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What would you say to this socialization comment?


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I was just talking to a friend who has had her children in public school since the beginning. Her oldest (twin's) are in 2nd grade. Anyway, she was saying that she really doesn't like the curriculum the school is using and doesn't like where some of the things in the district are heading. She said that she has really been considering HSing because of these issues BUT she personally doesn't want to HS.

 

One of the comments she made in this convo was that her one twin is really an introvert so school is good for him to draw him out. She said the other twin is an extrovert, so he really needs the other kids to be around. I then said that there are LOTS of ways for HSers to interact with other's and she said she knew, but she liked that part of school (the social aspect that the boy's are getting). Then, the convo was just kinda dropped.

 

What's your opinion on her thinking? I feel that kids DON'T need to be around other kids all/every day to get their needed social interaction. I kind of felt like that's what she was implying??

 

So, anyway, input on this would be great!

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Maybe she's thinking that she personally would have a hard time providing what she thought they needed, so she likes that aspect of school? I struggle with that myself. If it were up to me, we'd never leave the house except to go grocery shopping or see my best friend, but I'd really rather not pass that mindset on to my kids! Providing social outlets to my extroverts has been very difficult for me.

 

You may be right that kids don't have to be in school all day to get social interaction, but maybe she has seen her kids thrive in ways they weren't before, and she wants to maintain that. It's hard to change someone's mind about beliefs they hold strongly, so I'd probably just leave the whole thing alone. If she asked for help or support, I'd be happy to talk to her, but otherwise, I don't think I'd try to change her mind about anything.

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Speaking as an introvert, I hated school and believe I would have learned more had I been homeschooled.

Several of my dc are extroverts.

School would be a big mistake for them because socializing would become a priority.

As you know, there are plenty of ways to get socialization needs met for kids who don't attend traditional schools.

My dc don't have any problem in that area.

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I can see this both ways. I have an extrovert...who would love to play with kids every day. I don't personally see any harm in that. But I'm an introvert (extreme) so we rarely do playdates. I also knew a homeschooled girl who was an extreme extrovert that told her mother (once she was grown) that it actually hurt on days she didn't get to see her friends. She really does need that much human interaction with people.

 

While I don't think school is great at drawing out introverts (at least not with me!) I do think that it can be great for kids who are extroverts. And I do think it can be a valid reason for placing kids in school (as long as they are getting an education, too).

 

This year I had health problems and put my son in school for a time. I knew that he wouldn't be academically challenged...but that he would be busy and would make friends. And that was enough for then.

 

So...I can see the point of your friend. She may just not be able to provide the type of interactions that her kids need. Not everyone can.

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I'm with you about kids not needing to be with other kids daily. Perhaps with this friend, she'll get to the point where her dissatisfaction with the system leads her to want to discuss/research the social aspects of homeschooling and you'll get to the point of being able to share with her more specifically. And if she's at that point, maybe you'll be able to discuss how she can do it even though she thinks she doesn't want to. It would be interesting to find out how she pictures homeschooling. If I felt I had to duplicate a traditional school day/week/year/life, I wouldn't want to HS either. I wonder how many people who want to homeschool but are apprehensive about their abilities would take the plunge once they knew of the educational freedom HSers have.

 

Well, I'm rambling....:tongue_smilie:

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As an introvert with an anxiety disorder, I have to work REALLY hard to make sure my kids do get adequate time with other kids. It's a real difficulty. There are tons of opportunities in our area for homeschoolers, and for afterschool and summer activities, but for me to get the kids to attend them is hard. And I sure don't want to pass on my introversion to my kids!

 

She may feel that's a struggle she's not up to facing. Or she doesn't really see how it can be done. I look at PS family schedules and wonder how they get it all done! :)

 

Right now we're sticking with church stuff, cub scouts, and storytime outings. So far so good. And the occasional party or field trip with our co-op groups.

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While I don't think it is necessary for babies and very young children to have an opportunity to interact with other children on a *daily* basis, I do feel it is absolutely necessary for kids once they are 6 and up.

