s/o Attitudes towards care taking our parents & our kids

[marbel]

I'm very torn on this.  My mother lives with us.  At 93 she is in good health and likely to be so for the foreseeable future.  She moved in after an extended hospital stay; she gets so exhausted by small tasks that she can't cope with minor housekeeping duties.  She now needs company in a way that she never did before, so living alone with occasional visits/meals on wheels would not work.

 

We had planned on downsizing in order not to use up savings and become a burden on our own children.  She has money but for regulatory reasons if she gave us a lump sum to pay off our mortgage, we could be in trouble if she died soon or relied on government help hereafter.  I work full time; Husband has not been able to find full-time work after a lay-off.  She could afford to pay for an excellent care home.

 

Husband is 61 and having Mum around is wearing on him (and me).  He has some medical complaints that mean that I fear the next ten years could use up our best time together.

 

So: wanting a good ten years with my husband; not wanting to use up savings that would protect my own children from hardship in looking after me.  I guess that is selfish.

 

I would consider that settling a parent into a good care home is still helping them/caring for them, particularly if it can involve visits, outings, etc. My father had to spend the last few weeks of his life in a nursing home. My mother couldn't care for him alone; I had to work; the sibling who lived nearby had to work. There was no way to care for him at home.  We all spent as much time with him as we could; we took him out to dinner a few times (till he just couldn't go out anymore), we brought the local grandkids to see him.  He didn't love it, but he understood it was needed.

 

Now to be honest I have no idea how it's going to work out with my in-laws.  We will do what we can for them when their time comes, but I can see that my FIL's stubbornness is going to be an obstacle. They live in a beautiful but somewhat difficult place with few elder services (small mountain town that gets a lot of snow). It will be hard to get FIL off that mountain. My husband and I used to talk about moving closer to them (they are 700 miles away) but that time has passed for us for the foreseeable future.  But, we will do our best for them.  

[StephanieZ]

Thank you to so many who have shared your stories and your support. This is such a fraught issue. I appreciate hearing your thoughts. 

 

I won't rehash things I've already clearly expressed, but let me add and clarify some things.

 

I 100% agree with those who point out the physical burden and financial struggles of care giving. I do not, AT ALL, think that we or our families should have to sacrifice our health and well being to care giving. I believe that there should be societal and governmental support for this sort of caregiving. Medicaid/federal gov't pays for the vast majority of nursing home care, and I think that the government should provide support to home caregivers, too. Other countries have programs that provide respite care, visiting caregivers/bathing assistants, practical helps such as lifts/etc. Likewise, our church communities and extended family members can and should extend themselves to support those on the front lines. Church members and old friends should visit and help. So should the "other" siblings, nieces and nephews, etc. Hospice is invaluable and incredibly helpful. If everyone stepped up and helped, these burdens would not be so vast. 

 

I also believe that not everyone can do primary caregiving at home for financial or practical reasons, and that's totally understandable. I don't think it *should* be this way often, because I think the world should be a better place (see above), but it *is* this way, and I totally get it. Nonetheless, just because one can't do it all doesn't mean one can't value the doing of it and do what they can. Perhaps this looks like the child who can't do it all providing a few weeks a year of respite assistance for their sibling who *does* do it. (My brother did that for me/my mom.) Perhaps this looks like the child visiting 4 times a week for a couple hours each time. Whatever it looks like, it has value, and if we recognize that value, maybe society will step up and do more.

 

FTR, I used plenty of hired assistance with my mom. We had paid caregivers that assisted us. I (she -- her money) paid people to take her to yoga class, to take her to riding lessons, to take her to lunch, to keep her company, etc. I have no problem with having (excellent, carefully chosen) helpers, just like I had no problem hiring (excellent, carefully chosen) babysitters to help out with my kids. I also hired extensive cleaning and other practical helps during the height of Mom's illness. I made compromises and balanced needs among the many family members . . . It isn't all or nothing. We were very, very fortunate in that Mom and the finances to pay for her own needs and extensive care assistance. If she hadn't had money, our choices would have been much starker, and it would have been very, very difficult. I was and am very thankful that her money made things so much easier on us then they could have been. *That is not right.* No one should have lesser care because they have lesser money. 

 

Then again, my own mom's mom had no money, but that didn't stop my mom (and her sister) from providing excellent love and caregiving to their own mom. Grandma was in a nursing home for her last decade. She had no money, and both her daughters worked FT and had to do so, so living with one of them wasn't an option. But, my mom visited her *every day* and brought her to her own home for the day/evening for a full day each weekend and every single holiday. Mom's sister did similar, but slacked off somewhat after a few years to about half-speed. They did that while raising kids and working FT. They *did what they could* and it wasn't what I was able to do for my own mom, but it was what they could do and they valued it and did their best. 

 

My plea/argument is not so much that each of us must/should do all (or even most) of the physical or other care for our elders or that we have an obligation to sacrifice x/y/z on the altar of our parent, but that there *is value* in doing that caregiving. That it is meaningful and valuable, and that society and we ourselves should recognize the value and support it.

 

OK, I gotta' go teach biology and literature all day . . . Thank you for having this conversation with me. 

[Zinnia]

I hear what you're saying, but don't have the same experience/perspective. I think it IS esteemed to care for aging parents. Its very challenging but honored in my circle of the world. In a perfect world, dealing with 'normal....best thing since sliced bread, supportive parents who saw you thru everything' would be a natural relationship of reciprocity. Yet I can count on ONE hand the number of friends of mine who have parents like that. Its sad, but a reality. At least in my world.

 

Some thoughts:

 

1. The overwhelming majority of my friends do not live anywhere close to their parents- as in different states. Its a new generation that doesn't all live in a heap or within easy driving distance. In several cases, neither parents or children will relocate. In most cases, parents are moving to be near adult children.

 

 

This is my inlaws. We live where dh grew up. My inlaws retired to FL the summer we got married. They chose where they did partly based on a low cost of living, but that is because of a striking lack of economy except tourism. There are no jobs there.

 

They refuse to consider moving back to where we live, giving many, many excuses, but at the end of the day, they just don't want to. And we can not afford to go to them. We are only in our 40s, and inlaws need more ongoing help now (minor physical help, definitely emotional support), and in the next 10 years, will need much more. We will only be in our 50s, 20 years from retirement. A time we absolutely can not relocate away from jobs.

 

I figure they will stay where they are until crisis level, and then, we will force them to be closer to us.

[Sneezyone]

I think DH and I are more like our grandparents' generation than our parents. My grandparents and great grandparents lived independently and/or fully funded their own step down care. DH and I intend to do the same. The only parents we have to consider are my mom and dad. My dad lives with my stepmom and has lots of local caregivers and assistance through the VA. My mom is the one who's alone. We are looking at properties with single story granny suites to accommodate her presence. She's only 67 tho and her mother and grandparents all lived to be 90+. She fiercely values her independence and lives very far away. She may not want to leave her circle/state and we have no intention of living there again. Fortunately, my mom has *some* resources that we could put toward her care/respite.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Sneezyone

[BarbecueMom]

So the moral of the story is, don't be a jerk to your kids if you hope they help you out in old age!!

Also, if you need your children to "take care of you" long before you are elderly, the caregiving bucket won't be full by old age like it needs to be. You don't have to be abusive to be a difficult parent.

[Murphy101]

I'm very torn on this. My mother lives with us. At 93 she is in good health and likely to be so for the foreseeable future. She moved in after an extended hospital stay; she gets so exhausted by small tasks that she can't cope with minor housekeeping duties. She now needs company in a way that she never did before, so living alone with occasional visits/meals on wheels would not work.

 

We had planned on downsizing in order not to use up savings and become a burden on our own children. She has money but for regulatory reasons if she gave us a lump sum to pay off our mortgage, we could be in trouble if she died soon or relied on government help hereafter. I work full time; Husband has not been able to find full-time work after a lay-off. She could afford to pay for an excellent care home.

 

Husband is 61 and having Mum around is wearing on him (and me). He has some medical complaints that mean that I fear the next ten years could use up our best time together.

 

So: wanting a good ten years with my husband; not wanting to use up savings that would protect my own children from hardship in looking after me. I guess that is selfish.

