s/o - parents not trained to have routines in our culture?

[Jenny in GA]

If the "not wanting to spend time with your kids thread," a couple people said something I thought was interesting:

 

That homeschooling (usually) requires some planning and routine, and structure. And that in today's society, we don't usually have that -- and even more interestingly, that today's parents "don't know how to do that" or "haven't been trained to do that."

 

For instance, someone said, "in our culture, we really do not grow up with any sense of how to order our days."

 

I find that very interesting. Anyone care to discuss whether that's true, why it's true, and specifically what that looks like? And should we -- and how can we -- train our children (or ourselves!) to have those kinds of skills?

 

Jenny

[Ellie]

I don't know about culture in general, but *I* didn't have any training in that. I'm thinking it has much to do with the compulsory education in the U.S., where children are required to be in school from the time they are 5 or 6 years old, and so their whole "routine" consists of going to and coming home from school. They have little experience in actual real life.

 

Who knew?:lol:

 

I have routine *now,* but I didn't start out that way as a young mother.

[Food4Thought]

How interesting. It is a common complaint I hear from my friends with kids in PS - that the summers are so chaotic with no routine.

 

I wonder if we tend to rely on outside forces (jobs, schools, etc) to schedule our lives for us. I remember how lost I felt my first year out of college (after 18 straight years in the school system). I didn't know how to just be in a house without staring at a television.

 

I think it takes a deal of self-discipline to be able to look at the things required of a day and then make a plan to get through them all. If a parent is not used to being the one providing that discipline, and instead relies on another entity to plan for them, I can see how the skill can be lost.

 

I don't know how to fix it. For me, it was several years with FlyLady and the Getting Things Done system, ditching television as a sedative, and becoming interested in lifelong learning for myself. *shrug*

[Blueridge]

I bought Sonia Shafer's book Laying Down the Rails for precisely this reason. If left up to me, the only habits my children would have would be asking *when is meal time?*. :D Not really, but I needed some help in this department because I was never taught any habits but getting to school on time.

 

http://simplycharlottemason.com/books/laying-down-rails-charlotte-mason-habits/

[fairfarmhand]

How interesting. It is a common complaint I hear from my friends with kids in PS - that the summers are so chaotic with no routine.

 

I wonder if we tend to rely on outside forces (jobs, schools, etc) to schedule our lives for us. I remember how lost I felt my first year out of college (after 18 straight years in the school system). I didn't know how to just be in a house without staring at a television.

 

I think it takes a deal of self-discipline to be able to look at the things required of a day and then make a plan to get through them all. If a parent is not used to being the one providing that discipline, and instead relies on another entity to plan for them, I can see how the skill can be lost.

 

I don't know how to fix it. For me, it was several years with FlyLady and the Getting Things Done system, ditching television as a sedative, and becoming interested in lifelong learning for myself. *shrug*

 

 

this is IT exactly. I have working moms who are home on maternity leave or teaching moms off for the summer ask me questions about routines and making sure things get done. They go, how can I schedule the cleaning so we can spend Saturday just having fun with dh.

 

So many people rely on external things for structure (school, work) that they have no concept of how to make it work without those structures in place.

[OrganicAnn]

I agree that we Americans don't general have structure in our days as a culture. I remember coming back from a trip to Europe and it felt so liberating eating lunch when ever I wanted to, rather than in the 1 hour that was generally set aside for lunch in Europe. There are trade offs Freedom vs structure.

 

Several mentioned that as kids we had the structure of public school imposed on us. Do you think that the 'typical' (whatever that is) homeschool kids will fare any different? They have whatever structure or lack of structure of their parents. They may experience more freedom. Their schooling often crafted around them. Will it really give them more ability to order their days. What is it that helps kids learn to order their day? Is it more structure or less structure? I'm just wondering.

[Jenny in GA]

 

Several mentioned that as kids we had the structure of public school imposed on us. Do you think that the 'typical' (whatever that is) homeschool kids will fare any different? They have whatever structure or lack of structure of their parents. They may experience more freedom. Their schooling often crafted around them. Will it really give them more ability to order their days. What is it that helps kids learn to order their day? Is it more structure or less structure? I'm just wondering.

