Would you be okay with the school asking your 12 year old their sexual orientation?

[joannqn]

A local school district gave kids participating in the Challenge Program a survey. It asked some basic questions like their grade and gender, but then it asked "Do you identify as a heterosexual/straight/lesbian/gay/bi-sexual, unsure or prefer not to say?"

 

This was given out to middle school students. Around here, that's 6th, 7th, and 8th grade.

 

Here's the story on the website of a local TV station.

 

This is the website of the organization running the Challenge Program. It says 14 states are eligible, and Washington isn't on that list, but two of the leaders listed on this website were sited as the leaders of the program in the school district's newsletter. Pretty sure it's the same organization.

Edited October 6, 2010 by joannqn
Type in the title

[Mercy_Me]

:eek: What exactly is the Challenge Program? I would be very concerned as to WHY they would consider this pertinent information!

[Mercy_Me]

Sorry! Didn't see your links. Going to read now! :leaving:

[Mercy_Me]

It actually sounds like a wonderful program. Given the program's nature, I can see why this would be pertinent information (acceptance, tearing down walls, etc), HOWEVER, I'm not sure the age group they are targeting would even understand what that question is asking, kwim?

[Ellie]

Absolutely not. And if I knew that my dc's school was sucking 6 hours out of my dc's education to hold one of these things, I'd keep him home. :thumbdown:

[Peela]

No, I wouldn't be happy about my 12yo being asked that, and I am fairly liberal. Apart from anything else, it is absolutely none of thier business.

[joannqn]

I'm not sure if this is a school-wide program or an opt-in event. If it is a school-wide program, I know that parents don't really have a legal right to pull their kids from it.

 

From the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals Fields v. Palmdale School District:

 

"We conclude only that the parents are possessed of no constitutional right to prevent the public schools from providing information on [the subject of sex] to their students in any forum or manner they select."

 

Further, they said that

 

"the right [of parents to control the upbringing of their children] does not extend beyond the threshold of the school door."

 

While this is an anti-bullying program, if sex and sexual orientation is part of the program, I would think it would fall under this court decision.

[Mercy_Me]

Our Vision

 

Our vision is that every child lives in a world where they feel safe, loved and celebrated.

Our Mission

 

The Challenge Day mission is to provide youth and their communities with experiential programs that demonstrate the possibility of love and connection through the celebration of diversity, truth, and full expression.

 

The survey is more than likely just for the purposes of demographics. If anything, they could simply choose not to answer. I certainly CAN see why it would make some parents cringe, but the best thing to do is not make a big deal about it and truly try to gain something from the experience. Sounds like a fantastic program with VERY respectable goals.

[Mercy_Me]

....and it is opt-in. You have to pay for the experience. So the issue is easily avoidable if you feel that strongly against it.

[Laura Corin]

As it also has a 'rather not say' option, I'm not concerned.

 

Laura

[joannqn]

One of the parents quoted said his daughter didn't know how to answer. It kind of puts the parents in an awkward situation if they don't want their child to know what those choices are just yet...and they didn't know this question was going to be asked ahead of time. If they knew sexual orientation was going to be addressed, they could choose not to have their kids participate. How do you make those choices if you don't know what is going to be covered ahead of time?

[NavyWifeandMommy]

I wouldn't allow it. I dont believe in filling out those forms anyways. Besides I am sure more than one child will say they are homosexuals just for fun. Don't they wont, I filled out forms in school and we all put the worse case stuff onto it even though they said to be honest.

[Miss Sherry]

I wouldn't allow it. I dont believe in filling out those forms anyways. Besides I am sure more than one child will say they are homosexuals just for fun. Don't they wont, I filled out forms in school and we all put the worse case stuff onto it even though they said to be honest.

"Besides I am sure more than one child will say they are homosexuals just for fun." That's probably what will happen.