I don't think that is selfish at all. I'd feel the same way. I DO feel the same way. Our entire lives have been spent paying bills and caring for others, and while I don't regret caring for others, I want time for Dh and I to enjoy a phase of not doing that. It is very unlikely we will ever get that, but I don't think it's selfish to want it. It's not like my wanting is causing me to care less about others.

[Guest]

My experience comes from parents who died before I was 30, watching my auntie take care of her mother, and now with the inlaws. 

 

The denigrating comes from people who are being nickel and dimed well before the parent actually needs care...death by a thousand cuts. No opportunity to live your own life and enjoy your children.

 

My Grandmother that needed care moved off the farm, into town and then when needing help in to big city with her retired dd that had the ability to take care of her. in an empty nest, it wasn't a burden, it was life.  She had a DNR, and didn't intend to drag it out, spending a decade in a home. They revived her anyway and it was three years of not knowing herself before she passed, but fortunately didn't need more than home care.

 

My parents did not ask me to quit my job, nor did they give me blow by blow details as the first passed.  One did the caregiving for the other, and both had the common sense to downsize and live near a medical center, rather than 'age in place' in a rural location with no medical facilities.   The second passed unexpectedly, as we were making the move arrangements to come live with me, near medical facilities and with transportation options. It would have been better if I could have moved, but I could not find a job in the area.

 

Fil choose his end.  Hospice plus morphine. We were called every few hours,mostly to come over and clean plus make mils' meal.   The demands had been there since the children were old enough to work, and never stopped.  She'll cry she doesn't want to be a burden if no one comes over and cleans, takes care of the home maintenance, delivers meals, plows the driveway, etc etc.  She won't size down. The dc and their spouses are being held hostage as always.  This in an area with plentiful low cost senior apt complexes, daily senior lunch at senior center,  senior transportation that is about a quarter each way in cost and includes daily routes to the medical care complexes in the nearest city, and all of the grocery stores and restaurants deliver.  You can't move without a 20something willing to be hired at below min wage just to get food money....there is that little in the way of jobs. After twenty years of this, she's decided since no one will quit work and come to her, she'll visit each child for dinner nightly, and sleepover in the event of snow for as long as it takes for it to melt off the driveway. The gc's wives are now the chaeuffers into medical appts.  And that is the negativity toward elder care.....it's the story of the Boy Who Cried Wolf. The dc are tapped out...and some of them actually want to enjoy their children and dc instead of yet more decades of service. Me, I'm tapped out too. I don't want to answer the phone -- its just another request for drop everything, go serve or its a rehash of how she doesn't want to go with her doctor's advice (simple things like put the prescripted drops in after cataract surgery) because its just too inconvenient. 

Edited October 18, 2017 by Heigh Ho

[medawyn]

First, I think it's somewhat misleading to think that elder care has not been a problem for millennia.  Just because there were far fewer options for elder car than adult children in generations past did not mean everyone had a pleasant attitude about it or that elders were treated with kindness and dignity.

 

I also think it's hugely problematic not to consider that the world has changed substantially in the past few generations.  Not right or wrong, but different.  We live longer, take MUCH longer to die (thanks to a medical model that is substantially required to preserve life at any cost), and we live in a society where two incomes are becoming a necessity not a luxury.  We have created a culture of independence that hugely impacts aging; setting aside a person's desire not to become a "burden" on children, there is also a strong prevailing attitude that an elder's independence should be respected at all costs.  I've seen that attitude create a huge problem for caregivers, even if the relationship is a wonderful one.  This extends to elders that refuse to leave their home when it is dangerous or too far from care to be even remotely practical, refuse assistance from in-home medical care, drive well past the point of safety, etc.

 

We also no longer live in a society of multi-generational families.  Often an elderly parent is moving into a home at the point where he or she is no longer capable of taking care of personal needs.  This can plunge families into the role of caregiver for someone with complex needs with little time to adjust to the situation.  Also, at this point, there are often changes in emotional or mental capacity, which means that the very youngest generation is only seeing the worst side of their grandparents rather than enjoying a more complex relationship.  In times where generations lived together or in closer proximity, the burden of elder care was not only potential shared by broader family relationships, but said relationships had developed in times of health so were stressed differently in times of need.  For example, one of my dear friends growing up had her grandmother living with them.  "Nanny" moved in when she was relatively young and definitely able-bodied, after she became a widow.  She was an integral part of the household, so that mom and dad were both able to work full time when the children were young.  As she aged, the financial burden was less, because the parents hadn't had to give up early careers to be home full time with young children.  The picture probably would have been different if she moved in twenty years after she did, at the peak of being unable to care for herself.

 

Finally, I don't think it is at all fair to compare raising children to caring for elders.  The care of an 8 pound infant in your 30s is significantly different than the care of a full grown adult in your 60s or 70s.  

 

Elder care IS a burden and a sacrifice. (By the way, so is raising children!)  That doesn't mean I don't believe personally that I have a responsibility to my parents as they age, but I think it's irresponsible  to discount all the many complicating factors inherent in elder care and complicated by our modern society.  Even in families where the relationships are wonderful and finances are secure, elder care is still a challenge.  Like all challenges, it can also be a blessing or enriching, but it's not as simple as just grin and bear it. 

 

P.S. I don't believe all elder care facilities are terrible places where people get shoved to die inhumanely.  I've known many people who thrive in a community where they can build relationships in old age rather than experience growing isolation, and where everyone benefits from knowledgable medical care to make daily life easier and, frankly, more dignified.  

[BarbecueMom]

The denigrating comes from people who are being nickel and dimed well before the parent actually needs care...death by a thousand cuts. No opportunity to live your own life and enjoy your children.

Yep, this. Death of a thousand cuts.

 

People talk about helping elderly parents with finances? I'm already doing that. Have been doing that ever since I was old enough to have money. I bought my first car in college with my own money, and left it at home the first two years so my mom could get to and from work after hers was repossessed.

 

Cleaning help? I go behind her back and clean her bathrooms before she hosts Christmas Eve dinner. She doesn't know how to clean a bathroom, or is too grossed out by it to clean it properly.

 

Moving parents in? BTDT. DH was on two anxiety medications just to live in the same house. She's not toxic or abusive. She's... a happy eight year old boy trapped in a mid-50s female body. It's not easy to not-parent that day in and day out. We can't do that again. Not unless we have a bigger house. And less small children.

 

Providing companionship so they don't get lonely? She was a single parent, never married, and has not dated since BEFORE I was born. I was the one she came home to after work to dish about the day and bounce problems and solutions off of.

 

The only thing I have not done is physical caregiving. Every other aspect of elder care has been going on in one iteration or another forever.

 

I love her and we are close, but it is not the normal parent-child relationship where the caregiving comes full circle after years of total independence on both sides. It's far more complicated than that.

 

I don't think that people who have married, or financially solvent, or completely neurotypical parents can truly understand that. And I sometimes resent that I do get it.

[solascriptura]

Another thought... I’m sure many of you have seen a very elderly woman or man going about with their elderly children. Think about it. Many live until their 90s these days. I’m often struck when I see two elderly women together, just to find out that they are daughter and mother. I could possibly be caring for my mother when I’m in my 70s. Almost all of my family members live well into their 90s. This scenario is entirely possible and then what if I’m not well? This care will be passed on to my children.

[SporkUK]

I'm not sure I agree with the premise that caring for a child or spouse is revered on a societal level, particularly - in the equivalency to elder care - those with significant disabilities. A lot of people and even charities created to help discuss at length family breakdowns and mental health issues for carers and pretty much the only time I hear the mainstream media or society discussing carers in any sort of revered way or how hard it is is when there is another story of a disabled person abused or murdered by their carers, whether it's by family or care homes, - big flurry of people promising help that never comes. I've spent most of my life being a carer, pretty much all of it being a disabled person as well, and no one in that dynamic gets any sort of social reverence most of time, most of it is us just caring for each other. 

 

I think disabled people in generally are dehumanized and carers get a pedestal when society wants to look nice but otherwise ignored as something everyone should do when no one really teaches anyone how and there is little space for anyone to talk about it. Disabled people get told we should be grateful, aren't we glad they don't ship of us of or worse, how worse it could be and carers get told we should be grateful we can, we chose to have them/stay with them, if we don't like it... It's a struggle that none of the programmes actually deal with and many of them around the world are having their budgets cut so it often goes too far before help is available if at all. Shoving it all in the house because we "should" doesn't help anyone and the attitude that have turned all of these into morals doesn't help much either.

