My SIL is accusing me

[Drama Llama]

My SIL (DH's sister) and her husband are separated and in the process of divorcing.  They have a temporary agreement, that has the kids mostly living with BIL, and visiting their mother often, but in reality they have been seeing her a few hours a month.  Right now, she hasn't seen the two younger kids in almost a month, and she hasn't seen the two oldest since Mother's Day.   

The rest of DH's family has tried hard to support BIL and the kids.  BIL and I have worked out carpools on the weekend so that all the kids get to their weekend activities.  I also babysit his kids, and I've been someone he comes to with questions.  He's doing really well, but working full time and parenting 4 kids is hard, so I'm glad I could help.  

SIL has proposed a clause in their custody agreement that says that the kids couldn't meet romantic partners.  BIL was surprised, but happy to agree since visits with SIL and her boyfriend did not go well.  Except now, SIL has started telling people that since BIL are having an affair, he's violating the custody order by letting me babysit.

To be clear, I am NOT having an affair with my BIL. Firstly, I believe my marriage is a sacrament and unless it's annulled I'm not having an affair with anyone, but honestly he's also not my type. SIL knows I am not having an affair, although she claims to have evidence that I am.  She just wants to force me to stay away from her family's gatherings, and to make life difficult for BIL.  

I am not sure how I prove a negative.  Any suggestions?

Thanks for listening to my vent!

Edited July 1 by Drama Llama

[Faith-manor]

Wow! I have no idea, but I have to wonder when it comes to court, if the burden of proof is on her not BIL. I would also think character witness of your FIL and maybe your priest would go a long way since you have been BEYOND long suffering about trying to honor your marriage vows.

Your SIL is a real witch! Many hugs.

[catz]

Wow wow wow.  She is cavorting with a boyfriend and accusing her husband of an affair with you.  And not seeing her own young children.  I hope your BIL is documenting all of this.  I might discuss this with him to confirm.  In fact, I might text the conversation with him so I could save any text threads with him just in case.  Sounds like someone desperately in need of a mental health professional.  

Are you being confronted with this by other family members?  Who is she "telling"?  Is anyone on your side currently trying to change the status quo?  IMO if there is no evidence, there is no evidence and I would quickly correct any discussion I happen to hear and move on.  

Like can this lady not ever leave you to live in peace?  WTH is wrong with her.  

[Drama Llama]

DH's family is supportive of me.  None of them think this is true.  I worry that she's telling DH.  He doesn't need to worry about that. I also think that she's going to try to use it in court.  

The weird thing is that the kids are with me a lot during her parenting time.  So, she's asking that they not see me, but she's also happy to use me as her babysitter so that she doesn't have to see them.  

[bolt.]

There is no necessity to prove a negative.

If she wants to put you in a role like that, in legal terms, it's her that would have to prove it. Since she can't prove it (since it's not true) there's absolutely nothing happening except a person *without any power at all* talking into a void that doesn't care what she says. (ETA Clarification: even the court doesn't care what she says if there is no proof.)

You can totally safely ignore the ramblings of this person about you.

She could just as easily start rumors that you are an undocumented resident, that you are a terrorist, or that you have 50% bovine DNA. None of it matters. People are allowed to talk nonsense. If they want anything binding to happen, they have to prove it.

Edited June 30 by bolt.

[Drama Llama]

12 minutes ago, catz said:

She is cavorting with a boyfriend and accusing her husband of an affair with you. 

They broke up.  Boyfriend decided to get to know the kids, and every visit with the kids was somewhat of a disaster.  I think he saw her interactions with the kids and realized what a trainwreck she is.  But in her mind he left her because her kids misbehaved.  

 

[Katy]

You don’t prove any of it. You tell BIL you’re happy to testify or otherwise cooperate. Family court judges see a lot of narcissists try to get away with a lot of manipulation. How successful they are often depends on lawyers. And otherwise nothing. 

