Never mind

[SKL]

You know what?  Forget it.  Bad enough people decide they need to make this about politics, but then they imply that was my intention.  Screw this.

Edited Tuesday at 06:10 PM by SKL

[KSera]

I feel like it's only been an issue as a response to a narrative that childless people don't have any stake in society. I haven't seen any agenda to discourage parenting, only people defending those who don't have kids as being worthy and equal.

[regentrude]

What recent stories? In which media?

It's probably true that more young people choose not to have children because they see what overpopulation is doing to the planet. 

For those people who have no children for a variety of reasons, it is a good thing that the narrative changes from children=default  to seeing not having children as a valid alternative that doesn't mean they're defective or unable to lead fulfilling lives. Or have no stake in society. 

IMO, it would be good if only people who really want kids and are prepared to take care of them would choose to be parents. 

This said, I'm not seeing "recent stories" like you describe.  But maybe I consume different media.

Edited Tuesday at 04:51 PM by regentrude

[prairiewindmomma]

I think the stories about child-free living are coming from a few different places:

1. politics

2. people who think that choosing to be childfree are somehow less than people who are parents (and this is connected to the trad wife crowd mindset, which is indirectly correlated to politics, generally)

3. people who are aware of how much housing and childcare and healthcare cost and how it's not keeping pace with salaries. There is good polling out there suggesting that there is a sizable chunk of people who would like to have children and cannot afford to.  

4. people who are aware of how challenging our world is going to become with re: to food supply, weather driven calamities, etc. and how challenging it is already re: affordability, safe schools, etc.

The world is very, very different than it was 20 years ago.

[BusyMom5]

I have 2 young adult college age kids and they are seeing this push to not have kids due to climate change, wars, population, etc.  My response has been that children are the future and you should have them when you are emotionally and financially and ready.  I'm mid-40s and in the last 6-8 years, there have been several people my age who changed their minds only to figure out it was too late.  Some did pay for IUI and IVF, and they failed.  Since this is family and my kids are aware of some of these situations, I've been clear that 25-35 are the best times for a woman to have children, and after 35 the window starts to close, even with assisting technology.  I think that the ones my age didn't get that memo- they saw the success stories and assumed it would just work out.    

[freesia]

40 minutes ago, SKL said:

I can't help but feel like there is some sort of agenda toward discouraging parenthood.

What thoughts do you all have?

I have noticed that, too, and I have wondered that, too. And for the record I am not bent toward thinking everything is an agenda. However, I don’t get what the agenda would be. 

[Bambam]

I haven't seen those, but my youngest who got married last year has apologized to me for their decision to not have any children. I told her that no apology was necessary, they have to do what is right for them. I also know people change their minds.  It is fine with me if they don't have children though.  That is totally their decision. 

[MEmama]

Why would there be an anti-child agenda? There is, however, an anti CHILDLESS WOMEN agenda being pushed hard right now, which I would think should be a bigger concern (for lots of reasons, not the least that it's verifiably a primary goal of a certain political candidate).

If young people today are choosing not to have kids (which is true all over the western world), it is for a multitude of clear and obvious reasons, not because of a pretend agenda. There's no point to make up reasons, when the true reasons are right in front of our noses.

[SKL]

I've seen this trend long (years) before a certain politician said something recently.

Let's not make this about politics.

ETA I think it's extremely rude to put a laughing face on this post.  I assume you are implying that I meant for this to be political, which I did not.

Edited Tuesday at 06:11 PM by SKL

[Clarita]

Or maybe in the past it was a moral failing to not be a mother or want to be a mother, so most women don't speak up about their desires to not be mothers.

[regentrude]

3 minutes ago, MEmama said:

 There is, however, an anti CHILDLESS WOMEN agenda being pushed hard right now, 

And note it's always the childless women, never the childless men

[SKL]

Never mind.

Edited Tuesday at 06:11 PM by SKL

[regentrude]

Just now, Clarita said:

Or maybe in the past it was a moral failing to not be a mother or want to be a mother, so most women don't speak up about their desires to not be mothers.