 

We now have an older generation so afraid and disliking of the idea of being a 'burden' on their families because society is so values the illusion of independence and has turned it all into such an issue of character that, in recent UK survey, over half of older people viewed the TV their main social interaction and something like over 60% of disabled adults say they are pretty much always lonely because the social moral weight to care is also weighed with the moral weight not to need or ask for it. I run in my home a weekly group for disabled adults and it's not uncommon for the discussion to be how to get by with the least to others even when it costs us a lot. I think the moralistic view does nothing to aid that issue when it not only doesn't challenge but supports the concept that not doing it all ourselves makes us less than. 

[ErinE]

I'm very torn on this. My mother lives with us. At 93 she is in good health and likely to be so for the foreseeable future. She moved in after an extended hospital stay; she gets so exhausted by small tasks that she can't cope with minor housekeeping duties. She now needs company in a way that she never did before, so living alone with occasional visits/meals on wheels would not work.

:grouphug: I don't think you're selfish. I think you're conflicted and there's no easy answers. :grouphug:

[Hoggirl]

I am an only child, and both of my parents died when I was only 24 years old, so I will only have to contend with my in-laws who are 82 and 78. I can barely keep up with my mil. She is active both mentally and physically. She has a wide circle of friends and a vibrant social and volunteering life. She is pleasant and fun to be with. My FIL is a complete and total curmudgeon. He is a racist, selfish, controlling, know-it-all who expects mil to wait on him. She pretty much does. Not out of current necessity, but out of habit over 57 years. He has very few friends and mostly watches TV. His overall health is quite good, but, as a former Collegiate (and short-term professional) football player, has a TERRIBLE back. He does get out and walk each day, but he is rather shuffle-y, and he has a difficult time getting up and down out of a chair.

 

The natural assumption would be that she would outlive him, but one never knows. It will be much more challenging if she goes first or starts to have serious health issues. I seriously do not think fil knows how to run the dishwasher or washing machine. They are determined to age in place. When they built their home 16 years ago they put in wide doorways and halls with that in mind. Driving is a necessity where they live, but they are not rural and have access to decent medical care. Sil is about 45 minutes away, but we will 1,000 miles away whenever dh retires. Sil is not particularly happy about that. Dh is not close to his parents at all. No idea what will happen. At this point, it's not an issue.

 

I firmly believe that elderly parents need to make it as easy on their adult children as possible. To me, this means relocating to wherever the children are so they live near (not with) them. This makes frequent visits and oversight much easier. I understand not wanting to leave a long-term home when one's life is still vibrant and full, but when incapacities ramp up, what difference does it make where you live?

Edited October 19, 2017 by Hoggirl

[FaithManor]

Hoggirl, I get what you mean about that being waited on thing. Oh my word! My father figure........

 

Life skills is an important thing to address before it becomes a problem. Dh's aunt was widowed at 55 and had lived since the age of 17 with a very domineering husband. She had never been to a bank. She had never driven. She did not know even where her husband banked, and if they had money or not. She had never grocery shopped without him, you name it. She was like a young child in terms of independence. So dh's dad retired early - which was just barely affordable because MIL was still a nursing professor making decent money, bringing home health insurance, and such with a paid off house - and began training his sister in law to be an adult.

 

If any of you think you've got someone on your hands in the future that is used to not "doing for self", you may want to consider how to approach that. A sudden death is bad enough without the one left behind being unable to manage even the simplest of tasks while perfectly physically possible. FIL taught her to drive, rifled through all their files and found the insurance paperwork, social security numbers (she didn't even know her own much less his), taught her to grocery shop, bank, balance a checkbook, make doctor's office appointments, you name it. It took him a year to get her on his feet. I don't know what would have happened to her if he had not been able to retire to devote that time to her.

 

So definitely think about that. Some elders might be able to live independently, but don't know how. I don't think it's common, but from the early baby boomer generation in which gender roles were sometimes REALLY traditionally observed, there may be some out there that do not know how to manage the stuff that the spouse once did.

[dsmith]

We moved in with my in-laws knowing that in the future we would need to care for them. After helping my mom as much as I could when she was diagnosed with cancer, and going through some scary situations with my father-in-law I admit to being apprehensive for what the future holds, especially in light of my recently diagnosed health issues. I'm hopeful that we will have the financial means to have some hired help, as my mil did when caring for her mother. I know my sil and her family will help as much as they can, so that eases my fears. My grandmother lived with our family, from when she was 81 to 90 years old, until it became too dangerous for her to stay. She got out of the house a few times in the middle of the night, fell in the bathroom and nobody found out until the morning, almost blew up the house twice, etc. At that point the decision was made to send her to a nursing home. My parents had many health issues, we were kids, and her other children never did anything for her and refused to take her, so what other choice was there? I don't ever remember any talk of anyone being a burden from my parents or my in-laws, or anyone else taking care of their parents. Yes, they discussed challenges, broke down when things became difficult, etc. I don't know anyone who placed their parent(s) in a nursing home who didn't agonize over the decision. Not everyone has the means to care for an elderly ailing parent. 

[Bluegoat]

I haven't read any other responses yet.

I think there are a few reasons, but it comes down to cultural changes around independence and what people expect in terms of independence.  Not just the kids either, but also the parents.  A part of this is also related to having had a really economically successful period in history where quite a few people could realize that level of independence.

 

But practically, partly as a result of these changes, our lifestyles have changed in such a way that it actually makes it quite difficult to do this, even if you want to.  Homes and neighbourhoods are not designed to facilitate intergenerational care.  Most families have two full-time workers.  

 

And there are issues on the other end too.  Elders used to do a lot of work helping raise grandkids.  Now many can't, because they work themselves, or they don't want to - they feel they are finished with child-rearing and it's their turn to have fun and travel etc.  (I have to say, the cynical part of me wants to say, why does anyone ever think they get to have a carefree no-responsibilities time in life?  That is a myth if I ever heard one.)

 

Demographic changes like instability in communities so people move around, fewer kids, and having kids later, all make a difference.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Bluegoat

[SereneHome]

Didn't read the thread yet...

 

I come from a culture where it was unheard of NOT taking care of your family.  Good, bad and ugly.  So, that's the mindset I grew up with - you take care of your own.  But now I realize that I come from a very functional family, so it was easy to have that mindset

 

I still very much believe that with all my heart....BUT....after dealing with the situation with my IL's......  My husband thinks they were the perfect parents.  Not my place to say whether they were or not.  But I think if they made different choices through out their lives, they would be living a very different kind of life now.  And that makes me angry and resentful that we had to help them in certain ways bc of THEIR choices.

 

So, what do I know?  I got off my high horse of " you ALWAYS take care of your parents", to now "yeah, you take care of your parents, but...."

 

As far as me - I think the best gift you can give your children is your financial and otherwise independence, as long as you can.  So, I try to live and plan accordingly.  To the best of my abilities

[Bluegoat]

I'm wondering if I misunderstood the OP. I didn't get the sense that she was advocating keeping an elderly parent home and being sole caretaker under all circumstances.

 

But there are ways adult children can participate even when the parent has to be placed, for example, in a memory care facility for their own safety and that of others.

 

Years ago I knew a woman whose mother was in a nursing home. The woman decided it was too difficult to see her mom growing old, so she told her mother she was moving far away and couldn't visit anymore. It was a lie. She didn't move, she just wanted to stop visiting. What a horrid person.

 

Yeah, I didn't get that sense either.  All kinds of arrangements can make sense depending on the situation.  My graded lived in a facility near me since my Nana died, and he died there himself.  He was active and drove himself and such up until the last six months he was alive - he did everything but drive until the last week.  He preferred having his own place and could afford a nice seniors place.

 

His kids all pitched in to some extent, and it was necessary.  My mom did a lot of the technical stuff - making arrangements with the staff, taking care of his banking and such.  He needed help from family if he had health issues.  When he stopped driving, my disabled aunt took on the job of taking him around very day.

 

I don't see that as not taking up their responsibilities.  They were lucky that it was possible for him to live alone.  And it could be tiring at times anyway.

