Should we talk about Parkland with young kids?

[Kanin]

My school may be having a 17-minute period of silence, outside, for the victims of Parkland in the coming week. The admins here are saying things about the young elementary kids participating if they want to. I'm not sure if my students, grades 3-5, with learning disabilities, even know about it. Certainly they haven't brought it up with me.

Some coworkers say we should tell them about Parkland (after notifying parents), and talk about it. My opinion is that if they don't already know, why tell them? Is there a reason a 9 year old needs to know that kids can get killed in school? Can't we preserve the innocence of childhood just a little bit longer?

 

I'm not a parent, so I don't have parenting experience guiding me here. Thoughts?

[SKL]

I think that in your shoes, I would not have my students participate.

 

I don't think that sort of thing helps kids do anything but fear things that (a) probably won't happen to them and (b) they can do nothing about.

 

They told my kids about Sandy Hook when they were in 1st grade.  That made me mad.  I don't see the point at all.  There is plenty of time for them to learn whatever they need to know about school shootings.

[SKL]

Also - meant to say, first and foremost - I think it should be left to the parents to decide whether or not their young kids should know and how they should be told.

[Kanin]

That's exactly what I said - I don't want my kids participating. I may get overruled :(

[hornblower]

does the school have active shooter drills?  If so, this boat has sailed.   This is the reality of your culture. 


fwiw, I think kids will find out anyway from peers and the stories might be distorted and more scary. A kind caring teaching staff that says "a bad thing happened but we're doing everything to keep you safe. You're safe." would be a good thing. 

[vonfirmath]

My school may be having a 17-minute period of silence, outside, for the victims of Parkland in the coming week. The admins here are saying things about the young elementary kids participating if they want to. I'm not sure if my students, grades 3-5, with learning disabilities, even know about it. Certainly they haven't brought it up with me.

Some coworkers say we should tell them about Parkland (after notifying parents), and talk about it. My opinion is that if they don't already know, why tell them? Is there a reason a 9 year old needs to know that kids can get killed in school? Can't we preserve the innocence of childhood just a little bit longer?

 

I'm not a parent, so I don't have parenting experience guiding me here. Thoughts?

 

Our elementary schools have chosen not to discuss it with the kids but allow parents to choose whether to have that discussion with their own particular kids.

I am not sure what I would think if my 5th grader's teachers discussed it in class. I am glad they haven chosen not to do that. Even though they are having a lockdown drill today where they are pulling the fire alarm to practice STAYING in the room if a fire alarm goes off during a lockdown.  (And yes they have a plan for if there is a real fire during a lockdown.)

 

Edited February 23, 2018 by vonfirmath

[vonfirmath]

does the school have active shooter drills?  If so, this boat has sailed.   This is the reality of your culture. 

 

 

fwiw, I think kids will find out anyway from peers and the stories might be distorted and more scary. A kind caring teaching staff that says "a bad thing happened but we're doing everything to keep you safe. You're safe." would be a good thing. 

 

They call them lockdowns at my kids' school and they don't mention active shooters at all. 

 

When my daughter was in Pre-K they had tornado drills and called it playing hide and seek with the principal and made it a game.  (my daughter would have freaked if the word tornado was mentioned, but she -loved- playing hide and go seek with the principal. She would proudly tell me how they were SO good at hiding the principal didn't find them for "ages and ages")

 

Edited February 23, 2018 by vonfirmath

[freesia]

I was teaching first grade when Columbine happened. The problem I had was that some kids knew a lot about what happened and were sharing it with others, so I had to address it. I don't remember exactly what I said, but I kept it short and remained calm.

 

In general, though, I don't believe we need to tell these types of events to kids under 9 or 10.  I think it is too hard for most of them to have any perspective and they certainly have even less control.  They need to believe the adults will protect them bc they certainly cannot take care of themselves.  I also don't think children that young need to see any visual images.