 

Where I differ with most of the public schools is that I do not think children should be segregated by age.

 

I think a lot of homeschoolers make the mistake of doing something like taking their dd to dance class and saying, "OK, I have taken care of her socialization today." A class situation is just one type of social interaction. There is another type of interaction that comes with having dd invite a friend over before or after class that is equally important. There is another type of social interaction that comes from being part of a group.

 

For a lot of people, school is just an easy pool of potential friends. I will never fault anyone who doesn't think they can provide adequate social interaction for not choosing to homeschool.

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I am actually somewhat worried about my oldest daughter. She is currently is PS but we are moving (1000 miles away) and she will be homeschooled next year. She is definitely an extrovert and NEEDS her friends. I, on the other hand, am introvert and it is going to be really hard for me to make sure she gets to meet kids and has the opportunity to make new friends after the move. I'd rather stay home every day that having to talk to new people :001_unsure:. We have homeschooled before but she was younger and wasn't craving friends that much.

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I think educationally there can be an advantage in seeing how others think and working with others on a project, where you have multiple perspectives and many more eyeballs and muscles and hands involved in making things work. If you are homeschooling twins or triplets, or if you have a huge family, this might take care of itself, but I can see that it could be less collaborative lifestyle to have one child doing something by him- or herself.

 

I still shudder whenever I hear the term "group project," but I would like to imagine a world where such things would be fun!

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What would I say to that socialization comment?

 

Nothing.

 

She said she liked that aspect of school. It's her opinion. Yours is different.

 

My sister would never homeschool because she thinks it's good for her son to be around lots of other kids. She knows why I homeschool. I know why she doesn't. Not really any need to comment on it.

 

Tara

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Umm...having twins would mean that her kids would be around another kid their age all day everyday. My 3 are different ages, but they have a playmate anytime they want and they can be alone anytime they want.

 

In my experience the social statements are usually a cover up for the fact that people don't want to hs their kids but don't want to say that out loud. I have had friends who started out using the social thing as an excuse until they saw how much my kids interact with a range of people. Now most of them just admit that they don't want to hs, because it is hard and would cut into their me time. There is nothing wrong with anyone's decision or reason for chosing that, but it would be nice if more people were honest about it. If someone doesn't want to do something they should just say so and move on. I didn't want to cloth diaper my kids, because it was time consuming and icky, and when asked about it that is what I said and people quit trying to 'convert' me.

 

I would not say anything about her comment.

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I hear that reason (socialization) and the "I don't have the patience" more than anything else. I too have moms say they are considering homeschooling, but those two reasons are the most often given for not.

 

Unfortunately, one is my neighbor, and the sort of things he's learning by being socialized make me hesitate letting my boys play with him. She recently told me that her son is part of a cuss-word club. He's 8 years old.

 

The other boy my boys have to play with live down the other end of the street. He uses phrases like "go suck on it" and has destroyed my son's cross-bow with his temper.

 

So, I just don't personally pay much attention to the socialization comments. So far, all of my boys have had no problem talking to or spending time with anyone -- child or adult. My youngest boys have each other when all else fails, and our eldest has a few good friends.

 

I do find that it has been difficult finding boys Nathan's age who enjoy talking about history and science.

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While I don't think it is necessary for babies and very young children to have an opportunity to interact with other children on a *daily* basis, I do feel it is absolutely necessary for kids once they are 6 and up.

 

 

Well, you are of course entitled to your opinion, but I don't think anyone needs daily social interaction. Have you ever raised children to adulthood who didn't have daily social interaction and seen the results? Do you have more than one child? Are there scientific findings to back up your statement?

 

What exactly are the detriments you speak of?

 

My eldest did not have *daily* interaction with other children aside from much younger siblings, yet he is in college, doing well, a part of teams and groups (some of which he sought out), teaches at our church, is involved in martial arts, etc.

 

I think it's one thing to share your opinion but another to claim something is "essential" unless you have something to back up such a statement.