My thought is that it depends on the state, but every judge I’ve been in front of would wait for the lawyers to argue and then overrule her attorney because even if you WERE having an affair, she is the one who introduced you to them as their aunt years ago. And she is the one who is currently relying on you for child care. And that’s assuming she could convince her lawyer to argue that. She probably can’t. People like her love to try & use legal threats that are invalid. 

Honestly as the years go on, she sounds more & more like my MIL. Who after dragging out her custody battle for years ended up abandoning the kids for a new love interest overseas. I don’t think she’s worth thinking much about. 

[Drama Llama]

55 minutes ago, Katy said:

You don’t prove any of it. You tell BIL you’re happy to testify or otherwise cooperate. Family court judges see a lot of narcissists try to get away with a lot of manipulation. How successful they are often depends on lawyers. And otherwise nothing. 

My thought is that it depends on the state, but every judge I’ve been in front of would wait for the lawyers to argue and then overrule her attorney because even if you WERE having an affair, she is the one who introduced you to them as their aunt years ago. And she is the one who is currently relying on you for child care. And that’s assuming she could convince her lawyer to argue that. She probably can’t. People like her love to try & use legal threats that are invalid. 

Honestly as the years go on, she sounds more & more like my MIL. Who after dragging out her custody battle for years ended up abandoning the kids for a new love interest overseas. I don’t think she’s worth thinking much about. 

I do think a judge would see through this, but fighting it could be expensive.  

And I don't appreciate people, particularly my husband, being told that I am having an affair.  Because I am not!

[dirty ethel rackham]

Man, that woman is a piece of work.  I'm so sorry that you are dealing with this!

[KungFuPanda]

1 hour ago, Drama Llama said:

I do think a judge would see through this, but fighting it could be expensive.  

And I don't appreciate people, particularly my husband, being told that I am having an affair.  Because I am not!

I keep a just-in-case log whenever you keep her kids and not worry. It’s not like her personality is going to change and she’ll suddenly want to watch her own kids for any length of time. 

[Harriet Vane]

I'm so sorry she's kicking up more drama. 

 

[Terabith]

I find myself wondering, if you have a record of when you keep her kids during her parenting time, which I think you said you do, I can't imagine that that would be expensive and time consuming to fight, because I'd think a judge would look at that alone and be like WTF?  

[Drama Llama]

29 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

not worry.

Even if it doesn't impact custody, I don't want my husband told I'm being unfaithful.  I also don't want my neighbors, or my religious community, or my kids' friends parents to think that I would do that.  

I think most women wouldn't want that.  

[bolt.]

2 hours ago, Drama Llama said:

I do think a judge would see through this, but fighting it could be expensive.  

I don't think fighting this would be expensive at all.

First of all, it's only a proposed clause in a proposed custody agreement -- right? So it's not even a legal document that he is legally bound to (yet) and he doesn't have to sign it on those terms if she's going to make trouble over that term. He can withdraw his agreement to that clause if it's not yet signed and submitted to the court.

Second (if that custody agreement is finalized and becomes legally binding) she would have to (a) hire a lawyer who would be *willing* to bring and unproven accusation of a violation of a minor term of a mutually-agreed (not court-ordered) custody arrangement before a judge, ( b ) decide what reasonable remedy she thinks would be appropriate for such a minor violation (Given that she does not want more custody time, I don't know what she would request? Money?) (c) wait for a court date, (d) the lawyer would allege the violation, (e) he or a lawyer representing him would deny the allegation, (f) the judge would ask to be shown proof, (g) her non-proof will piss off the judge, and everything will be dismissed.

At most he would have paid his lawyer for one letter (denying the allegation and demanding proof before the court date) and a 3-hour minimum if he thinks he needs his lawyer's company to deny the allegation in the courtroom.

She, on the other hand would be getting fleeced by the kind of lawyer who would accept her case knowing it would fail, and charge her by the hour to try anyways.

[bolt.]

7 minutes ago, Drama Llama said:

Even if it doesn't impact custody, I don't want my husband told I'm being unfaithful.  I also don't want my neighbors, or my religious community, or my kids' friends parents to think that I would do that.  

I think most women wouldn't want that.  

I know nobody wants that.

