What do you teach re. Joan of Arc?

[Jean in Newcastle]

And what do you personally believe about her? I hope this isn't a hot button topic. I really want to know what different people teach/believe about this because I'm not quite sure exactly what I believe and we're studying this in history right now. My doctrinal understanding of the Bible has a problem with her hearing voices and having visions. And I guess I should add that my 20th century view of mental illness is a bit bothered too.

Edited February 19, 2009 by Jean in Newcastle

[Laura Corin]

As with other figures whose world view is very different from my own, I would tend to say, "She believed that she was hearing messages from God," and leave it at that, unless the children asked more. If they did, I would give them a chance to come up with alternative explanations.

 

Laura

[klmama]

If I remember correctly, we discussed what happened and how God very well could have spoken to her. I believe the Bible, and I don't have a problem with her hearing God's voice. Just because people don't talk about it much now (for fear of being called crazy) doesn't mean God doesn't still give guidance through voices heard by only one person. What do you see in the Bible to indicate He doesn't?

[Dooley]

Interesting question. When I read about Joan years ago, I wondered the same things. If I recall, she did believe in Christ and thought the voices were from Him. I personally have known people who have "heard" from the Lord and I know He can speak to people in many and diverse manners. Who is to say she wasn't hearing Him, I guess. She gave Him the glory, I think. So...when we go through this time period next year, and we read her story (personally I liked Mark Twains book), I think I will say just that.

 

You know, as far as the mental health issue, I personally weigh that kind of stuff out like this: Does it add or detract from who God is or who He has revealed Himself to be? If it detracts (like say, if someone says they see angels and go on to get focused on angels and all they do and are about INSTEAD of God, the one who created them) - I would tend to question this persons POV. I would compare what they say to what they are doing.

 

I believe God is at the helm, and He places people on the throne and removes people from the throne - He uses countries to punish other countries and so forth. So, I guess, He could just as well accomplish His will through a young girl like Joan.

 

I hope this makes some kind of sense. Maybe its a simplistic view. I am sure if it is, others will let me know. :001_smile:

 

Anyway, it will be an interesting discussion.

[KidsHappen]

Well, I am not Christian but I don't understand why God could have talked to the prophets of old and not to Joan of Arc. If you believe one, why would you not believe the other? Not Catholic either (obviously) but hasn't he supposedly talked to the current Pope since the beginning of the Catholic church?

[Jean in Newcastle]

If I remember correctly, we discussed what happened and how God very well could have spoken to her. I believe the Bible, and I don't have a problem with her hearing God's voice. Just because people don't talk about it much now (for fear of being called crazy) doesn't mean God doesn't still give guidance through voices heard by only one person. What do you see in the Bible to indicate He doesn't?

 

Well, I don't have anything definite - that's why I'm a bit up in the air about all this! But I guess I was always told that God spoke to the prophets in the Old Testament because He was still forming the written Word - and that's part of the way He did it. But now that we have the written Scriptures, we don't need to hear an audible voice anymore.

 

I guess I'm also a bit uncomfortable with her because while it seems like she was one of the "good guys" of history, she also seemed a bit unstable. But then I know that I'm strongly influenced by the fact that I had a room-mate who saw and spoke to 'angels' right before/during the time that she had a psychotic break.

 

We kind of brushed over the Joan of Arc story the first time we did our history cycle. But this time ds11 is older and we're studying her story more in depth.

[Peela]

Not Christian here but I have no problem with her hearing voices. I let my kids work it out for themselves.

I love the story of Joan of Arc and I feel her hearing voices is an important, in fact, essential, part of the story.

My dd14 loves Joan of Arc. There is a book called The Dove and the Sword, a children's ficitonalised account about Joan of Arc, that first whet her interest years ago. Then we watched a telly drama of her. She is an amazing character.

