be that way.

This is not a problem you can cure. Any attempt to make a geek play football will end in disaster; probably elf ears. Rest assured there are many geeks around and your geek will find a nice geek to settle down and produce more geeks with. Rosie

 

:lol: Oh Rosie, I love you. You are the best. You always make me laugh. :lol:

[missesd]

What if "socialization" leads to low self-esteem?? There are some that are just introverted. They will always be shy, a little different, they don't fit in with the "mainstream". I have a 15 yr old daughter. She has been public schooled almost all her life. But when she started spending her lunches alone, at a table, awkward and embarrassed... that hurt both her and me. So she was not all about boys, she could take or leave make up, and clothes to her were jeans and a comfy tee... what is so wrong with that?? Not a **** thing. She doesn't cuss, smoke, and she's never even kissed a boy. But sadly, by today's public school standards, that's almost an atrocity. It's certainly an anomaly in *most* schools. Why should she feel bad about who she is? because she's different? She may be different then them, but she's not different in a bad way. She is a good girl, with a sweet heart, and to see it get crushed all in the name of "socialization" would be disservice to the future of those she may come in contact with. Here, we love her just the same. She can read classics in her PJ's, with her hair in some messy bun, and not a shred of make-up to be seen. We accept her the way she is and love her all the more for it.

 

Socialization here isn't the issue, it's "mainstream", and not everyone is. I want my children to be celebrated for who they are, unafraid to be themselves. And to be PROUD of themselves. I do not want them to try and fit themselves into a box. And then agonize and wonder what's wrong with THEM, when they can not. Everyone marches to their own tune, and some people walk down the road a little sideways... there is nothing wrong with that. I want to teach them empathy, and tolerance for personality differences and learn how to bridge those gaps... not make someone sit alone, by themselves, at lunch because of it.

 

*DISCLAIMER: I do NOT give my permission to be quoted outside of The Well Trained Mind forum. If you desire to quote me, you must use my remarks in their entirety, and you must obtain my express written permission. Thank you....

Edited February 28, 2011 by missesd

[Rosy]

I definitely think that social exposure helps. There are studies linking the amount of verbal input children get to their intelligence. I cannot help but assume that much the same situation obtains for developing social skills. Of course, we could argue all day about what level of "filtering" is helpful for social development, and at what ages. But to me, to say that my son will learn whatever social skills he needs in the home environment, is to surrender him to whatever innate social capacity has has (not much).

Really? So your son innately knows to listen to and respect adults, to share his toys, to talk about his feelings with out screaming? If he's not socially better off now than he was at birth, I can see why you'd doubt your ability and that of your wife to socialize him.

 

I don't get invited to many parties, so it's hard to comment.

I'm going to pass right over that one. :P

 

My concern is sincere, since I don't know what our schooling options will be in the next several years. Genuinely, I don't want my kids learning to interact with other people starting in college, and I don't want them to be attached to our nuclear family beyond what is healthy for them. (The latter issue is what I have seen up-close, and it strikes terror into my heart to imagine my sons not being able to function outside of our home.)

 

Frankly, this is such an elephant-in-the-room issue I don't know whether anything would be gained by using excessive tact in raising the subject. Is there a polite way to ask, "Do you think you're screwing up your kids?"? Well, perhaps. There's probably merit in stirring the hive enough to get past what seem to be the typical (throwaway) answers: "I don't want my kid socialized into sin" and "He socializes just fine with adults" and the like.

 

I would be much more concerned about the effect of being raised by someone who walks into social situations he knows nothing about, throwing out offensive comments and making assumptions, rather than coming in as a learner and setting aside opinions to ask questions respectfully. Especially when those you're questioning are more experienced as parents--some of whom have raised kids who are your age. And when a quick perusal of recent board topics (or a simple search) would answer many of your questions.

 

Definitions: I can't give a rigorous definition, and of course no one can. The mother who wrote about the child who spoke out of turn and went off on tangents hit the nail on the head. (And since she is aware of the problem I'm sure she will be able to deal with it successfully.) But you talk to some kids and the smallest thing sends them off rambling, apropos to nothing, about constitutional law or whatever. It's neat that they can talk about constitutional law, but if they don't know how to have a normal conversation, then that's a problem. They don't know how to talk to people who don't agree with them. They don't know not to start a formal debate without consent from the other party. It's disingenuous to deny the existence of these people, particularly if you're all involved in co-ops and social groups and can see it in other peoples' kids. (Though I don't believe that anyone who denied the existence of a socialization problem/hurdle also mentioned that their children participated in these groups. Perhaps that's just a coincidence.)

