The lyrics to this song is profoundly disturbing.

[shinyhappypeople]

I'd blame that on the parents though, not the performers, as some seem intent on doing. The parents need to monitor these things on their end, not just expect radio stations to censor their music to protect every child with unattentive parents.

 

Except that radio stations and performers actively market themselves to kids. That doesn't absolve the parents of responsibility at all, but I don't buy that performers and/or radio stations have zero responsibility to their younger listeners.

[rookie]

I had not heard this song and know nothing of eminem or rihana prior to just now when i watched the video on you tube. here's what i think:

 

musically -it's really not very good

 

lyrically - it does not do a good job of being a metaphor or of persuading its demographics to reject DV

 

visually - it is a boring video

 

it may not glorify DV for the over 40 crowd but I think it definitely does for younger generations who are all about feelings and passion and angst. they see it, it's good enough for celebs, they do it.

 

sick & sad & so mediocre to boot!

[Gwenhwyfar]

If there'd been such a thing as forums (or the internet at all!) when I was a kid, I bet my folks would have been on there ranting about the lyrics in my music too. :tongue_smilie:

[Tea Time]

:iagree: It's an artistic expression of "the dirty dance." The cycle of abuse that involves not only the abuser, but also the victim. It is disturbing. It is supposed to be disturbing. Whether or not it is helpful to the cause isn't the point. Music at its core is an expression of the pain (or joy, but in this case pain), not a solution to the problem. Sometimes a song comes along that expresses a solution, but most of what you hear is the deep emotion that is connected with the problem. It's the reason that even as a Christian, I could never walk away from secular music. I never want to lose touch with the emotions and experiences that go hand in hand with living in this world.

:iagree:

Well put!

 

I LOVE Christian music, and it has gotten me through some unbelievably tough times, but I never want to forget what it is like to be apart from that grace, and I guess secular music is a good reminder for me. Also, I find it very interesting how it was secular music that planted some seeds that came to a very different fruit in my life than what those artists may have intended. Pink Floyd was one of my favorite groups back in the day, and I am quite sure it planted some homeschooling seeds ("We don't need no education..."). Who'd of thunk it??? Honestly, after that group, these poor artists just have no where to go. Which can be said even more fundamentally of artists coming after the Classical musicians. Maybe they were just doomed to mediocrity. *Sigh*

 

I like the song. And I think a lot of people forget that the purpose of art isn't to make you feel happy- it's to make you feel. The song definitely evokes a lot of emotion and discussion from people, so in my opinion, job well done. If the song was about a woman who hated her abuser and got away as soon as she could, I doubt we'd all be sitting around talking about it.

 

Like this one from Martina McBride? It has a solution.... :001_huh:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9tUJxgHkA8

 

But I am not even going to listen to this song much less watch the video. I do try to steer clear of a lot of musical junk, especially if it is likely to stick in my head; and they are blasphemous for using the names of Superman and Lois Lane in this context. For shame!

[grace'smom]

I don't know, I'd consider the Twilight books more of a threat. Teens are smart enough, I think, to realize that this song depicts an unhealthy relationship. Maybe the song will even help a few people avoid a relationship like this by simply being able to recognize it. The Twilight books, on the other hand, make controlling, unhealthy relationships seem so... appealing.

 

Only somewhat related, I know, but I thought I'd throw that out there.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Audrey]

I'll be the odd man out. I love the song. (I also love pretty much all of Eminem's stuff, but that's beside the point.)

 

To me, it's an expression of how intense abuse is. It details the unchanging actions of the abuser, even when they genuinely intend to change. It describes the defeatedness of the abused. It's not a song of advocacy. It's a song of reality and truth, and Rhianna is the current face and voice for awareness. When I listen to it, I hear the pain.

 

Which isn't to say that young (or older) people will interpret it that way.

 

:iagree: I like the song, too.

 

Domestic violence isn't as cut and dried as people would like to think. It is 2 people within a complex situation. It think the song (haven't seen the video) describes it quite well -- the cycle of abuse, promises, lies, reconciliation, the toxicity of some people when they are together and the longing to be together even when they probably shouldn't be. There's no sugar-coating, but neither is it played out in black and white.

 

As far as Rhianna goes... She's a big girl who obviously made the choice to do the song with Eminem. I seriously doubt anyone forced her to do it. I think it's a great pairing and she is a singer capable of emoting the lyrics very well.