History is history. If we edit and change it to suit our beliefs, we are not teaching history, we are teaching something else. Not sure what that is though. The story of Joan of Arc involves her hearing voices. She is one of hundreds of people who have heard voices that we know about. If we disagree with that...we are imposing our limited knowledge onto the vast possibilities of life. Mark Twain, a rather non religious person for his times I think, wrote an amazing book on Joan of Arc- he said it was his most important work, although it isnt as well known as some of his others- and it definitely involves her hearing voices. There are apparently records of Joan's life still in existence in France, and that is where the information comes from.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Oh, I wasn't going to change the story! I agree with you that history is history and that Joan of Arc and voices go together! I guess I was wondering what I thought about it and what I would say when/if my kids asked me about that part of it.

[mcconnellboys]

Well, she may well have been mentally ill, but she could also have heard voices from God simultaneously. I believe God has a unique ability to use humans for a higher purpose and I don't believe that he only uses those who *we* might consider physically, mentally, or spiritually "fit". He uses who He will.....

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

I think if psychotropic drugs were invented prior to Joan of Arc's time, she would not have heard voices.

 

Take this any way you wish to take it. It could mean that she was mentally ill, or it could mean that some of today's mentally ill would be considered prophets if not for the drugs.

[Soph the vet]

I guess the first time around when we studied Joan of Arc my kids were somewhat young to really question the whole "voices" part of it. We'll be revisiting Joan in two years and I'll probably teach them that nothing is impossible with God although it seems to be pretty clear in His Word that He did speak through the prophets and has now spoken to us in His Son so anytime anyone says they "heard God say yada yada yada" to take it worth a grain of salt and stand back and wait to see what happens and make sure whatever "he said" lines up with His Word. So why not ask your dc if what Joan heard lines up with Scripture? That might reveal whether she was really hearing from God or she was mentally ill.

 

BTW, the 1940's movie of Joan of Arc with Ingrid Bergman was enjoyed by the whole family and I thought it stuck to the historical account of her pretty well.

[Jean in Newcastle]

BTW, the 1940's movie of Joan of Arc with Ingrid Bergman was enjoyed by the whole family and I thought it stuck to the historical account of her pretty well.

 

Oh good! We're planning to watch this tomorrow.

[nmoira]

I think if psychotropic drugs were invented prior to Joan of Arc's time, she would not have heard voices.

 

Take this any way you wish to take it. It could mean that she was mentally ill, or it could mean that some of today's mentally ill would be considered prophets if not for the drugs.

Like this kid?

[Audrey]

I think if psychotropic drugs were invented prior to Joan of Arc's time, she would not have heard voices.

 

 

 

:iagree: And, I generally explain these "people who claim to hear voices" as either untrue (i.e. someone made this up about them), or manipulative (i.e. they lie about hearing voices in order to get something) or as delusional psychotics.

 

FWIW, I have always thought that Joan hearing "voices" was part of the patriarchal plot to discredit her.

Edited February 20, 2009 by Audrey

[Lovedtodeath]

I'll probably teach them that nothing is impossible with God although it seems to be pretty clear in His Word that He did speak through the prophets and has now spoken to us in His Son so anytime anyone says they "heard God say yada yada yada" to take it worth a grain of salt and stand back and wait to see what happens and make sure whatever "he said" lines up with His Word. So why not ask your dc if what Joan heard lines up with Scripture? That might reveal whether she was really hearing from God or she was mentally ill.

 

:iagree:

1 Tim. 4:1; 2 Thess. 2:9; 1 Cor. 13:8-11; 2 Cor. 11:14; John 17:16

 

I believe God is at the helm, and He places people on the throne and removes people from the throne - He uses countries to punish other countries and so forth. So, I guess, He could just as well accomplish His will through a young girl like Joan.

 

I believe that during this (Joan of Arc's) time, God was not using nations to punish other nations and so forth. The Gentile Times are a time when the world is controlled by people who do not serve God.

The expression "Gentile Times," or "appointed times of the nations," comes from Jesus’ great prophecy concerning the destruction of Jerusalem. (Luke 21:5-36, King James Version) Daniel chapter 4 provides a basis for determining the length of the Gentile Times or "the appointed times of the nations," during which those nations would trample on "Jerusalem," or the kingdom of God.—Luke 21:24.