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I'm with the poster who said that they would say nothing. It doesn't sound like she was really asking for an opinion. It sounds more like she's made up her mind.

 

I have kids on all ends of the socialization spectrum. One is so social that she would never get her school work done and we have to threaten her outings just to keep her off the phone, computer, etc...

 

On the other end is my introverted daughter and we make sure she attends every opportunity we can get her to in order to make new friends and hang out with her old friends.

 

We do have an aspie and plan on bringing him home next year and will have planned socialized outings because of his disability. However, it will be with children of all ages.

 

Again, homeschoolers with more than one have the opportunity of allowing their children to become friends with each other. There are many opportunities to get out and do things with others and the positive being that they don't have to be the same age, not in a forced setting and we know the people and usually the parents that they are socializing with.

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While I don't think it is necessary for babies and very young children to have an opportunity to interact with other children on a *daily* basis, I do feel it is absolutely necessary for kids once they are 6 and up.

 

Where I differ with most of the public schools is that I do not think children should be segregated by age.

 

I think a lot of homeschoolers make the mistake of doing something like taking their dd to dance class and saying, "OK, I have taken care of her socialization today." A class situation is just one type of social interaction. There is another type of interaction that comes with having dd invite a friend over before or after class that is equally important. There is another type of social interaction that comes from being part of a group.

 

For a lot of people, school is just an easy pool of potential friends. I will never fault anyone who doesn't think they can provide adequate social interaction for not choosing to homeschool.

 

There is much wisdom in this post. Kids enjoy being around kids. They learn valuable social skills through interactions with their friends....skills that are not learned when at a 1-hr class or twice-weekly soccer practice. I've known quite a few socially awkward homeschooled children...no doubt they would have benefited from having a group of friends rather than one or two structured activities.

 

Ria

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I think that people rationalize the decisions they want to make. She doesn't want to home school. If she didn't articulate those reasons she probably would have identified others.

 

That was my first thought as well. This mom isn't pining away, longing to put her whole heart into homeschooling, yet holding back because she feels like her kids really need that socialization. She is intrigued with the idea, but doesn't really want to do it, so she throws out an excuse that sounds good.

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I've known quite a few socially awkward homeschooled children...no doubt they would have benefited from having a group of friends rather than one or two structured activities.

 

 

I know several socially awkward schooled kids. Having a group of friends and structured activities hasn't changed the fact that they are socially awkward. Some people just are.

 

Tara

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Well, you are of course entitled to your opinion, but I don't think anyone needs daily social interaction. Have you ever raised children to adulthood who didn't have daily social interaction and seen the results? Do you have more than one child? Are there scientific findings to back up your statement?

 

What exactly are the detriments you speak of?

 

My eldest did not have *daily* interaction with other children aside from much younger siblings, yet he is in college, doing well, a part of teams and groups (some of which he sought out), teaches at our church, is involved in martial arts, etc.

 

I think it's one thing to share your opinion but another to claim something is "essential" unless you have something to back up such a statement.

 

You are also entitled to any opinion you wish, but please don't assume I just pull opinions out of my arse. And yes, I have seen isolated children (plural) grow up and reach adulthood and the results aren't good. However, I base my opinions not on anecdote but on advice from my child's doctor and other professionals I trust.

 

The emphasis on the word *daily* there was because while I don't believe very young children need as much interaction as older kids do, they still need it from time to time. I don't believe if a child doesn't interact with other kids every single day of his life it is going to cause problems. I do think that once a child reaches an age where he begins to build an identity of his own, that the child's general day to day life should include interaction with other kids. My mom grew up in a family of 8, and I think siblings can sometimes be even better than outside kids in terms of social development. But, as I'm sure you know as a mother of more than one child, they also need their own friends outside the family.

 

I'm glad your son is doing so well in college. That's great. I'm sure if he had come to you at some point or you had seen signs that he wasn't meeting social milestones, you would have done something. But the fact is there are homeschooling parents who are in that situation and sit by and do nothing because the excuses are out there ripe for the picking. I actually heard a little girl practically cry to her mom once that she had no kids to play with and the mom replied, "That's silly, I take you to softball (or whatever it was) twice a week." *THIS* is the attitude I think is harmful. The interaction the child needs is not happening and the parent refuses to see it even when the child verbalizes the problem.