 

The social skills you mentioned are important. Yes, I do know kids like that (not in my co-op as much, but I do know them). I also knew kids like that in school. I would guess the percentage is about the same, but I don't know for sure. But I would say that the situations that lend themselves to differing social expressions are the ones that allow people to achieve things socially, professionally, academically, etc. that few people will. One of the most socially awkward homeschooled kids I've ever met has become the godfather of my kids--he is still different, but he has learned how to have more "normal" and "non-awkward" conversations with people and is one of the most engaged and caring people I've ever met. Another homeschooled kid that I know recently finished coordinating a wonderfully entertaining dinner theater for close to 200 people to raise money for starving kids in Africa. He oversaw the creation of an original script with over 20 actors singing, dancing and acting, as well as a wonderful dinner and dessert auction that brought in thousands of $$. I don't think he brought up constitutional law once during that time--he did manage the activities of close to 50 people though--kitchen staff, performers, technical help--ranging in age from 12 to 60. Oh yeah, he's 19 years old.

 

What's my point? You have to decide what your social goals are for your kids. Do you want kids who fit in well with other kids and become adults that fit in with other adults? (And does public school truly produce that?) Or do you want something more--kids who think of others first, know how their unique gifts and personalities equip them for a meaningful life, are sensitive to others but make their decisions based on what is right, wise, etc. I'm not saying schooled kids can't learn these things, I'm saying that the "socialization" one gets from learning to be like everyone else can hinder one's ability to do and be something better.

[Rosy]

Also, since you don't know any of us in real life, you have no way of knowing if our kids are normal or not. If you're considering homeschooling as a possibility for your family and you are concerned about socialization, you might consider meeting some actual homeschooling families, talk to the families whose kids aren't weird and find out what they're doing.

 

In the meantime, this video might help:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQoSRfu5z_4

[Mama Geek]

5, 3, and 6 mos. My 5-year-old is in kindergarten in a private Christian school.

 

 

 

I definitely think that social exposure helps. There are studies linking the amount of verbal input children get to their intelligence. I cannot help but assume that much the same situation obtains for developing social skills. Of course, we could argue all day about what level of "filtering" is helpful for social development, and at what ages. But to me, to say that my son will learn whatever social skills he needs in the home environment, is to surrender him to whatever innate social capacity has has (not much).

 

 

 

This is what makes it hard to tell why these kids are weird. Homeschooling is much more mainstream than it was when I was growing up (I'm 28). I'm sure in the past it was much more the domain of... extreme... personalities -- not entirely, but in large part. So are today's weird homeschooled adults socially awkward because they're homeschooled, or because they have socially awkward parents?

 

 

 

I don't get invited to many parties, so it's hard to comment.

 

My concern is sincere, since I don't know what our schooling options will be in the next several years. Genuinely, I don't want my kids learning to interact with other people starting in college, and I don't want them to be attached to our nuclear family beyond what is healthy for them. (The latter issue is what I have seen up-close, and it strikes terror into my heart to imagine my sons not being able to function outside of our home.)

 

Frankly, this is such an elephant-in-the-room issue I don't know whether anything would be gained by using excessive tact in raising the subject. Is there a polite way to ask, "Do you think you're screwing up your kids?"? Well, perhaps. There's probably merit in stirring the hive enough to get past what seem to be the typical (throwaway) answers: "I don't want my kid socialized into sin" and "He socializes just fine with adults" and the like.

 

Adam

 

Why have you come to a homeschooling forum with your mind already made up that home schooled kids aren't socialized? Are you figuring that you may end up having to homeschool and are trying to put aside your concerns? I know there are people here who after school or who now have some or all of their kids in public or private school but most have a real interest in home schooling and don't see it as a detriment.

 

As for public school kids being well socialized, it is bs. I went through 12 years of public school and never fit in with kids my age. I did have a few close friends (usually because we went to church together or our parents were friends), but I in general hated the "socialization" aspect of school. I enjoyed being around adults and younger kids. I didn't do the parties, sports, prom, I didn't go to football games more than a time or 2. Once I got into college it was much easier and has been ever since.

[Peela]

Adam, did you truly come here hoping for some genuine responses with an open mind, or is your wife perhaps trying to convince you to homeschool and you are here to prove to her that its not a valid option?

 

Are you feeling anxious that your child/ren might turn out like some example of a socially inept homeschooler you have met? Do you need some reassurance that that would not happen to your children?

 

Or have you already made up your mind and are here to try and prove something?

[nono]

But to me, to say that my son will learn whatever social skills he needs in the home environment, is to surrender him to whatever innate social capacity has has (not much).

 

 

So, you guys just sit around and ignore him when he's home? And, by extension, thats what you think you'd do if you were homeschooling? :confused:

 

There's no gun to your head saying to homeschool. So, don't do it, if you feel like you and your wife are incapable of socializing your son.

[Guest CarolineUK]

Adam, did you truly come here hoping for some genuine responses with an open mind, or is your wife perhaps trying to convince you to homeschool and you are here to prove to her that its not a valid option?