[Peela]

I think if psychotropic drugs were invented prior to Joan of Arc's time, she would not have heard voices.

 

Take this any way you wish to take it. It could mean that she was mentally ill, or it could mean that some of today's mentally ill would be considered prophets if not for the drugs.

 

Psychotropic drugs have been around a lot longer than Joan of Arc- though perhaps not commonly in medieval France :)

 

I guess I just believe it- the story- until I am convinced otherwise. It doesnt disturb me to believe that someone heard voices and acted on them, but then, I have been known to listen to channelers, psychics and the like at times. Sometimes they are spot on, sometimes not. In Joan of Arc's case, it seems there was some force beyond our normal senses that wanted her to act and she listened.

And I do believe many people in psychiatric care have had profound spiritual experiences they then can't integrate. I know of some people who had deep experiences of love or light and spent some time in the wards till they balanced out again. Believe what you like, none of that disturbs me, God is mysterious and far, far beyond what we can see and hear with our senses. I am happy with "I dont know" and "maybe" rather than "no, that couldn't happen because it's not my experience".

My kids, however, are far more cynical than me :)

[abreakfromlife]

I taught the facts of it as reported by history, but and then we talked about did she or didn't she hear voices, and I told themt hat I believe she did; it seems kind of arrogant for me to say 'no, God can't do that' and stick him back in the box. God is God and can act however he wants, and I do believe he does talk to people; even in the Bible it tells us to desire and pray for receiving the gift of prophecy, so who am I to say that Joan didn't have that? And, if she didn't hear voices, how in the world did she know who Charles was when she went to pick him out??? That has always been a real sticking point with me :tongue_smilie:

[LN in WI]

Not Catholic either (obviously) but hasn't he supposedly talked to the current Pope since the beginning of the Catholic church?

 

Just to clarify, this is not something taught by the Catholic church & I've never met a Catholic who believed this.

 

:) Ellen

[Pamela H in Texas]

I've taught nothing about this. If I could see a reason to, I might point out facts such as age, location, what she thought she was hearing, etc. However, my kids would catch on pretty quickly that scripturally speaking that it wasn't what she thought it was (assuming she honestly did think that).

 

I really have no problem saying that people are wrong, mistaken, being misled, etc. I know it's not PC, but....

 

The good thing is that this person has the chance of a resurrection, as do most who've died. Assuming she was honest-hearted, I'm sure she'll appreciate the truth about God, how he speaks to his people, etc. I think lots of sincere people will find out how wrong they were in their first life but be thankful for the chance at life after resurrection.

[Karen sn]

Well didn't she lead the French to win a war?

So - I guess the voices were leading her correctly.

That her own country killed her after they were done using her does not in any way, shape, or form surprise me.

 

I can't say that I know much about her, yet. But I once read that she spoke of seeing angels from a very young age.

 

I see absolutelly no reason to believe in Abraham hearing voices that tell him to sacrifice his kid on an altar of fire and then turn around and say that Joan of Arc was the crazy one, KWIM?

[HRAAB]

That her own country killed her after they were done using her does not in any way, shape, or form surprise me.

 

Wasn't it the English that had her tried and executed?

 

Janet

[mcconnellboys]

Well, ADD's been used as a catch-all for the majority of kids for the past 20 years, so why not this, too?

[EKS]

My doctrinal understanding of the Bible has a problem with her hearing voices and having visions.

 

I am not an expert, but aren't there several very respected figures in the Bible who heard voices and had visions?

[KarenNC]

Just to clarify, this is not something taught by the Catholic church & I've never met a Catholic who believed this.

 

:) Ellen

 

Do you see a difference in this and the appearances of Jesus (including audible speech and physical appearance) that are claimed by many of the people the Roman Catholic Church has canonized as saints because of their experiences? I do realize that not every claimed apparition is considered valid by the Roman Catholic Church. If some of these are recognized as instances of God physically appearing and speaking to an individual outside of the times recorded in Christian Scripture, is there a reason that the Roman Catholic Church would not teach that there is a possibility that such could happen to the Pope?