:tongue_smilie:

[Corraleno]

It sounds like the survey forms were anonymous, demographic-data-gathering type forms, and there was a "prefer not to say" option (not to mention the fact that any student who wanted to hide their orientation could just check the straight option). It wouldn't bother me at all, and I think the idea of the anti-bullying program is a good one. I also find it hard to believe that there are many 12-14 yo's in PS who don't know what "gay" means. :confused:

 

Jackie

[Miss Sherry]

A local school district gave kids participating in the Challenge Program a survey. It asked some basic questions like their grade and gender, but then it asked "Do you identify as a heterosexual/straight/lesbian/gay/bi-sexual, unsure or prefer not to say?"

 

This was given out to middle school students. Around here, that's 6th, 7th, and 8th grade.

 

Here's the story on the website of a local TV station.

 

This is the website of the organization running the Challenge Program. It says 14 states are eligible, and Washington isn't on that list, but two of the leaders listed on this website were sited as the leaders of the program in the school district's newsletter. Pretty sure it's the same organization.

The first link you posted will not work for me. It takes me to a page that says "You 404'd it . Gnarly,dude"

[Miss Sherry]

I wouldn't want my child involved in this. I don't trust their motives. Also, I would wonder what all of the things could be that they would be doing with everyone's personal answers.

Is the questionnaire done anonymously ?

 

Really, it is none of the schools business to be asking students about that. Would adults put up with that at their place of employment ? Why do we as a society expect our children to put up with so much personal intrusion ?

Edited October 6, 2010 by Miss Sherry

[Corraleno]

I wouldn't want my child involved in this. I don't trust their motives. Also, I would wonder what all of the things could be that they would be doing with everyone's personal answers.

Is the questionnaire done anonymously ?

I got the impression that the surveys were anonymous. They were used for statistical correlations and comparisons between kids who did and didn't participate in the program, as well as "before" and "after" assessments. In some of the schools they were given to random samples of students.

 

The seven topics the Challenge Day program focuses on are: "Relationship Skills, Respect & Safety, Bullying Reduction, Academic Skills, Loneliness Reduction, Emotional Expression, Substance Avoidance, and Low Substance Culture." I wouldn't personally have a problem with my child participating in that.

 

Jackie

[Miss Sherry]

I got the impression that the surveys were anonymous. They were used for statistical correlations and comparisons between kids who did and didn't participate in the program, as well as "before" and "after" assessments. In some of the schools they were given to random samples of students.

 

The seven topics the Challenge Day program focuses on are: "Relationship Skills, Respect & Safety, Bullying Reduction, Academic Skills, Loneliness Reduction, Emotional Expression, Substance Avoidance, and Low Substance Culture." I wouldn't personally have a problem with my child participating in that.

 

Jackie

I would have to take a closer look at the program to decide what I thought their agenda was. Right now in our society, I think there is a lot of propaganda happening to push children into certain s#xu@al orientations and to be brainwashed that it is a good thing. If you think any differently there is a push to being branded as intolerant. Having moral standards is NOT intolerant. But being mean to others with other views is intolerant. I don't want my children to be mean to others with other views than them, but I don't want them to be told they are intolerant if they consider certain s@xual orientations to be immoral. You can think something is immoral and still be kind to people in that lifestyle.

[Miss Sherry]

I got the impression that the surveys were anonymous. They were used for statistical correlations and comparisons between kids who did and didn't participate in the program, as well as "before" and "after" assessments. In some of the schools they were given to random samples of students.

 

The seven topics the Challenge Day program focuses on are: "Relationship Skills, Respect & Safety, Bullying Reduction, Academic Skills, Loneliness Reduction, Emotional Expression, Substance Avoidance, and Low Substance Culture." I wouldn't personally have a problem with my child participating in that.

 

Jackie

I would definitely want to know whether or not it was anonymous. There is so much information being stored about people. Do you really want extremely personal information about your child to end up stored for others to access at a later date, perhaps even years later ?

[joannqn]

I have no idea why the link didn't work. Here's another try.

 

ETA: I tested the link and it works for me.