But this isn't middle school and the principal's office isn't going to stop her from spreading lies and mean rumors about your chastity and fidelity. She is legally entitled to lie about you if she wants to.

(Unless she meets the threshold for libel or slander and you want to hire a lawyer to send her a cease-and-desist letter, and follow up with that kind of a case if she won't.)

The thing about someone spreading public lies about you is... you find out who really knows you, vs who is willing to believe the worst about you. Your husband is probably willing to believe crap about you: that's awful, and painful, and it's normal to feel grief about that. Your neigbours and kids' friends' parent will probably vary, especially if they barely know you -- But your religious community should be able to at least try to resist the temptation to the sin of gossip, and also be willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. If that turns out not to be true, they are either not 'your' faith community, not a Christian 'faith' community, or not a faith 'community'. (Which is also something to be grieved.)

This new thing that you might need to grieve is harsh, and horrible, and it shouldn't be happening to you -- and all of your feelings belong.

It's just also not something you have any control over, whatsoever.

[Drama Llama]

3 minutes ago, bolt. said:

 

But this isn't middle school and the principal's office isn't going to stop her from spreading lies and mean rumors about your chastity and fidelity. She is legally entitled to lie about you if she wants to.

 

I didn't ask for that.  

 

[prairiewindmomma]

19 minutes ago, Drama Llama said:

Even if it doesn't impact custody, I don't want my husband told I'm being unfaithful.  I also don't want my neighbors, or my religious community, or my kids' friends parents to think that I would do that.  

I think most women wouldn't want that.  

Right, but this is her way of lashing out—it’s predictable and expected behavior from her given her long history of bad behavior. No one can control what she says about others.

I’m sorry she hasnt changed her ways and that’s she still acting in a terrible way—her desire to hurt others is challenging to deal with.

[bolt.]

8 minutes ago, Drama Llama said:

I didn't ask for that.  

 

I'm genuinely sorry, and I'll delete it if you like.

I thought we had enough history that you might appreciate a little levity about a tricky situation (which it how I intended it to land). I should have recognized that you are feeling this situation very deeply and I wish I had anticipated that you would be far too raw to receive it in a light hearted way. I should have known your heart is not light right now! It's one of my failings, and I have made that mistake on this forum (and in real life!) more than once.

I can see that it can totally read as a very catty comment. It's my mistake, not yours.

Please let me know if you want it gone.

[SKL]

First of all, since you're doing her a favor by babysitting the kids, maybe you should stop doing that.  Let her have her kids all weekend and see if she likes that better.  If she says anything, a possible answer would be, "you have told disgusting lies about me in an effort to keep me away from your kids.  While you were choosing not to spend your court-ordered time with your kids.  You need to take your lies back."

[Danae]

As my MIL progressed into dementia she started telling people that I was having affairs.  It sucked.  The people whose opinions matter to me knew it was nonsense, but I’m sure some of her friends believed her.  You’ve got it worse since your DH is primed to believe this crap while mine just laughed, but yeah, it hurts. (She set up a lunch date with my parents to talk about how they would all need to support the kids when I moved away with my “new guy.”  And a meeting with our pastor.)

[Drama Llama]

26 minutes ago, SKL said:

First of all, since you're doing her a favor by babysitting the kids, maybe you should stop doing that.  Let her have her kids all weekend and see if she likes that better.  If she says anything, a possible answer would be, "you have told disgusting lies about me in an effort to keep me away from your kids.  While you were choosing not to spend your court-ordered time with your kids.  You need to take your lies back."

That's not what happens.  On the days when she's supposed to have them, if I don't take them and her father doesn't take them, they're with their Dad.  She claims that me having them counts as her custody time, so in that sense it's a favor because she claims it to the court, but I imagine the court will see through that.  

I take the kids as a favor to the kids, and to my FIL, and my BIL.  Not as a favor to her.  

[Drama Llama]

41 minutes ago, bolt. said:

I'm genuinely sorry, and I'll delete it if you like.