 

I am not familiar with all the intricacies of Catholic doctrine, either Roman or Orthodox, so it could be that such a teaching exists (that it can't happen to the Pope/Patriarch), but seems a little surprising in context. I know a lot of the apparitions are of Mary rather than Jesus---does that make a difference since Mary is not part of the Godhead? It is my understanding that Mary is always represented as bringing a message from Jesus or God.

Edited February 20, 2009 by KarenNC

[Pamela H in Texas]

I am not an expert, but aren't there several very respected figures in the Bible who heard voices and had visions?

 

The scriptures show that gifts such as these had a purpose at the times they happened and that those gifts were no longer necessary for a couple reasons after a certain point.

[dymphna57]

I actually had cause to ask this question to several Catholic clergymen a few years ago. They have always been excellent resources for me as they hand me the books they are quoting if I need to read more!

According to them, mental illness is something more than hearing voices, a person has trouble with dealing with life and acts abnormally as well. They are dysfunctional and unable to discern what is reality.

I think that you have to consider whether Joan was also crazy and that might be just as much a possibility that she was possessed for which she was tried. They tried to prove that she was immoral but the judgement of history is that she was sane, moral and a victim of politics. I am sure that if there were evidence of insanity outside of hearing voices some evidence of that behavior would have surfaced.

A discussion should at least include the possibility of all of the above;insane, immoral and possibly possesed, sane, political prisoner and victim.

[Nicole M]

 

FWIW, I have always thought that Joan hearing "voices" was part of the patriarchal plot to discredit her.

 

I wondered this, too. Who said she heard voices? Did she herself say that? Do we have written accounts, by her, of that? Or did someone years later say that she heard voices? Was that a literary "device" used to account for her bold actions? Was it a way of describing how very compelled she was, and would it have been understood as such by early readers of accounts of her?

 

I have no idea. I wasn't ever very interested in her, and we haven't encountered her in our studies yet, but these are questions I would ask. I would question the source, myself. And also, I might look with my boys at what how women were depicted in general, and how threatening a female leader would have been, etc.

 

I remember my French teacher posted on the bulletin board a newspaper article about Joan that theorized that she had that triple X chromosomal thing and that this condition would have accounted for ability to act "like a man" and do brave bold things.

 

Maybe she did hear voices. Maybe she didn't. But I can see why, throughout history, there might be a strong desire on the part of many people to cast doubt on her sanity - whether she was psychotic or not.

 

[ETA: I might not have the chomosomal condition correct, the letters; but I do remember thinking, at the time, Wow. They're really grasping at straws here, trying to come up with a reasons he would have had all the common sense of a man.]

Edited February 20, 2009 by Nicole M

[Nicole M]

One more comment. I studied the medieval women visionaries in college, and so am aware of a whole tradition of pious women around that time, so I also would place Joan in that "world" if you know what I mean. I looked her up in Britannica, just to see if my instinct was totally off, and here is what they say:

 

In her mission of expelling the English and their Burgundian allies from the Valois kingdom of France, she felt herself to be guided by the “voices†of St. Michael, St. Catherine, and St. Margaret. She possessed many attributes characteristic of the female visionaries who were a noted feature of her time. These qualities included extreme personal piety, a claim to direct communication with the saints, and a consequent reliance upon individual experience of God's presence beyond the ministrations of the priesthood and the confines of the institutional church. But to these were added remarkable mental and physical courage, as well as a robust common sense. Known as La Pucelle, or the Maid of Orléans, Joan became in the following centuries a focus of unity for the French people, especially at times of crisis.

 

If it makes you feel any better, she was not, according to this source, listening to the voice of God, but to the voices of the saints. If it were me, I would focus on the reliance on the "individual experience of God's presence beyond the ministrations of the priesthood" and, with my own children, discuss the corruption of the church at that time.

[Nicole M]

Wasn't it the English that had her tried and executed?

 

Janet

 

Correct.

[Nestof3]

I really try not to make up opinions about things like this -- things that I did not witness. I just include it with the rest of history, knowing that there is always more than one side and always something we don't know. We just learn from it what we can.