 

It's more the "this shouldn't be on me" thing I understood the OP to be getting at.

[SereneHome]

Read the thread...so so so many great points are made.  Not everyone can be a caretaker.  Distance.  Your own health concerns due to aging.  People having kids older, which means that they are still taking care of them.  Financial constraints.

 

And all that doesn't even take into consideration the relationships, personalities and interactions.

 

All I know that I am aging daily bc I am so stressed about my parents getting older - I am the only child and they are 400 miles away.

 

 

[skimomma]

Read the thread...so so so many great points are made.  Not everyone can be a caretaker.  Distance.  Your own health concerns due to aging.  People having kids older, which means that they are still taking care of them.  Financial constraints.

 

And all that doesn't even take into consideration the relationships, personalities and interactions.

 

All I know that I am aging daily bc I am so stressed about my parents getting older - I am the only child and they are 400 miles away.

 

This is our biggest hurdle.  I am 600 miles away and that is far closer than my only sibling.  And mom is not even sort of willing to move.  Putting aside the very real relationship, financial, job, and physical space issues, we cannot even get past GO because of location.  Even if we could somehow find an assisted living situation in the only location she is willing to live, that had openings, was affordable, and that my mom was agreeable to, I am still 10 hours away.  And I work.  How to visit or shop or handle finances or make sure the facility is doing their job properly?

 

In a perfect world, mom would live near my sister or me.  Independently with help from us and then likely in a facility of some sort with frequent visiting, outings, and oversight.  My house is pretty much physically impossible for anyone with mobility issues that my mom already has.  But.  She will not even consider relocating and fully expects one of us to move to her when needed.  Her biggest issue is rapidly declining cognitive functioning so as time goes on, she digs in deeper and deeper with less ability ti reason through the logistics.

 

I want to help.  I can help.  But there are limits to what I can do without unreasonably impacting my and my family's life.  It takes both sides.  From someone outside looking in, I appear to be a cold-hearted brat who won't take care of her mother.  

[Guest]

 

I want to help. I can help. But there are limits to what I can do without unreasonably impacting my and my family's life. It takes both sides. From someone outside looking in, I appear to be a cold-hearted brat who won't take care of her mother.

I have been approached by people in mil's life asking what the real circumstances are. The bottom line is that she does what she pleases and until she becomes a danger she can't be forced to live in a way that optimizes her health. She can,however, soak the taxpayer with preventable medical needs.

[Bluegoat]

This is our biggest hurdle.  I am 600 miles away and that is far closer than my only sibling.  And mom is not even sort of willing to move.  Putting aside the very real relationship, financial, job, and physical space issues, we cannot even get past GO because of location.  Even if we could somehow find an assisted living situation in the only location she is willing to live, that had openings, was affordable, and that my mom was agreeable to, I am still 10 hours away.  And I work.  How to visit or shop or handle finances or make sure the facility is doing their job properly?

 

In a perfect world, mom would live near my sister or me.  Independently with help from us and then likely in a facility of some sort with frequent visiting, outings, and oversight.  My house is pretty much physically impossible for anyone with mobility issues that my mom already has.  But.  She will not even consider relocating and fully expects one of us to move to her when needed.  Her biggest issue is rapidly declining cognitive functioning so as time goes on, she digs in deeper and deeper with less ability ti reason through the logistics.

 

I want to help.  I can help.  But there are limits to what I can do without unreasonably impacting my and my family's life.  It takes both sides.  From someone outside looking in, I appear to be a cold-hearted brat who won't take care of her mother.  

 

I think this is the kind of thing that should be on the side of the question of caring for elders - what do ageing parents owe to their kids?

 

I think parents need to think hard about the realities of ageing far away from family.  In general, it is often going to be impractical for working people to just up and move to care for their parents.  Even if it isn't their preference, the parents need to be realistic about location and being there when the time comes that they need the help - not later on.

[Guest]

Whenever these threads come up, I feel such a mix of sadness and dread.  Sadness that so many people are angry at their parents for not doing everything possible to plan their lives so perfectly in order not to run out of money, or get sick, or need a place to live... And dread that my husband and I are not doing enough now to ensure that our own kids are never complaining about us on message boards in the future.

 

I'm pretty sure that 90% of parents don't want to be burdens on their kids.  Fear of that kept my mother from enjoying her last, I don't know, 10 years of life, at least, no matter what we (sibling and me) told her, how much we tried to reassure her that she didn't need to worry.  Most people do the best they can, but things don't always work out the way we plan them to.   

 

And in my recent experience, some of the ways the elderly go about "being no burden on their children" is actually a lot more burdensome.  It's like the CS Lewis character who "doesn't want to be a burden" on her hostess, so when the hostess brings a lovely cup of tea and a slice of yummy cake, the guest who doesn't want to be a burden (haha) says, "Oh, no, take it away!  That is much too much for a simple person like me!  Just a thinly sliced piece of bread and a glass of water, that will do for me!"  In other words, she is much more of a burden by her "simplicity" than she would be if she accepted the generous offering.

 

I have friends who are in this position with their "don't want to be a burden" parents who are really just stubborn and won't accept the help that is offered, demanding that which looks like less but is really a larger burden (involving travel, multiple healthcare-emergency management situations, often from another state, requiring a lot more sacrifice from the children than would have their original generous offer.

 

All that said, I am in line with what the OP and Carol in CA said upthread.  And I know it is not always perfect--it has not been so in our case, but we have been enormously blessed by doing what we can do.  And it has shone a hard light on our character and my dh has come out golden.  What a man.  

[Laura Corin]

I think this is the kind of thing that should be on the side of the question of caring for elders - what do ageing parents owe to their kids?

 

I think parents need to think hard about the realities of ageing far away from family.  In general, it is often going to be impractical for working people to just up and move to care for their parents.  Even if it isn't their preference, the parents need to be realistic about location and being there when the time comes that they need the help - not later on.

 

My mum resisted all help and offers to move her close to us.  When the health crisis came, it was much harder to deal with moving her, and she wasn't able emotionally to deal with living on her own any more.  If she had planned that move five years earlier, it would have been a lot easier on everyone.  Even if she had moved into some kind of monitored housing in her own neighbourhood, that would have smoothed the transition.

[AMJ]

I find it really surprising how widespread the attitude is that care taking for an elder relative is a burden and will ruin your life/family/marriage/kids/etc. I've heard it over and over and over, especially when I was actively doing that for my mom . . . It still shocks and confuses me when I hear it, especially in a homeschooling forum, presumably populated mostly by parents who are clearly pretty driven to *personally* take great care of their kids and make sacrifices to do that . . .

 

Why is the care taking of our elders so denigrated when the caregiving of our kids and spouses is so revered?

 

I understand that care taking for our elders can be a burden financially and practically. I understand that if your elders were assholes and/or grossly irresponsible financially or otherwise, that it's not "fair" for their care to fall on you . . . But, let's say we take off the table parents/elders who've been hateful/evil and/or grossly irresponsible . . . Let's just give everyone permission to kick those folks to the curb and leave them to fend for themselves . . . Fine. I'm *not talking* about the abusive parents, the ones who ran through millions on diamonds and furs and saved not a nickel for retirement, the ones who are just mean/awful to you or your family . . . I'm not talking about those folks . . . 

 

. . .  and so, now we're just talking about ordinary, decent, loving, did the best they could elders/parents along with some fantastic, were the best thing since sliced bread (like my mom) kinds of parents.

 

Talking just about those good elders in our lives . . . why don't we honor and value the care we, as their youngers, can give? We sooooo value (over value?) the caregiving we give to our own children, and sometimes we also honor and value the caregiving we do for our spouse (or at least we talk a good game about it) . . .

 

But, somehow, reciprocating that loving/adoration/service that our parents gave to us . . . somehow, that's crap? Somehow that's ruining us? What makes us so damn fragile? We're tough enough to homeschool a half dozen (or more) runny nosed kids through their bratty attitudes, slammed doors, and awkward phases, maybe through a drug bust or car wrecks or a teen pregnancy . . . still loving, still serving them . . . and we can honor sticking with a spouse who might have a porn habit or an affair or a bad habit of spending what we don't have . . .