I thought we had enough history that you might appreciate a little levity about a tricky situation (which it how I intended it to land). I should have recognized that you are feeling this situation very deeply and I wish I had anticipated that you would be far too raw to receive it in a light hearted way. I should have known your heart is not light right now! It's one of my failings, and I have made that mistake on this forum (and in real life!) more than once.

I can see that it can totally read as a very catty comment. It's my mistake, not yours.

Please let me know if you want it gone.

No, it's fine.  You're right that I'm raw.  I'm scared.  I get that I can't control her, but I'm just scared.

[PeterPan]

4 hours ago, Drama Llama said:

She just wants to force me to stay away from her family's gatherings,

If this part is correct, then it seems like your DH could flip it and tell his sister that she lays off or she doesn't go to them. 

It's the family, not a court judge, that needs to judge it as unacceptable. 

[Drama Llama]

24 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

If this part is correct, then it seems like your DH could flip it and tell his sister that she lays off or she doesn't go to them. 

It's the family, not a court judge, that needs to judge it as unacceptable. 

Well, my concern is that he may believe her.

But he doesn't have control over who goes to family gatherings.

Edited June 30 by Drama Llama

[PeterPan]

40 minutes ago, Drama Llama said:

Well, my concern is that he may believe her.

But he doesn't have control over who goes to family gatherings.

Neither of those make sense. Someone in the family is the leader, the person that holds the power. It could be a set of siblings or a matriarch of the family or whatever, but someone has the power there. And I thought you said he wouldn't believe her. You really think you can keep this quiet? You're saying she's so manipulative that she has you so embarrassed that you don't want to tell your dh???

Seems like you need to go tell your dh right now. That has to be headed off at the pass. There's zero way to keep that quiet and it should come from you first. If you're hiding it from your dh, that's the first thing to solve. All the rest falls into place.

Make him a nice pot of tea. Some pie. Some whipped cream. I have no clue what whipped cream is but make it up. Or just take it in with you. 

Edited June 30 by PeterPan

[Drama Llama]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

Neither of those make no sense. Someone in the family is the leader, the person that holds the power. It could be a set of siblings or a matriarch of the family or whatever, but someone has the power there. And I thought you said he wouldn't believe her. You really think you can keep this quiet? You're saying she's so manipulative that she has you so embarrassed that you don't want to tell your dh???

Seems like you need to go tell your dh right now. That has to be headed off at the pass. There's zero way to keep that quiet and it should come from you first. If you're hiding it from your dh, that's the first thing to solve. All the rest falls into place.

Make him a nice pot of tea. Some pie. Some whipped cream. I have no clue what whipped cream is but make it up. Or just take it in with you. 

No, I said his family doesn't believe it.  I am sure she's told him or will tell him when she gets a chance, and I think it's quite likely he will believe it. 

I can't talk to him directly.  He is not local, and we are separated.

Edited July 1 by Drama Llama

[Drama Llama]

3 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Neither of those make no sense.

Did you mean this as a double negative?  

[PeterPan]

Just now, Drama Llama said:

Did you mean this as a double negative?  

I think it's called my cafe mocha thing from this morning is wearing off.

[Drama Llama]

Just now, PeterPan said:

I think it's called my cafe mocha thing from this morning is wearing off.

But which one did you mean.  That they make sense, or they don't make sense.

[PeterPan]

2 minutes ago, Drama Llama said:

There is a no contact order, and he lives in a different state.  

Your dh?

 

[Drama Llama]

Just now, PeterPan said:

Your dh?

 

Yes.  

[PeterPan]

Just now, Drama Llama said:

Yes.  

That's complicated. 

[PeterPan]

Hard stuff.

Edited July 1 by PeterPan

[Melissa in Australia]

Huge hugs

Thinking of you

Edited July 1 by Melissa in Australia

[Eos]

Hugs to you, another installment of annoying yuck.

15 hours ago, Drama Llama said:

I also think that she's going to try to use it in court. 

Would you consider asking BIL and other "good" family members as a group how to help manage this lie of hers? You need allies and having witnesses to the same conversation creates strength. Just a thought, I don't have personal experience of this idea to offer.