This. The whole mother cult made it hard for any woman to admit they have no desire to be a mother.

Edited Tuesday at 06:09 PM by regentrude

[SKL]

Never mind.

Edited Tuesday at 06:11 PM by SKL

[bolt.]

I think there has been worldwide more notice taken of declining birth rates -- which would tend to lead people to want to explore why people who are currently choosing fewer/no children might be making that decision.

There have also been recent high-profile comments harshly criticizing and devaluing women who don't have biological children. Since those initial comments were political and partisan, I think some responses about the nuances and value of that choice are "supportive" and possibly politically motivated or partisan in nature.

Also, there are a lot of "article trends" that I notice not so much because they are increasing, but because my news feed follows my attention. When I find something interesting I see it more often (both because I notice it more, and because I actually get served more articles of that type).

[GoVanGogh]

My spouse and I were married 15 years before we had our one and only kid. I had major pregnancy issues related to my age and couldn’t have more. I am still thankful we didn’t have children when we were younger. 
I think the trend toward delaying marriage and parenthood is part of an evolving society and women having more career options than previous generations, coupled with concern about costs of raising children and climate and paying off college debt. I don’t even see many young people dating, let alone getting married. 
I hate the “childless people have less of a stake in society” discussion. One of my favorite teachers in elementary school wasn’t married and never had children. She very much had a stake in society and was well loved in our community. 

[Catwoman]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

You know what?  Forget it.  Bad enough people decide they need to make this about politics, but then they imply that was my intention.  Screw this.

@SKL   I missed your posts before you deleted them, but I believe you when you say that you didn't intend to start a thread about politics. You are a very straightforward person and if you wanted to intentionally make something political, everyone would have known it, because you would have been specific.

I'm sorry you felt you had to delete your posts. I'm curious about them because it sounds like you might be seeing exactly opposite of the things I have been noticing. I am seeing stories shaming women who don't have biological children. I have never seen any stories discouraging people from having babies. (Ok, there's one exception -- I remember seeing a lot of "Enough, Michelle! JUST STOP!" posts about Michelle Duggar back when she was still at around baby #19 or 20... 😉 )

Edited Tuesday at 06:25 PM by Catwoman

[Heartstrings]

I have seen childless by choice people be really ugly toward children.  Not all of them of course, but a subset.  Calling parents "breeders" and insisting on being allowed to inhabit childless spaces.  Some of them find children very annoying and don't want to hear or see them. 

I've seen discourse around children not belonging in normal places, like the grocery store, that one parent should ALWAYS stay home. There were some moms online complaining about the target cart redesign and getting lots of hate from child free people saying that moms aren't the only people on the planet and shouldn't center themselves all the time.  There are a TON of videos online around people wanting the option for child free flights, child free restaurants, etc.   

There has been some discourse going around the topic of maternity leave and wether or not its "fair" to non parents to not get 6 weeks of leave every couple of years, which is....an interesting take but one that some people hold.  

Do you guys really not see this discourse out there?    Interesting. Maybe its a function of being chronically online.  Its probably a function of different algorythms.  

Edited Tuesday at 06:32 PM by Heartstrings

[Pawz4me]

5 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I have seen childless by choice people be really ugly toward children.  Not all of them of course, but a subset.  Calling parents "breeders" and insisting on being allowed to inhabit childless spaces.  Some of them find children very annoying and don't want to hear or see them. 

I've seen discourse around children not belonging in normal places, like the grocery store, that one parent should ALWAYS stay home. There were some moms online complaining about the target cart redesign and getting lots of hate from child free people saying that moms aren't the only people on the planet and shouldn't center themselves all the time.  There are a TON of videos online around people wanting the option for child free flights, child free restaurants, etc.   

There has been some discourse going around the topic of maternity leave and wether or not its "fair" to non parents to not get 6 weeks of leave every couple of years, which is....an interesting take but one that some people hold.  

Do you guys really not see this discourse out there?    Interesting. Maybe its a function of being chronically online.  