 

I personally enjoy learning about people who shook things up -- Martin Luther, Galileo Galilei, etc.

 

Joan of Arc has been a favorite topic in our home, probably due to the fantastic movies that we watch:

 

Animated Hero Classics

http://www.nestlearning.com/p-42931-20-animated-hero-classics-biography-dvds.aspx

 

Joan of Arc

http://www.amazon.com/Joan-Arc-Leelee-Sobieski/dp/B00005QCVQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1235142011&sr=1-1

 

Joan of Arc

http://www.amazon.com/Joan-Arc-Child-War-Soldier/dp/B000EU1OXI/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1235142040&sr=1-5

[brehon]

There is a composition called Voices of Light which was recorded, um, a decade or so ago. The composer (and I'm at work right now and can't recall his name off hand) used the church bell from Joan's parish church as an integral part of the instrumentation. Some of the text, both Joan's and the court's, comes from the actual trial records. It's an incredible recording - both musically and texturally.

 

The Anonymous Four sang Joan's part -- stunning...absolutely stunning.

 

There's also an old silent film (made late 20's, I think) which is recognized as one of the best films ever made about Joan of Arc. Indeed, it's almost always listed in those Top ___ Films of All Time by film historians. (I really wish I could remember its name. Sigh.)

 

As far as Joan hearing voices, I prefer to think of Shakespeare here -- There are more things under heaven and earth than are dreamt of by men. (I've probably not quoted that correctly.)

[Lovedtodeath]

The scriptures show that gifts such as these had a purpose at the times they happened and that those gifts were no longer necessary for a couple reasons after a certain point.

:iagree:

1 Tim. 4:1; 2 Thess. 2:9; 1 Cor. 13:8-11; 2 Cor. 11:14; John 17:16

 

Well didn't she lead the French to win a war?

So - I guess the voices were leading her correctly.

That doesn't mean the voices were from God. If anyone is sincerely looking for Biblical answers, I did my best to find the scriptures that apply without adding commentary, so that the scriptures can do the speaking.

[Nicole M]

There is a composition called Voices of Light which was recorded, um, a decade or so ago. The composer (and I'm at work right now and can't recall his name off hand) used the church bell from Joan's parish church as an integral part of the instrumentation. Some of the text, both Joan's and the court's, comes from the actual trial records. It's an incredible recording - both musically and texturally.

 

The Anonymous Four sang Joan's part -- stunning...absolutely stunning.

 

There's also an old silent film (made late 20's, I think) which is recognized as one of the best films ever made about Joan of Arc. Indeed, it's almost always listed in those Top ___ Films of All Time by film historians. (I really wish I could remember its name. Sigh.)

 

As far as Joan hearing voices, I prefer to think of Shakespeare here -- There are more things under heaven and earth than are dreamt of by men. (I've probably not quoted that correctly.)

 

Thank you! I love the Anonymous Four!

[Nicole M]

The scriptures show that gifts such as these had a purpose at the times they happened and that those gifts were no longer necessary for a couple reasons after a certain point.

 

 

That doesn't mean the voices were from God. If anyone is sincerely looking for Biblical answers, I did my best to find the scriptures that apply without adding commentary, so that the scriptures can do the speaking.

 

You wouldn't also look at the historical context?

[Pamela H in Texas]

Please be careful when quoting (either when quoting or go back and make sure they are attributed correctly). First, it makes it much more clear to those reading. Second, it is more fair to those being quoted/misquoted.

[Lovedtodeath]

You wouldn't also look at the historical context?

 

I was the one who said the part about scriptures, not Pamela. And I would absolutely look at the historical context! The timing is the very reason that I cited for my belief that the voices were not from the Creator.

 

Maybe a god was speaking to Joan of Arc.

 

There is a story in the Bible about a god who possessed a person and was following Paul around during his ministry. This god was very helpful to the local people. Acts 16:16-24

Edited February 21, 2009 by Lovedtodeath

[unsinkable]

The scriptures show that gifts such as these had a purpose at the times they happened and that those gifts were no longer necessary for a couple reasons after a certain point.