[Guest ME-Mommy]

WOW...just...WOW...:blink::crying:

 

(and once again I am reminded of how incredibly sheltered and naive I am...and I like it that way!!)

 

The lyrics are VERY disturbing...I can't imagine *WHY* someone felt the need to write and perform such a piece of...I can't say what I'm thinking..

 

:leaving:

[justamouse]

I love Eminem. All of his songs. His honesty as an artist and a human are so raw-they're like a Jackson Pollock painting.

 

Those lyrics, they're a magnifying glass, they're there to MAKE you horrified. You should be, and the people who abuse should be. It's saying, "Look at this, this is messed up, look how sick this is."

Edited August 26, 2010 by justamouse

[justamouse]

I'll be the odd man out. I love the song. (I also love pretty much all of Eminem's stuff, but that's beside the point.)

 

To me, it's an expression of how intense abuse is. It details the unchanging actions of the abuser, even when they genuinely intend to change. It describes the defeatedness of the abused. It's not a song of advocacy. It's a song of reality and truth, and Rhianna is the current face and voice for awareness. When I listen to it, I hear the pain.

 

Which isn't to say that young (or older) people will interpret it that way.

 

I'll be the odd man out with you. I love a lot of Eminem's songs, including that one. That doesn't mean I'll let my young children listen to it. I think he's amazingly talented, even though his lyrics (obviously) aren't for everyone! :D

 

If there'd been such a thing as forums (or the internet at all!) when I was a kid, I bet my folks would have been on there ranting about the lyrics in my music too. :tongue_smilie:

 

I like the song. And I think a lot of people forget that the purpose of art isn't to make you feel happy- it's to make you feel. The song definitely evokes a lot of emotion and discussion from people, so in my opinion, job well done. If the song was about a woman who hated her abuser and got away as soon as she could, I doubt we'd all be sitting around talking about it.

 

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:(loving Mergath, especially)

[Daisy]

I guess I just wonder if the teens who have heard this song 150 times are still horrified by it? I have a hard time believing that repeated exposure to a song like this is going to produce teens who are changed for the better.

 

I have no problem feeling the full range of human emotions. I don't have to expose myself to the worse mankind has to offer in order to jolt myself into an emotion.

[WarriorMama]

I don't know, I'd consider the Twilight books more of a threat. Teens are smart enough, I think, to realize that this song depicts an unhealthy relationship. Maybe the song will even help a few people avoid a relationship like this by simply being able to recognize it. The Twilight books, on the other hand, make controlling, unhealthy relationships seem so... appealing.

 

Only somewhat related, I know, but I thought I'd throw that out there.

 

:iagree:

 

I am SO glad I'm not the only one who feels this way about Twilight! I was beginning to think the whole world had gone insane...(or that I had).

[Dana]

I have no problem feeling the full range of human emotions. I don't have to expose myself to the worse mankind has to offer in order to jolt myself into an emotion.

 

But it can be cathartic too.

 

For instance, lately if I've been in a cranky mood for a while, listening to Sweeney Todd does a pretty good job of cheering me up. (Especially when cooking! :D)

[Carrie12345]

I guess I just wonder if the teens who have heard this song 150 times are still horrified by it? I have a hard time believing that repeated exposure to a song like this is going to produce teens who are changed for the better.

 

I have no problem feeling the full range of human emotions. I don't have to expose myself to the worse mankind has to offer in order to jolt myself into an emotion.

 

I'd like to think that most teens are intelligent enough to process this sort of thing adequately. If they're not, I think something must have been missing from their upbringing, or they're lacking some sort of "normal" compass.

 

I know that, regardless of how many times they re-read ancient history books, my children don't appear to be desensitized to the concepts of war, religious oppression, pillaging, or any other grotesque acts of those sorts.

 

I also know that I spent my teen years listening to Guns n Roses, Poison, Ozzy, and a ton of other groups with sexist, sex-driven, violent lyrics, and I've never had any hint of danger in any of my relationships.

[Daisy]

I'd like to think that most teens are intelligent enough to process this sort of thing adequately. If they're not, I think something must have been missing from their upbringing, or they're lacking some sort of "normal" compass.