 

 

I was wondering the same thing. I tend to lean toward "more structure." But more "real" structure, not things like a hundred sports and church activities.

 

Also, people cite school and jobs as the cause of the problem, so to speak. But people have always had school and jobs ... well, for several generations, at least. If this is a recent phenomenon (and is it?), then it's got to be more specific than that.

 

It is interesting that FlyLady is as popular as it is. It's like women are desperate for being told something that, if you think about it, is pretty simple and basic -- clean the sink every night before you go to bed, get dressed as soon as you get up vaccuum every Monday. I would imagine (although I don't know) that people from seventy would have been puzzled to hear that anyone was clamoring for a book that would tell them this. But maybe not?

 

Jenny

[silliness7]

 

For instance, someone said, "in our culture, we really do not grow up with any sense of how to order our days."

 

 

 

WoW!! I find that to be so true. Well, I don't know about the "our culture" part but I certainly struggle immensely with how to order my day. I don't know why that is.

 

Maybe because my life was artificially planned for me due to school schedule. And when school was not in session (weekends, summer, after school) my mother did not structure my time AT ALL! She's a baby boomer (if that matters) and doesn't really structure her time either and her mother doesn't structure her time either come to think of it.

 

I was in charge of getting my homework and instrument practicing done on my own...which I did. But I did it in an immature, procrastinating, hit or miss kind of kid/teen-age fashion. It was good enough at the time. I excelled at school. But I really, really, really struggle with prioritizing at home, keeping up a schedule. I just worked up a new plan for myself yesterday which was a tweak of an older plan. Hope it works. :D

[Mommyfaithe]

If the "not wanting to spend time with your kids thread," a couple people said something I thought was interesting:

 

That homeschooling (usually) requires some planning and routine, and structure. And that in today's society, we don't usually have that -- and even more interestingly, that today's parents "don't know how to do that" or "haven't been trained to do that."

 

For instance, someone said, "in our culture, we really do not grow up with any sense of how to order our days."

 

I find that very interesting. Anyone care to discuss whether that's true, why it's true, and specifically what that looks like? And should we -- and how can we -- train our children (or ourselves!) to have those kinds of skills?

 

Jenny

 

Jenny, this has frustrated me my entire adult life and frustrates me even more now that I see it happening with my kids. I am not sure why this happened...maybe I had too much freedom as a child with no direction, focus or need to be productive....OR, maybe because we were all public schooled and once the bell was gone, so were our routines.

 

I have really struggled to create life routines and fail miserably all the time. It has impacted every area of our lives...especially because i constantly feel that if I could get a handle on scheduling things and making solid routines, everything would run much smoother and I could be a much more focused and productive person. i am now going to rad your replies and see if any lightbulbs go on for me....

 

Faithe

[Mommyfaithe]

WoW!! I find that to be so true. Well, I don't know about the "our culture" part but I certainly struggle immensely with how to order my day. I don't know why that is.

 

Maybe because my life was artificially planned for me due to school schedule. And when school was not in session (weekends, summer, after school) my mother did not structure my time AT ALL! She's a baby boomer (if that matters) and doesn't really structure her time either and her mother doesn't structure her time either come to think of it.

 

I was in charge of getting my homework and instrument practicing done on my own...which I did. But I did it in an immature, procrastinating, hit or miss kind of kid/teen-age fashion. It was good enough at the time. I excelled at school. But I really, really, really struggle with prioritizing at home, keeping up a schedule. I just worked up a new plan for myself yesterday which was a tweak of an older plan. Hope it works. :D

 

:iagree: yes...this is so true for me too.

[OrganicAnn]

You know all of the previous generations for the most part attended public school, never had this problem. My mother, my grandmother, great grandmother, even great great grandmother all attended public school. Just thinking about this more, I don't think it is public school. I think it is our society has too many choices and too little structure, because we've as a society rebelled against that structure. You didn't need to tell previous generations what to do, because it was drilled into them more than we can imagine.

[Greta Lea]

For me and my boys, too much structure (like a timed daily schedule) makes us kinda rebel and just not do much of anything. Or maybe it's a perfectionist thing and once we are off the strict schedule we just give up. I think *I* am a mix of these two issues.