Edited July 1 by Eos

[TravelingChris]

I am sorry. This must be very tough.

[elegantlion]

I'm sorry that you're dealing with these lies. 

I see two things here, the accusation and secondly, how that might affect your personal reputation. 

As for the second, I would implement some caution, at least for a while, into how you and BIL communicate and when he's picking up or dropping off the kids. Give the rumors nothing to stand on. For instance, if he's picking up the kids, you go outside and he doesn't come into the house. If you're texting, keep the exchanges brief and only focused on the kids. Document exchanges and times even. Do not be in a room alone with him. This might be extreme, or you might be doing all these things already. Documentation might show "he picked up the kids at 1:45 and we talked in the yard for 5 minutes then he left." Then you shouldn't have to worry about how things are being perceived because you'll have a record of everything. 

My reaction would be to do these things because H-ll no, is someone going to accuse me of that! I'll document everything just to show them. It would not be done out of fear. 

[Scarlett]

17 minutes ago, elegantlion said:

I'm sorry that you're dealing with these lies. 

I see two things here, the accusation and secondly, how that might affect your personal reputation. 

As for the second, I would implement some caution, at least for a while, into how you and BIL communicate and when he's picking up or dropping off the kids. Give the rumors nothing to stand on. For instance, if he's picking up the kids, you go outside and he doesn't come into the house. If you're texting, keep the exchanges brief and only focused on the kids. Document exchanges and times even. Do not be in a room alone with him. This might be extreme, or you might be doing all these things already. Documentation might show "he picked up the kids at 1:45 and we talked in the yard for 5 minutes then he left." Then you shouldn't have to worry about how things are being perceived because you'll have a record of everything. 

My reaction would be to do these things because H-ll no, is someone going to accuse me of that! I'll document everything just to show them. It would not be done out of fear. 

I agree.  And honestly these are good practices anyway especially for two separated people who are well known to each other.  
 

@Drama Llama I am sorry you have to worry so much about this woman.  She never stops does she?  
 

 

[Scarlett]

.

Edited July 1 by Scarlett

[Drama Llama]

6 hours ago, elegantlion said:

I'm sorry that you're dealing with these lies. 

I see two things here, the accusation and secondly, how that might affect your personal reputation. 

As for the second, I would implement some caution, at least for a while, into how you and BIL communicate and when he's picking up or dropping off the kids. Give the rumors nothing to stand on. For instance, if he's picking up the kids, you go outside and he doesn't come into the house. If you're texting, keep the exchanges brief and only focused on the kids. Document exchanges and times even. Do not be in a room alone with him. This might be extreme, or you might be doing all these things already. Documentation might show "he picked up the kids at 1:45 and we talked in the yard for 5 minutes then he left." Then you shouldn't have to worry about how things are being perceived because you'll have a record of everything. 

My reaction would be to do these things because H-ll no, is someone going to accuse me of that! I'll document everything just to show them. It would not be done out of fear. 

The problem is that BIL is my friend.  I'm not attracted to him, or romantically involved with him, but I definitely consider him my friend, and I'm pretty sure he considers me his friend too.  And both of us need friends.  So, I'm hesitant to give up things like calling each other for advice, or grabbing pizza with the kids after a swim meet, or whatever.  

I feel as though SIL has multiple goals, but one of her goals is probably to stop me from helping him, because she wants it to be more difficult for him. 

[KungFuPanda]

1 minute ago, Drama Llama said:

The problem is that BIL is my friend.  I'm not attracted to him, or romantically involved with him, but I definitely consider him my friend, and I'm pretty sure he considers me his friend too.  And both of us need friends.  So, I'm hesitant to give up things like calling each other for advice, or grabbing pizza with the kids after a swim meet, or whatever.  

I feel as though SIL has multiple goals, but one of her goals is probably to stop me from helping him, because she wants it to be more difficult for him. 