 

 

 

I might would agree with you if the teen was only listening to the song once or twice and examined it as a mental exercise. It is something entirely different to listen to it over and over and over again.

 

I think this is one of those areas where people just disagree. I'm never going to be in the camp that thinks a person (regardless of their age) can listen to hours of horrible music, read stacks of trashy books, and watch hours of violent television and not be impacted by it. I don't really think it has anything to do with your intelligence or your upbringing. I think it has everything to do with conditioning.

 

We readily admit on this board to being positively impacted by the various books, videos, movies, and articles we read. Why do we have such a problem in admitting the possibility of negative impact?

 

But we've had that conversation many times on this forum.

[Tea Time]

I guess I just wonder if the teens who have heard this song 150 times are still horrified by it? I have a hard time believing that repeated exposure to a song like this is going to produce teens who are changed for the better.

 

I have no problem feeling the full range of human emotions. I don't have to expose myself to the worse mankind has to offer in order to jolt myself into an emotion.

 

Ah! Last night I underlined this passage from The Other Hand by Chris Cleave, which I am reading because my dd suggested it (hope it is a good read). It says something similar to what you just said.

 

"Horror in your country is something you take a dose of to remind yourself that you are not suffering from it." (The country referenced is Great Britain.)

 

The sad thing to me is not that kids listen to this stuff. I can see the value in it IF they have exposure to other things, higher things, that help them process this more base art form. It is lost on them if they do not have that contrast, and I do think it will harm them if not countered by something or someone carrying a better message. And for a lot of kids, that definitely is not happening.

[justamouse]

I'd like to think that most teens are intelligent enough to process this sort of thing adequately. If they're not, I think something must have been missing from their upbringing, or they're lacking some sort of "normal" compass.

 

I know that, regardless of how many times they re-read ancient history books, my children don't appear to be desensitized to the concepts of war, religious oppression, pillaging, or any other grotesque acts of those sorts.

 

I also know that I spent my teen years listening to Guns n Roses, Poison, Ozzy, and a ton of other groups with sexist, sex-driven, violent lyrics, and I've never had any hint of danger in any of my relationships.

 

well said.

 

I don't know, I'd consider the Twilight books more of a threat. .

 

 

:iagree:

 

[quote name=Ester Maria;1987067

 

Personally I choose to allow most of it' date=' but to talk it through. My reasoning is that I'm only feeding the beast and creating a "forbidden fruit syndrom" if I forbid it all, but yeah, teens can be tough with regards to their musical choices. I suppose they need this type of strong emotions in their lives, and even though I'm not sure it's very healthy for them to listen to exclusively such a content and identify with it too much, I decided not to panic as long as I see my kids' repertory is a balanced one, including actual music in addition to stuff like my first link or the one from the first post.

 

Exactly. Dd loves Debussy as much as she loves Eminem.

 

I listened to all that stuff when I was a kid and my Mom flipped out on me. Now she admits she was totally overreacting ( i was in marching band and loved classical just as much as I love-and still love-Led Zepplin.)

 

I can't figure out why the quote formatting is funky-the html is right-sorry

[Mommy22alyns]

I like the song too, though I would never let my girls hear it at their current ages. Yes, Eminem is disturbing, but I agree with PP - it's purposeful. Tea Time, very interesting thoughts.

[Jenny in Atl]

It's the Lost & Flash Forward Dude! :lol:

In the video that is...

[NanceXToo]

Of course, some of the BOOKS I read as a teen were probably way more disturbing than any of the LYRICS I ever listened to.

 

Flowers In The Attic by VC Andrews?

The Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood?

 

:)

[hornblower]

The Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood?

 

:)

 

Oh - I LOVE that book.

 

I wouldn't put it in this category at all.

[NanceXToo]

I love that book too! But... Why wouldn't it be in the same category?

[KidsHappen]

I haven't read the whole thread but am I the only one who noticed it won the Teen Choice Award this year? Really the TEEN award? Good grief! I listened to some pretty crazy stuff as a teen but I can guarantee that would have made my stomach turn. I don't think I could have watched the video either.

 

Yeah, I noticed. :glare: Several other awards as well. There is quite a bit of controversy. Hopefully, it is also creating a lot of dialog about the issue.

[pqr]

Eminem......honestly what did you expect?