No, I really haven't seen any of that, either online or in real life.

[scholastica]

4 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

No, I really haven't seen any of that, either online or in real life.

My childless by choice sister, after moving into a neighborhood with a lot of young families said, “Ugh, we’re surrounded by breeders.” She’s made other negative comments about kids at various times over the years. It does happen. Some people are so wrapped up in their way of living and seeing the world as correct that they have to insult and belittle other people and their choices. I don’t understand why we can’t just respect each other’s different choices. It’s okay for people to think differently and make different choices. 

[Terabith]

I didn’t see the original post, but I am seeing a narrative around society that is very anti children existing in public.  People don’t want children to be in movie theaters or airplanes or weddings or restaurants or to play outside where they can be seen. Even fast food places are getting rid of play places. Society is in a very weird space where we’re demonizing women who don’t have children and also children themselves, regardless of their behavior.  

[Carol in Cal.]

I'm in my sixties and distinctly recall the ZPG movement.  I have older relatives who were great parents who had only two children because they thought it was unethical to have more than that.  This idea was pushed hard in conservation circles for a very long time.  

Additionally, it has been a truism for quite a long time that the best indicator of future success/security/material comfort for a society is women delaying having children and minimizing how many they have.  This is always focussed on the women, interestingly enough.  I've seen this literally hundreds of times in reading about development, about better lives for women, about fighting poverty, etc.

Now these are being joined and exacerbated by a general pessimism about the future due to global warming--a feeling that it's people who are ruining the planet so minimizing them is helpful, and also that the planet is going downhill so fast that there is no stopping it and so having children is condemning them to misery and hence pretty darned mean.  

There is also a glorification of childless life, and dislike of the presence of children, as noted upthread.  This has become so common that when I congratulated someone recently on her 6th pregnancy, she told me that most people that mention it to her at all are critical of it.  To her face.  The last time I was on a plane and a woman with a baby sat down next to me, I said, "Yay!  A baby!  You're in a baby-friendly row here.  Let me know if you need any help."  And she just about cried with relief because she had been travelling for a while and seeing recoils and hearing nasty comments all day, she said.

The use of the term 'breeders' is exemplary of that POV, and it's become increasingly common.   

And lastly, there is a feeling that since women can have abortions they are entirely responsible if they have children and hence should not receive help or support from anyone and especially from society.  I've even heard this POV extended to fathers, in conversation.

It's pretty concerning to me, really.  I don't think society should necessarily glorify or heavily push having lots of children, but I do think that it's a moral and practical good to help raise them well.

Edited Tuesday at 06:58 PM by Carol in Cal.

[Heartstrings]

5 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I didn’t see the original post, but I am seeing a narrative around society that is very anti children existing in public.  People don’t want children to be in movie theaters or airplanes or weddings or restaurants or to play outside where they can be seen. Even fast food places are getting rid of play places. Society is in a very weird space where we’re demonizing women who don’t have children and also children themselves, regardless of their behavior.  

Yes! I see both things online.  

 

Things *that I see online* are alos VERY against SAHM.  The misogonistic comments I see on womens videos if they don't work, as well as comments on the videos of women who DO work but the commenter just assumes they don't.  It's so ugly and there is no winning. 

Edited Tuesday at 07:01 PM by Heartstrings
clarification

[Bambam]

I had two children who I love dearly. I like kids. 

But, I also don't want to be eating in a restaurant when there is a screaming child who is not corrected/comforted/removed. So, we rarely eat out but are much more likely to get it to go.  I don't consider this anti-child, but a reasonable desire to eat a meal in relative peace. I know kids make noise (mine did!), and I know sometimes they scream in public places (mine did, and they were removed). I'm okay with that, but I don't want to be exposed to 10 minutes of continual screaming with seemingly no attempts to assist or correct the issue.  

[Heartstrings]

3 minutes ago, Bambam said:

I had two children who I love dearly. I like kids. 

