Marital "tea" rights?

[Heather in Neverland]

Here is a doozy of a question for you....

 

Do spouses have a "right" to "tea"? Don't get dramatic, please. I am not speaking of force in the situation.

 

Here's my reason in asking: a good friend of mine is in her mid-40's. Her husband is a bit older than her...in his mid-50's. He is not all that interested in tea. She likes tea quite a bit. It is not a physical issue (he is not impotent). He honestly just does not need/want it and has no interest in doing anything about this lack of desire. He is perfectly happy having tea a few times per year (no I am not kidding).

 

She is rather unhappy about this situation and it has been like this for a very long time (like about 10 years). She says she has stayed with him because of their two daughters. But one is now in college and the other is a junior in high school. She says she will divorce him when the youngest goes to college.

 

She feels as a wife she has a right to have tea...not necessarily whenever she wants it but more than 3 times a year. She feels his disinterest in tea and refusal to do anything about it justifies her decision to divorce him.

 

I generally do not believe in divorce except in a certain few circumstances and this is not one of them BUT I admit that I am not in her situation with regards to tea and so I can't TRULY understand it.

 

What says the hive? Is "no tea" a good enough reason to divorce?

[Tangerine]

Here is a doozy of a question for you....

 

Do spouses have a "right" to "tea"? Don't get dramatic, please. I am not speaking of force in the situation.

 

Here's my reason in asking: a good friend of mine is in her mid-40's. Her husband is a bit older than her...in his mid-50's. He is not all that interested in tea. She likes tea quite a bit. It is not a physical issue (he is not impotent). He honestly just does not need/want it and has no interest in doing anything about this lack of desire. He is perfectly happy having tea a few times per year (no I am not kidding).

 

She is rather unhappy about this situation and it has been like this for a very long time (like about 10 years). She says she has stayed with him because of their two daughters. But one is now in college and the other is a junior in high school. She says she will divorce him when the youngest goes to college.

 

She feels as a wife she has a right to have tea...not necessarily whenever she wants it but more than 3 times a year. She feels his disinterest in tea and refusal to do anything about it justifies her decision to divorce him.

 

I generally do not believe in divorce except in a certain few circumstances and this is not one of them BUT I admit that I am not in her situation with regards to tea and so I can't TRULY understand it.

 

What says the hive? Is "no tea" a good enough reason to divorce?

 

 

Well I think, like anything, if there is something you need from your marriage that you're not getting, perhaps a therapist should be consulted if you can't work it out with your spouse. His lack of desire could be due to a number of things that are easily addressed. His refusal might be rooted in embarrassment, but if it comes down to brass tacks and he chooses to lose his marriage rather than do what he can to fix the problem, I wouldn't much blame her for leaving.

[Sputterduck]

As weird at it may sound, this is one of my worst fears if I get married again. The idea of that situation just hurts my heart. I imagine she feels hugely unloved and unwanted. I would want badly to divorce, but I don't know that that is right, especially if it would mean breaking up a child's family of origin. Going off to college is hard enough on a young person... having to deal with your family breaking up on top of it would be awful.

[Mrs Mungo]

What says the hive? Is "no tea" a good enough reason to divorce?

 

It's not about tea v. no tea. It's about whether or not he's willing to fulfill her needs, no matter what they are. He isn't willing to fulfill her emotional and physical needs. I would imagine it goes further and deeper than tea. IMO, that would be reason for a divorce.

[specialmama]

Nope. Not a good enough reason for divorce. Although... spouses are commanded in scripture not to deny the other.... so it is a right. Just not one to divorce over. The saying "the grass is always greener" may turn out to be true of your friend, especially if she follows through with her plan. I think she'd regret it.

[Emmy]

I am not sure I'd say it's a reason to divorce, but I think it's a reason for her to insist on marital counseling which would hopefully lead to improving the situation. Sounds like he needs to see a dr - maybe he has low hormones or something? Anyway, I think she has every right to insist on exploring ways to fix the issue medically and in terms of counseling. If he will not - then I could see it being an issue enough to divorce because at that point it's not just about the physical act, it's about their relationship.

