My son's one page report about caribou may be the end of both of us.

[*********]

:banghead::banghead:

 

Ugh. It's not even a full page long. You'd think, by the look on his face, that having to write a final draft was akin to a death sentence.

 

It's three paragraphs, dude. If he'd just suck it up and do it already, he'd be done by now.

 

The theatrics are just too much. Sighing, paper shuffling, irritated erasing, even sniffling. I may have to leave the room.

 

PLEASE lie to me and tell me they out grow this. The boy is seven, is in fourth grade math, but copying a few paragraphs is literally torture for him.

 

What do I do? (In the future, I mean. I've already picked THIS battle, so I will win it.)

[MaryCatherine]

Three paragraphs? By a seven year old? I'd be banging my head too!

[*********]

Is that too much? He's going to be 8 soon. If he were in public school, he'd be in second grade.

[Melinda in VT]

Is that too much? He's going to be 8 soon. If he were in public school, he'd be in second grade.

 

I think it depends on how you are doing this.

 

(Fwiw, my kids are in a public school with a great writing program, so I'm coming from what I've seen them do.)

 

I don't think the end product is too much, but I'm pretty sure my kids didn't create those reports in one sitting. So any given session was manageable, but it added up to a one-page report.

[Barb_]

Is that too much? He's going to be 8 soon. If he were in public school, he'd be in second grade.

 

I think one well constructed paragraph with a clear topic sentence, supporting details and conclusion, even one written with a lot of hand holding, is a more valuable learning experience than three crappy paragraphs written under duress :tongue_smilie:

 

Public schools do a lot of writing in the younger years, but I believe it's a mistake. The usual purpose it serves is to teach kids that writing is a tedious exercise best gotten over with quickly with little attention to quality. I'm not saying that is how you are approaching things, Bethany, only that I wouldn't hold up the typical public school's approach as an example.

 

Barb

[LibraryLover]

Oh, dear. Download this by SWB:

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/store/elementary-grades-mp3.html

 

A mere $3.99 will save you both.

[NanceXToo]

MY hand hurts after handwriting a paragraph or two. I do think three paragraphs at once is a lot for a 7 year old. I don't think I'd ask a 7 y/o to write more than a paragraph. Or at the very least, break it up over a few day period, writing a paragraph a day or some such.

[*********]

What do I do now? I'm confused. It's like we've come to a point in language arts where he just can't learn any more right now. Does that make sense? He's about two thirds of the way through third grade in CLE language arts, and it's just getting too much for him. What do I do? Be gentle, I'm still new at this.

[StephanieF]

My ds7 refuses to copy out his one paragraph written using IEW level A. I type it for him. Problem is that he does the whole lot in one sitting and from start to finish it can take him 90 mins. That includes doing the KWO and doing public speaking practice. So asking him to write it out sends him into meltdown.

 

How about asking him to do it a paragraph at a time?

Stephanie

[Barb_]

MY hand hurts after handwriting a paragraph or two. I do think three paragraphs at once is a lot for a 7 year old..

 

Especially about caribou :lol: I don't know if I could bring myself to care enough about caribou to write three paragraphs.

 

Have you thought about putting aside the program for a couple of months and just letting the magic of natural development and maturity do its trick while you strike out on another course, maybe some drawing lessons or a gentle intro to a foreign language? I find that if I put away materials when we hit a wall they can work through the curriculum twice as fast with half as much pain after letting it cement for a few months.

 

Barb

[NanceXToo]

What do I do now? I'm confused. It's like we've come to a point in language arts where he just can't learn any more right now. Does that make sense? He's about two thirds of the way through third grade in CLE language arts, and it's just getting too much for him. What do I do? Be gentle, I'm still new at this.

 

Well... he's the age of a second grader, right? And you've got him doing third grade work, and he's reached his limit? I think you should just stop. Instead of trying to go further, see if you can practice/review what you've already learned for the rest of the year in fun, creative ways that he will enjoy and that will help him not "forget" what he's learned so far. Give it a break. Do the rest next year, or over the summer if you really want it finished before next school year. For now forget stressing over writing assignment type things and read, talk, play word games, have fun, focus on other things, or other subjects, or follow his interests etc. But take that with a grain of salt, I'm a pretty relaxed homeschooler to begin with, who thinks there's something to be said for the "Better Late Than Early" approach. :)

[NanceXToo]

Especially about caribou :lol: I don't know if I could bring myself to care enough about caribou to write three paragraphs.