But, I also don't want to be eating in a restaurant when there is a screaming child who is not corrected/comforted/removed. So, we rarely eat out but are much more likely to get it to go.  I don't consider this anti-child, but a reasonable desire to eat a meal in relative peace. I know kids make noise (mine did!), and I know sometimes they scream in public places (mine did, and they were removed). I'm okay with that, but I don't want to be exposed to 10 minutes of continual screaming with seemingly no attempts to assist or correct the issue.  

I think were it jumps into being "anti child" and therefore "anti mother", lets be honest, is when you then decide that no child should EVER be allowed into any restaurant that doesn't have a giant mouse walking around.   Wanting society to become 18+ is anti child.  

Edited Tuesday at 07:06 PM by Heartstrings

[BusyMom5]

In considering the algorithms, those of you not seeing this- do you still have younger children? I do, and I see and hear these negative comments both online and a few in person.  My kids seeing this are college kids- prime age to be targeted with this messaging., and watching age appropriate content like college age TicToks.  I actually don't see messaging encouraging having children or about the joys of parenthood in general media- you have to go into parenting places to find that content. My young adults do not see any messages encouraging the fun children can be- most stuff is very self-centered,  partying, vacations, relaxation- DINK type lifestyle. 

[MercyA]

15 minutes ago, Bambam said:

I had two children who I love dearly. I like kids. 

But, I also don't want to be eating in a restaurant when there is a screaming child who is not corrected/comforted/removed. So, we rarely eat out but are much more likely to get it to go.  I don't consider this anti-child, but a reasonable desire to eat a meal in relative peace. I know kids make noise (mine did!), and I know sometimes they scream in public places (mine did, and they were removed). I'm okay with that, but I don't want to be exposed to 10 minutes of continual screaming with seemingly no attempts to assist or correct the issue.  

Right there with you. Eating out for us is a treat. It really detracts from the experience when other people don't remove their screaming children from restaurants.

I love children, but people need to be considerate of others. 

[Heartstrings]

4 minutes ago, MercyA said:

Right there with you. Eating out for us is a treat. It really detracts from the experience when other people don't remove their screaming children from restaurants.

I love children, but people need to be considerate of others. 

Does this happen often?  I'm at restaurants more than I should be and I rarely hear children having fits or crying.  I almost never hear kids fussing or whatever at the grocery store, outside of tiny babies who are too little to misbehave.  

[marbel]

26 minutes ago, Bambam said:

I had two children who I love dearly. I like kids. 

But, I also don't want to be eating in a restaurant when there is a screaming child who is not corrected/comforted/removed. So, we rarely eat out but are much more likely to get it to go.  I don't consider this anti-child, but a reasonable desire to eat a meal in relative peace. I know kids make noise (mine did!), and I know sometimes they scream in public places (mine did, and they were removed). I'm okay with that, but I don't want to be exposed to 10 minutes of continual screaming with seemingly no attempts to assist or correct the issue.  

I see the anti-child, anti-parenthood narrative online and in public. 

But regarding the quoted post: I think it's possible that some of the clamor for child-free spaces comes from parents who do not manage their children in public places. A kid should not be screaming in a restaurant for any length of time. Kids should not be running amok in the grocery (or any other) store. Once in a store I kept running in the same group where two girls - looked to be maybe 8ish and 10ish - kept pushing each other around, moving the card erratically, just not behaving in a good way for the place. The adult was just oblivious. The girls were a danger to themselves and others but nothing was said to them. Of course no random person is going to say anything, so it just went on. Sometimes I see kids bouncing balls up and down the aisles, sometimes hitting people. Or kids opening packs of food, eating some and leaving the wrapper on the shelf. Again, the accompanying adult says nothing.

So I do understand some frustration. 

I've seen comments along the lines of "why would I want to give up my freedom/nice house/nice clothes/money/etc to be in charge of another person?"  I get that not everyone wants kids, and thus not everyone should have them. But it seems to be more and more now. 

Edited Tuesday at 07:30 PM by marbel

[Terabith]

4 minutes ago, MercyA said:

Right there with you. Eating out for us is a treat. It really detracts from the experience when other people don't remove their screaming children from restaurants.