[Joanne]

She feels as a wife she has a right to have tea...not necessarily whenever she wants it but more than 3 times a year. She feels his disinterest in tea and refusal to do anything about it justifies her decision to divorce him.

 

I generally do not believe in divorce except in a certain few circumstances and this is not one of them BUT I admit that I am not in her situation with regards to tea and so I can't TRULY understand it.

 

My body is my husband's. His is mine. I believe that physical affection and intimacy is a right and expectation of a healthy marriage.

 

Under response to a physical issue (low libido is a physical issue) is serious, especially when it effects those we love. This is not only effecting those we love (like a lifestyle that makes diabetes worse), but hurts the healhty functioning of a marriage.

 

Divorce? I don't know but I doubt that limit tea is the extent of the issue.

[angela in ohio]

My body is my husband's. His is mine. I believe that physical affection and intimacy is a right and expectation of a healthy marriage.

 

 

:iagree:

 

I think she has a right to tea. I do not think it warrants a divorce, though.

[babysparkler]

I agree with this:

It's not about tea v. no tea. It's about whether or not he's willing to fulfill her needs, no matter what they are. He isn't willing to fulfill her emotional and physical needs. I would imagine it goes further and deeper than tea.

 

and this:

My body is my husband's. His is mine. I believe that physical affection and intimacy is a right and expectation of a healthy marriage.

 

I don't think it is something to divorce over... but counseling is a definite here.

[Sputterduck]

Ah, well.... um... physically speaking, it isn't as though his body isn't producing "swimmers", so he IS getting a "release" somewhere, somehow. And I'm guessing that he's "releasing" more than a couple of times a year.

 

 

Very true. He's releasing somewhere. The question is, why not with his wife?

[Impish]

As weird at it may sound, this is one of my worst fears if I get married again. The idea of that situation just hurts my heart. I imagine she feels hugely unloved and unwanted. I would want badly to divorce, but I don't know that that is right, especially if it would mean breaking up a child's family of origin. Going off to college is hard enough on a young person... having to deal with your family breaking up on top of it would be awful.

I think the feeling of being unloved, unwanted, and disrespected would be huge, and that would lead to a divorce for any couple, regardless of if the issue was expressed through lack of 'tea' or in another manner.

 

Who would want to stay in a marriage that their desires weren't worthy of consideration? He sounds incredibly selfish, imo, and I wouldn't be surprised in the least if it were expressed in other ways than just in the bedroom.

[katemary63]

His refusal might be rooted in embarrassment, but if it comes down to brass tacks and he chooses to lose his marriage rather than do what he can to fix the problem, I wouldn't much blame her for leaving.

 

This is the key. The point is not that he doesn't care about tea. The point is that he has no committment to her happiness. It is as if he has already left the marriage relationship and she would just be making it legal. Any partner should be willing to work on any problem the other is having in the relationship, even if it's not a problem for them. Seems like a lot more then their love life is dead. Sad.

[Doran]

...Hi. ;)

 

 

Most of the basics have been covered, I suppose. If one believes that marriage should end only with the death of one or the other partner, then lack of sex is not grounds for a marriage to end. But, I think most of us, deep down, believe that there's got to be some wiggle room there, for sanity's sake (ladies, are we all paying attention here?).

 

Does she have a right to expect a physical relationship with her husband? One could assume. Should the couple seek counseling for this issue? Certainly. But, it may or may not solve anything. Is the absence of intimacy a reason for someone to divorce? Well, that depends on whose rules you're following.

 

Given what you've written, I would suggest that she consider, very carefully, two questions which I once asked a very devout Christian friend:

 

Could he have decided upon a different orientation?

Is he having an affair with another woman?

 

 

In her case, it was the latter. She has been divorced for a decade.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I would first think that a doctor's appointment would be in order. Then a counseling appointment.

 

If he is not willing to do those things then it becomes a selfishness issue.

[katemary63]

I would first think that a doctor's appointment would be in order. Then a counseling appointment.

 

If he is not willing to do those things then it becomes a selfishness issue.

 

:iagree:

[Aubrey]

Ah, well.... um... physically speaking, it isn't as though his body isn't producing "swimmers", so he IS getting a "release" somewhere, somehow. And I'm guessing that he's "releasing" more than a couple of times a year.