 

Are you feeling anxious that your child/ren might turn out like some example of a socially inept homeschooler you have met? Do you need some reassurance that that would not happen to your children?

 

Or have you already made up your mind and are here to try and prove something?

 

Yes, that's exactly what was going through my mind.

[nono]

:iagree:

 

Apparently I'm not a real person, nor my husband. My poor kids are living with a couple of robots.

 

 

:banghead: Now you have me contemplating if I can teach everything today in "robot." Thanks....

 

;)

[Renee in NC]

5, 3, and 6 mos. My 5-year-old is in kindergarten in a private Christian school.

 

I definitely think that social exposure helps. There are studies linking the amount of verbal input children get to their intelligence. I cannot help but assume that much the same situation obtains for developing social skills. Of course, we could argue all day about what level of "filtering" is helpful for social development, and at what ages. But to me, to say that my son will learn whatever social skills he needs in the home environment, is to surrender him to whatever innate social capacity has has (not much).

 

This is what makes it hard to tell why these kids are weird. Homeschooling is much more mainstream than it was when I was growing up (I'm 28). I'm sure in the past it was much more the domain of... extreme... personalities -- not entirely, but in large part. So are today's weird homeschooled adults socially awkward because they're homeschooled, or because they have socially awkward parents?

 

I don't get invited to many parties, so it's hard to comment.

 

My concern is sincere, since I don't know what our schooling options will be in the next several years. Genuinely, I don't want my kids learning to interact with other people starting in college, and I don't want them to be attached to our nuclear family beyond what is healthy for them. (The latter issue is what I have seen up-close, and it strikes terror into my heart to imagine my sons not being able to function outside of our home.)

 

Frankly, this is such an elephant-in-the-room issue I don't know whether anything would be gained by using excessive tact in raising the subject. Is there a polite way to ask, "Do you think you're screwing up your kids?"? Well, perhaps. There's probably merit in stirring the hive enough to get past what seem to be the typical (throwaway) answers: "I don't want my kid socialized into sin" and "He socializes just fine with adults" and the like.

 

Adam

 

First of all, in regards to the bolded---->:lol:

 

How about I give you a middle of the road answer? I am going to assume (since you have come back to post and give more detail) that you are not a troll. And, if you are an author looking for quotes, you may only use my remarks in their entirety and with my express permission. Did I cover all my legal bases? RC, can you help me out here?:D

 

We homeschooled for 7 years - my youngest 6 never went to school during that time. This past fall, my 3 elementary kids went to school and my now 13yo went to middle school in January. So, we have been on both sides of the fence.

 

I have learned some things. My 13yo is a self-proclaimed "nerd" in his school, though he most likely wouldn't be in a different location. He has learned in the past 7 weeks that most middle school kids act like idiots. He's learned that friendship is fleeting - he had a best friend in the neighborhood before he went to school and that friendship ended when another kid (a "cool" kid) decided my ds's other friend was a nerd, so therefore my ds is too. Really, instead of retreating and joining the "cool kid" (as most kids would and his best friend *did*), my ds stood up for his friend and ended the friendship. He doesn't really care - he knows that when people grow up they end up working for the nerds.:lol:;) He also got a crash course in sex, drugs, and assault, though this is a good school in an affluent area.

 

Has he learned anything positive? Yes, I am sure he has. I am sitting here thinking what has changed for the better. He actually has been bullied LESS in school than he was as a homeschooler! I learned he is an extrovert and craves a set of friends that he can get together with on a regular basis in various activities. He learned that there can be consequences for doing the right thing (standing up for his friend.) He learned to talk less and listen more - that you join a conversation, not start your own.

 

For the younger children, the results are mixed. My 10yo, under different circumstances, would be a target for bullying. He has a multitude of issues that cause him to place at a 1st grade level academically (he's in the 3rd grade in school - mainstreamed.) However, he is 5 feet tall and in his words, "Mama, no one is going to pick on me - I could squish them!" BUT, he does feel very self-concious about his LDs and therefore has few friends except for one boy from Egypt who is returning there this week. I don't think he was "properly socialized" either due to his recent transfer to this country, so maybe that is why they get along.;)

 

The 8yo is extremely extroverted and I will work much, much harder to get him out in the world. He also blossomed being separate from the 10yo - since they have always been at a similar developmental level, we "grouped them" too much. They are still close, but the separation has really allowed my 8yo to be his own person with his own talents, likes, dislikes, etc. He has become more annoying towards older kids since he has started school, but that could also be his age. When we return to homeschooling, I will work hard to make sure he isn't getting "lumped in."