[micheller1]

I'm kinda late coming into this post (8 pages later) and I am a fan of Eminem, and my kids (older ones) do listen to censored versions of his some of his music....

 

I don't think he attempts to glorify DV - he says in the song, he feels ashamed, that he laid hands on her and he'll never stoop so low again, he talks about another chance but falling into the same habits, same routines...

 

to me it's about toxicity. that neither can see how toxic they are to each other, hence the drug references.

 

i think a lot of people can relate to relationships such as these. Whether they escalate to the point of domestic violence or not, most at some point or another are in a relationship that somehow gets beyond their control.

 

For me, this song opened the door (again) to discuss healthy relationships with my kids.

 

My kids have friends who have parents who are like these people in the video - it's not like this isn't a reality. Sometimes it's these types of outlets that open the door to conversations.

[Nakia]

One word: INTENSE!!

[kalanamak]

It has been #1 in the charts six weeks running. The video is equally disturbing and the fact that Rihanna is a abuse victim herself makes it almost unbearable. .

 

I can hear my mother: Some people will do anything for money.

I can hear my father: When you have no talent and no taste, shock is all you have left.

[In2why]

I like the song. And I think a lot of people forget that the purpose of art isn't to make you feel happy- it's to make you feel. The song definitely evokes a lot of emotion and discussion from people, so in my opinion, job well done. If the song was about a woman who hated her abuser and got away as soon as she could, I doubt we'd all be sitting around talking about it.

 

 

YES YES YES!

I was in a violent intense relationship when I was younger and it was exactly like that video. The highest highs and the lowest lows. Victims of abuse are never responsible for the abuse but it becomes a sick symbiotic relationship. I can understand now that it had nothing to do with love. But then.....there were days when I thought the only way it would end was with one of us dead.

[In2why]

Yeah, I noticed. :glare: Several other awards as well. There is quite a bit of controversy. Hopefully, it is also creating a lot of dialog about the issue.

 

 

I hope so too. I also know from my work with domestic violence that teen dating relationships are rife with abuse. There is a great program called P.A.I.R that works with the schools to help young ladies recognize the signs of abuse before it become physical. Sadly some people think that the intensity and possessiveness are a sign of love.

[Corraleno]

The thing I find disturbing about stuff like this — whether it's a song or a film or a book (like Twilight) — is much more subtle than just the idea that domestic violence exists/is bad. It's the rather pervasive idea that these kinds of feelings — this passionate need to possess and control someone, the sense that you can't possibly exist without this other person — are a normal (even desirable) part of being in love. I think it sends teens the message that jealousy and possessiveness and need are actually "proof" that someone really loves you. When teenage girls (and women) get trapped in abusive relationships, it's not because they don't understand that the abuse is wrong, it's because they mistakenly believe that the abuse is just an inappropriate expression of the abuser's love — i.e., he beats me when I try to leave because he needs me and can't live without me.

 

I think the whole paradigm needs to shift, so what what is considered sick and unhealthy is not just the result (domestic violence) but the entire emotional package that tends to accompany it: jealousy, possessiveness, neediness, control, etc. When women start to clearly recognize those traits for what they are, rather than romanticizing them as signs of overwhelming love and passion, then they'll be much less likely to fall for the excuses and promises that it "won't happen again."

 

Jackie

[asta]

I have read none of the replies to this thread.

 

The Last Psychiatrist (who is actually a psychiatrist - go figure) has written an excellent analysis of this song on his blog. It is a bit long, but I think it is absolutely to the point. The final line?

 

Maybe this song doesn't speak to you, fine, okay, but trust me on this: there is someone who is hearing it, and if you are hearing it, it's for you.

 

 

asta

[Joanne]

I love Eminem. All of his songs. His honesty as an artist and a human are so raw-they're like a Jackson Pollock painting.

 

Those lyrics, they're a magnifying glass, they're there to MAKE you horrified. You should be, and the people who abuse should be. It's saying, "Look at this, this is messed up, look how sick this is."

 

:iagree:

 

I

definitely should have tried to word the above better. So much for multi-tasking!

The psychology of abuse is way too complex for lil ol' me to boil down. I do feel it's represented well in the song. And the fact that so many find it disturbing is a GOOD thing. Like a pp mentioned, happily remarking "Wow, that sounds like us" is NOT healthy.