I love children, but people need to be considerate of others. 

I totally agree with you on consideration!  I also think that the conflation of gentle parenting with no boundaries does increase kids “acting up,” and it’s a real issue.  But, people aren’t complaining about children misbehaving or throwing tantrums. They are mad that children EXIST.  They do not even want to see children. I hear the word disgusting even.  
 

Frankly, I am incredibly glad I’m not having children now, because the attitude towards them is kinda scarily hostile, even in places like churches.  When my kids were little, I used to say that the closest I’ll ever be to being a rock star was being part of a young couple with kids in a church.  Now people audibly groan when a family with kids sits down.  

[prairiewindmomma]

Just now, Heartstrings said:

Does this happen often?  I'm at restaurants more than I should be and I rarely hear children having fits or crying.  I almost never hear kids fussing or whatever at the grocery store, outside of tiny babies who are too little to misbehave.  

Yes. There really are some terribly behaved parents who are raising terribly behaved children. I have a number of children myself and therefore a fairly high tolerance for normal kid noises…but there has been a noticeable behavior shift in recent years.

[Terabith]

Just now, prairiewindmomma said:

Yes. There really are some terribly behaved parents who are raising terribly behaved children. I have a number of children myself and therefore a fairly high tolerance for normal kid noises…but there has been a noticeable behavior shift in recent years.

There’s been a shift in behavior of kids at preschool in the last ten years or so, too.  It’s not good.  

[Heartstrings]

3 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

There really are some terribly behaved parents who are raising terribly behaved children

I DO notice terrible behavior from adults frequently, much more often than poorly behaved children.  Rude to the waiter, rude to the hostess, rude to people around them.  

[prairiewindmomma]

3 minutes ago, Terabith said:

There’s been a shift in behavior of kids at preschool in the last ten years or so, too.  It’s not good.  

Yes, that is right around the age where I see the shift. Youngest is around that age—it’s a very different cohort of kids than those I saw around Oldest.

[wisdomandtreasures]

37 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I have seen childless by choice people be really ugly toward children.  Not all of them of course, but a subset.  Calling parents "breeders" and insisting on being allowed to inhabit childless spaces.  Some of them find children very annoying and don't want to hear or see them. 

I've seen discourse around children not belonging in normal places, like the grocery store, that one parent should ALWAYS stay home. There were some moms online complaining about the target cart redesign and getting lots of hate from child free people saying that moms aren't the only people on the planet and shouldn't center themselves all the time.  There are a TON of videos online around people wanting the option for child free flights, child free restaurants, etc.   

There has been some discourse going around the topic of maternity leave and wether or not its "fair" to non parents to not get 6 weeks of leave every couple of years, which is....an interesting take but one that some people hold.  

Do you guys really not see this discourse out there?    Interesting. Maybe its a function of being chronically online.  Its probably a function of different algorythms.  

 

19 minutes ago, scholastica said:

My childless by choice sister, after moving into a neighborhood with a lot of young families said, “Ugh, we’re surrounded by breeders.” She’s made other negative comments about kids at various times over the years. It does happen. Some people are so wrapped up in their way of living and seeing the world as correct that they have to insult and belittle other people and their choices. I don’t understand why we can’t just respect each other’s different choices. It’s okay for people to think differently and make different choices. 

 

9 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I didn’t see the original post, but I am seeing a narrative around society that is very anti children existing in public.  People don’t want children to be in movie theaters or airplanes or weddings or restaurants or to play outside where they can be seen. Even fast food places are getting rid of play places. Society is in a very weird space where we’re demonizing women who don’t have children and also children themselves, regardless of their behavior.  

Yep, I've seen and experienced all that for years. I don't care how many kids anyone else has. It would be nice to have people keep their negativity to themselves. Or better yet, look for something positive to say for once.

[Carol in Cal.]

Weirdly enough, the same people who discourage kids in restaurants, supermarkets, and airplanes want to bring their dogs there.  Far less justifiable, and far more problematic.  It's appalling, really.