 

In practice, in my house, with teens, my youngest (8) does know.  However,  my older ones understand that we don't watch even CNN Student news right after this type of event happens. They can, if they want.  But my elementary student does not need to see it.

 

 

[Guinevere]

They call them lockdowns at my kids' school and they don't mention active shooters at all.

 

When my daughter was in Pre-K they had tornado drills and called it playing hide and seek with the principal and made it a game. (my daughter would have freaked if the word tornado was mentioned, but she -loved- playing hide and go seek with the principal. She would proudly tell me how they were SO good at hiding the principal didn't find them for "ages and ages")

I love this!

[Guinevere]

I think it is a good idea for younger kids to be told something, just to protect them from what other kids who do know might say. All of my own kids are homeschooled, and I almost always tell my oldest (she's 13) because she will hear things when she is out and about. The younger ones have had to be told the last couple of times because the flag is put to half mast, and my kids always notice. It's really hard to tell a 7yo, but she asked.

[8circles]

You know, I have *heard* of active shooter drills, but never actually known a school to hold them.

 

I HAVE known schools to hold "lock down" drills, but I also know that a lock down could happen for a lot of reasons.

 

For clarification, are you doubting that schools do active shooter drills?

 

I can tell you that they most certainly do. Elementary, Middle, and High Schools. Of course, you're still only hearing about it so you still don't actually *know*.

 

But *I* KNOW. Schools do, in fact, hold active shooter drills. 

[hornblower]

On the Florida thread some people proposed mandatory gun safety classes for all school children. 

And here there are people wanting to opt out of a memorial or discussion of an incident. 

That seems a sign of an incredibly wide chasm in opinion.  It strikes me as an interesting sign of how difficult a consensus might be.  

[maize]

I don't tell my young kids news like this.

 

Worrying about stuff you can't do anything about raises stress hormones in the body, which can have long term negative consequences.

 

I've discussed it briefly with my teen but not with any of the younger kids.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Our local schools have active shooter drills, on a very regular basis. The school resource officer explained the process, on the township Facebook group. Even the smallest children are told that this is how we stay safe from a bad guy with a gun.

 

Officer L explained that they do not practice the skills as a game, because games include laughing and running and getting lost in the enjoyment of the moment. But these children must practice moving swiftly and silently, making no noise, and never taking their eyes off their teacher, because of "bad guys with guns."

 

This township, which is a 50/50 blend of urban factory workers and construction worker rednecks (where almost everybody has guns), was pretty horrified. The reaction was total support for the school, and gratitude that preparation is taken seriously, but a lot of sadness at the thought of how these drills must be disturbing and permanently affecting our children.

 

We've had school shootings in neighboring districts and are at great risk of it happening here; everyone seems to know that.

[8circles]

Oh no, I am not saying that I doubt they hold them at all.  I am only saying exactly what I said.....I have *heard* of them, but I have never known a school to do it.  Of course I know schools hold them.

 

The schools I have experience with hold "lock down" drills.  I assume the procedure is the same, it's only the name that's different.  Is that correct?

 

No. A lock down drill is simply a lock down. Classrooms locked. Hallways cleared (get in the nearest classroom). 

 

Active shooter drills involve lock down and hiding within the classroom (or closet w/in classroom) or going out the window (this is only discussed and not practiced yet). Barricading the door with furniture. etc.

[Kanin]

We have lockdown drills for "intruders." I never thought about an intruder PLUS the fire alarm going off - ugh. Two conflicting messages. Adding to the trouble is sometimes you're supposed to hide in your room, and other times you're supposed to run, if you think you can get out safely. I don't even want to think about having to make that decision.

 

My opinion is that unless there is something constructive kids can do with the information, or if knowing about Parkland will somehow help them, they don't need to know. I doubt my kids would really process it anyway. They would "know" about it, but I don't think they could process beyond just having a vague feeling of discomfort. 