 

Speaking from experience, this is not necessarily true. Given his age, he should see a dr.

[Aubrey]

Could he have decided upon a different orientation?

Is he having an affair with another woman?

 

While these may be questions one has to ask, I think it's also a good summary of why a man might not want to seek help.

[Doran]

While these may be questions one has to ask, I think it's also a good summary of why a man might not want to seek help.

 

 

Where's the little "Bingo!" smiley?! :hurray:

[Aubrey]

:iagree:

 

I think she has a right to tea. I do not think it warrants a divorce, though.

 

I agree that it's a right, and I agree that it's not a reason to divorce, because there's the issue of laying down one's "rights" for the other.

 

BUT...I'd be *very* careful how I said this to someone. I think it's very legitimate to *feel* like divorce is the only answer, & I know that that feeling contributes to what are already issues of incredibly low self-esteem.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

What if the situation were turned around and it was the man considering leaving the wife for lack of tea? Would that change your sense of the situation?

 

I think that it is very sad that the couple has drifted this far apart emotionally. I think it is grounds for counseling, open discussion and probably lots of tears in trying to work it out. But grounds for divorce? I hope not.

[Mrs Mungo]

What if the situation were turned around and it was the man considering leaving the wife for lack of tea? Would that change your sense of the situation?

 

Speaking for myself? No.

 

I think that it is very sad that the couple has drifted this far apart emotionally. I think it is grounds for counseling, open discussion and probably lots of tears in trying to work it out. But grounds for divorce? I hope not.

 

Again, he's not interested in seeking help. That was made clear in the initial post. The fact that he isn't willing to work on the issue? It's clear that they are already emotionally divorced. I'd *absolutely* assume he's getting it on the side, having an emotional affair with someone or getting satisfaction through a porn addiction, something like that. I would assume the same of a woman.

[Blueridge]

I'm wondering if he already knows about her future plans to leave him when the youngest goes to college. Then he has emotionally divorced her already to avoid some of his pain. Perhaps either he is on medication that is numbing or blocking the normal desire, or he's having an affair. I do feel very badly for them both. The grass is rarely greener on the other side. That reminds me of a book they both should read...The Myth of the Greener Grass. If he's just being a selfish pig, getting some counseling could help him. He needs a physical to rule out anything. I think he is hiding some very deep insecurities.

[stripe]

If it's important to her (and it would be entirely normal for it to be!), and he REFUSES to do anything about it, I wouldn't be surprised that she found it troubling and sad.

Edited November 14, 2009 by stripe

[LibraryLover]

There are no rights which supersede one's feelings/needs.

 

I do, however, think that sometimes people don't try hard enough to connect with those who love them. Sometimes people are lazy.

 

Or gay.

Edited November 13, 2009 by LibraryLover

[Joanne]

...Hi. ;)

 

 

Given what you've written, I would suggest that she consider, very carefully, two questions which I once asked a very devout Christian friend:

 

Could he have decided upon a different orientation?

Is he having an affair with another woman?

 

 

In her case, it was the latter. She has been divorced for a decade.

 

I'd add one more. Porn addiction. Porn addiction often leads to little or no marital sex.

[emeraldjoy]

In my opinion.....

I would not be at all surprised to find *other* things going on within (or without I suppose) this marriage. A heteresexual man of his age should "need" more sex than three times a year with his wife. As always there are certainly exceptions but most of the time other stuff is going on...even with the guy whom nobody ever would suspect.

If it simply were a s*x thing then, of course, divorce isn't the answer. More than likely though, it is oh so much more than that.

I probably just repeated what has already been said though.

This is sort of close to home though. I am very, very close to a family whose wife is completely clueless (in denial???) about the issue. I am certain there is a pornography issue at the very least.

so sad.

darn internet......

e

[kalanamak]

Ah, well.... um... physically speaking, it isn't as though his body isn't producing "swimmers", so he IS getting a "release" somewhere, somehow. And I'm guessing that he's "releasing" more than a couple of times a year.

 

 

The human libido varies wildly, and it can decline with age. Three times a year is not an indication he is up to anything else. He could be, but not necessarily. I'd hate to fuel suspicion in a friend.