 

More later, soccer time. :D

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I think bottom line is that every child is different and it's hard to make generalizations across the board. How's that for wimping out? :)

 

I have good friends who have homeschooled for awhile (7 years?) and I know they are about to put their middle son into a private school for this reason. He's a huge extrovert in a family of introverts and they have tried many ways to meet that need but have come to the point where they think he will thrive better in school. I'm pretty sure they are still going to be homeschooling their other three children for now.

 

My SIL didn't homeschool, but I admired her approach to her kids' education. Each child ended up at a different high school based on what worked best for their personality. They've approached college choices very similarly.

 

For us, we're beginning the homschool journey but what we've said is that we'll take it year by year. If there comes a time when we don't think we're meeting the needs of a particular child then we'd be open to putting them in another setting. Right now, I'm hoping that doesn't happen :) but I realize it could. I also would be open to doing different things with each child depending on what seems to work best for them.

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Well, people have different ideas about what "socialization" means -- I was told by a well-intentioned person that my older child should go on play dates so that he would "learn to share." I felt it was obvious that a younger sibling was much more of a trial in this area than any kid the same age ever could be. I imagined the point of playing was more fun and less arguing over the crayons.

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If she seems like she truly wants to homeschool, you might consider introducing her to friends of yours that homeschool, esp if they have kids the same age as her kids. You may let her know about a nearby co-op. I'd keep any conversations on the subject extremely brief until you know what she's thinking though.

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Maybe she's thinking that she personally would have a hard time providing what she thought they needed, so she likes that aspect of school? I struggle with that myself. If it were up to me, we'd never leave the house except to go grocery shopping or see my best friend, but I'd really rather not pass that mindset on to my kids! Providing social outlets to my extroverts has been very difficult for me.

.......

 

Ditto for me

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Why do people treat introversion like it is some sort of disease? Geesh. I don't feel ill. Ya know. LOL

 

 

In our family, it's more likely extroversion that's treated as a disease :D

 

But seriously, it depends on how "severe" the introversion is. If the individual just likes a lot of alone time, but can easily interact with others on both "business" and social occasions and have a few close friends, I don't see it as a problem.

 

But in some cases it can interfer with being able to interact with people easily when circumstances call for it. That's when it's a problem. The severe introvert may have excellent manners, but they may be so stiff, it's off putting. They may cling to one person like he's a life line. They may struggle to hold a conversation they want to participate in. Or they may not have enough experience to "read" people in social occasions. I think this is what parents fear when they worry about dragging their introvert children out of themselves. And, yes, I do know an individual like this. And this individual maintains he's far more social than many of the individuals he's worked with.

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You are also entitled to any opinion you wish, but please don't assume I just pull opinions out of my arse. And yes, I have seen isolated children (plural) grow up and reach adulthood and the results aren't good. However, I base my opinions not on anecdote but on advice from my child's doctor and other professionals I trust.

 

 

Either I'm a lot younger than you or you've been around a lot of homeschooled kids growing up, because the oldest homeschooled person I know is our eldest son, and he's only 19. :)

 

Homeschooling is a rather new thing, so I just cannot believe doctors have very much info about the effects of it on children. I hear people tossing around statements about socialization and such and how homeschool children don't get it, but when I ask these people to tell me about specific people they know, they cannot name a soul. Until these "experts" can show me one person in his 20's who cannot have proper relationships with people and show me how homeschooling is to blame, it's all a bunch of blabbing in my opinion.

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Either I'm a lot younger than you or you've been around a lot of homeschooled kids growing up, because the oldest homeschooled person I know is our eldest son, and he's only 19. :)

 

Homeschooling is a rather new thing, so I just cannot believe doctors have very much info about the effects of it on children. I hear people tossing around statements about socialization and such and how homeschool children don't get it, but when I ask these people to tell me about specific people they know, they cannot name a soul. Until these "experts" can show me one person in his 20's who cannot have proper relationships with people and show me how homeschooling is to blame, it's all a bunch of blabbing in my opinion.