 

A coworker told me that she heard of some schools where the kids are taught to huddle in a corner AND put books in front of their faces. Others are being given "jobs" to do if an intruder comes - some throw books, some shut the door, etc. That is too much for me to picture.

[8circles]

Wow really?  They actually have kids practice barricading the door with furniture?  Interesting!  Yeah, I don't recall ever having seen that. And again, there's absolutely nothing more to that statement than what I typed.  No doubt that it happens, no implication that someone is making anything up, nothing like that.  It's not something I have seen.  That's all.

 

I am curious how many schools do that sort of drill in place of, or in addition to a lock down drill.  (again, nothing behind that statement, it means what it says.)

 

Yes, really.

 

These are my own children & their schools. It varies by school district so I don't know how common it is.

 

My 14 year-old's job is to barricade the door with a bookshelf. 

My 7 year-old worries that there aren't enough hiding places in the classroom. He's right, there aren't.

[hornblower]

few years ago I discovered by accident that if you're on the college campus in the all glassed swanky bookstore when the armed intruder lockdown drill goes off, they herd everyone into their steel door backrooom which is almost like a safe & where there are stacks and stacks of heavy thick books. I thought wow, this is a good place to hide. The books themselves might stop bullets. Head for the biology and health/medicine sections; their books are super fat. 

University peeps my age - esp women I think - all remember Ecole Polytechnique.... During this year's drill I saw a bio lab tech tear a strip a mile long off students who were gossiping and giggling instead of being silent under a desk. She looked seriously traumatized by the whole thing. Our campus drills are long and stressful and there's an ongoing scary PA announcement saying 'this is not a drill' .. even though it is.... 

[Rachel]

I have talked to my kids about it (ages 5-10). My kids are very perceptive and hear little snitches of news on the radio that I don’t even notice. I like to explain to them what happened in a way that won’t scare them but does let them know what is going on. I think that it is usually a parent’s responsibility to address these types of things, at least at the elementary age.

 

If you are going to be required to participate in the moment of remembrance, I do think you need to say something. Will you get “in trouble†if you skip or have an alternate activity in this time? It doesn’t sound like your particular class would benefit from participating.

[8circles]

 

ETA:  Google brought this to me.........still in the process of reading it

 

https://lawecommons.luc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1106&context=clrj

 

Right.

 

We're damned if we do & damned if we don't.

 

Either way, we're forced to live with massive amounts of guns in a country with massive amounts of gun violence and TPTB are doing everything they can to keep it that way.

 

Because *that*'s helpful & REALLY damn healthy.

[vonfirmath]

On the Florida thread some people proposed mandatory gun safety classes for all school children. 

 

And here there are people wanting to opt out of a memorial or discussion of an incident. 

 

That seems a sign of an incredibly wide chasm in opinion.  It strikes me as an interesting sign of how difficult a consensus might be.  

 

I'm not sure about discussing this incident with my kids but I have already begun teaching them gun safety. It is compatible to believe both.

[Lecka]

I think active shooter drills and lockdown drills are different.

 

I had a job where we had an active shooter plan and it was to leave the building.

 

I’m not sure though?

[Tsuga]

My kids are in public school in a rapidly growing peri-urban area.

 

Their dad is a soldier.

 

Their uncle works for the sheriff.

 

Their grandfathers and aunts and uncles are military and national guard.

 

Other family members work in hospitals.

 

Their step-nana is a teacher.

 

This is us, our lives, our country, our responsibility and our fears. We absolutely talk about it.

 

My kids will have gun safety training because their uncle has guns at home. However, my preference would be, the police have the guns and training so we don't have to.

 

I'm feeling a bit cheated by the idea that I'm paying police officers and we're paying for the largest law-enforcement and prison system and army in the entire world, but I still need to get a gun? Are you kidding me? What the ever loving heck are we paying for in this country?!?!?

 

Meanwhile I can go to a diverse urban country like Germany and I don't need a gun. I can go to Japan, to China, no gun needed. But I have to arm my own kids for school?