 

:lol: There is that, too.

 

ETA: Another idea is to let him dictate to you and you type it for him, then ask him to draw a picture to accompany it.

[LibraryLover]

I encourage you to listen to Susan's A Plan for Writing. She speaks about most writing programs being designed by women for little girls. It might sound sexist reading that sentence, but it makes a load of sense when you hear it. (She does say that if one has a child who loves to write, have at it. Of course, I am paraphrasing).

 

SWB believes that if the intensive writing programs of most public schools worked, she would not see so many kids in her college classes who can't write.

 

She also says that if a little boy tells you is hand is going to fall off, he's telling the truth. :)

 

What do I do now? I'm confused. It's like we've come to a point in language arts where he just can't learn any more right now. Does that make sense? He's about two thirds of the way through third grade in CLE language arts, and it's just getting too much for him. What do I do? Be gentle, I'm still new at this.

Edited February 5, 2011 by LibraryLover

[Tap]

Well... he's the age of a second grader, right? And you've got him doing third grade work, and he's reached his limit? I think you should just stop. Instead of trying to go further, see if you can practice/review what you've already learned for the rest of the year in fun, creative ways that he will enjoy and that will help him not "forget" what he's learned so far. Give it a break. Do the rest next year, or over the summer if you really want it finished before next school year. For now forget stressing over writing assignment type things and read, talk, play word games, have fun, focus on other things, or other subjects, or follow his interests etc. But take that with a grain of salt, I'm a pretty relaxed homeschooler to begin with, who thinks there's something to be said for the "Better Late Than Early" approach. :)

 

:iagree: It sounds like he has plateaued for a bit. Use the extra time for something he love like more science, more read alouds, or just free time for field trips. You will see when it is time to start it back up again. If not this year, then at the beginning of next year.

[Mejane]

Don't feel too bad. My 15yo had to write three one-paragraph test answers this morning, and only managed to get one done. Yeah, it's Friday.

[Mynyel]

It's too much. My just turned 9 year old could not do it either. He could attempt it, but it wouldn't be very good and he would be hemming and hawing the whole way. He is able to compose a few perfect sentences, but several paragraphs? No way.

 

:iagree:

 

Mine is almost 9 is three paragraphs would kill him. One paragraph not so much. Have him write 1 paragraph a day and see how that goes. Will take longer but less :banghead:. Which in turn means less medication for you. ;)

[Mom-ninja.]

As others have said, yes 3 paragraphs from a typical 7 yr old boy is way too much. We use FLL and my just turned 10 yr old (4th grade age wise) is doing FLL4. We just did a letter writing lesson, and the instructions say to aim for a 4 sentence paragraph letter. So at 30 lessons into the book, the aim is one paragraph 4 sentences long.

 

I can't imagine trying to get a 7 yr old to do 3 paragraphs. No wonder you're both frustrated. Slow down, there is no rush. :grouphug:

 

Have you read WTM? I also highly recommend SWB's lectures. They are wonderful. Your ds will love you for it. :D

[Nakia]

I agree with LL. You really need to listen to SWB's writing series. It literally changed my entire philosophy about writing. My oldest dd was having a horrible time with writing, so I bought the downloads, and how things have changed!!! They just make so much sense. That was the best $12 I ever spent on our homeschool. I now have my oldest in Writing with Ease level 4. No more tears about writing! I started it with my middle dd as well. We all love it!!

 

 

ETA: The lightbulb moment for me when I was listening to SWB was when she compared writing to sitting down to play the piano while composing the music. Of course, she says it much better than I ever could, but I remind myself of that all the time.

Edited February 4, 2011 by Nakia

[mcconnellboys]

This is too much for a seven year old!

[AngieW in Texas]

I agree with the others that it's a lot more than I'd expect from a 7yo, even one working at a 3rd grade level.