 

If my boys and I follow a daily *routine*, we have GREAT days.

[Anne]

You know all of the previous generations for the most part attended public school, never had this problem. My mother, my grandmother, great grandmother, even great great grandmother all attended public school. Just thinking about this more, I don't think it is public school. I think it is our society has too many choices and too little structure, because we've as a society rebelled against that structure. You didn't need to tell previous generations what to do, because it was drilled into them more than we can imagine.

 

:iagree:

 

 

Some people are naturally organized - none of this applies to them!

 

Others really have to be taught - this is me! I am over 50 and I'm still hoping to learn to be organized one day!

 

What I did with my daughters: tried to train them (tough to lead in this area when I wasn't very good at it!), then put them in charge of their own schedules. Now that they're both over 21, one is somewhat organized and the other is very organized.

 

I wish I'd started training them earlier to be more organized. Given them tools and structure, put them in charge of small parts of their daily schedules and then larger parts.

 

Anne

[LG Gone Wild]

Funny timing...

 

Our family will shortly be ordering our day around the Liturgy of the Hours. In another hs circle, there is a movement afoot guiding families to very scheduled life though not to be confused with a micromanaged life.

 

When I started with morning prayers or going to mass during the weekday, there was more peace in the home.

[angela in ohio]

Well, one of the first thing Super Nanny does is to establish a routine. that must mean something, right? :D

[Rosie_0801]

I wonder if people don't know a routine when they see one; that if it isn't written on a note on the fridge with specific times for things, then it mustn't be a routine. Specific times make a person want to rebel! "It's 8.30. I'm supposed to be having a shower but it's cold and I don't want to!" If you get up every morning, stick a load of washing in the machine feed everyone, wash the dishes then head to the shower, you have a routine even if it all happens at a different time each day. I'm sure it is better to wash dishes right after dinner, but I can rarely persuade myself. Most of the time I wash them after breakfast then do another load after I've cooked dinner, which I usually do in the early afternoon. Go with what works, huh?

 

Rosie

Edited June 7, 2010 by Rosie_0801

[KathyBC]

I don't know about culture in general, but *I* didn't have any training in that. I'm thinking it has much to do with the compulsory education in the U.S., where children are required to be in school from the time they are 5 or 6 years old, and so their whole "routine" consists of going to and coming home from school. They have little experience in actual real life.

 

Who knew?:lol:

 

I have routine *now,* but I didn't start out that way as a young mother.

 

:iagree: Ditto.

[Joanne]

Well, one of the first thing Super Nanny does is to establish a routine. that must mean something, right? :D

 

After I graduate, I plan on publishing a book on this very topic. Not necessarily to make everyone homeschoolers ;) but to show why structure is needed and how to create it in order to live happily with kids.

[LibraryLover]

LOL Ok. What the heck are you all talking about? What kind of routines are you all talking about? A list of things to do, and an order to do them?

 

I have a natural routine. Get up, go to barn, care for animals, water garden, get coffee, check email, hang with kids/read/tidy kitchen, run errands if needed, lunch, rest or go meet hs friends for fun or whatnot. Late afternoon has it's own rythm...start chopping, take things froim garden to wash...etc etc etc. Everything that needs to get done in a day gets done...and if it doesn/t there is always tomorrow.

 

I don't need school to structure my days (I went to school for 19 years, even) in ways that work for me. Never have, and esp not during the lazy days of summer (which thankfully we get to enjoy).

 

I can't imagine trying to go all structure on my kids' summer. Wah? You ride bikes, hang out, go to activies if you're signed up for them, chill, watch movies if it's thundering, or hot as blazes, meet with friends, have friends over to play in sprinkler, go to beach/pool, go to ice cream place on super-hot nights, play Banangrams on porch, or start a fire in the pit outside if it's not...what need is there to have a major routine?

 

Maybe some of you looking for routines need some pets. :)

Edited June 7, 2010 by LibraryLover

[KathyBC]

Could it be that agrarian societies have seasonal routines; and industrial society had a daily routine? What are we now - a technological society? So we can bank online whenever we want, in the cities the grocery stores are open... well, a lot more than here, anyway. I just had an interesting conversation with my Dad about cities encouraging different shifts as a way to deal with traffic. So when every family has a different routine; and school has yet another... does each family need to set up their own individual routine because they live nothing like their neighbours or like they did growing up?