 

But, our elders? Those who loved us through our own failures and held us up when we hurt and put us on the right path when we were heading down the wrong one? The ones we knew we could call on when our husband left or we failed out of school? Those ones? They're somehow a burden? We're too fragile to make some sacrifices to serve *them*? 

 

Maybe I'm overly sensitive, being orphaned at age 44 . . . by two parents who really were "all that" and more, as imperfect as they were, they were exactly everything I needed them to be and so much more. But, I really think there is something very wrong with our culture that we're so intently devaluing something that is precious and vital. Taking our turn as the responsible one . . . taking that turn parenting our parents. It's brutally hard, but it's also brutally human. It just is what it is. Helping my mom figure out how to put on her dress was just as human as was suckling my babies. It is just human existence, and it is everything. It made me more of a human being to go through what I went through with Mom. I wouldn't trade it for anything. I miss her every day, not just the mom she was before dementia stole her from me, but also the mom she was when she looked to me as if I were *her* believed parent, the trust and confidence she had in me turned me into someone better and stronger than I was before she *needed* me. 

 

So, anyway, I don't get it. I think our culture needs to re-look at the value of being a caretaker of our elders. Maybe this is the next front for feminism, right after we finish reasserting the value of care taking of our own children. Maybe after we abolish preschools and day care centers, we can abolish nursing homes. In my perfect world, no human being would be institutionalized if there was an alternative place where they could be cared for by *people who love them*.

 

What do you think?

 

 

I think perhaps to begin with it's a matter of who you are hearing.  The people with good, salt-of-the-earth, easy-to-care-for parents -- the people willing to care for their parents -- these people aren't spending their energies going out and about (IRL or online) to talk about their willingness to care; they are getting on with the business of caring for their folks.

 

Consider this: the vast majority of drivers on our streets and roads, especially on commute routes, are good drivers, attentive, following the rules and common sense.  All it takes, however, are a few poor drivers or decided twerps driving selfishly and/or dangerously, and the impression is that "everyone" is doing so.  

 

It is the same way with caregivers.  The ones you seem to want to hear from are too busy getting on with the business to be vocal and obvious, so they are the most easily overlooked.

 

 

Now, consider people who are new to care-giving for aging or ailing relatives.  They have little or no clue where to begin, and when they try to start finding out what to do and how to do it they not only are overwhelmed with the enormity of the task and all of the nit-picky little details to be tended to ON SOMEONE ELSE'S SCHEDULE (often several someone elses' schedules), they have to fit this into their already packed and over-scheduled lives.  AND they often get push-back from the very family they are trying to help because said family is afraid of the erosion of their own independence.

 

Caregivers are under enormous strain, and frequently do not have the resources they need to seamlessly see to all of the needs and desires of their ailing relatives.  Just because they are taking on a new responsibility doesn't mean they necessarily have the opportunity to drop or reduce other responsibilities.  Kids still need caring for.  Income must still be earned.  Bills must still be paid at home, as well as on behalf of the new care charge.  Doctors appointments, not just for the ailing relative, but for the rest of the family (and the caregivers' own selves).  Often the elderly relatives don't need or want help until the caregiver is physically challenged, with health issues of his or her own.  It's one thing to help one's parent dress while one is young and fit.  It's another thing entirely to attempt this when one's own knees are osteoarthritic and prone to giving out on occasion.

 

Caregivers need a chance to look after their own needs, and sometimes those needs include a chance to vent, to voice their frustrations, their upset, their anger, their feeling of being trapped.  If caregivers don't get sufficient care themselves (and they so often don't), if they cannot talk to anyone about all of the stress they are under, they more quickly become not only unable to continue to care for the aging or ailing relative, they become in need of care themselves; they shift to the other side of the equation.

 

This isn't just the lot of newbie caregivers, either.  Providing such care can go on for years or decades, unrelentingly, no vacations, no breaks, at times with no guarantee EVER of even 2 hours of uninterrupted sleep.  The cared-for individual's needs and demands change over time, and those needs and demands rarely decrease.  Inflation erodes the working power of the so-often fixed income available to see to those needs, and yet the caregiver must come up with someway to meet the shortfall, even if said caregiver had a very tight budget before taking on the care of yet another dependent.

 

Realistically this should be a team effort, but so often there simply is no team to call on.  Some individuals needing care are lucky to have even just one person to take on the task, however unprepared that person may be.

 

 

I disagree with you; I do not believe our culture, our society, encourages the abandonment of our elderly.  I do not believe people are simply unwilling to care for the very people that took care of them when they were younger.  I believe that the majority of the people you think feel this way either are overwhelmed beyond their capabilities and looking for help, or they have other reasons (probably good reasons, though you may never know what those reasons are) for why they are unwilling -- more likely unable -- to care for their elderly to the extent you might expect.

 

 

Don't assume that just because people aren't taking their elderly into their own homes that said people don't care.  Consider instead that perhaps you do not know the full story, and are in no position, much less need, to judge.  

[Bluegoat]

As for the question of how society feels about the elderly - I do think that one unintended consequence of the professionalization of care, and segregating people by age or in small families, has been that people become less comfortable with people in other age groups.

 

This seems to apply both to toddlers, school kids, and the elderly.  It's not uncommon to find young adults who have no idea what to do with a baby, or who have never spent real time with an elderly person.  And this hasn't been great for our ability to take others perspectives into account.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Bluegoat

[AMJ]

My mum resisted all help and offers to move her close to us.  When the health crisis came, it was much harder to deal with moving her, and she wasn't able emotionally to deal with living on her own any more.  If she had planned that move five years earlier, it would have been a lot easier on everyone.  Even if she had moved into some kind of monitored housing in her own neighbourhood, that would have smoothed the transition.

 

 

I have a similar situation with my Dad.  Seven years ago he asked me to find him someplace close to us, then fought me tooth and nail on every option I came up with and started berating me for overstepping my authority when I would perform a task he asked me to do 3 times -- simply because the result wasn't to his liking.

 

Now the crisis has come.  He lives 1200 miles away and wants me to hurry up and get him moved, while not rushing him and letting him call all of the shots.  I'm working on it, but I have to deal with a lot of resentment -- Dad's resentment of the necessity of depending upon his daughter for anything, and my DH's resentment of how shabbily Dad treated me the last time we went through this.  

 

 

There are plenty of people who look at my Dad and his current living situation and wonder what kind of lousy kid Dad must have, that I haven't taken care of this yet.  I tried, da** it, I tried.  He wouldn't let me.

[AMJ]

This is our biggest hurdle.  I am 600 miles away and that is far closer than my only sibling.  And mom is not even sort of willing to move.  Putting aside the very real relationship, financial, job, and physical space issues, we cannot even get past GO because of location.  Even if we could somehow find an assisted living situation in the only location she is willing to live, that had openings, was affordable, and that my mom was agreeable to, I am still 10 hours away.  And I work.  How to visit or shop or handle finances or make sure the facility is doing their job properly?

 

In a perfect world, mom would live near my sister or me.  Independently with help from us and then likely in a facility of some sort with frequent visiting, outings, and oversight.  My house is pretty much physically impossible for anyone with mobility issues that my mom already has.  But.  She will not even consider relocating and fully expects one of us to move to her when needed.  Her biggest issue is rapidly declining cognitive functioning so as time goes on, she digs in deeper and deeper with less ability ti reason through the logistics.

 

I want to help.  I can help.  But there are limits to what I can do without unreasonably impacting my and my family's life.  It takes both sides.  From someone outside looking in, I appear to be a cold-hearted brat who won't take care of her mother.  

 

 

Boy, do I hear you.   :grouphug:

[FaithManor]

I think perhaps to begin with it's a matter of who you are hearing.  The people with good, salt-of-the-earth, easy-to-care-for parents -- the people willing to care for their parents -- these people aren't spending their energies going out and about (IRL or online) to talk about their willingness to care; they are getting on with the business of caring for their folks.

 

Consider this: the vast majority of drivers on our streets and roads, especially on commute routes, are good drivers, attentive, following the rules and common sense.  All it takes, however, are a few poor drivers or decided twerps driving selfishly and/or dangerously, and the impression is that "everyone" is doing so.  

 

It is the same way with caregivers.  The ones you seem to want to hear from are too busy getting on with the business to be vocal and obvious, so they are the most easily overlooked.