[justamouse]

Yes. Tea is glue. It's important. Especially since most men stay emotionally connected through tea. If she has done everything she can and is willing to do and he is unwilling to meet her halfway, then yep, divorce him. BUT I would also ask, is there something 10 years back that she might have done to start a fissure?

[6packofun]

Sorry, but that's a bunch of crap. My dh has a "few times a year" libido and we've talked about it extensively. He's not doing anything alone, with someone else, having regular, uh, emissions just because he's a man and "needs" to. He doesn't have low testosterone or any physical issues except being overweight. Yes, he's spoken to a dr. (I've even lost a bunch of weight and look much better than I have in years and he says my appearance doesn't matter at all because he loves me no matter what. He's just not into it.)

 

So, I hate to say it but there is little recourse for a spouse like me.

[Joanne]

Sorry, but that's a bunch of crap. My dh has a "few times a year" libido and we've talked about it extensively. He's not doing anything alone, with someone else, having regular, uh, emissions just because he's a man and "needs" to. He doesn't have low testosterone or any physical issues except being overweight. Yes, he's spoken to a dr. (I've even lost a bunch of weight and look much better than I have in years and he says my appearance doesn't matter at all because he loves me no matter what. He's just not into it.)

 

So, I hate to say it but there is little recourse for a spouse like me.

 

Your DH cares enough about you to follow up medically. That's respect. The question I'd ask in cases like this is if playfulness, affection, hugging, kisssing, etc were still present and enjoyed. That's why I worded my first post the way I did.

[Catwoman]

Personally, I don't think it's something to get divorced over, if the rest of the marriage is solid. Before any of us jump to conclusions, we should know whether or not this guy is a wonderful husband in all of the other aspects of their marriage. If he is, and the wife still loves him and enjoys his company, she should weigh her situation very carefully before leaving him, as she may have a "grass is greener" mentality that may not come true in reality if she gets divorced. Sure, she could probably find a could find a guy who is an excellent "performer," but there's a lot more to a successful long-term relationship than that.

 

Realistically, she needs to know whether or not there's another woman (or man) involved, as that would certainly change everything, and the divorce would make a lot of sense at that point. She also needs to assess the entire relationship, not just the "tea" portion. If her husband is distant and emotionally unavailable, or if he's not a nice man to be around, that certainly adds to her reasoning that a divorce is a good idea.

 

I honestly don't know what to suggest that she do, as I don't know enough about her or her husband, but if it's an otherwise-great relationship, I would advise her to stick with it, and if she's miserable on many levels, it could be time for her to leave.

 

Cat

[elizabeth]

It's not about tea v. no tea. It's about whether or not he's willing to fulfill her needs, no matter what they are. He isn't willing to fulfill her emotional and physical needs. I would imagine it goes further and deeper than tea. IMO, that would be reason for a divorce.

As always your response is perceptive and wise.

[Heather in Neverland]

Personally, I don't think it's something to get divorced over, if the rest of the marriage is solid. Before any of us jump to conclusions, we should know whether or not this guy is a wonderful husband in all of the other aspects of their marriage. If he is, and the wife still loves him and enjoys his company, she should weigh her situation very carefully before leaving him, as she may have a "grass is greener" mentality that may not come true in reality if she gets divorced. Sure, she could probably find a could find a guy who is an excellent "performer," but there's a lot more to a successful long-term relationship than that.

 

Realistically, she needs to know whether or not there's another woman (or man) involved, as that would certainly change everything, and the divorce would make a lot of sense at that point. She also needs to assess the entire relationship, not just the "tea" portion. If her husband is distant and emotionally unavailable, or if he's not a nice man to be around, that certainly adds to her reasoning that a divorce is a good idea.

 

I honestly don't know what to suggest that she do, as I don't know enough about her or her husband, but if it's an otherwise-great relationship, I would advise her to stick with it, and if she's miserable on many levels, it could be time for her to leave.

 

Cat

 

It's not a solid marriage. There is no infidelity on either side (that I know of) but there is not much of a relationship either. It has been bad for a decade. They've stayed together for the kids. I think the "tea" issue maybe either the final straw or just a way of making herself feel better for breaking her vows and divorcing him.