[Barb_]

They have whatever structure or lack of structure of their parents. They may experience more freedom. Their schooling often crafted around them. Will it really give them more ability to order their days. What is it that helps kids learn to order their day? Is it more structure or less structure? I'm just wondering.

 

I think ideally, planning is a skill that homeschooling children will learn at the knee of a parent, taking part at developmentally appropriate times, and eventually taking over entirely. An 18yo in the typical high school has all of her routine and structure imposed on her from the outside, which is why so many bright kids enter college only to flunk out after a semester or two. No executive function or planning skills of her own to fall back on.

 

Barb

[abreakfromlife]

I don't know what the answer is, but all I know, is I'm glad it's not just me :D

[Barb_]

LOL Ok. What the heck are you all talking about? What kind of routines are you all talking about? A list of things to do, and an order to do them?

 

I have a natural routine. Get up, go to barn, care for animals, water garden, get coffee, check email, hang with kids/read/tidy kitchen, run errands if needed, lunch, rest or go meet hs friends for fun or whatnot. Late afternoon has it's own rythm...start chopping, take things froim garden to wash...etc etc etc. Everything that needs to get done in a day gets done...and if it doesn/t there is always tomorrow.

 

Actually, this is exactly what I had trouble with as a young mom! Don't laugh :D Having a routine and following a to-do list is a huge accomplishment for me. It took until I was well into my 30's and I want to be sure my children don't struggle as I did.

 

Barb

[Caralee]

As a child, I was trained to help clean the house, to pick up my toys, to clean my room etc. I was not taught to cook though. My mother didn't think it necessary. She also did not teach me some other viable skills like preserving food and sewing as she thought I would not need them. She thought I would learn that once I was married as she did.

 

But now as a wife and mother for some time, I have reflected back on my childhood and what I have had to learn on my own. Besides, being trained to clean house, the one thing that really impacted my life was watching my mother work. She was a master at organization and doing 100 things all at once. She was involved in many church activities because she had to (she was a pastor's wife) and we were not rich so she had to make our clothes (first 5 years of my life) and grow our own food and preserve it, keep food ready for drop in guests (on a dily and weekly basis), keep our home and yard clean etc.. Just by her example, I learned how to organize my time and work hard. I would see her make lists and schedules and plan her activities on paper. She would read when she needed to learn something. I would see her plan for all the activities in the church. She still amazes me in all that she can do. So by her example, I learned so much. I am realizing that much is caught over taught when you are child.

 

Now having said that, I do believe it is the responsibility of the parents to show your child how to do something. Just as we show a child how to ride a bike, or how to read, we must make a purpose to show a child how to clean, organize, make schedules, and so on. It takes a whole lot of work and patience on our part as parents as training a child can be a long and frustrating experience before we see actual fruit demonstrated that they have learned the skill we intend for them to learn.

 

Furthermore, if we do not start to teach children from when they are one years old to work, then it is a much more difficult thing to teach a child when they are older, for they have developed bad habits and bad attitudes towards these things.

 

As for our culture, our society has changed quite alot over the last 50 years from a work together attitude to a instant gratification attitude. And we have lost the mentorship roles we as parents use to have. Another thing is our family values and roles and priorities have changed which has caused this shift. I am sure there are more reasons, but you get the idea.

 

Charmayne

[Parrothead]

 

 

Some people are naturally organized - none of this applies to them!

 

That may be it. While reading the posts I kept thinking, "but I've got a schedule. My days are very ordered." I'm one of those sick individuals that has an organizing tendency with a pretty strict schedule.

 

My schedule is almost sacred. I do not like last minute changes to the schedule. In order not to make me too crazy I like to have at least a week's notice to any changes.

[LibraryLover]

But you probably nursed, diapered, nursed, rocked, nursed, diapered, nursed, nursed, got toddler juice, pulled toddler off top of fridge...nursed, diapered. That's a routine. Well, I considered it a routine when I was in the baby/toddler trenches.