 

First of all, let's take homeschooling out of the equation here and focus on the real issues of social development and life enrichment. We can babble on in a defensive manner about homeschooling all day, but the fact is that homeschooling doesn't *have* to prevent children from being happy kids and reaching social milestones. In the same turn, merely sending a child off to a B&M school does not mean the child is going to get enough of the different kinds of social interaction he needs.

 

I'm sure you are aware that human social interaction and development have been subjects of serious study for quite some time. Now scientists are learning about how genes play a role in human behavior. George Mead talked about developing a sense of self through social interaction in the 1930's. It's been well known for a long time that there are many different areas of social and personal development. It's not just a matter of being able to function in a culture or being able to maintain a personal relationship.

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As a child I was an introvert but now I an extrovert. Go figure! Anyway, despite my shyness, in grade school I was more interested in everyting that WASN'T academic. That was true through most of my education. By college, I was definitely more extroverted and it was still difficult for me to concentrate on my studies!

 

Anyway, I think the right thing may be to ask your friend if she would be receptive to what you can tell her from your experience. She'll let you know whether or not she wants help. Or she may not.

 

But Bless YOU for being concerned for her!

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I know several socially awkward schooled kids. Having a group of friends and structured activities hasn't changed the fact that they are socially awkward. Some people just are.

 

Tara

 

My feelings exactly! Social awkwardness is very seldom caused by a lack of social opportunities, imo. Why do people always think that socially awkward home schooled kids (SAHSKs?) would be cured by a dose of school, when every school and grade has its socially awkward group?

 

An extreme limiting of social opportunities could, I imagine, have a negative effect on social skills. But the goofy, awkward kid at homeschool group would most likely also be the goofy, awkward kid at school, ime.

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Our family is trying to learn to say "No!" to more socialization opportunities. The great part is we choose with whom we socialize for the most part.

We do hear this all the time, and most of the time, I laugh it off! If they only knew....(And if they were neighbors, they would. There is a constant stream of people coming and going from this house!)

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Well see to me that is some sort of anxiety disorder if it gets to that point. I feel very in control of my introversion. I choose my level of interaction because it is what I enjoy. I can (fake) being the life of the party if I want to (or have to), I just don't generally want to.

 

So maybe people are confusing introversion with anxiety disorders?

 

And yeah, in my family extroversion is seen as a bit odd.

 

 

Yes, I agree that it can be an anxiety disorder. But social anxiety can exist without being a full fledged disorder because of lack of training and/or experience. That type of anxiety can be just as inhibiting. And that type of problem is what most parents are hoping to avoid by pushing "socializing".

 

Some observant types can learn this way. Others need to be taught how to look someone in the eye, how not to mumble (vs those with true speech problems), how to act in social situations. But even after being taught these skills, a child needs to practice them. And that is what "socializing" gives them. Practice.

 

I have no doubt that many children are just pushed out the "door" with the adults assuming that they'll develop social skills mostly through observation and experience. The luckier ones receive the training, coaching and encouragement before and during their "socialization times". And they'll be given the down time a true introvert needs. If they truly are introverts. My former introvert is truly an extrovert. Thanks to the pre-school teachers and the therapists who helped give him the skills he needed. :001_huh:

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My feelings exactly! Social awkwardness is very seldom caused by a lack of social opportunities, imo. Why do people always think that socially awkward home schooled kids (SAHSKs?) would be cured by a dose of school, when every school and grade has its socially awkward group?

 

Because many parents, no matter what their school choice, have studied neither psychology nor social science. They go by common sense which, as my dad used to say, is often just plain common.

 

There are teachers also who have not been trained enough to know what kind of red flags to look for. They are quick to point to the introvert as having social difficulties because they are unable to separate concepts like personality traits, developmental, and primary socialization. Often, the kids who need help the most are not identified as such because they don't fit a stereotype.