[Carrie12345]

I'm a fan of the program, but not a big fan of the question. If I had advanced notice, I'd advise my own 12yo to mark "prefer not to answer". I wouldn't have him miss out on the program just because of the question.

[Renee in NC]

It sounds like the survey forms were anonymous, demographic-data-gathering type forms, and there was a "prefer not to say" option (not to mention the fact that any student who wanted to hide their orientation could just check the straight option). It wouldn't bother me at all, and I think the idea of the anti-bullying program is a good one. I also find it hard to believe that there are many 12-14 yo's in PS who don't know what "gay" means. :confused:

 

Jackie

 

My 12yo who has never been in ps knows what gay means. I don't know that he would know what "straight" means, though!:lol:

[Snickerdoodle]

:eek:

 

From the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals Fields v. Palmdale School District:

 

"We conclude only that the parents are possessed of no constitutional right to prevent the public schools from providing information on [the subject of sex] to their students in any forum or manner they select."

 

Further, they said that

 

"the right [of parents to control the upbringing of their children] does not extend beyond the threshold of the school door."

 

[DarlaS]

I have no idea why the link didn't work. Here's another try.

 

ETA: I tested the link and it works for me.

 

The first link (in the original post) linked to somewhere in the forum. Sort of...

 

You can probably still edit it.

[NicksMama-Zack's Mama Too]

It's none of their business.

 

I've taught my children that people may ask questions, but they have a right to not answer them.

 

It's about boundaries.

[NanceXToo]

No, I wouldn't be happy about my 12yo being asked that, and I am fairly liberal. Apart from anything else, it is absolutely none of thier business.

 

This.

[Farrar]

It actually sounds like a wonderful program. Given the program's nature, I can see why this would be pertinent information (acceptance, tearing down walls, etc), HOWEVER, I'm not sure the age group they are targeting would even understand what that question is asking, kwim?

 

Seriously? If a kid is gay and hasn't been almost completely shielded from the world we live in, then they've got a pretty good idea by age 12, even if they're not sure or ready to accept or talk about it on a personal level yet.

 

There was a prefer not to answer box, so I don't see a problem with it. Schools have to accept that these kids are out there and that they sometimes face relentless bullying. I think the suicides of the last few weeks have helped show the nation that. Any comprehensive bullying program must include an open discussion about GLBTQ kids, IMO.

 

Bracing for flaming I'll probably not see because I'm headed out of town...

[Pamela H in Texas]

I'm not sure that MY 12yr olds would have had a clue. Honestly, based on how the question is stated, I'm not sure my 18yo could give an answer NOW as they forgot a whole group of people (which is what she came up with once I just asked her). My 15yo could answer.

 

However, we all agree that 1) they have no business asking 12yos because many should not have even explored the question yet, but mostly 2) it's none of their business.

 

I don't think that it is necessary for kids to come out in jr high for an anti-bullying campaign. ALL of these kinds of things can be addressed without the school knowing these and other personal things, especially as kids are just developing. Many do not *know* their belief, themselves, etc and it is their parent's job (and the other people the child/family chooses) to guide them through these things.

Edited October 6, 2010 by 2J5M9K

[freethinkermama]

Seriously? If a kid is gay and hasn't been almost completely shielded from the world we live in, then they've got a pretty good idea by age 12, even if they're not sure or ready to accept or talk about it on a personal level yet.

 

There was a prefer not to answer box, so I don't see a problem with it. Schools have to accept that these kids are out there and that they sometimes face relentless bullying. I think the suicides of the last few weeks have helped show the nation that. Any comprehensive bullying program must include an open discussion about GLBTQ kids, IMO.

 

Bracing for flaming I'll probably not see because I'm headed out of town...

 

:iagree:

 

I bet if Christian kids were killing themselves at an alarming rate more would be being done. Churches would be rising up, calling for compassion and love and tolerance But since these are gay kids (and we don't actually know they weren't Christian, I'm just saying) . . . . well. In fact, just the opposite happened with one large church body.