 

Now that they are 'older'...or maybe the older kids can pull the baby down off the fridge, you could get some dogs, and some chickens. :lol: I am sure you donm't have enough to do in a day. ;)

 

 

Actually, this is exactly what I had trouble with as a young mom! Don't laugh :D Having a routine and following a to-do list is a huge accomplishment for me. It took until I was well into my 30's and I want to be sure my children don't struggle as I did.

 

Barb

[TrixieB]

I wonder if we tend to rely on outside forces (jobs, schools, etc) to schedule our lives for us. I remember how lost I felt my first year out of college (after 18 straight years in the school system). I didn't know how to just be in a house without staring at a television.

I had exactly this experience after my oldest child was born. For the first time in my life, I was not working or attending school. Dh was at work, my newborn was sleeping... and I had no idea what to do with myself.

[happygrrl]

Funny timing...

 

Our family will shortly be ordering our day around the Liturgy of the Hours. In another hs circle, there is a movement afoot guiding families to very scheduled life though not to be confused with a micromanaged life.

 

When I started with morning prayers or going to mass during the weekday, there was more peace in the home.

 

I have found such joy in the yearly Liturgical Cycle! My days, then weeks, then seasons of fasting and feasting in the year; all are guiding me to a deeper life. I'll be interested to hear how this works for you!

 

Could it be that agrarian societies have seasonal routines; and industrial society had a daily routine? What are we now - a technological society? So we can bank online whenever we want, in the cities the grocery stores are open... well, a lot more than here, anyway. I just had an interesting conversation with my Dad about cities encouraging different shifts as a way to deal with traffic. So when every family has a different routine; and school has yet another... does each family need to set up their own individual routine because they live nothing like their neighbours or like they did growing up?

 

When we moved to our cabin we moved into a more agrarian cycle; planting by the moon, doing certain chores at certain times of the year, and rising by the sun (and since we did not have electricity, going to bed shortly after it went down!). Now that we have electricity and all the labor saving devices we have to work much harder! I miss those days.

 

This summer I have planned an experiment to help me return to some of that simplicity.... I hope to only do banking during banking hours, to buy everything in cash and in person, and to institute "lantern night" a few days a week. Right now (because the lights are on) I am on the computer, dh is reading, the kids are finishing a show and playing. A few years ago the house would be dark and we would have all been out in the yard watching the bats fly, watching the stars, telling stories or singing along to the guitar.

[Peela]

Being institutionalised- which most of us are one way or another from daycare to school to jobs in companies etc- means we are externally structured. Our lives are structured for us. We may have had to discipline ourselves to get up one time to get the bus, but the day, and week is generally divided into chunks.

 

I think many people do have a hard time structuring their own lives if they no longer have external structure. I didn't have a clue how to structure my life in regards to keeping a home in order, or balancing my priorities, or giving my kids sufficient routine. Flylady was my saviour in that regard and I know I say it often here, but finding her really did change my life- and I no longer need that kind of structure, but I sure did for quite a while.

 

Different personalites handle this issue differently. Many people, like me, dont want to be "imprisoned" by a routine, yet thrive on a flexible one. It can take time- years- to find a way of living that works and doesnt become too much "go with the flow" or isnt too structured as to make us want to rebel. When you see the value in healthy structure- a clean house, the homeschooling gets done, letters get written, you get enough sleep, bills get paid on time, savings are made- it becomes obvious that flying by the seat of your pants all the time is actually a more stressful way to live, even if one doesnt want to be anal or a super clean freak like MIL or whoever. But it can take years to understand what the problem actually is, and then implement enough structure to fix the problem. The link has been broken between parent and child, where all this stuff has been passed on down the generations. We have to virtually all work it out from scratch.

[Alenee]

This reminds me of a conversation I was having once years ago with several mothers who were planning to or already homeschooling. For whatever reason there was a lady there who wasn't planning to homeschool. When she heard us all talk about schedules, she scoffed at the idea.

 

Becoming structured was not easy for me and it is still something I have a hard time doing. I have always been someone who pushed the boundaries placed on me by others so even when in public school, I hated the structure. At the same time though, I crave it. I cannot live my days lackadaisically anymore. This is where Peela's statements ring true for me.