 

Personally, I don't think music should be expected to always have a happy ending, any more than the evening news should be expected to. It is what it is.

 

:iagree:

 

I think the song accurately depicts in contemporary form the complexity of toxic, abusive relationships (that are exacerbated by drugs/alcohol).

 

We are "fans" of Eminem as well. We are *informed* and *engaged* fans. we talk about him, the lyrics, the music, the anger. While I find much of his stuff disturbing, I also find them insightful, provocative and sometimes even brilliant. I hope he completely recovers from his drug addiciton.

 

And I hope Rhianna completely recovers and heals from the abuse dynamic.

 

Someday, my kids will see my marriage to their Dad in that song.

[Greta]

I don't have to expose myself to the worse mankind has to offer in order to jolt myself into an emotion.

 

I've just read this whole thread, and this gets my vote for most insightful comment. :)

 

My own, far less eloquent comment...

 

This song is about addiction: addiction to intense emotions. This kind of addiction is just as unhealthy and destructive as any other kind of addiction. And as people have said here, the song provokes those emotions in the listeners. So personally I don't find the song to be "honest" or "artistic" at all. I find it self-indulgent.

 

I like to indulge in a glass of red wine on occasion. But if I were an alcoholic, that indulgence would be a poison. For people in toxic relationships or who have a tendency towards them, I fear this song would be like poison. It may make you feel good when you drink it, or listen to it, but what is it really doing to you?

[Joanne]

For people in toxic relationships or who have a tendency towards them, I fear this song would be like poison. It may make you feel good when you drink it, or listen to it, but what is it really doing to you?

 

It would depict their reality. The hyperbole in the song is a powerful artistic element about the topic. The absolute drama and crazyness *is* inherent in domestic violence.

 

Like literature and art, I don't think music needs to be the equivalent of Dr. Seuss.

 

Another contemporary music piece on the topic is Red Jumpsuit Apparatus' "Face Down": I think this is another powerful depiction and commentary on the dynamic.

 

Hey girl you know you drive me crazy.

One look put\'s the rhythm in my hand.

Still I\'ll never understand why you hang around

I see what\'s going down.

Cover-up with make-up in the mirror

Tell yourself it\'s never gonna happen again

You cry alone and then he swears he loves you.

 

Chorus:

 

Do you feel like a man

When you push her around?

Do you feel better now as she falls to the ground?

Well I\'ll tell you my friend one day this world\'s going to end

As your lies crumble down a new life she has found.

 

A pebble in the water makes a ripple effect

Every action in this world will bear a consequence

If you wade around forever you will surely drown

I see what\'s going down.

I see the way you go and say you\'re right again,

say you\'re right again,

heed my lecture

 

Chorus:

 

Do you feel like a man

When you push her around?

Do you feel better now as she falls to the ground?

Well I\'ll tell you my friend one day this worlds going to end

As your lies crumble down a new life she has found.

 

One day she will tell you that she has had enough

its coming round again.

 

Chorus:

Do you feel like a man

When you push her around?

Do you feel better now as she falls to the ground?

Well I\'ll tell you my friend one day this worlds going to end

As your lies crumble down a new life she has found.

[Greta]

Another contemporary music piece on the topic is Red Jumpsuit Apparatus' "Face Down": I think this is another powerful depiction and commentary on the dynamic.

 

Well, I've heard this song too, and to me, these two songs have a very different feeling to them. With Face Down I get a strong sense of disapproval of the abuse. That's what is frighteningly lacking from the other song. Rihanna's part in particular just seems like she's giving up, accepting the abuse because she's addicted to the intensity of the emotions in the relationship. That's the part that makes my skin crawl. That's the reason I don't want my 10 yo dd, who likes Rihanna, to listen to this song. That's the same reason I don't like Twilight. Our girls deserve better than these kinds of examples of relationships.

[Joanne]

Well, I've heard this song too, and to me, these two songs have a very different feeling to them. With Face Down I get a strong sense of disapproval of the abuse. That's what is frighteningly lacking from the other song. Rihanna's part in particular just seems like she's giving up, accepting the abuse because she's addicted to the intensity of the emotions in the relationship. That's the part that makes my skin crawl. That's the reason I don't want my 10 yo dd, who likes Rihanna, to listen to this song. That's the same reason I don't like Twilight. Our girls deserve better than these kinds of examples of relationships.