 

 

Now, consider people who are new to care-giving for aging or ailing relatives.  They have little or no clue where to begin, and when they try to start finding out what to do and how to do it they not only are overwhelmed with the enormity of the task and all of the nit-picky little details to be tended to ON SOMEONE ELSE'S SCHEDULE (often several someone elses' schedules), they have to fit this into their already packed and over-scheduled lives.  AND they often get push-back from the very family they are trying to help because said family is afraid of the erosion of their own independence.

 

Caregivers are under enormous strain, and frequently do not have the resources they need to seamlessly see to all of the needs and desires of their ailing relatives.  Just because they are taking on a new responsibility doesn't mean they necessarily have the opportunity to drop or reduce other responsibilities.  Kids still need caring for.  Income must still be earned.  Bills must still be paid at home, as well as on behalf of the new care charge.  Doctors appointments, not just for the ailing relative, but for the rest of the family (and the caregivers' own selves).  Often the elderly relatives don't need or want help until the caregiver is physically challenged, with health issues of his or her own.  It's one thing to help one's parent dress while one is young and fit.  It's another thing entirely to attempt this when one's own knees are osteoarthritic and prone to giving out on occasion.

 

Caregivers need a chance to look after their own needs, and sometimes those needs include a chance to vent, to voice their frustrations, their upset, their anger, their feeling of being trapped.  If caregivers don't get sufficient care themselves (and they so often don't), if they cannot talk to anyone about all of the stress they are under, they more quickly become not only unable to continue to care for the aging or ailing relative, they become in need of care themselves; they shift to the other side of the equation.

 

This isn't just the lot of newbie caregivers, either.  Providing such care can go on for years or decades, unrelentingly, no vacations, no breaks, at times with no guarantee EVER of even 2 hours of uninterrupted sleep.  The cared-for individual's needs and demands change over time, and those needs and demands rarely decrease.  Inflation erodes the working power of the so-often fixed income available to see to those needs, and yet the caregiver must come up with someway to meet the shortfall, even if said caregiver had a very tight budget before taking on the care of yet another dependent.

 

Realistically this should be a team effort, but so often there simply is no team to call on.  Some individuals needing care are lucky to have even just one person to take on the task, however unprepared that person may be.

 

 

I disagree with you; I do not believe our culture, our society, encourages the abandonment of our elderly.  I do not believe people are simply unwilling to care for the very people that took care of them when they were younger.  I believe that the majority of the people you think feel this way either are overwhelmed beyond their capabilities and looking for help, or they have other reasons (probably good reasons, though you may never know what those reasons are) for why they are unwilling -- more likely unable -- to care for their elderly to the extent you might expect.

 

 

Don't assume that just because people aren't taking their elderly into their own homes that said people don't care.  Consider instead that perhaps you do not know the full story, and are in no position, much less need, to judge.  

Yes, this exactly. Thank you!

[regentrude]

My mum resisted all help and offers to move her close to us.  When the health crisis came, it was much harder to deal with moving her, and she wasn't able emotionally to deal with living on her own any more.  If she had planned that move five years earlier, it would have been a lot easier on everyone.  Even if she had moved into some kind of monitored housing in her own neighbourhood, that would have smoothed the transition.

 

But I can see how it is very hard to find the right point to move. My grandmother worked, doing pedicures in her home studio, until she was in her mid-eighties. It gave her connections, she was part of her community, and she loved knowing people. When my parents encouraged her to move into their city, 2.5 hours away, she did not want to, because she had lived in her home for 65 years; she had moved in there as a bride and was at home in her community. However, her good friends, all older than her, died, and she became very lonely and depressed in her last years. She died at 91 in the bed she first slept in as a bride at age 20.

 

I am an extrovert, and friendships and connections are extremely important to me, so I completely understand grandma's reluctance to leave her familiar surroundings to be closer to her family. In her last years, she regretted that she had not done so.

[Laura Corin]

But I can see how it is very hard to find the right point to move. My grandmother worked, doing pedicures in her home studio, until she was in her mid-eighties. It gave her connections, she was part of her community, and she loved knowing people. When my parents encouraged her to move into their city, 2.5 hours away, she did not want to, because she had lived in her home for 65 years; she had moved in there as a bride and was at home in her community. However, her good friends, all older than her, died, and she became very lonely and depressed in her last years. She died at 91 in the bed she first slept in as a bride at age 20.

 

I am an extrovert, and friendships and connections are extremely important to me, so I completely understand grandma's reluctance to leave her familiar surroundings to be closer to her family. In her last years, she regretted that she had not done so.

I can see that if you are a social person. My mum is not. She had no friends, nor did she want any at the time. The older she got, the more difficult the move sounded to her, in practical terms. She did not believe that my brother and I would take care of it for her (as we finally did). She just hoped to die, so she wouldn't have to deal with it.

 

We are planning to move to a smaller, convenient home in the next few years and to set up formal reviews of our situation with our children at least every five years, once they are adult, so we can all express our hopes and fears.

[eternalsummer]

What bothers me is the idea that, like my in-laws have done, you can decide that caring for your own elderly is too hard, or too stressful, or too disgusting, or too tiring, and then just pay someone else to do it (someone who has less financial options that you, obviously, and is willing to do this hard, stressful, disgusting, tiring, dangerous work because they need the money).  In my in-laws case they could have taken the grandparents in and paid from their inheritance for tasks they couldn't do, or even for things like respite care or housecleaning.  But what they want to do is sit around and garden and drink beer and socialize all day, or work toward their (pointless, monetarily) phD, or move to a new state with their new spouse, so they are happy to pay someone less fortunate than them a terrible wage to do the hard work that is their responsibility.

 

I mean, I have reservations about paying a housecleaner less than you make to clean up after you because you don't want to clean up after yourself, so I'm obviously on sort of one end of the spectrum.  But the idea of paying someone to take care of your own loved ones so that you can visit them once a month or take them out to lunch on their birthday and otherwise wash your hands of them - it's only possible because we have such a wealth disparity, and so many young, poor, (usually women, usually minority) people who are willing to do it for less than my in-laws would take to do anything, much less such a difficult and thankless job.

 

I say all of this separate of actual physical or mental issues that make cleaning up after yourself or taking care of your children/parents difficult or impossible.  My in-laws are healthy, young Boomers with money, stability, and lots of spare time.  They're just selfish.

[marbel]

I suppose really the attitude that bothers me is that one must plan for an absolutely independent old age, or be a burden. 

 

Many of us have no hope of planning for an absolutely independent old age. Does that make us terrible parents, or just parents without access to a lot of money ?

 

I am very wary of the term 'burden'. There has been no elderly person in my life I would have wished to consider themselves 'a burden''. It's awful. Caring may be a burden, but a person is a person. A person cannot be 'a burden'.

 

We can't promote societies where our elderly must live up to some kind of non-interdependent standard or be considered a 'burden'. It's horrible. It makes me think of The Giver.

 

Oh, I agree with you.  But that attitude is what I see here on threads from time to time.

 

But not everyone has a life that affords that kind of savings and planning.  Not everyone can stash the $3 million (was that per person?) that someone on another thread a while back said  was needed for retirement in the US these days (quoted from some financial calculator, I guess). 

 

Or sometimes people do their best to stash away as much as they can, and then something like the Great Depression or 2008 happens.  I've seen people blithely say "Oh, well, the market will turn again, just have to wait it out!"  But the people who were going to have to retire next year were not saying that.  Nor were people already living off their retirement savings, and seeing a rather large percentage of it disappear overnight.   Or people who had a house with a decent amount of equity... till one day the value dropped and they were left with little to no equity after all. 

 

Re: the bolded. So, so true. 

[Rosie_0801]

I suppose really the attitude that bothers me is that one must plan for an absolutely independent old age, or be a burden. 

 

Yeah. All my money until recently went into educating my child so she had a chance to do better in life. For the next 7.5 years, most of my money must go into helping her cope with her lousy life, so she still has some chance of doing better in life. After that, I'd better look to my super...

[MinivanMom]

I feel very uncomfortable with making whether we have "taken the grandparents in" the litmus test for whether we value our parents/family enough. Choosing to live in a multi-generational household for the foreseeable future (which could potentially be decades) is not something anyone is required to do in order to prove they love their parents or value connection between the generations. You are talking about potentially giving up the rest of your life to elder care tasks. 