 

On a purely financial level with public policy, if we're all going to get guns and prepare to meet active shooters can we cut the military and police budgets and prison budgets? After all we have to have guns anyway.

 

(I don't mind people wanting guns but I'm deeply resentful that it has been suggested that gun ownership should be mandatory or even recommended for any class of people particularly children!!!)

Edited February 23, 2018 by Tsuga

[hshibley]

Yes, really.

 

These are my own children & their schools. It varies by school district so I don't know how common it is.

 

My 14 year-old's job is to barricade the door with a bookshelf. 

My 7 year-old worries that there aren't enough hiding places in the classroom. He's right, there aren't.

 

My kids' high schools do as well. The practice getting in to hiding places as quickly as possible. If it's during my daughters band class they cram in the music closet as quickly and quietly as possible with the band director inside the closed closet blocking the door. He's a large guy either he'll be able to keep the door shut or he'll be shot first. This is what we ask teachers in our country to do because we can't have reasonable gun control. 

[AmandaVT]

Oh no, I am not saying that I doubt they hold them at all.  I am only saying exactly what I said.....I have *heard* of them, but I have never known a school to do it.  Of course I know schools hold them.

 

The schools I have experience with hold "lock down" drills.  I assume the procedure is the same, it's only the name that's different.  Is that correct?

 

They did them in schools in VT this week. My friend's 11 year old goes to a public school and told her all about it when he got home. The parents also received an e-mail about it explaining it.

[Joyofsixreboot]

I would rather they heard it from mine than a garbled version from another kid. The 1st and 2nd graders in my Sunday school class all knew about it.

 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

Even young kids talk. I would discuss it with young children because they will hear about it whether we want them to or not. 

[vonfirmath]

 

My kids will have gun safety training because their uncle has guns at home. However, my preference would be, the police have the guns and training so we don't have to.

 

I'm feeling a bit cheated by the idea that I'm paying police officers and we're paying for the largest law-enforcement and prison system and army in the entire world, but I still need to get a gun? Are you kidding me? What the ever loving heck are we paying for in this country?!?!?

 

 

1. When the robbers at your house trying to steal your stuff, the police are how many minutes away?

 

2. Has it ever been overturned what the Supreme Court said about the police having no duty to protect you?

http://tribunist.com/news/supreme-court-ruling-police-have-no-duty-to-protect-the-general-public/

[SKL]

I think it stinks that we need (or feel a need) to have these drills, but I feel there's a difference between "this could happen so here's what we would hypothetically do" and "this just happened."

 

Like fire drills - I don't think they make kids afraid.  But hearing that a lot of children recently burned up in a school would feel a lot different.

 

When Sandy Hook happened, as I mentioned, they told my kids at school.  But my kids were initially under the impression that this was long ago, like a cautionary fairy tale or something.  When they realized it had "just happened for real," that felt different.  That was scary.

[Pam in CT]

Our local schools have active shooter drills, on a very regular basis. The school resource officer explained the process, on the township Facebook group. Even the smallest children are told that this is how we stay safe from a bad guy with a gun.

 

Officer L explained that they do not practice the skills as a game, because games include laughing and running and getting lost in the enjoyment of the moment. But these children must practice moving swiftly and silently, making no noise, and never taking their eyes off their teacher, because of "bad guys with guns."

 

This township, which is a 50/50 blend of urban factory workers and construction worker rednecks (where almost everybody has guns), was pretty horrified. The reaction was total support for the school, and gratitude that preparation is taken seriously, but a lot of sadness at the thought of how these drills must be disturbing and permanently affecting our children.

 

We've had school shootings in neighboring districts and are at great risk of it happening here; everyone seems to know that.

 

 

These drills take place in all schools that I know of in our area, private as well as public, elementary through high school.

 

Our kids already *are* getting gun education in schools, whether we'd choose it or not: this is it.  