 

In Rhianna/Eminem's song, I don't hear acceptance. Clearly there is not resolution, healing, growth or progress. But I believe older kids NEED to know the dynamics of the abuse/battered partner syndrome. It's never as easy as "if he hits me, I leave".

 

I don't think Rhianna or Eminem are obligated as artists to present the resolution; they have captured the dynamic. It's a very real, very present, very disturbing dynamic.

 

Even if you don't like the song, please do talk to your older teens about the dynamic. I spent YEARS as an intelligent abused woman wondering why intelligent women stay.

[justamouse]

 

I think the song accurately depicts in contemporary form the complexity of toxic, abusive relationships (that are exacerbated by drugs/alcohol).

 

We are "fans" of Eminem as well. We are *informed* and *engaged* fans. we talk about him, the lyrics, the music, the anger. While I find much of his stuff disturbing, I also find them insightful, provocative and sometimes even brilliant. I hope he completely recovers from his drug addiciton.

 

And I hope Rhianna completely recovers and heals from the abuse dynamic.

.

 

Ohh double yes, head nod.

 

For people in toxic relationships or who have a tendency towards them, I fear this song would be like poison. It may make you feel good when you drink it, or listen to it, but what is it really doing to you?

 

I was in a very abusive relationship before I met my husband. I totally identify with the lyrics and it's a salve to hear them. It's OK to look back (or at the first time) to those things and see how healthy I am now. If people identify with them and see themselves in there-it's a wakeup call. It's not self indulgent, it's not an emotion addiction. I would suggest that people have a lot of waking up to do and that song is not the tip of the iceberg. I would posit that people run with their emotions on *dead* and as such are not horrified and want to work harder to make the world more peaceful when they watch the news. I would say that watching violence has numbed us to the point where people will walk down the street and watch a man die in front of them and not stop to help. I think we need a flipping HUGE emotional wake up. So if that song gives people the space enough to safely touch the subject? He's done his job as an artist.

[Joanne]

That's the same reason I don't like Twilight. Our girls deserve better than these kinds of examples of relationships.

 

I wanted to add that I agree, our children need healthy modeled relationships. They also need to know, sometimes explicitly, what unhealthy looks like. Popular media is a great way to reach teens for a wide variety of discussion.

[Nakia]

I'm not going back to find it, but I think Mergath said it best. She said something about music not being about making you feel good, but making you feel. When I watched the video (I had never heard of it until this thread), I was on the edge of my seat. It was so real and raw. My husband and I watched it together this evening. Our marriage started pretty rocky, not like the video, but I could see how it could get like that quick. We had some pretty intense love/hate going on. We got help, and we have healed from a lot of wounds that we BOTH inflicted.

 

If my girls were old enough to watch it, I would let them. It is unfortunately real life for many. I think it provides an awesome opportunity to let boys and girls know what life and relationships can be like. I hope and pray they never end up in that kind of relationship, of course. But the thing is if they are aware, maybe they can be understanding and a help to someone who is. Knowledge is power.

[Greta]

In Rhianna/Eminem's song, I don't hear acceptance. Clearly there is not resolution, healing, growth or progress.

 

But without healing, growth, or progress, (or, dare I say, repentance?) what is one left with? Acceptance. Implicitly if not explicity.

 

I don't think Rhianna or Eminem are obligated as artists to present the resolution; they have captured the dynamic. It's a very real, very present, very disturbing dynamic.

 

I really wasn't trying to speak to their obligations. But as a corollary, I would point out that I am not obligated to approve or respect their, um, "art". Yes, they captured what is ugly and dysfunctional and disturbing. Do they really deserve accolades for that? I don't think that takes any particular talent or insight, or deserves any respect. I think what's far more difficult, and what is therefore worthy of so many people taking note and paying attention to, is how one gets out of such a place of darkness, and finds the light.

 

Even if you don't like the song, please do talk to your older teens about the dynamic. I spent YEARS as an intelligent abused woman wondering why intelligent women stay.

 

I did talk to my daughter about the song, and about abusive relationships to the extent that I understand them. But I have to admit that I don't understand them, not fully. And I'm not sure that I want to, or that I want her to. I want her to know what *healthy* relationships are, so that's where I think the focus should be. Beyond that, I honestly don't know how to approach this with her, or how to protect her. The best I know to do is to TRY to model what is good, and limit her exposure to what is bad. If you have further insights to share, I would genuinely appreciate hearing them.