 

I'd have him work on a single paragraph that's 4-6 sentences long. Even that may be too much.

[Truscifi]

I have the same reaction from my 7yo about 4 sentences of history narration a week. And he dictates the sentences to me, then I write them out for him to type and save in a special folder on his laptop. I can't imagine having him write 3 paragraphs right now. He is a very reluctant writer though.

[susankenny]

Waaaay more than I expect here from my 7 year old.

 

 

 

Susan

[justamouse]

That's a whole lot from a 7 year old.

 

And, in all honestly, I wouldn't want to win the war. I'd pick it up, tear it up, and ask him to give me two sentences.

[simka2]

Bethany, there have been a few times where I have asked to much of my kiddos. Okay more than a few!!!! Set it aside. Take a break. Maybe get some good copywork for a bit.

 

Have you looked into Rod and staffs grammar?

[Cindyg]

At 7, on Day 1, my son and I would have planned the paper together. On Day 2, my son would have dictated the draft, and I would have typed it. On Day 3, we would have revised it together (for content). On Day 4, we would have edited it together (for grammar and spelling). On Day 5, we would have adjusted the margins, spacing, etc., and perhaps illustrated it, and printed it.

 

But at 7, it would not have been three paragraphs. When my son was 7, he was in the first grade and was very intimidated by writing. Holding a pencil was torture to him. And the idea of putting thoughts on paper was very unpleasant to him!

 

He's 13 now and in the 7th grade. He still doesn't write much with a pencil; he types very well. He types his own papers, and we usually get through the five steps (listed above) in one sitting.

[Allearia]

What do I do now? I'm confused. It's like we've come to a point in language arts where he just can't learn any more right now. Does that make sense? He's about two thirds of the way through third grade in CLE language arts, and it's just getting too much for him. What do I do? Be gentle, I'm still new at this.

 

This is coming from someone who had a 7 yo doing similar work. I would break it down, and have him do one paragraph a day for three days. Is he having to come up with content or is he just copying what he did before with corrections? I am not familiar with CLE. But with the writing assignments I would slow down and have him complete them over a few days. At least two days for a longer assignment where he has to come up with content, if he is just copying a final draft he might be faster but if I want it to be legible I would still spread it out. Can you keep going with other areas of language arts but spread out the writing a bit, or not do all the writing assignments? Do some of them really well but spread them out over a week or two? then you still have the forward momentum but gives his poor hand a break.

[Melissa in Australia]

my ds7 has just finished grade 1, he has been working through WWE1, he hasn't written a sentence by himself yet. He narrates to me, I write it down and then he copies.

[KathyBC]

If you *need* to win this one, I would break it down into parts. Have him write one paragraph today, one Monday, one Tuesday. Sit by him and coach him through it, if need be. You will still have your one-page paper on caribou, he will not have his hand fall off, lol. And then you can institute the fabulous advice you have received here. My .02.

[Samiam]

As I read the title and started to read the post, I am like, Yep, yep, yep, YEP, that is MY son......until I got the bottom....my son is 12!! Of course, he would not be copying (I think you said it was copywork), but an original composition would have the same reaction.

 

With my 7 year old, um, yeah, that would never be happening. A sentence, okay, but three paragraphs,, never!

[amey311]

I think it's okay if you don't "win." It's okay to step back and figure out a way to say, "you know what, Dear Boy of Mine? I think we're done. We're both tired and cranky, you don't want to write about caribou and I don't want to make you write about caribou anymore. I've been talking to some other mommies and we think maybe this was a bit too much work, for even a fabulously smart boy like you. On Monday, we'll start again with a new plan."

 

If he wants details about the new plan, you can explain that on Monday, he can dictate some sentences about caribou to you and you'll write them down. Then he can copy them so they're HIS writing. You'll start with just 3 sentences and see how it's going.

 

My 7 year old could probably dictate 3 paragraphs on a host of topics (real and imaginary), but his hand wouldn't be able to keep up with his brain, or his hand would just get tired. He's been dictating the life story of "Titanium Man" to me in bits and pieces when he has new ideas. The other day he drew a picture of a chupacabra and labeled the parts. He has regaled us all with the details of the car company he's going to start when he's an adult. He has LOADS of ideas, but he'd need a scribe.