 

My 6yo girl is really introverted and school socialization really exhausts her. Little girls are catty, even in the 1st grade. She really doesn't like school and is glad we are leaving. I think for her it is just a personality issue, not a homeschool vs. school issue. She is the "brainiac" one and prefers reading to socializing - much like her mama.:D

 

So, does that address your question, or is it irrelevent? I don't think I "screwed up my kids" because overall their adjustment was fairly easy. Maybe my kids are different because they have had interaction with a wide variety of people - children and adults alike. Maybe they're not so different and most kids adjust with few problems. I don't think any of us can deny that we've know "weird" homeschooled kids, but we've also known "weird" ps kids. A lot of the "weirdness" is just personality and circumstances. Being a "poor" kid in a relatively affluent area is difficult, whether the child is homeschooled or not.

Edited February 28, 2011 by Renee in FL

[MomOfOneFunOne]

:D:D:D

 

:lol::lol::lol: oops that was re Mrs. Mungo's stick poking socialization ref.

[Jennifer3141]

I'm still tyring to wrap my head around the idea that anyone thinks the "socialization" we have out there is working for much of the population. Really? :confused:

[pdalley]

 

 

This is what makes it hard to tell why these kids are weird. Homeschooling is much more mainstream than it was when I was growing up (I'm 28). I'm sure in the past it was much more the domain of... extreme... personalities -- not entirely, but in large part. So are today's weird homeschooled adults socially awkward because they're homeschooled, or because they have socially awkward parents?

 

 

 

 

My concern is sincere, since I don't know what our schooling options will be in the next several years. Genuinely, I don't want my kids learning to interact with other people starting in college, and I don't want them to be attached to our nuclear family beyond what is healthy for them. (The latter issue is what I have seen up-close, and it strikes terror into my heart to imagine my sons not being able to function outside of our home.)

 

Frankly, this is such an elephant-in-the-room issue I don't know whether anything would be gained by using excessive tact in raising the subject. Is there a polite way to ask, "Do you think you're screwing up your kids?"? Well, perhaps. There's probably merit in stirring the hive enough to get past what seem to be the typical (throwaway) answers: "I don't want my kid socialized into sin" and "He socializes just fine with adults" and the like.

 

Adam

 

Uh... Did you miss that my kids were born with social deficits? They they were in public school previously and actually have more friends and socialize more now that they are out of school?

 

And who gets to define what a 'healthy' attachment to the nuclear family is? I'd rather my kids be attached to myself, my husband and our extended family - who love and care about them - than a bunch of people who will throw them over when the next best thing comes along. I don't get how that is unhealthy. I don't teach them to hate people not like them - if anything it's the opposite. They are taught that people are all different - which is better than they got in school where they were told they had to conform.

 

And my kids don't just socialize with adults - they socialize with everybody. Younger, same age peers, teenagers, young adults, middle aged adults, senior citizens and my 87 year old grandmother.

 

Pretty wide range considering....

 

I don't care if people think I am screwing up my kids. They will be independent adults. In order to do that they will need to socialize.

 

Now perhaps you can explain where in their adult lives they will be 8 hours a day with their same age peers in a forced setting and how that will benefit them in their adult life I'm all ears. When I was in the workplace I worked with all ages, shapes and sizes. Not my same age peers.

 

For what it's worth.... I was raised by a single mother, went to public school for 12 years. I 'socialized' quite a bit - thought my mother was an idiot - my peers were brilliant, etc. I was bullied constantly through school. Taken advantage of because I was naive, thought the world owed me something.

 

It wasn't until I was almost thirty before I got my head on straight. I want better for my kids.

 

Edited to Add:

And, to copy another poster, I do NOT give my permission to be quoted outside of WTM. If you desire to quote me, you must obtain my express written permission.

 

Me too.

Edited February 28, 2011 by pdalley
Wanted to add quoting

[8circles]

.

 

What are your children's ages and are they currently attending any type of traditional educational classes?

 

What would be different if someone is naturally social or naturally awkward. Does traditional education classroom help?

 

We that have homeschooling for a very long time just really are tired of the "socialization argument" Sorry but there just freaky, ill mannered, socially awkward people, you and I and everyone else has worked with or attended classes with them and guess what none of them were home schooled.

 

Your initial statement sounds more like a troll and your second one still has not convince me of your sincerity regarding home school.

 

I would perceive from your initial provocative statement that you are one of those awkward, rude, know-it-all properly socialized adult that others want to avoid at the party

 

So if you are troll I really did wast some of my "socializing time"

 

If you aren't a troll then your "posting style" sucks:001_smile:

 

:iagree:

[8circles]

The mother who wrote about the child who spoke out of turn and went off on tangents hit the nail on the head. (And since she is aware of the problem I'm sure she will be able to deal with it successfully.) But you talk to some kids and the smallest thing sends them off rambling, apropos to nothing, about constitutional law or whatever. It's neat that they can talk about constitutional law, but if they don't know how to have a normal conversation, then that's a problem. They don't know how to talk to people who don't agree with them. They don't know not to start a formal debate without consent from the other party. It's disingenuous to deny the existence of these people, particularly if you're all involved in co-ops and social groups and can see it in other peoples' kids. (Though I don't believe that anyone who denied the existence of a socialization problem/hurdle also mentioned that their children participated in these groups. Perhaps that's just a coincidence.)