[prairiewindmomma]

Just now, Carol in Cal. said:

Weirdly enough, the same people who discourage kids in restaurants, supermarkets, and airplanes want to bring their dogs there.  Far less justifiable, and far more problematic.  It's appalling, really.

I am against pets everywhere too. I think I am well on my way to gathering my rock collection so I can yell, “Get off my lawn!” 😂

[Pawz4me]

56 minutes ago, scholastica said:

My childless by choice sister, after moving into a neighborhood with a lot of young families said, “Ugh, we’re surrounded by breeders.” She’s made other negative comments about kids at various times over the years. It does happen. Some people are so wrapped up in their way of living and seeing the world as correct that they have to insult and belittle other people and their choices. I don’t understand why we can’t just respect each other’s different choices. It’s okay for people to think differently and make different choices. 

I think a lot of it is lack of self confidence. IME people who are confident about their own choices don't usually feel the need to belittle those who choose differently.

[wisdomandtreasures]

Oh good grief, animals in public... so my baby has to be a silent robot who doesn't move, but you can knock me out for 2 days because you thought your cat had to come into the grocery store... 

[BusyMom5]

10 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Yes, that is right around the age where I see the shift. Youngest is around that age—it’s a very different cohort of kids than those I saw around Oldest.

I have kids in grade school all the way to college and there has been a huge change in parenting- it's a lack of parenting!  We see it in our Homeschool co-op, churches, stores, and just ask public school teachers 😉  i have a few friends with kids spanning the ages.  When we hang out at the park we just watch and wonder what has happened.  

 

And the animals in public - I'm actually allergic to your pets fur!!!!  I get itchy and have to take medication!  Not to mention the germs.  Our stores don't do a thing about it either.  I've watched dogs back at each other all through Walmart and no one bats an eyelash.  One of my kids worked there and reports dogs mess in the floor and people leave it.  This happens often.  Growling dogs, yipping, dirty dogs- just gross.

Edited Tuesday at 07:48 PM by BusyMom5

[Pawz4me]

33 minutes ago, BusyMom5 said:

In considering the algorithms, those of you not seeing this- do you still have younger children? I do, and I see and hear these negative comments both online and a few in person.  My kids seeing this are college kids- prime age to be targeted with this messaging., and watching age appropriate content like college age TicToks.  I actually don't see messaging encouraging having children or about the joys of parenthood in general media- you have to go into parenting places to find that content. My young adults do not see any messages encouraging the fun children can be- most stuff is very self-centered,  partying, vacations, relaxation- DINK type lifestyle. 

No, no young kids here. Mine are adults. I don't know what kind of messages they're seeing, but neither seems to have any desire to settle in with a SO, let alone have kids. I will admit that I've yet to have any yearning for grandchildren. I like kids and enjoy being around well behaved ones. I liked having kids. But I hear many women and men my age talking about how they can't wait to be grandparents. I don't have that yearning.

[Carol in Cal.]

14 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I am against pets everywhere too. I think I am well on my way to gathering my rock collection so I can yell, “Get off my lawn!” 😂

I am allergic to dogs, dangerously so, so for me it's really an issue.  But also, it's just disconcerting and unsanitary to have dogs around food, whether it's a supermarket or restaurant.  They are not infinitely trainable, and the kind of people who want to bring them along usually are not the kind of people who are strict trainers anyway.  

[MercyA]

24 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

Does this happen often?  I'm at restaurants more than I should be and I rarely hear children having fits or crying.  I almost never hear kids fussing or whatever at the grocery store, outside of tiny babies who are too little to misbehave.  

Absolutely. In stores and in restaurants. And mom will often just be ignoring child or on her phone or repeating over and over, "Stop that" with no effect.

I hope this isn't inappropriate to say, but the kids in my community who almost never misbehave and are usually cheerful and animated are the children of our immigrants. 