 

My 10 year old would have to be prompted regularly to come up with 3 paragraphs worth of information on a subject. Well, maybe on hockey or one of the Playstation games he could do better, but still... WWE is an EXCELLENT fit for him because it doesn't require any creative writing right now. We're moving thru level 1 quickly and I can see that his confidence is building somewhat, but he'll try to come up with short sentences for the narration bit ("Billy bet that he could eat fifteen worms. No. Billy would eat fifteen worms. No. Billy would eat a worm.") He doesn't always luck out - sometimes he gets the longer sentence. He has gotten MUCH better about what makes a complete sentence.

[Pretty in Pink]

I agree that it is likely just too much for the little guy. My 7yo could not neatly copy three paragraphs in one sitting; asking him to compose his own work is like asking him to pull out his own tooth! He does oral narrations (of 3 or so sentences) that I copy down for him. He does copywork and dictation (of 3 or so sentences), neatly. I don't require him to write compositions yet.

 

I do keep a basket of blank books on hand and supplies handy for creating them. He will write in those of his own free will.

 

And...caribou?! :lol:

 

ETA: You might be relieved to know that my eldest, at 7 years of age, was just like this. He's now 12 and spends a large part of his free time working on his own manuscripts. He still hates writing reports, though!

Edited February 5, 2011 by Pretty in Pink

[Allearia]

I just wanted to post saying I don't think it is impossible for a 7 yo to an assignment like this. I would let him spread it over a few days but my son at that age was writing that and longer. Obviously it is fine if they are not ready and most 7yo are not. But if he has been regularly writing a lot I don't know if I would go all the way back to copywork. It really depends if this is an out of the ordinary assignment that is just longer than usual or if he is just having a hard time today.

[texasmama]

Is that too much? He's going to be 8 soon. If he were in public school, he'd be in second grade.

 

I haven't read the other replies, but my 8 year old 2nd grader would be struggling with that assignment.

[joannqn]

IEW (which is written by a man who gives seminars on writing for boys who would rather play in forts) sometimes suggests a level A student do one paragraph a week, taking three weeks to complete a three paragraph report. In addition to that, none of the material is strictly written from the imagination; you start with a source text that a key word outline can be easily pulled from...and you help them make that key word outline. Then they only add a few dress ups and sentence openers here and there.

 

It might be a good writing program for you son if he's ahead of his age-grade but still not ready for a typical writing program. My 9 year old son has no problems writing three paragraph reports with it.

[texasmama]

What do I do now? I'm confused. It's like we've come to a point in language arts where he just can't learn any more right now. Does that make sense? He's about two thirds of the way through third grade in CLE language arts, and it's just getting too much for him. What do I do? Be gentle, I'm still new at this.

 

You could try a different approach or a different program such as WWE. If he has reached the point at which the work is above the level he is at, that would be what I would do.

Edited February 5, 2011 by texasmama

[rootsnwings]

Teach him to type!!! Seriously, I'm getting SO much more out of my DS(just turned 10) now that he's learning to type. He's started doing ALL his history narrations & science reports on the computer and it is going soooooooo much more swimmingly than it was trying to have him copy down his thoughts. I actually feel sort of guilty for not having gotten serious about teaching him to type sooner, now that I see he really DOES enjoy expressing himself, just not through written word.

[pahansen]

I am having the same problem as you with Thing 1 -- gifted child, fantastic composer of articles/creative writing, bursts into tears at the mere suggestion of having to write down what's in his head.

 

We're using the Calvert School program through a virtual charter school, and Calvert is very writing intensive. Too intensive, I think. His reading book, which is a standard Houghton Mifflin (sp?) school text, also shows long writing passages. I think that too much, too fast is definitely hurting him, but I think it's the way of the world right now. Of course, I have no choice, because he needs to send in these ridiculous things to get his grades. (One of the major reasons we're homeschooling on our own next year.) I will say that I can almost guarantee that this newfound need for children to be writing three paragraph compositions by third grade is directly correlated to the writing-intensive standardized testing that is taking place in third grade. My son is even getting "solve and explain in detail how you found the answer to this word problem" assignments because "it will be important when he takes the standardized tests." (Uh, no it won't, because we're jumping ship!) It's made him wary of math, which he used to love. But I digress...