 

 

Did you not know anyone like this in PS when you were a kid? IME they aren't that rare & certainly aren't found only in HSers.

[pdalley]

Today I wish I were a robot because I feel lousy. At least if I were a robot I wouldn't have to worry about it.

 

I'm also tired of feeling the need to defend myself on this board regarding my choice to homeschool! That's my insecurity, I know, but it gets annoying after awhile.

:iagree:

[Sophia]

:banghead: Now you have me contemplating if I can teach everything today in "robot." Thanks....

 

;)

 

When my oldest two were 5 and 3 I would turn into robot mom at lunch.

 

They didn't like it so I stopped :tongue_smilie:.

 

The only socialization issue they have is they socialize too much :lol:

[Laurie4b]

Troll?

 

 

 

What I see is that kids with socially awkward parents are more likely to be socially awkward and kids with socially adept parents are more likely to be socially adept, whatever the method of schooling.

[Mommy22alyns]

I don't get invited to many parties,

 

 

Hmmm, I wonder why?

[AnnaM]

The idea of kids needing to be with other similarly aged kids for hours every day is a fairly new one. There was a time that kids learned how to behave and interact through being with family.

 

But if you are worried that our/your child(ren) aren't out and about enough, I can assure you that they are not confined to the house for the same 6 hours a day that PS children are confined to a classroom. There is no other real life situation in which we are segregated the way a public school segregates, except maybe a prison.

 

It's funny that if you find one awkward homeschool child everyone points them out and uses it to discredit homeschooling, but I can tell you that there are PLENTY of awkward public school children. They are just considered shy while we are considered weird. It's a bit of a double standard, wouldnt you say?

 

Also, Im just not sure I want my children being taught any life skill by other children.

[vonfirmath]

*raises hand* I was public schooled and I am socially awkward.

 

It's personality for me. I am having to push out of my shell because my son is more socially-inclined than I am.

[Jen in PA]

I'm going to give Adam the benefit of the doubt. There is a chance that he is not a troll, didn't mean to offend anyone, is genuinely interested in homeschooling at some point down the line, and has had the great misfortune to only see worst case scenarios amongst homeschoolers where social interaction (I hesitate to say socialization) is concerned. I feel certain, however, that he has not spent much time at all reading these boards prior to posting.

 

Adam, please get to know us better by reading these forums. It will give you a chance to see a wide array of homeschool experiences -- our successes, our concerns, and our frustrations. You will find parents pulling kids out of school because of truly awful social situations. You will find parents returning their children to schools for all sorts of reasons, including social opportunities. You will also see parents describing the things their kids are doing in co-ops, swim teams, dance classes, 4-H, religious activities, academic competitions, martial arts classes, scouting..... any sort of group activity you could imagine. Take a look at the High School and College boards and find out about the homeschool grads who impress college administrators in admissions and scholarship interviews. Homeschoolers, like conventionally schooled children, run the gamut from awkward to eloquent, from outgoing to introverted. There is a wealth of experience here, and you'll get the most out of it if you drop your preconceptions and enter with an open mind.

[FloridaLisa]

1st post, no other posts. . . either a troll or someone writing a story on homeschooling who wants some good quotes.

 

:iagree:

 

Lisa

[dirty ethel rackham]

I am not a troll. But I am glad that I deleted one of the original sentences of my message, "If you don't believe there is a socialization problem, then your child is probably an exemplar of it." Because there's no call for needless provocation. :)

 

Glad you deleted that one. I think that would have created a firestorm!

 

I will leave it to the forum to wonder whether the shrill denials of the existence of a socialization problem allayed my fears or not.

 

Shrill? Really? That must be your own bias. I saw nothing shrill in any of the replies. I haven't read beyond this one, though. In fact, judging by the somewhat arrogant and hostile nature of your original post (at least that is the way it came across in this sterile world of cyberspace), I think the ladies here were most gracious.

 

I would be a little surprised if a post about a true non-issue generated 33 replies in less than 24 hours.

 

The number of replies has more to do with the fact that the "s-word" (as it is commonly called among homeschoolers) is a tired argument brought up over and over again by people who are ignorant of homeschooling yet quite strident in their opposition to it. So, it is a word that rankles this community. We are not touchy because we are defensive about something we are trying to keep hidden. We are irritated because the ignorant parade it about endlessly - that includes teachers' unions who have adopted anti-homeschooling rhetoric. In my 14 years of homeschooling, every time I have met someone who just finds out I am homeschooling, we have the same conversation - "My kids have plenty of opportunities to socialize." "No, I am no more concerned about it than I would be if they were in school - probably less so." "No, I do not lock them in the attic - our challenge is to actually say 'no' to some of the many wonderful opportunities and stay home to get some work done." Yada yada yada. I am sure I am not unique. Can you get why we are a little tired of it?