[Heartstrings]

6 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

No, no young kids here. Mine are adults. I don't know what kind of messages they're seeing, but neither seems to have any desire to settle in with a SO, let alone have kids. I will admit that I've yet to have any yearning for grandchildren. I like kids and enjoy being around well behaved ones. I liked having kids. But I hear many women and men my age talking about how they can't wait to be grandparents. I don't have that yearning.

Me either!  I thought it was just because I still have one little kid so I have no desire for a toddler to be running around. I've just gotten to the point of peace with not having anymore of my own, I'd like to enjoy this stage of no babies for longer.  

[Clarita]

I have younger children. I see some online, few occasion in person. 

Honestly I wouldn't really know what to say to encourage someone to have children. I mean they are a lot of work and definitely hamper the DINK lifestyle. It's like homeschooling I kind of don't want to encourage people to this. I would rather them want to do it despite it being hard and mostly not fun.

Love my children and I love spending time with them, but getting them to this point definitely takes work.

[Carol in Cal.]

I will say, although I badly wanted children, I was never encouraged in this by society or literature or popular culture growing up.  In fact, all I ever heard about raising kids was complaints.  

I literally went looking for people who might actually like kids once I was pregnant, because I was in no groups where that was a thing--quite the contrary; and in fact I felt like I had to keep my ecstatic joy at being a mother a secret in almost all of the contexts that I had previously frequented. Luckily my church had an old fashioned women's group that had a bunch of baby loving women in it, so I started to attend.  It felt like the only place I could let my secret show.

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

This. The whole mother cult made it hard for any woman to admit they have no desire to be a mother.

and some shouldn't have been...like mine.

[MercyA]

13 minutes ago, BusyMom5 said:

And the animals in public - I'm actually allergic to your pets fur!!!!  I get itchy and have to take medication!  Not to mention the germs.  Our stores don't do a thing about it either.  I've watched dogs back at each other all through Walmart and no one bats an eyelash.  One of my kids worked there and reports dogs mess in the floor and people leave it.  This happens often.  Growling dogs, yipping, dirty dogs- just gross.

4 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I am allergic to dogs, dangerously so, so for me it's really an issue.  But also, it's just disconcerting and unsanitary to have dogs around food, whether it's a supermarket or restaurant.  They are not infinitely trainable, and the kind of people who want to bring them along usually are not the kind of people who are strict trainers anyway.  

I understand that allergies can be problematic and even dangerous. My husband is *severely* allergic to cats, although if he is not handling them and not in an enclosed space with them, he's fine. 

That said, kids are much, much more germy and much more likely to cause illness than animals. Some kids are unsanitary and some, I hate to say, dirty. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Kids chew on grocery cart handles, they pick their noses and handle things, they sneeze and cough without covering their mouth, they go to the toilet and don't wash their hands. It is objectively gross. I would infinitely rather see a dog in a store than a runny-nosed, coughing little kid. The coughing kid could actually give me something I could then take home to my family and it could affect us for weeks. 

 

[MEmama]

1 hour ago, BusyMom5 said:

 

In considering the algorithms, those of you not seeing this- do you still have younger children?

 

Nope, one young adult. Outside of the current news,  I have never seen a space where kids are anything but a neutral choice. 
 

We were married 8 years before deciding to have a kid; for all the same reasons as exist today I had a lot of trepidation, particularly due to climate change. I still feel guilty sometimes, what a crappy reality our young people are facing as a world. I never wanted kids before we made the decision for one, and I’ve never wanted more. Thankfully no one has ever commented—to my knowledge—one way or the other. 
 

I don’t much want to be around little kids so I go to adult spaces, and carry good earphones with me on the plane, etc. 

 

adding: I don’t expect DS to have kids.  I’m not one who desires to be a grandparent. 
 

adding again: if I were a young person today, there is zero chance I would choose to have kids. It doesn’t surprise me at all that the younger generations in most of the Western world feels this way right now
 

 

Edited Tuesday at 08:29 PM by MEmama

[MEmama]

Nm

Edited Tuesday at 08:28 PM by MEmama
Idk what’s happening