 

That said, I do think it's appropriate for you to win this battle, even though it may be a pyrrhic victory. You're still the teacher, you still gave the assignment, and it still needs to be completed. If he were in a PS, he'd be getting assignments that were ridiculous all the time. ;) Plus I'm noticing a lot of manipulation beginning at this age.

 

When we have a long assignment, Thing 1 dictates to me, then I dictate back to him so that he can print the text himself. (The school wants it in his writing.) While a lot of people have mentioned doing it over a series of days, that depends on the child. Feel him out. It's just like a Band-Aid -- some people want to remove it slowly; for other people, it would just extend the agony.

 

After the fact, I would definitely talk to him. Apologize if you think that the work was legitimately too difficult for him. If you don't think it was beyond him, work with him to figure out a way for him to do the composition part without quite so much handwriting/agony. There have been a number of good suggestions for that already.

 

If he's interested, learning to touch type is not too much at this age. He won't be proficient for a while, so it's more of an investment, but he's old enough to use a program like Mavis Beacon for kids -- my son is enjoying it and becoming quite good, and it's very reasonably priced.

 

Good luck, and I feel for you.

--Pamela

[NanceXToo]

I think it's okay if you don't "win." It's okay to step back and figure out a way to say, "you know what, Dear Boy of Mine? I think we're done. We're both tired and cranky, you don't want to write about caribou and I don't want to make you write about caribou anymore. I've been talking to some other mommies and we think maybe this was a bit too much work, for even a fabulously smart boy like you. On Monday, we'll start again with a new plan."

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

Love this post. This doesn't have to be a battle or a power struggle, and it shouldn't be. And it's okay for you to to change tactics and say "I thought this over and I've changed my mind and this is why and this is what we will do instead." IF you have come to agree that perhaps your expectations were off base (and that's up to you to decide), then don't let stubbornness win out over common sense or a good relationship with your son just so you can say you "won" something. This isn't about winning or losing, it's about child development and a relationship between a mother and son. It's just as important for a child to learn that EVERYBODY makes mistakes and can admit they were wrong (yes, even grownups, even Mom) and that it's okay to sometimes change your mind, or to change courses if the first isn't working, as it is for them to learn that they have to do what mom says. And PLEASE come at this in a positive light and let him know it's not because of some sort of "failure" on his part.

Edited February 5, 2011 by NanceXToo

[Haiku]

Three paragraphs from a seven year old?? Too much!!

 

Tara

[*********]

I've been out of commission this week, but I wanted to come back and thank everyone for their advice. I DIDN'T make Zee finish, I told him that I talked to some other homeschool moms online, and they said it was too much work for a boy his age. He was so relieved, and readily forgave me when I apologized and asked him to forgive me. When he's over his pneumonia, we'll pick it back up, but do it slowly and I'll let him type it.

 

Again, thanks for the reality check and advice.

[texasmama]

You are a good mom. :)

 

:grouphug: for your son with his illness.

[amey311]

I'm sorry the poor boy is sick. Good for you for taking a step back and regrouping. That little bit of breathing room can help quite a bit.

[scrappyhappymama]

FWIW, I think Caribou is an excellent writing topic for a 7 year old boy. :D I know my boys would get a kick out of it.

 

Hope your little guys are feeling better soon. :grouphug:

 

And you my dear are a beautiful example of grace in the face of criticism. It would be difficult for many of us to return to this thread and respond with humility and not defensively. Bravo mama!

[Tree House Academy]

Is that too much? He's going to be 8 soon. If he were in public school, he'd be in second grade.

 

It is WAY too much! My 2nd grader (who will be 8 at the end of Sept and reads on a 7th grade level) would be lucky to write a couple of sentences. He can copy about 4 sentences at a time without losing his mind.

[Tree House Academy]

I didn't see your reply, nor did I realize how old this post was when I responded. Glad you decided to take a step back. I really hope he feels better soon!