 

 

Again, thanks to those who shared about how their children are different, and how they have dealt with that.Some kids are naturally social, and some need help.

.

 

This implies that children who are not "social" (by that I am guessing that you mean outgoing and comfortable in large groups since you didn't really define it) have a problem. Introversion is not a disease, it is a temperament. Do some children need help learning to navigate different social environments? Yes, regardless of the school setting - home or institutional.

The mother who wrote about the child who spoke out of turn and went off on tangents hit the nail on the head. (And since she is aware of the problem I'm sure she will be able to deal with it successfully.) But you talk to some kids and the smallest thing sends them off rambling, apropos to nothing, about constitutional law or whatever. It's neat that they can talk about constitutional law, but if they don't know how to have a normal conversation, then that's a problem. They don't know how to talk to people who don't agree with them. They don't know not to start a formal debate without consent from the other party. It's disingenuous to deny the existence of these people, particularly if you're all involved in co-ops and social groups and can see it in other peoples' kids. (Though I don't believe that anyone who denied the existence of a socialization problem/hurdle also mentioned that their children participated in these groups. Perhaps that's just a coincidence.)

 

Do you really think that this is a homeschooling problem? Have you never met an adult who is this way? I know plenty of people who are like this and they went to school. What is it about homeschooling would make this more prevalent? I would think that having more supervision from adults would allow for more social coaching on how to interact properly. In school, the child is simply ostracized, thus reducing the opportunities to learn appropriate behavior.

 

ETA: And, if you are an author looking for quotes, you may only use my remarks in their entirety and with my express permission.

Edited February 28, 2011 by dirty ethel rackham

[LittleIzumi]

To be fair, a TON of moms come on here & post that they want to homeschool but their dh is worried about socialization. Looks like we got the dad himself this time. You'd think we'd be used to this by now. it should be a sticky--why our kids are just fine, thanks :lol:

 

I know. I just agreed with him for the first time ever I think and I think I may have felt a small quiver in the fabric of the universe.

 

This would be twice in a week but the new week just started so I'll say it's just once this week again.

 

5, 3, and 6 mos. My 5-year-old is in kindergarten in a private Christian school.

 

 

 

I definitely think that social exposure helps. There are studies linking the amount of verbal input children get to their intelligence. I cannot help but assume that much the same situation obtains for developing social skills. Of course, we could argue all day about what level of "filtering" is helpful for social development, and at what ages. But to me, to say that my son will learn whatever social skills he needs in the home environment, is to surrender him to whatever innate social capacity has has (not much).

 

 

 

This is what makes it hard to tell why these kids are weird. Homeschooling is much more mainstream than it was when I was growing up (I'm 28). I'm sure in the past it was much more the domain of... extreme... personalities -- not entirely, but in large part. So are today's weird homeschooled adults socially awkward because they're homeschooled, or because they have socially awkward parents?

 

 

 

I don't get invited to many parties, so it's hard to comment.

 

My concern is sincere, since I don't know what our schooling options will be in the next several years. Genuinely, I don't want my kids learning to interact with other people starting in college, and I don't want them to be attached to our nuclear family beyond what is healthy for them. (The latter issue is what I have seen up-close, and it strikes terror into my heart to imagine my sons not being able to function outside of our home.)

 

Frankly, this is such an elephant-in-the-room issue I don't know whether anything would be gained by using excessive tact in raising the subject. Is there a polite way to ask, "Do you think you're screwing up your kids?"? Well, perhaps. There's probably merit in stirring the hive enough to get past what seem to be the typical (throwaway) answers: "I don't want my kid socialized into sin" and "He socializes just fine with adults" and the like.

 

Adam

 

It's not an elephant in the room for HSers. It's just what pretty much every non-HSing person asks about and therefore it gets old to answer it again. And again. And again. If you could see our children, you'd know. In fact, I think the proper point is if you saw our kids you WOULDN'T know they were homeschooled, except perhaps most of them are a bit politer & more well-read than most PS students. I was a product of the PS system for many years, with a couple of HS years sprinkled in. I an extremely introverted & geeky. I was that way for my many years in PS. My years in HS were much less stressful that way because then less people were judging me, but the PS certainly didn't bring me out of my shell. I didn't have good school friends. I had gymnastics friends (can still do that HSing), church friends (still do that), good tae kwon do friends (can still do that), good horse barn friends (can still do that HSing), etc.