[asta]

I did talk to my daughter about the song, and about abusive relationships to the extent that I understand them. But I have to admit that I don't understand them, not fully. And I'm not sure that I want to, or that I want her to. I want her to know what *healthy* relationships are, so that's where I think the focus should be. Beyond that, I honestly don't know how to approach this with her, or how to protect her. The best I know to do is to TRY to model what is good, and limit her exposure to what is bad. If you have further insights to share, I would genuinely appreciate hearing them.

 

Which I think is the crux of the issue.

 

We can present what we believe to be *healthy* relationships all we want, but we are one voice among millions, and are drowned by the media (not to mention we are "the parents" and are, by default, hopelessly out of date and wrong on so many issues just by virtue of not being adolescents).

 

The comment about Twilight? So true. All one has to do is take a look at the reading material and movies being marketed to tweens and teens to see what how the concept of "love" has been warped into something not just unattainable, but not even of this world. From that point of view, it is not very difficult to see a young person taking the side step to an abusive relationship without realizing it is abnormal. Abnormal is the new normal anyway (vampires anyone?).

 

 

asta

[lionfamily1999]

Which I think is the crux of the issue.

 

We can present what we believe to be *healthy* relationships all we want, but we are one voice among millions, and are drowned by the media (not to mention we are "the parents" and are, by default, hopelessly out of date and wrong on so many issues just by virtue of not being adolescents).

 

The comment about Twilight? So true. All one has to do is take a look at the reading material and movies being marketed to tweens and teens to see what how the concept of "love" has been warped into something not just unattainable, but not even of this world. From that point of view, it is not very difficult to see a young person taking the side step to an abusive relationship without realizing it is abnormal. Abnormal is the new normal anyway (vampires anyone?).

 

 

asta

:iagree:

[ma23peas]

I've just read this whole thread, and this gets my vote for most insightful comment. :)

 

My own, far less eloquent comment...

 

This song is about addiction: addiction to intense emotions. This kind of addiction is just as unhealthy and destructive as any other kind of addiction. And as people have said here, the song provokes those emotions in the listeners. So personally I don't find the song to be "honest" or "artistic" at all. I find it self-indulgent.

 

I like to indulge in a glass of red wine on occasion. But if I were an alcoholic, that indulgence would be a poison. For people in toxic relationships or who have a tendency towards them, I fear this song would be like poison. It may make you feel good when you drink it, or listen to it, but what is it really doing to you?

:iagree:

 

For me, it's simple..we never listen to this music...I sincerely take Philippians 4:8 as a directive ...whatever is lovely, whatever is kind, whatever is noble....so much of our culture today does not fit within those parameters and is not worth our time.

[Margaret in GA]

I'll be the odd man out. I love the song. (I also love pretty much all of Eminem's stuff, but that's beside the point.)

 

To me, it's an expression of how intense abuse is. It details the unchanging actions of the abuser, even when they genuinely intend to change. It describes the defeatedness of the abused. It's not a song of advocacy. It's a song of reality and truth, and Rhianna is the current face and voice for awareness. When I listen to it, I hear the pain.

 

Which isn't to say that young (or older) people will interpret it that way.

 

yes. Exactly!:iagree:

[Margaret in GA]

I don't know, I'd consider the Twilight books more of a threat. Teens are smart enough, I think, to realize that this song depicts an unhealthy relationship. Maybe the song will even help a few people avoid a relationship like this by simply being able to recognize it. The Twilight books, on the other hand, make controlling, unhealthy relationships seem so... appealing.

 

Only somewhat related, I know, but I thought I'd throw that out there.

 

 

:iagree: Really good point.

Edited August 28, 2010 by Margaret in GA

[Greta]

I was in a very abusive relationship before I met my husband. I totally identify with the lyrics and it's a salve to hear them. It's OK to look back (or at the first time) to those things and see how healthy I am now. If people identify with them and see themselves in there-it's a wakeup call. It's not self indulgent, it's not an emotion addiction.

 

I'm glad that it is a positive song for you, and I hope you're right that it will affect others this way too. I truly do. It's hard for me to imagine that because the song feels so hopeless, so . . . stuck. But obviously I cannot begin to judge how it's going to affect everyone else. I only know that the effect it has on me is a feeling of powerlessness, so that's why I don't like it.