 

Also, someone mentioned that organizations are trying to "push" homosexuality. I find that quite funny as gays will tell you they didn't choose to be gay. If you can't choose to be gay, you can't make anyone else be gay. Why would they even try? That's so disingenuous.

I also realize this will fall on deaf-ears, but I just couldn't let that sad statement stand.

 

My kids could answer that questionnaire or opt out of that question. If it's a private, demographic survey, why not? I think teaching people not to bully is a good thing. Clearly, we need more of that.

[MotherGoose]

NO A child that young hasn't figured that out anyway if it differs from the norm. And what child would admit it if they had? Based on my experience as a junior-high kid 20 something years ago anyway :)

[creekland]

Middle school? No, I wouldn't think that's a good question to ask. I simply don't think kids that age need to be putting themselves into any sort of box. I have no problem with their teaching tolerance of all sorts (tolerance is a good thing IMO), but not having the kids put themselves into those sorts of boxes at that age.

 

If it were 11th or 12th grade I wouldn't consider it as much of a problem, but I'm still not 100% convinced it would be necessary.

[Pamela H in Texas]

BTW, this newest situation, the 13yo 8th grader, told his father the day before he died that he thought he might be gay (ie, based off what the father said, this was not an ongoing issue or even a solidified belief). The bullying he was receiving had nothing to do with his sexual orientation or choices (and they can be two different things). He had extensive bullying problems in that school according to his parents and according to the school, he had post traumatic stress over another situation before he even started attending that school. So it is quite a stretch to make his situation about sexual orientation (though that is what some have done).

 

Now, the Rutger's kid was absolutely about sexual orientation and choices. But those weren't 12yos! That situation is very very sad though.

[freethinkermama]

BTW, this newest situation, the 13yo 8th grader, told his father the day before he died that he thought he might be gay (ie, based off what the father said, this was not an ongoing issue or even a solidified belief). The bullying he was receiving had nothing to do with his sexual orientation or choices (and they can be two different things). He had extensive bullying problems in that school according to his parents and according to the school, he had post traumatic stress over another situation before he even started attending that school. So it is quite a stretch to make his situation about sexual orientation (though that is what some have done).

 

Now, the Rutger's kid was absolutely about sexual orientation and choices. But those weren't 12yos! That situation is very very sad though.

 

In the last three weeks:

 

Cody Barker, age 17, of Shiocton, Wisconsin; Asher Brown, age 13, of Houston, Texas; Seth Walsh, age 13, of Tehachapi, California; Tyler Clementi, age 18, Raymond Chase, age 19, a student in Providence, Rhode Island. Justin Aaberg, age 15, of Anoka, Minnesota, and Billy Lucas, age 15, of Greensburg, Indiana.

 

 

Yes, I'm sure being gay had absolutely nothing to do with these young men and boys taking their lives in the past month. Certainly our culture is nothing but open and compassionate to gay people, and doesn't spread lies about them. I definitely can't see how anyone could make these connections.

Edited October 6, 2010 by freethinkermama
giving time table

[IsabelC]

I would be fine with this question being asked, providing the option of "unsure or prefer not to say" is there and providing that the responses are kept confidential.

[Pamela H in Texas]

duplicate

Edited October 6, 2010 by 2J5M9K

[Pamela H in Texas]

Yes, I'm sure being gay had absolutely nothing to do with these young men and boys taking their lives in the past month. Certainly our culture is nothing but open and compassionate to gay people, and doesn't spread lies about them. I definitely can't see how anyone could make these connections.

 

Lovely attitude there <sigh>. I agree with you regarding the Rutger's kid and disagree regarding Asher Brown based on what he, his parents, and the school said. I am not in a position to say anything about any other child as I have not been exposed to their stories. I also did not say ANYTHING in my post regarding these two kids that says anything about our culture (which I agree is terribly unfriendly).