 

As for behavioral issues like raising hands & speaking out of turn, that depends on what is taught. My kids DO actually know how to raise their hands & wait to be called on, because they both like to talk at the same time (which is impossible to hear properly), so I taught them to raise their hands & wait. They are 5 & 3. I think they're actually ahead of the PS curve on that :tongue_smilie:. My 5-year-old is awkward like me. It's in her genes. My 3-year-old (with obviously less social experience) is extremely extroverted & charming & at ease in social situations--like dh. Hooray for genetics again.

 

Look. If you have faith that you and your wife are not complete idiots, then you will do just fine if you choose homeschooling. If you trust that you are both capable of seeking answers to any problems you have, you will do just fine. You will graduate your kids wishing you'd done some things differently, but life is like that. 20/20 vision only comes with hindsight.

 

We can't come here aiming for our children to be the paragons of academic and social achievement. The material we have to work with is as human as we are All we can do is our best, and people are here because they want their best to be an informed best, rather than their natural default. If this topic means that much to you, then you are certainly capable of doing your best.

 

Rosie

 

:iagree:

 

:banghead: Now you have me contemplating if I can teach everything today in "robot." Thanks....

 

;)

 

Would that be binary? ;)

 

Okay, I have to run tandclean up for a playgroup that's coming over to socialize our lovely homeschooled children together (one of several playgroups for the week--one with all "regular" children. There is no noticable difference in socialization at that group. My children fit in beautifully & are usually the calmer ones in the group, actually). :)

Edited February 28, 2011 by LittleIzumi

[Dobela]

This is what makes it hard to tell why these kids are weird. Homeschooling is much more mainstream than it was when I was growing up (I'm 28). I'm sure in the past it was much more the domain of... extreme... personalities -- not entirely, but in large part. So are today's weird homeschooled adults socially awkward because they're homeschooled, or because they have socially awkward parents?

 

I taught in public schools for several years. Depending on where I lived I dealt with families that were poor, rich, rural and urban, educated and uneducated. In each one of those schools there were children that were *weird*. Some had Aspergers likely. Some didn't. Some delightful children had some of the oddest people as parents that I have ever known. None of the children and none of the parents had been homeschooled at any time. Homeschooling doesn't 'make' a child or family weird. Weirdness can occur anywhere. I know that as a former foster parent I often had children that were identified as 'unsocialized' - and some of those were school age and already in public schools. It was only after living with me, in a homeschool family, that these children were described as having improved social skills.

[LittleIzumi]

Homeschooling doesn't 'make' a child or family weird. Weirdness can occur anywhere.

:iagree:

 

"Socialization" at my snazzy, rich (the area), fancy high school included sex in the parking lot & hard drugs in the cars (I saw one nice guy running out to his car b/c the cops were doing a random search & he had drugs up to & including acid in there :lol:). And that's just what *I* knew about, as a geek instead of one of the cool kids. I don't really miss that. Maybe that's why my actual friends were from extra-curricular activities, where we had a common interest & wanted to be there.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

I guess I'm a cynic this week because the OPs 2 posts lead me to believe one of the following:

 

a) a troll

 

b) an education department student trying to learn about homeschoolers

 

c) a psyc department student doing the same

 

d) a reporter, writer, or other researcher looking for good quotes

 

e) a father or family member who's relative wants to homeschool and they are arriving with their preconceptions about homeschooling fully packed and looking for excuses not to agree to homeschooling

 

f) an unsocialized person who rather than asking the question they want answered is taking the antisocial approach and provoking to see what response is generated

 

g) someone who wants a platform created on which they may expound on their anit-homeschool rhetoric or just wants to laugh at the furor they create--no wait--that puts us back to option A doesn't it?

 

As for the rest-I'll agree with pqr, Mrs. M and the others who have posted about there being no demonstrable link between unsocialized behavior and homeschooling.

[Jennifer3141]

Yeah. Hmmm...

 

"Originally Posted by adamb924

I am not a troll. But I am glad that I deleted one of the original sentences of my message, "If you don't believe there is a socialization problem, then your child is probably an exemplar of it." Because there's no call for needless provocation. :)"

Well, thank you for not saying it. Except that you just did. So I am pretty certain the socialization you obviously practice is NOT what I want for my children. IMO, you make the point for homeschooling with your attitude. You simply cannot learn when you've convinced yourself that you already know the answer!!!

[phathui5]

I think we all know there's a socialization problem.

 

 

What would that be?

[Jean in Newcastle]

The OP sounds much like the lady I met at a child's birthday party which I was attending with my children. All the children were playing together when the lady asked me the dreaded question "What do you do all day?" When I told her that I homeschooled my children, she looked at me in amazement, "But. . . but. . . they are so social!" I told her that it helped to let them out of the basement at least once a week.:glare: (And in case, your socialization hasn't extended to sarcasm, that last sentence was an example of it.)