 

I would suggest that people have a lot of waking up to do and that song is not the tip of the iceberg. I would posit that people run with their emotions on *dead* and as such are not horrified and want to work harder to make the world more peaceful when they watch the news. I would say that watching violence has numbed us to the point where people will walk down the street and watch a man die in front of them and not stop to help. I think we need a flipping HUGE emotional wake up. So if that song gives people the space enough to safely touch the subject? He's done his job as an artist.

I see what you're saying, but I don't think the problem is being out of touch with emotions. I think people are far too IN touch with emotions like desire, fear, anger, hatred, jealousy, etc. The one emotion we are out of touch with is love, true selfless love (I'm not speaking of romantic love), compassion, agape. Personally I think the problem not so much that our emotions are dead, but that our empathy is dead.

 

I wanted to add that I agree, our children need healthy modeled relationships. They also need to know, sometimes explicitly, what unhealthy looks like. Popular media is a great way to reach teens for a wide variety of discussion.

 

I'm just not sure about that. I like what asta said . . .

 

Which I think is the crux of the issue.

 

We can present what we believe to be *healthy* relationships all we want, but we are one voice among millions, and are drowned by the media (not to mention we are "the parents" and are, by default, hopelessly out of date and wrong on so many issues just by virtue of not being adolescents).

 

The comment about Twilight? So true. All one has to do is take a look at the reading material and movies being marketed to tweens and teens to see what how the concept of "love" has been warped into something not just unattainable, but not even of this world. From that point of view, it is not very difficult to see a young person taking the side step to an abusive relationship without realizing it is abnormal. Abnormal is the new normal anyway (vampires anyone?).

 

 

I think our kids get plenty of ugly in this world. I know there are times when we need to shine a light on that ugly in order to show it for what it is, and protect our kids from it. But I think there are also many times when it is best to leave it in the dark, to protect their innocence. It's not always easy to know which is best in any given situation, I suppose. But when it comes to relationships, my instincts scream that I should surround my daughter with what is good and healthy, and therefore when she's exposed to what is not healthy, she will recognize it as something "other" or alien. But if she grows up steeped in what is dysfunctional, she'll think it's the norm. (Not that one song can accomplish that, of course! It's just one potential part of an atmosphere.)

 

 

For me, it's simple..we never listen to this music...I sincerely take Philippians 4:8 as a directive ...whatever is lovely, whatever is kind, whatever is noble....so much of our culture today does not fit within those parameters and is not worth our time.

 

Thank you so much for sharing this scripture! I've heard it said that a Classical education is a foundation in "the good, the true, and the beautiful". But this scripture is an even more powerful reminder of where our focus should be.

[hornblower]

I think the simple fact that there is so much controversy about it, that so many peope see it as glorifying dv instead of condemning it, means that it has failed (if that truly was its purpose - which honestly, I doubt)

[Greta]

I think the simple fact that there is so much controversy about it, that so many peope see it as glorifying dv instead of condemning it, means that it has failed (if that truly was its purpose - which honestly, I doubt)

 

I absolutely agree. But I think it lived up to it's intended purpose: to create controversy and cash.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

I think the simple fact that there is so much controversy about it, that so many peope see it as glorifying dv instead of condemning it, means that it has failed (if that truly was its purpose - which honestly, I doubt)

 

I absolutely agree. But I think it lived up to it's intended purpose: to create controversy and cash.

 

I have to agree with you both...and don't forget fame (or would that be notoriety).

[secular_mom]

I like it. I like that you can see Dominic's Elvish tattoo in the video (it's on his right arm). :)

[PiCO]

I don't know, I'd consider the Twilight books more of a threat. Teens are smart enough, I think, to realize that this song depicts an unhealthy relationship. Maybe the song will even help a few people avoid a relationship like this by simply being able to recognize it. The Twilight books, on the other hand, make controlling, unhealthy relationships seem so... appealing.

 

I totally agree with this.

 

I just watched the "I love the way you lie" video on YouTube. I don't think it glorifies abusive relationships at all. (It is disturbing, but I think it's supposed to be.)

 

There are plenty of songs I put on the X list for my teen, I don't think this will be one of them.