 

 

That doesn't mean the voices were from God. If anyone is sincerely looking for Biblical answers, I did my best to find the scriptures that apply without adding commentary, so that the scriptures can do the speaking.

 

How can Scriptures speak?

[Nicole M]

Please be careful when quoting (either when quoting or go back and make sure they are attributed correctly). First, it makes it much more clear to those reading. Second, it is more fair to those being quoted/misquoted.

 

Whoops! Those quotes always mess me up, especially when there are lots of quotes within quotes. Sorry.

[Lovedtodeath]

Pamela pointed out the misquote and we are still using it!

 

 

It is a metaphor. 1 Thess. 2:13; 1 Cor. 2:12-14

[Lovedtodeath]

2 Corinthians 10:3, 4

 

Another scripture which IMO applies to Joan of Ark.

[unsinkable]

Pamela pointed out the misquote and we are still using it!

 

 

It is a metaphor. 1 Thess. 2:13; 1 Cor. 2:12-14

 

Can you elaborate? Or can you rewrite your original stmt so I understand what you mean without the metaphor?

[Lovedtodeath]

If anyone is sincerely looking for Biblical answers, I did my best to find the scriptures that apply without adding commentary, so that the scriptures can stand alone, speak for themselves, reach the heart, make their point...

 

I am having trouble paring it down without any kind of "flowery speech". Does that help any?

[Nicole M]

If anyone is sincerely looking for Biblical answers, I did my best to find the scriptures that apply without adding commentary, so that the scriptures can stand alone, speak for themselves, reach the heart, make their point...

 

I am having trouble paring it down without any kind of "flowery speech". Does that help any?

 

Oh. Now I understand. With all due respect, for me, I guess that turning to the scriptures is not especially helpful in forming an understanding of what the voices were all about. It makes more sense to me to look at the historical context, as I mentioned in an earlier post.

[SnowWhite]

We believe the Holy Spirit can speak audibly to the believer. We have no problem accepting Joan of Arc's experiences at face value.

[KidsHappen]

Just to clarify, this is not something taught by the Catholic church & I've never met a Catholic who believed this.

 

:) Ellen

 

Would you mind expounding a little on how it is exactly the Pope receives him directions or perhaps point me to a link that would help me understand this? Thanks.

[Lovedtodeath]

Oh. Now I understand. With all due respect, for me, I guess that turning to the scriptures is not especially helpful in forming an understanding of what the voices were all about. It makes more sense to me to look at the historical context, as I mentioned in an earlier post.

 

I see, and was your question to me trying to help me see your point in a way? Sorry if I am dense. I thought about it a little after I posted, but was busy with kiddos. :)

[Lovedtodeath]

Would you mind expounding a little on how it is exactly the Pope receives him directions or perhaps point me to a link that would help me understand this? Thanks.

 

Acts chapter 15 shows examples of how the first century christians received direction. The matter was referred to the apostles and older men at Jeruselum, who served as a central governing body. They considered scriptures on the topic, looked at evidence around them, and prayed for direction. Then without hearing voices they came to a decision and sent out the message to the other Christians.

 

I am not Catholic and don't follow the Pope, but I still thought that Acts chapter 15 could help explain how not every leader of the congregation hears voices.

[Nicole M]

I see, and was your question to me trying to help me see your point in a way? Sorry if I am dense. I thought about it a little after I posted, but was busy with kiddos. :)

 

Well, not really. Maybe! (I was distracted, too.) I didn't realize you were moving in a whole 'nuther direction.

[Nicole M]

We believe the Holy Spirit can speak audibly to the believer. We have no problem accepting Joan of Arc's experiences at face value.

 

Could you remind me? (I can't keep track of everyone here!) Which is your faith tradition?

[Jenny in Florida]

When we covered Joan last time, my kids learned that Joan believed she heard voices and that she had been chosen to do this brave thing. My kids are well aware that people believe lots of things, some of which are either unprovable or untrue.

 

Since Joan's been dead for a very long time, we'll never know what we really going on with her. But it sure makes a great story.