 

I'm genuinely surprised at the amount of judgment in this thread. There is a lot of room between "my wonderful parents cared for me and now, by taking them into my home for a few months prior to death, everything has come full circle" and the token caveat "well, unless they were abusive". A lot of room. There are so many situations, many of which have already been mentioned on this thread, that fall in that murky grey area in the middle. And there are so many situations where taking the grandparents into your own home is simply not possible or reasonable from a medical or safety standpoint.

 

My grandmother used to say, "I don't want to be a burden," and I always said, "Why would you ever think you could be a burden?" But my grandmother had far more wisdom and life experience than I did. She had seen people worn down by decades of caregiving. She had seen friends selfishly expect their children to give up their whole lives, their own families, and their own retirement savings to support them. She loved her own family too much to deliberately do that to them. My grandmother had only a 3rd grade education and carefully lived off a very small pension & social security, but she took care of her health, she prepaid her funeral & burial expenses, and she spread her (reasonable) needs and requests among her children and grandchildren. She was fortunate enough to have the good health to live independently until 6 months before her death, and those last 6 months of caregiving were a blessing to those involved. 

 

But I have seen too many situations where someone gave up their whole life . . . literally, their whole life and their own health . . . for years & decades as a caregiver to pass judgment on anyone facing these hard choices.

[Melissa in Australia]

Another thought... I’m sure many of you have seen a very elderly woman or man going about with their elderly children. Think about it. Many live until their 90s these days. I’m often struck when I see two elderly women together, just to find out that they are daughter and mother. I could possibly be caring for my mother when I’m in my 70s. Almost all of my family members live well into their 90s. This scenario is entirely possible and then what if I’m not well? This care will be passed on to my children.

that will be me. My mother is only 16 years older than me. our family typically live  into their late 90's though the females tend to die a little younger

[Valley Girl]

I suppose really the attitude that bothers me is that one must plan for an absolutely independent old age, or be a burden. 

 

 

Worrying about retirement literally keeps me awake nights because I don't want to be resented for not having the fat 401K and long-term care policy in place. When we were young and both employed full time, we had a great plan that would have seen us in a good position when we reached retirement age. Then long-term unemployment hit and devastated us financially followed by a couple of shorter periods of unemployment that drained our savings again (thank you, health insurance premiums). Add in one kid's needs that threw us into homeschooling and derailed my plans to return to work, medical issues, etc., etc. Yeah, so much for the plan.

 

You can do your utmost to try to square things away for your later years. But life happens. If absolute independence financially is now a requirement instead of a goal, that has implications for families, too.

[MotherGoose]

I feel very uncomfortable with making whether we have "taken the grandparents in" the litmus test for whether we value our parents/family enough. Choosing to live in a multi-generational household for the foreseeable future (which could potentially be decades) is not something anyone is required to do in order to prove they love their parents or value connection between the generations. You are talking about potentially giving up the rest of your life to elder care tasks.

 

I'm genuinely surprised at the amount of judgment in this thread. There is a lot of room between "my wonderful parents cared for me and now, by taking them into my home for a few months prior to death, everything has come full circle" and the token caveat "well, unless they were abusive". A lot of room. There are so many situations, many of which have already been mentioned on this thread, that fall in that murky grey area in the middle. And there are so many situations where taking the grandparents into your own home is simply not possible or reasonable from a medical or safety standpoint.

 

My grandmother used to say, "I don't want to be a burden," and I always said, "Why would you ever think you could be a burden?" But my grandmother had far more wisdom and life experience than I did. She had seen people worn down by decades of caregiving. She had seen friends selfishly expect their children to give up their whole lives, their own families, and their own retirement savings to support them. She loved her own family too much to deliberately do that to them. My grandmother had only a 3rd grade education and carefully lived off a very small pension & social security, but she took care of her health, she prepaid her funeral & burial expenses, and she spread her (reasonable) needs and requests among her children and grandchildren. She was fortunate enough to have the good health to live independently until 6 months before her death, and those last 6 months of caregiving were a blessing to those involved.

 

But I have seen too many situations where someone gave up their whole life . . . literally, their whole life and their own health . . . for years & decades as a caregiver to pass judgment on anyone facing these hard choices.

Totally agree. My in laws, who are in their late sixties and in very poor health, are bathing and dressing and never able to leave grandpa for a moment due to caregiving needs. I wish they could or would pay someone young and healthy to wrestle him into his clothes and bathe him, not them who have had multiple surgeries and illnesses.

[solascriptura]

I feel very uncomfortable with making whether we have "taken the grandparents in" the litmus test for whether we value our parents/family enough. Choosing to live in a multi-generational household for the foreseeable future (which could potentially be decades) is not something anyone is required to do in order to prove they love their parents or value connection between the generations. You are talking about potentially giving up the rest of your life to elder care tasks.

 

I'm genuinely surprised at the amount of judgment in this thread. There is a lot of room between "my wonderful parents cared for me and now, by taking them into my home for a few months prior to death, everything has come full circle" and the token caveat "well, unless they were abusive". A lot of room. There are so many situations, many of which have already been mentioned on this thread, that fall in that murky grey area in the middle. And there are so many situations where taking the grandparents into your own home is simply not possible or reasonable from a medical or safety standpoint.

 

My grandmother used to say, "I don't want to be a burden," and I always said, "Why would you ever think you could be a burden?" But my grandmother had far more wisdom and life experience than I did. She had seen people worn down by decades of caregiving. She had seen friends selfishly expect their children to give up their whole lives, their own families, and their own retirement savings to support them. She loved her own family too much to deliberately do that to them. My grandmother had only a 3rd grade education and carefully lived off a very small pension & social security, but she took care of her health, she prepaid her funeral & burial expenses, and she spread her (reasonable) needs and requests among her children and grandchildren. She was fortunate enough to have the good health to live independently until 6 months before her death, and those last 6 months of caregiving were a blessing to those involved.

 

But I have seen too many situations where someone gave up their whole life . . . literally, their whole life and their own health . . . for years & decades as a caregiver to pass judgment on anyone facing these hard choices.

I absolutely agree. That last paragraph is my best friend. From age 16 to our current age. While paying for her own education, she had to pay for so many adult expenses due to poor money management and the health problems of her parents. She’s struggled with depression for decades. How could anyone expect her to be otherwise. This is a reality for many.

[Arcadia]

My in-laws have their favorites and ignore my kids so not the set of parents you are asking about. My parents are still helping us financially and would continue to be more financially stable then us due to my dad’s pension plan and health benefits. So we are a burden to my parents rather than the other way round.

 

But I have seen too many situations where someone gave up their whole life . . . literally, their whole life and their own health . . . for years & decades as a caregiver to pass judgment on anyone facing these hard choices.

I agree. My single friend is in her 40s. Her dad is financially okay but the last four live in aides he had were irresponsible. She quitted her job to be at home to “oversee†the live in aide. Her only sibling is undergoing a messy divorce and can’t help much besides driving their dad to some of the medical appointments. It is going to be hard on my friend to re-enter the work force next time and she had been taking care of her dad for more than a decade while working. Her own old age is going to be tough with little retirement savings and being already emotionally and physically drained. Edited October 19, 2017 by Arcadia

[KungFuPanda]

I almost wish my house had a small, accessible apartment attached to it.  It could be used for guests when your kids are young, for a disabled child or grandparent, or poor young couple just starting out.  Later, as the couple gains wealth and starts their own family, you could trade and have the empty nesters move into the apartment and start the cycle all over again.  I guess this is why they invented those granny pod things. For some people the hurdle for helping is having accessible space.

[Guest]

 

 

We can't promote societies where our elderly must live up to some kind of non-interdependent standard or be considered a 'burden'. It's horrible. It makes me think of The Giver.