 

The hardest time ever was when I graduated high school. I vividly remember sitting with a friend one day and we both looked at eachother saying, "Soooo, what now?":001_huh:

[IsabelC]

What about the people who have always been uber structured and struggle to be spontaneous? I would have thought that what with babies being trained to feed and sleep on schedule, then sent to day care and school with those routines, not to mention all the extracurricular activities that have to be fitted in, that too much structure would be a greater risk than not enough. Although then again, perhaps that is also the problem? Perhaps we have so much imposed structure that we then find it threatening somehow if we have a day or more without that, and lack the skills to exercise self discipline and follow our own structure?

[Rosie_0801]

Maybe the trouble comes from having small children. Anything that happens three days in a row is routine, and as soon as you get comfy with that, the kids do something irritating like change their nap time by three hours! Or, like my first, they don't nap at all so you are in zombie mode the entire day :glare:

 

Rosie

[Laura Corin]

Some tasks we have been freed from by technology. When I read books from the Thirties, washing clothes/linens, for example, took up the whole week. Monday wash, Tuesday dry...... And this all happened without the benefit of a dryer, quick-drying fabrics or (often) much space indoors to dry things, so watching the weather could absorb a lot of time. If you add in keeping a house clean without a vacuum cleaner and shopping/gardening every day, then tasks imposed themselves on you. Even in the late Sixties, I seem to remember going shopping with my mother every morning, and the clothes wash (with a twin tub washing machine and no dryer) was very time consuming.

 

Laura

[jld]

What about the people who have always been uber structured and struggle to be spontaneous?

 

Dh's brother left his wife of 16 years last year for this reason. He says they'll probably get back together, but he's waiting for her to become more spontaneous.

[Strawberry Queen]

I think that teaching children structure is important. One way we do this is through the daily routines of life. For us this boils down to chores, meals, waking, and sleeping. It is so worthwhile to have these things on automatic pilot. The kids do these daily without arguing. Well, they argue between the two of them but not with me.:D It just doesn`t occur to them that they can get out of doing these things, although they try to forget sometimes.

 

Now, if I can get myself to do my chores, it will be a battle won. I struggle with self-discipline in doing daily chores. I do them when I have to but it would be better if I did them regularly. ex. doing the floor before it looks disgusting, maybe washing when it`s somewhat dirty and not completely dirty.:lol:

 

I hope that my girls will learn the aspects of home organizing as well as academic organizing. THis would really help them in the future.

 

Part of the problem when I came home permanently was that I didn`t realize all of the things that should be done. I knew the obvious cleaning chores but it took a while for me to figure out the extras, like cleaning baseboards, turning mattresses etc. Those are the things that flew under the radar when I was growing up. They didn`t have to be done by me and so I didn`t realize that they had to be done. Hopefully I`ll be able to communicate these to my kids. Although, they`ll probably look at me strangely and ask when we did these anyway. :lol:

[Impish]

Organization is a skill I struggle to acquire.

[justamouse]

I so relate. I was horribly unstructured with my first child. Meaning I had none at all. But by the time the 7th came, I had it down pat. Sometime after the third I realized if I didn't I wasn't going to live any sort of life, I would be coping with one disaster after another.

 

Monday we go food shopping after I pick my daughter up. Every Monday. Our summer schedule will be school, then lunch outside by the pool, swimming and reading. I clean as I go, I fold laundry in the evenings after dinner while I watch the news. They know they have clean folded clothes every morning. I vacuum every day when I can (a phone call, a needed break, whathaveyou. yes, I do it every day. I have to.) Around 5 I start making dinner, at 7:30 they're getting in showers and in the evening after showers they can watch TV and read. QUIETly.

 

The wonderful thing is, that when you have a schedule -even something as loose as mine, you have more freedom in breaking it because stuff is done. You have nothing hanging over your head that prevents you from doing _____.

 

I am NOT a clock watcher by the minute person. That grates me something fierce. But just an order to the day is good.

[momee]

hey justamouse -

I love your reply. Structure but not compulsive clock watching.

 

Any advice on food prep for a large crew? Maybe a s/o thread?