 

Just as there are certain things that homeschoolers need to be more aware of because of their unique schooling situation, the same is true with B&M school students. Peer dependence is a real issue for a lot of kids who appear to be very outgoing and socially "successful" but in reality have very little sense of self.

Edited by Academy of Jedi Arts
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Sorry, I should have be more clear with my original post. I meant maybe not what you would say **to** my friend, just what *in general* would you say. Does that make sense? Sorry if it's clear as mud, lol.

 

And to the poster who said that there is a difference with interaction (socially) between structured activities and just having friends over or going over to friends' houses, I agree with you.

 

I know several socially awkward schooled kids. Having a group of friends and structured activities hasn't changed the fact that they are socially awkward. Some people just are.

 

Tara

 

Just a quick question regarding the above quote, as I haven't read all of the replies YET, lol. Do you think these children might be socially awkward regardless of being HSed vs. PSed?

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Isn't there a difference between shyness and introversion?

 

Yup. Directly from the Myers-Briggs website:

DonĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t confuse Introversion with shyness or reclusiveness. They are not related. http://www.myersbriggs.org/my-mbti-personality-type/mbti-basics/extraversion-or-introversion.asp

 

And a little article from Cal-Tech that I just found on the fly and skimmed but thought it was pretty good:

Chronic shyness can clearly be distinguished from introversion. Introverts are people who prefer solitary to social activities but do not fear social encounters as do the shy. Shy individuals have a wish for more contact with others and are not content with the degree of isolation that pervades their lives. http://www.counseling.caltech.edu/articles/shyness.html
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Just as there are certain things that homeschoolers need to be more aware of because of their unique schooling situation, the same is true with B&M school students. Peer dependence is a real issue for a lot of kids who appear to be very outgoing and socially "successful" but in reality have very little sense of self.

 

B&M school students? Thought I was up on my acronyms but apparently not....

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We actually had the opposite problem with our oldest. An extrovert, he is. We often joke that if we dropped him on the dark side of the moon, he'd find someone to play with in a matter of minutes.

 

It was if he didn't 'exist' without others around. He went through eighth grade in public school and had numerous experiences with other people. He is slow to pick up on social cues, being male and ADD. What being around others did for him was help him create a thick defensive shell. He became a hard uncaring kid to protect himself from being hurt all the time. I wish he'd had more time at home with limited social interaction to develop before having to deal with all 'those' people. I dunno, maybe the results would have been the same.

 

One of our goals in homeschooling him was to get him to slow down and be content with himself. You know how some people can't be alone in the house without a radio or TV blaring? Silence makes them jumpy. That's what social interaction is like for him....almost like a junky needing a fix. For him, going to college was like a relapse. ;)

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And there are people who are reserved around new people or those they don't know, and wildly talkative around those they do!

 

 

I am like that. I'm also better at talking to new acquaintance when it's in one-on-one setting. Put me in a group of new acquaintance, and I shut my lips tight ...:001_smile:

 

I wasn't homeschooled and grew up in Indonesia where socialization is a biggie. My mom tried to make me more outgoing liike her, but never succeeded.

 

ANyway,a cousin of mine was also an introvert. When we visited her family (i.e. when we're kids), she would cover her face for the entire visit, and would sit leaning to her mom. She also refused to talk to her other cousins whom she didn't know well. She became 'more' normal when she was 13.

 

My son is not like me at all ... he's more like his grandma, v. extrovert. My daughter is more introvert unless it's with people/kids she meets frequently. When she's in a new social setting, I always set her up with her new friend (i.e. help her to talk to her new friends). Otherwise, she would just sit at the corner sulking. Exactly like me when I was young. My mom, being an extrovert, didn't understand me. So she just left me playing, while in truth I was just sulking and gave everyone nasty looks (and nasty answers) all the time.

 

AS an adult, I'm okay overall with socialization... but my nature remains. I'm also v. picky with friends. I will never ever be a social butterfly who can socialize with people across the board.

Edited by mom2moon2
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