 

I don't want to just accept that one or two sentences from a news story is telling the whole story. The news I have seen about Asher wants to tie it to his sexuality also, but then the evidence in the piece show otherwise. That sort of thing happens all the time because it makes a good story. There is a news story about how a Jehovah Witness mother won't let her toddler daughter have surgery that will save her life. However, if you listen to the story, getting past the title and subtitle of a piece, it is clear from the mother and the professionals that she simply wants the child to have the surgery at a different hospital so the child will not have to have a blood transfusion and the risks associated with that. It is the same with this. It's one thing to buy the news saying it's because Asher was gay, but none of the evidence in their own piece, shows that to be the case.

 

ETA (in response to Dot's post): regarding Asher Brown again. Calling someone gay, teasing them, assuming they are gay, etc does not make it so. The child wasn't sure himself based on his own words. No one could have bullied him for BEING gay. When I was in high school, I was teased for being gay too. People made comments about my best friend and me in all sorts of ways because of how we looked together. They didn't bully me for BEING gay though because I wasn't (and neither was best friend). And even if we had been, we didn't know it and/or weren't out so they still couldn't have bullied us for being gay. And again, that doesn't take away all the other stuff Asher was dealing with. He was bullied for all sorts of things and he had things going on before he ever got to that school.

Edited October 6, 2010 by 2J5M9K

[MaryElizabeth]

HORRORS!

[freethinkermama]

Being ugly is supposed to make you look smarter? What on earth did I say anyway (not that I'm taking responsibility for you being nasty because I most certainly will not)? I agreed with you regarding the Rutger's kid and disagree regarding Asher Brown based on what he, his parents, and the school said. I am not in a position to say anything about any other child as I have not been exposed to their stories.

 

I'm sorry, I wasn't meaning you, Pamela. I meant in general.

 

It's all I hear:

Gay people choose to be gay.

Gay people are dangerous to children.

Gay people don't kill themselves.

 

I didn't mean to quote you and make it seem as if I were reacting to you.

 

I'm reacting to everyone who is ugly to gay people and make this an impossible place for them to live.

 

My apologies. I'll leave this thread. You can be the smart one here.

[Mimm]

I'm not sure if this is a school-wide program or an opt-in event. If it is a school-wide program, I know that parents don't really have a legal right to pull their kids from it.

 

From the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals Fields v. Palmdale School District:

 

"We conclude only that the parents are possessed of no constitutional right to prevent the public schools from providing information on [the subject of sex] to their students in any forum or manner they select."

 

Further, they said that

 

"the right [of parents to control the upbringing of their children] does not extend beyond the threshold of the school door."

 

While this is an anti-bullying program, if sex and sexual orientation is part of the program, I would think it would fall under this court decision.

 

:blink: That is just mind boggling.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

In short - No. I don't believe this is appropriate for that age group.

[Laurie4b]

It's none of their business.

 

I've taught my children that people may ask questions' date=' but they have a right to not answer them.

 

It's about boundaries.[/quote']

 

Wise.

[Annie G]

Have you seen any of the episodes of this on tv? I have seen two. There's no way I would have wanted my kids going to this when they were in middle school. They have kids behind a line and they give situations and ask the kids to cross the line if they or anyone they love have ever experienced it...and then they ask about sexual orientation, rape, drug use, domestic violence, etc. I think the survey is used to determine what areas they want to focus on. I was stunned when they asked who had ever had serious thoughts about suicide (or a family member/loved one who had thoughts or went through with it) and well over half the kids crossed the line.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Annie,

 

Are they the same people? I think the exercise is appropriate for the age group I saw on tv (jrs and srs, I think). It went on to show them going to talk to the freshman class to encourage them to not be ugly to one another.

 

There is a huge difference between 16 and 18yos and 12yr olds though. Maybe their idea is that they could stop the issue sooner so that not so many 17yos were so hurt by life, classmates, etc?

 

Of course, then the issue is whether or not this is appropriate for SCHOOL. I'm mixed on that. Social and emotional issues most certainly cause problems with learning. So then maybe schools should focus on it so that kids can get on with learning. But taking time from school for it is taking away from the opportunity to learn academics which is why I would send my kids if I did send them. I'm not keen on THAT.