 

I have to disagree.  Capable people have a responsibility to not ask for unneeded help, and they have a responsibility to plan the community so that people can actually live help free. It is a burden to be asked to do things for people that are perfectly capable of doing it themselves -- sucks the extra cash right out of families, money that would be better spent on educating youth and developing assists for people who truly need help for their physical limitations.  Same for the unnecessary medical costs induced by not taking the responsiblity of managing one's health.  Of the 80-90 year old  friends, the big reason they are thriving is because they view themselves as responsible for their health -- they didn't hit 55 and sit while eating takeout daily because they were 'tired' of cooking -- they garden, they exercise, they eat well.   One of the discussion topics here in our town is walkability.  Stupid things were done in the past to force people into cars instead of walking -- for example, sidewalk runs from senior apt until 1 block before a grocery store, and the sidewalk owners don't clean the snow off.  Is that really helpful in a population where there are more seniors than caregivers?  All that is needed is 1 more block of sidewalk, and enforcing the snow removal law, and people don't need to a vehicle.  Or we could just declare that zone golf cart only and use the road, just like the group home does with wheelchair residents....they wouldn't need someone with them if there were accessible paths.   Better planning means more independence, less cost, and we see that in some of the gentrified areas where walkability is high.

 

Edited October 19, 2017 by Heigh Ho

[Bluegoat]

I have to disagree.  Capable people have a responsibility to not ask for unneeded help, and they have a responsibility to plan the community so that people can actually live help free. It is a burden to be asked to do things for people that are perfectly capable of doing it themselves -- sucks the extra cash right out of families, money that would be better spent on educating youth and developing assists for people who truly need help for their physical limitations.  Same for the unnecessary medical costs induced by not taking the responsiblity of managing one's health.  Of the 80-90 year old  friends, the big reason they are thriving is because they view themselves as responsible for their health -- they didn't hit 55 and sit while eating takeout daily because they were 'tired' of cooking -- they garden, they exercise, they eat well.   One of the discussion topics here in our town is walkability.  Stupid things were done in the past to force people into cars instead of walking -- for example, sidewalk runs from senior apt until 1 block before a grocery store, and the sidewalk owners don't clean the snow off.  Is that really helpful in a population where there are more seniors than caregivers?  All that is needed is 1 more block of sidewalk, and enforcing the snow removal law, and people don't need to a vehicle.  Or we could just declare that zone golf cart only and use the road, just like the group home does with wheelchair residents....they wouldn't need someone with them if there were accessible paths.   Better planning means more independence, less cost, and we see that in some of the gentrified areas where walkability is high.

 

 

Community planning - like mixed housing - could go a long way to helping people manage.

 

But that is still not going to mean people will be truly independent until they die.  Even those who stay healthy a long time will not.

 

You might consider that those you see gardening and such are doing those things in part because they are lucky to be healthy, as much as the other way round.

[MotherGoose]

Community planning - like mixed housing - could go a long way to helping people manage.

 

But that is still not going to mean people will be truly independent until they die. Even those who stay healthy a long time will not.

 

You might consider that those you see gardening and such are doing those things in part because they are lucky to be healthy, as much as the other way round.

Manyof the people I personally know that are healthy and active elderly people have made good choices about their health all their life and haven't sat around watching tv for decades. They have taken walks, gardened, and not complained and taken the easy way out. That's my personal experience; obviously bad things happen to people which makes them less active. I'm talking about the personal choices you make when you are 40 that allow you to be more active when you are 80.

[Pawz4me]

I have to disagree.  Capable people have a responsibility to not ask for unneeded help, and they have a responsibility to plan the community so that people can actually live help free. It is a burden to be asked to do things for people that are perfectly capable of doing it themselves -- sucks the extra cash right out of families, money that would be better spent on educating youth and developing assists for people who truly need help for their physical limitations.  Same for the unnecessary medical costs induced by not taking the responsiblity of managing one's health.  Of the 80-90 year old  friends, the big reason they are thriving is because they view themselves as responsible for their health -- they didn't hit 55 and sit while eating takeout daily because they were 'tired' of cooking -- they garden, they exercise, they eat well.   One of the discussion topics here in our town is walkability.  Stupid things were done in the past to force people into cars instead of walking -- for example, sidewalk runs from senior apt until 1 block before a grocery store, and the sidewalk owners don't clean the snow off.  Is that really helpful in a population where there are more seniors than caregivers?  All that is needed is 1 more block of sidewalk, and enforcing the snow removal law, and people don't need to a vehicle.  Or we could just declare that zone golf cart only and use the road, just like the group home does with wheelchair residents....they wouldn't need someone with them if there were accessible paths.   Better planning means more independence, less cost, and we see that in some of the gentrified areas where walkability is high.

 

 

 

Manyof the people I personally know that are healthy and active elderly people have made good choices about their health all their life and haven't sat around watching tv for decades. They have taken walks, gardened, and not complained and taken the easy way out. That's my personal experience; obviously bad things happen to people which makes them less active. I'm talking about the personal choices you make when you are 40 that allow you to be more active when you are 80.

 

I don't disagree that personal choices regarding lifestyle can sometimes make a difference in ones long term health. I'm certainly a proponent of eating well, exercising, not smoking, etc. People who know me IRL would tell you I'm one of the most health conscious people they know. But I don't delude myself into thinking any of those are magic bullets for ensuring long term health. I think of them as ways to maximize my quality of life today. Right now.

 

To go down the road of ascribing long term good health to good life choices is choosing a dangerously slippery road, and one I will not take. It reeks of prosperity gospel thinking, holier-than-thou thinking and wishful thinking (if I do these things then I won't be one of the awful, needy elderly).

 

It is on the whole--when expressed w/o a LOT of quaifiers--a vile, reprehensible thought pattern.

[Bluegoat]

Manyof the people I personally know that are healthy and active elderly people have made good choices about their health all their life and haven't sat around watching tv for decades. They have taken walks, gardened, and not complained and taken the easy way out. That's my personal experience; obviously bad things happen to people which makes them less active. I'm talking about the personal choices you make when you are 40 that allow you to be more active when you are 80.

 

And yet they are still very likely to have a period of five years or so before death where they will no longer be able to be really independent.

[Guest]

Community planning - like mixed housing - could go a long way to helping people manage.

 

But that is still not going to mean people will be truly independent until they die.  Even those who stay healthy a long time will not.

 

You might consider that those you see gardening and such are doing those things in part because they are lucky to be healthy, as much as the other way round.

 

Agree with Mother Goose.  Its not all luck, its taking responsibility and making choices that promote good health.  Sugar based diet, fast food diet, or nutritious?  Exercise or none?  Healthy weight? Indoors or go out and get some sun?   People that live a long time are genetically lucky in that they haven't had cancer etc right off the bat, but they avoid many other diseases because of their lifestyle chocies.

 

Truly independent until death isn't the goal.  Having capable people take care of themselves and not choose the path to early immobility has to be the choice, because there are more needing care than caregivers. Simple things like making the phone easy for arthritic hands via voice command...that gives people social...but that takes resources to develop and if we are using those resources taking care of self-inflicted diabetes, well, we've lost an opportunity.  

 

Five years before death?  Sounds like the dementia numbers.  But dementia doesn't affect everyone.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Heigh Ho

[Guest]

I don't disagree that personal choices regarding lifestyle can sometimes make a difference in ones long term health. I'm certainly a proponent of eating well, exercising, not smoking, etc. People who know me IRL would tell you I'm one of the most health conscious people they know. But I don't delude myself into thinking any of those are magic bullets for ensuring long term health. I think of them as ways to maximize my quality of life today. Right now.

 

To go down the road of ascribing long term good health to good life choices is choosing a dangerously slippery road, and one I will not take. It reeks of prosperity gospel thinking, holier-than-thou thinking and wishful thinking (if I do these things then I won't be one of the awful, needy elderly).

 

It is on the whole--when expressed w/o a LOT of quaifiers--a vile, reprehensible thought pattern.

 

Nice try, but appeal to emotion is not a rebuttal.  You're doing the ostrich number.  The fact is that individual choices matter. Take a look at the long term Type 2 diabetes trend. 

[Pawz4me]

Nice try, but appeal to emotion is not a rebuttal.  You're doing the ostrich number.  The fact is that individual choices matter. Take a look at the long term Type 2 diabetes trend. 

 

I am the daughter of a diabetic who was always active, thin and ate well (a mostly plant based diet).

 

I speak from experience.

[Guest]

I am the daughter of a diabetic who was always active, thin and ate well (a mostly plant based diet).

 

I speak from experience.

 

I don't doubt you, the stats speak to this fact for Type 2 diabetics.  But that's not the case for most seniors.   Individual choices are significant.

 

Edited October 19, 2017 by Heigh Ho