 

On another thread, a poster raised the point that the currently organizing and protesting kids have been doing such drills their whole school lives; that has informed them and forged a common experience between them that is not really accessible to those of us who didn't conduct such drills back in the day.

[EMS83]

Mine have actually asked me not to share news like this with them, so I respect that.  When relatives allude to something, I just tell the kids, "You asked me not to tell you."  So they get the idea.  It's not like they don't know these things happen, or that history is violent.  They also ask about half staff flags.  But news like this just makes them feel unsafe.  Like, "This happened in another state, therefore someone might come in my house any minute."  They don't panic, but it's pretty evident that's the leap they're making.  Especially the younger two.

[EMS83]

According to that one paper I linked, it seems like some of these schools aren't doing this drills like a fire drill.  We all remember fire drills, the teacher would tell us a drill was coming we would all line up, walk out, then march back in.

 

But it seems that some of these schools are bringing in law enforcement, fully acting out scenes with the sounds of shooting, full on make up for wounds etc.  And on top of that, if I read it correctly, some of the schools are doing all that without telling anyone it's coming.  I am a 40yr old woman and that would freak the crap outta me!

 

 

Yes that'd scare me.  And it seems like it'd desensitize them, and maybe not in a good way?

[ChocolateReignRemix]

These drills take place in all schools that I know of in our area, private as well as public, elementary through high school.

 

Our kids already *are* getting gun education in schools, whether we'd choose it or not: this is it.  

 

On another thread, a poster raised the point that the currently organizing and protesting kids have been doing such drills their whole school lives; that has informed them and forged a common experience between them that is not really accessible to those of us who didn't conduct such drills back in the day.

 

I have been thinking about this after someone mentioned it and I think it is spot on.  From personal experience I was caught up in a school lock down (robbery at a store across the street on a weekend just as a basketball camp was starting).  Seeing a SWAT team come through the gym to clear it was...unnerving.  I can't imagine going through this for years and years starting at the age of 6 or 7, and it doesn't surprise some kids are finally fed up.

[SKL]

I thought the drills with bullet sounds, etc. were done when the kids were not at school.  To train the teachers it makes sense to go beyond just herding the kids around.

 

When I was a kid, drills were not announced as drills until after they were over.  Thankfully they always were drills, but we were taught to assume they were real.  (We did fire and tornado drills.)

[nixpix5]

I had two kids in 2nd grade during 9/11 and that we talked about. Other than that, I don't share these things with my children. Kids feel out of control and look to adults for answers and support. All these things do for young kids is create fear and anxiety. I just wouldn't let my kids be part of that.

[AppleGreen]

Yes, really.

 

These are my own children & their schools. It varies by school district so I don't know how common it is.

 

My 14 year-old's job is to barricade the door with a bookshelf. 

My 7 year-old worries that there aren't enough hiding places in the classroom. He's right, there aren't.

That is heartbreaking. I am so frustrated and saddened that this is a 7 year old's reality in school. 

[OneStepAtATime]

On the Florida thread some people proposed mandatory gun safety classes for all school children. 

 

And here there are people wanting to opt out of a memorial or discussion of an incident. 

 

That seems a sign of an incredibly wide chasm in opinion.  It strikes me as an interesting sign of how difficult a consensus might be.  

Yes, it absolutely would be difficult.  There is absolutely a wide chasm of opinion.  There are millions upon millions of people living in the U.S., raised in many different subcultures and backgrounds, scattered across a vast land mass.  Unless we become a hive mind I don't see an easy large majority consensus on anything.  We can get slim majorities but rarely is there true consensus for a huge majority of the population.  I have no idea how that could be changed, either, but I'm sure we will keep trying.

Edited February 23, 2018 by OneStepAtATime

[Tsuga]

 

My kids will have gun safety training because their uncle has guns at home. However, my preference would be, the police have the guns and training so we don't have to.