[Mrs Mungo]

Today I wish I were a robot because I feel lousy. At least if I were a robot I wouldn't have to worry about it.

 

My kids only do two things in robot:

 

1.

2.

<---there is a bad work in the song in this link

 

I'm also tired of feeling the need to defend myself on this board regarding my choice to homeschool! That's my insecurity, I know, but it gets annoying after awhile.

Several people expressed that frustration, but the thread was actually deleted and everyone chastised. Edited February 28, 2011 by Mrs Mungo

[Jennifer3141]

:glare: (And in case, your socialization hasn't extended to sarcasm, that last sentence was an example of it.)

 

:smilielol5:

[LittleIzumi]

I didn't see that. Now I'm baffled. :confused:

 

Not everyone who comes here is a full-time homeschooler--many afterschool or use PS & are thinking about HS, and they have questions or different opinions than the full-time HSers. SWB started a thread saying neither group was allowed to bash wholesale on the other (which is why threads were deleted) & that makes sense.

[Mrs Mungo]

I didn't really see much bashing, but I'm on the East coast now, so it could have happened after I went to bed.

[OnTheBrink]

Hello,

 

 

 

I think we all know there's a socialization problem.

 

 

 

Gosh, there surely is! I took my 13 year old dd to the planetarium in Chicago last week. We went on "discount" day, which translates into "day of many school groups." The groups of school children were loud, unruly, running amok, with chaperones who yelled, snapped fingers and pointed and basically made spectacles of themselves. These kids had no idea that they should control themselves, speak in a regular "inside voice", move out of the way of other people who need to get by them, or say, "Excuse me" when they needed to get past someone.

 

Definitely a socialization problem there.

[Jen in PA]

My kids only do two things in robot:

 

1.

 

 

My dd does an eerily realistic dalek impression. :D

[Scarlett]

I'm looking for people's thoughts on socialization. As much as I appreciated the academic content in TWTM, I would summarize the chapter on socialization as: there is no socialization problem.

 

It has been a while since I read TWTM, but MY take on SWB's views of the socialization issue was that she encourages people to think of their children and peer involvement differently than what is mainstream.

 

So I would say she thinks it is not a problem that kids are not around their peer group 8 hours a day---is that really a problem?

[jazzyfizzle]

Yeah. Hmmm...

 

 

 

Well, thank you for not saying it. Except that you just did. So I am pretty certain the socialization you obviously practice is NOT what I want for my children.!

 

Exactly! :thumbup:

 

 

 

 

Ahhh! Adam came back to play! :D Gotta love those planets! Fun!

[kchara]

I think that it's assumed that we *want* our kids to have the same "social graces" (and I use that term VERY loosely) as other children in society. For our family, we definitely DON'T. Sorry. My husband and I have decided that there is a serious problem with children/adolescents/adults perpetually acting like adolescents in society today, and that's one of many, many reasons we homeschool, to avoid the very scenario of our kids turning out "normal" by our seriously screwed up society's standards. So, to us, the socialization issue isn't one that homeschoolers need to deal with as a problem, it's one that the rest of society needs to deal with before it self-implodes.

[mommaduck]

I look at it this way: My children don't have any more social problems than if they were in school. In fact, they may have less because I'm working with them on any social issues they may have. I was in Private and Public school as a kid. I was also a Third Culture Kid. I had social issues when I came back to the states. This doesn't mean that the military "screwed me up". It means I was different in personality and experiences...like every kid on earth. Being in public school did not make things better for me. In fact, it made things very difficult for me, for my personality, for my circumstances (difficult as in dang near tragic). Each kid is different and not all kids are cut out for the dog pile...regardless if they are on top or bottom. I have one kid that is a Geek and he's proud of it. Homeschooling till highschool gave him the opportunity to focus on what he likes (science) and to mature enough to blow off all the peer pressure and ignorance he's seeing in highschool (and probably would have seen some of in college). Second child is very social, but homeschooling also helped her focus on academics rather than be sidetracked by peer pressures or "mean girl syndrome". She will be going to private school for 7th. Second two children both have "social issues"...one very similar to what I had when I was young (doesn't pick up on social cues well, takes offense easily, black/white personality). Homeschooling is allowing me to work with her on that to prepare her for life and dealing with other people (she is socially involved through church, co-ops, etc). If she were in the public school (maybe even private school), she would be eaten alive. She's the type that paints the target on her own back; she's just naturally socially awkward (oh, and my mother was the same...public school was hell on her as well). Sending her to school will not "help" her awkwardness...it will only make it more difficult to guide her through it and would be more damaging at this stage. Eventually, she will socially mature enough to deal. One of my other children could probably be put into school and just fly through socially without being distracted, but still being very social...however, homeschooling won't change that or stunt her growth either. In fact, she gets a little more free time to be her playful self.

 

Just four examples of four very different children and how homeschooling helps them.