[Barry Goldwater]

To the OP...I would NOT be OK with this...It's not the school's job. Of course we've HSed since day one, so it's not my problem.

 

This comes directly from BHO's Education Secretary, who used to run Chicago's schools...their educational performance standard are atrocious, so of course he got promoted...The 'anti-bullying' program is cover for pushing a radical social agenda, nothing more...

 

Kids get bullied for many more reasons than 'orientation.'

[NanceXToo]

Because murderers might tell you they don't choose to be murderers either, but we as a society realize that murdering isn't a decent thing to do. That is a fair comparison for people that believe homosexual behavior is just as immoral as murdering.

 

Oh yeah. That's a REAL "fair" comparison. Because killing somebody is totally the same as finding yourself loving somebody that others don't approve of, just because of what body parts they have. God, I HATE attitudes like that. They make me very proud and glad to be the secular, accepting (and still perfectly moral) person I am.

[cin]

It actually sounds like a wonderful program. Given the program's nature, I can see why this would be pertinent information (acceptance, tearing down walls, etc), HOWEVER, I'm not sure the age group they are targeting would even understand what that question is asking, kwim?

 

 

I sure wouldn't have understood the question at that age. And if I'd gone home and asked my mom, I'd probably had my mouth washed out with soap. AFTER she regained consciousness. :svengo:

[cin]

"Besides I am sure more than one child will say they are homosexuals just for fun." That's probably what will happen.

:tongue_smilie:

 

 

And then, possibly get pushed into that niche. Not necessarily in a mean way, but still, like the self-fullfilling prophecy. The Pygmalion thing.

 

I'm still a big fan of parents educating their children, so I'm a bit old fashioned ;) . But by the same token, I think parents should educate their children to NOT be be bullies.

[Impish]

No, I wouldn't be happy about my 12yo being asked that, and I am fairly liberal. Apart from anything else, it is absolutely none of thier business.

Bingo.

 

You can easily run the program without the questionnaire. They're simply being nosy, imo.

[patchfire]

It actually sounds like a wonderful program. Given the program's nature, I can see why this would be pertinent information (acceptance, tearing down walls, etc), HOWEVER, I'm not sure the age group they are targeting would even understand what that question is asking, kwim?

 

I think that they would understand the question in the strictest terms, but I'm not sure all 12 year olds have enough self awareness to KNOW their orientation.

 

Seriously? If a kid is gay and hasn't been almost completely shielded from the world we live in, then they've got a pretty good idea by age 12, even if they're not sure or ready to accept or talk about it on a personal level yet.

 

I think there are potentially plenty of kids who would not be sure or have a good sense of their orientation, gender identity, etc. by age 12. Goodness. I'd hate to think we all have to be that self-aware that early. Sure, there's a lot of openness on some level, but there are also a lot of pressures for kids to keep things at a subconscious level.

[Dayle in Guatemala]

So funny...I know the sister of the founders really well! She's one of my dearest friends.

 

Anyway, that said, I don't feel comfortable with it. Here's why...even if on that particular day all the kids are feeling warm and fuzzy and the environment of safety has been created and some kids start to feel like they can be honest about who they are, that doesn't mean that in a week after all is said and done that won't be used against them at some point.

 

Bullying goes deeper than just something that can be fixed in one day, one weekend, or one really great program. It's something that comes from so deep within--a sense of insecurity, or entitlement, or anger that has been rooted there for some time.

 

The only way I see something like this working is if there is an on-going presence of people on campus committed to following up with what was started during Challenge Day. I know that's their intention, to have staff or volunteers from the school to continue following up. Teachers are overwhelmed as it is, staff is just trying to keep the school going, and a lot of parents are overwhelmed as well.

 

 

All that to say, I wouldn't opt to have my child participate. I teach my kids at home about how to treat others, I hope to create a safe home environment for my kids to be who they are, I hope to raise compassionate, loving, courageous people who will stand up for what's right no matter what.