 

I'm feeling a bit cheated by the idea that I'm paying police officers and we're paying for the largest law-enforcement and prison system and army in the entire world, but I still need to get a gun? Are you kidding me? What the ever loving heck are we paying for in this country?!?!?

 

 

1. When the robbers at your house trying to steal your stuff, the police are how many minutes away?

 

2. Has it ever been overturned what the Supreme Court said about the police having no duty to protect you?

http://tribunist.com/news/supreme-court-ruling-police-have-no-duty-to-protect-the-general-public/

Why do I need a gun?

 

I'm not a gangbanger. I don't shoot people over a freaking television.

 

Take the TV. My insurance will replace it.

 

Imagine being willing to murder over things! This country has been overcome by a bunch of monkeys.

 

And no, murderers aren't going door to door in Seattle. But when they do, the police will come. They won't come to defend someone's bike though.

 

Life > things.

 

Shootouts aren't worth it.

 

And when my life is at stake, again, the police should come. But the chances of me winning a gunfight are low. Even if I could win, I would much rather depend on, you know...

 

A functioning law enforcement and justice system like every other normal country.

[Tanaqui]

1. When the robbers at your house trying to steal your stuff, the police are how many minutes away?

 

So what? It's just stuff. I'm not going to murder somebody over my things. If somebody wants my purse, or my TV, or my computer - well, they can freaking have it! I am better than that.

[vonfirmath]

So what? It's just stuff. I'm not going to murder somebody over my things. If somebody wants my purse, or my TV, or my computer - well, they can freaking have it! I am better than that.

 

And you are so sure that robber will stop at the stuff and won't try to harm you or your family so you can't identify them? When someone is willing to bust into my door and I am present, I've got every right to assume they are willing to harm me and my kids. I'm not defending my stuff. I'm defending my life and that of my kids.

 

Note in that court case the daughters ended up dead when the police would not come to get the kids back that were stolen from their front yard from someone who was not even supposed to be there.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-police-do-not-have-a-constitutional-duty-to-protect.html

 

Edited February 24, 2018 by vonfirmath

[Tanaqui]

And you are so sure that robber will stop at the stuff and won't try to harm you or your family so you can't identify them?

 

I'm certain they will, because robbery carries a shorter term than murder. This is why most burglars don't even carry weapons with them, and for that matter, try only to target homes where nobody is in.

 

That court case is about a domestic dispute - not a random burglar. If I had a violent ex with an axe to grind, I might consider a weapon for protection. Sure. Buuuuuut... I don't, and I don't think most of us are in that situation?

[Miss Peregrine]

This.

 

Btw, if it is helpful to anyone... I saw a cool video where they suggested wearing your backpack full of text books over your chest in a gun situation. In the demonstration the bullet went through a couple books but did not pass through the 3rd? I know, I know, lots of people don't have thick books handy (they're not used at all because everything is electronic or whatever or they are stored in their locker, etc.) but it still seemed worth passing along to me.

 

A local company here is selling bullet-proof backpacks.ðŸ˜

[Lanny]

OP I did not read  the replies because there are so many replies. I believe if they ask you about it, then you should respond. But, if they do not ask about it, I would not bring it up with  very young children.  As I have told my wife and my DD, if you are every where there is gunfire, get down on the floor/ground on your stomach and do not move.

[hepatica]

These drills take place in all schools that I know of in our area, private as well as public, elementary through high school.

 

Our kids already *are* getting gun education in schools, whether we'd choose it or not: this is it.

 

On another thread, a poster raised the point that the currently organizing and protesting kids have been doing such drills their whole school lives; that has informed them and forged a common experience between them that is not really accessible to those of us who didn't conduct such drills back in the day.

 

I agree the ship has already sailed. Many schools have moved beyond lockdown and are doing active shooter response. Good description my an elementary teacher here

https://www.vox.com/first-person/2018/2/19/17027294/parkland-florida-school-shooting-drills