 

This is so hard as I am a strong believer in marriage and not divorcing if at all possible but I hate to see my friend miserable too. I don't want to advise her to do something that isn't biblical though. sigh....

 

I guess that's part of why I asked...is "tea" a marital expectation/right as far as the bible is concerned and if so does the absence of it allow for divorce?

 

I hate stuff like this. It is so depressing.

[Jean in Newcastle]

As far as the Bible goes, "tea" is an appropriate marital expectation. A pp gave the verse regarding this. I don't think it is a Biblical reason for divorce esp. if he has not committed adultery. Does she have a pastor that she could go to and who might talk to her dh? (I have mixed feelings about pastors getting involved in a person's marriage but I thought I'd throw it out there anyway).

[tdeveson]

He is so getting it on the side. Dump him -- he's useless. Not because of the lack of tea, but because of the lack of effort.

[tdeveson]

Realistically, she needs to know whether or not there's another woman (or man) involved...

Cat

 

 

:w00t:

 

 

[Catwoman]

It's not a solid marriage. There is no infidelity on either side (that I know of) but there is not much of a relationship either. It has been bad for a decade. They've stayed together for the kids. I think the "tea" issue maybe either the final straw or just a way of making herself feel better for breaking her vows and divorcing him.

 

 

Personally, after reading your description of their marriage, the "tea" issue is the least of your friend's problems with her husband. It sounds to me like she's looking for a way out of the marriage, and needs an excuse that will make her feel better about it.

 

If the marriage has been bad for a decade, and your friend has done everything she could to hold the relationship together and make it work, I think she's gone above and beyond what most people would have done, and if I were her friend, I'd tell her that I'd support her, no matter what she decided to do, and leave it at that -- even though I'd privately be thinking that she should have left the guy years ago... ;)

 

I would do a lot of listening, but I wouldn't offer too much advice, as it can be dangerous to take sides. Let's face it, if you encourage the divorce (thinking that's what she wants you to do,) and she ends up staying with the guy, it could cause a rift in your friendship because you were the one who told her to break up her family. Likewise, if you advise her not to get divorced, and she does it anyway, you could lose her as a friend because she would feel that you hadn't supported her when she needed you.

 

I think she is very lucky to have a friend like you, Heather, because it's very obvious that you care a lot about her happiness.

 

Cat

[ThatCyndiGirl]

spouses are commanded in scripture not to deny the other.... so it is a right.

 

 

Nope. No one has a RIGHT to my body.

 

I agree with other pp's who have stated that he has other issues. OP said that the marraige is bad in many other ways. The sex issue is the tip of the much larger iceburg. This isn't about sex, imho, but about a marraige gone bad.

[kalanamak]

He is so getting it on the side. Dump him -- he's useless. Not because of the lack of tea, but because of the lack of effort.

 

Maybe I'm too middle-aged, but I'd rather do without than think my partner is putting in "an effort". What a passion-killer.

[Melinda in VT]

Maybe I'm too middle-aged, but I'd rather do without than think my partner is putting in "an effort". What a passion-killer.

 

You know, I understand that way of thinking, I really do.

 

But it puts spouses with lower libidos in a rough spot. They have to change themselves effortlessly. It's very easy then to just give up and not try to change the situation. It's a ****ed if they do, ****ed if they don't scenario.

[stripe]

Maybe I'm too middle-aged, but I'd rather do without than think my partner is putting in "an effort". What a passion-killer.

I see your point. ;) Maybe replace the word "effort" with "enthusiasm" or "interest" or "attention." ?? But if someone refuses to be intimate, the passion has already been killed.

[Sasha]

My body is my own and nobody has a "right" to do anything with it without my full consent.

 

Nobody.

 

With that said, it's not my place to decide what is a "good enough" reason for another couple to divorce.

[SquirrellyMama]

Maybe I'm too middle-aged, but I'd rather do without than think my partner is putting in "an effort". What a passion-killer.

 

I'm the person in our marriage who has to put forth "an effort". I really hope my dh sees it as I love him and I want him to be happy and not as a passion killer. It is really hard when you have no desire and the doctors can't tell you why.

[katemary63]

I'm the person in our marriage who has to put forth "an effort". I really hope my dh sees it as I love him and I want him to be happy and not as a passion killer. It is really hard when you have no desire and the doctors can't tell you why.

 

 

:iagree:Yeah, there are lots of times I am not "in the mood" but we go ahead with "tea" anyway. I'd say I was putting in an "effort", "faking it", what ever. But heck, what's wrong with that? I'm trying to make him happy by meeting his needs and disregarding my own lack there of. That's an act of love ( not lust). It's actually not a passion killer, it's the opposite, because during the "effort", we realize how much we truly love each other and things start to heat up on both sides IYKWIM.

[kalanamak]

You know, I understand that way of thinking, I really do.

 

But it puts spouses with lower libidos in a rough spot.

 

Yes, it does, but it has happened to millions, I'm sure.

 

And there is also the "effort" of making the time to cuddle up and relax and let nature take its course. That is a good effort.

 

I recall one patient telling me it was like doing pushups, just work, and not fun work. I wondered how his wife felt about it, but she wasn't my patient. Another, female, patient told me she always thought of a last minute thing she had to do at bedtime (laundry was a favorite), and by the time she got to bed, he was sound asleep. Mismatches are not uncommon.

[Joanne]

I think the "tea" issue maybe either the final straw or just a way of making herself feel better for breaking her vows and divorcing him.

 

This is so hard as I am a strong believer in marriage and not divorcing if at all possible but I hate to see my friend miserable too. I don't want to advise her to do something that isn't biblical though. sigh....

 

Please take a moment and listen to someone who has been through a divorce from a medium length marriage. Know that I found your posts informative, supportive, insightful and enjoy them.

 

But I'd like to encourage you to consider thinking differently about this. It's very, um, not generous (and probably not accurate) to frame her talking about tea as a "reason to feel better about breaking her vows and divorcing him".

 

The truth is that this seems like a paper marriage only. The actual living, breathing, functioning marriage is over. The marriage certificate or divorce decree are just PAPER.

 

Vows aren't paper. They are commitment to action. Certainly your friend is not perfect, but he break vows, too.

 

She's not divorcing over "no tea". She's considering divorce over no *intimacy* (at minimum, but I suspect more issues are involved). She shares the "tea" part with you because it's simple, safe and people divorcing often don't share the depth and breadth of their marriage pain and specifics.

 

Please. Being a supporter of marriage should not be reduced to "not getting divorced". It sounds like your friend is ALREADY divorced and is considering getting the papers to match. Her pain is real, ongoing and a soul killer.

[Heather in Neverland]

Please. Being a supporter of marriage should not be reduced to "not getting divorced". It sounds like your friend is ALREADY divorced and is considering getting the papers to match. Her pain is real, ongoing and a soul killer.

 

I am definitely taking your words to heart. When speaking with her I am supportive and give her a shoulder to cry on. But when she asks me if I think it is OK to divorce her husband I just don't know what to say. Believe me, I am no saint. My first inclination as her friend is to tell her to dump him. But is this biblical advice? Because ultimately, I will be held accountable for advice I give her AND I don't want to lead her in the wrong direction either.

 

So then we are back to the age-old question of what are the biblical reasons for divorce? I was raised to believe and reading the Bible has lead me to believe that adultery was the only allowable reason but things like this make me wonder..... :(

[Snickerdoodle]

When speaking with her I am supportive and give her a shoulder to cry on. But when she asks me if I think it is OK to divorce her husband I just don't know what to say.

 

I don't think you should give her advice about what she should do with her marriage. I think being supportive and empathetic is the best course.

 

In the end this is a decision that she has to make. If she asks you if you think it's OK to divorce then you should put the question back to her. She's the one that needs to make the evaluation of her marriage.

[Impish]

When she asks you, tell her to pray. That's about the only advice I think you can give in this situation. You cannot give her the absolution she's looking for, only God can.

[LibraryLover]

Putting in a effort is an interesting way of thinking about it. lol Hasn't anyone ever not felt like it, but began and ended up enjoying themselves and being glad they 'made an effort'.