I wouldn’t give it up. You’re the only two who know what it’s like to be married into that chaos.  You can’t control what other people say or believe, even if you follow some weird rules so you might as well live your life. Those kids will all be grown in the blink of an eye. The best you can do is serve them well while they’re growing and give them the stability that they’re not getting from the other parent. Once they are adults you can wash your hands of the problematic spouses. Nobody chooses to HAVE mental illness, but it won’t be your job to manage that forever. The kids are all lucky to have someone who cares more about them than they do their own convenience. 

[SKL]

Will your son be able to drive soon?  Maybe things will be easier when he is able to drive his cousins (and his brother) around.

[Drama Llama]

3 minutes ago, SKL said:

Will your son be able to drive soon?  Maybe things will be easier when he is able to drive his cousins (and his brother) around.

He can drive now, and can drive his brother.  In about a week he'll be able to drive his cousins. 

But, I'm not sure I understand how that connects to this issue at all.

[thatfirstsip]

Women don't need to change their behavior to make sure other people don't use the legal system against them to accuse them of a lack of socially appropriate chastity. What is this, 1954? Gross.

Your SIL sucks, I'm sorry. If it costs you or your BIL money to defend against her crazy, that's really unfortunate, but often the reality of being related to people who suck. I think the likelihood that it actually hurts his custody situation is nil, but going to court about it is painful and stressful.

 

[Rosie_0801]

Don't change your interactions with your BIL.

That would be self abuse and you can't abuse yourself enough to stop someone else doing it if they want to. 

She's a mad bitch and there is no way you can preempt and control whatever crazy she comes up with next.

 

[wintermom]

That's just horrible. I haven't read all the replies, but my initial response would be for dh to go and talk face-to-face with his sister. He can deal with this crazy, and hopefully get her off your back. If that doesn't work, then I'd get a lawyer (speak to one at least) and let the sister know that legal action with be taken if she continues to defame your reputation with malicious lies. 

[Drama Llama]

5 minutes ago, wintermom said:

That's just horrible. I haven't read all the replies, but my initial response would be for dh to go and talk face-to-face with his sister. He can deal with this crazy, and hopefully get her off your back. If that doesn't work, then I'd get a lawyer (speak to one at least) and let the sister know that legal action with be taken if she continues to defame your reputation with malicious lies. 

Unfortunately that’s not an option.

[Heartstrings]

He should ask that the clause stick to not allowing overnight romantic visitors.  That’s fairly standard where I am and would be easier to enforce.  As long you don’t spend the night with him there would be no custody issues.  Not meeting romantic partners is too hard to enforce. He needs to remember that his ex isn’t in control here, it’s a negotiation.  
 

Unfortunately the rest of it is out of your control and it’s probably best to focus on that part.  You can’t stop her from spreading rumors, can’t stop people from believing them.  Gossip is a sin for a reason, it’s destructive.  Reputations are ephemeral.  
 

Your DH would be my biggest concern.  I know he is not local, but could he get to you if he wanted? Is there security preventing that?  I’ve followed along with your separation from him long enough to know it’s complicated and that there are safety concerns.  I’d focus my energy on trying to manage that situation somehow. 

Edited July 1 by Heartstrings

[Drama Llama]

22 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

He should ask that the clause stick to not allowing overnight romantic visitors.  That’s fairly standard where I am and would be easier to enforce.  As long you don’t spend the night with him there would be no custody issues.  Not meeting romantic partners is too hard to enforce. He needs to remember that his ex isn’t in control here, it’s a negotiation.  

Weirdly, he's not the one who asked for it.  Her recent boyfriend had a clause in his agreement about his kids not meeting a partner.  So she never met his kids.  But her kids met him, and that went badly.  So, I think she was looking for an excuse to not have to introduce the kids to future boyfriends. 

22 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

Unfortunately the rest of it is out of your control and it’s probably best to focus on that part.  You can’t stop her from spreading rumors, can’t stop people from believing them.  Gossip is a sin for a reason, it’s destructive.  Reputations are ephemeral.  
 

Your DH would be my biggest concern.  I know he is not local, but could he get to you if he wanted? Is there security preventing that?  I’ve followed along with your separation from him long enough to know it’s complicated and that there are safety concerns.  I’d focus my energy on trying to manage that situation somehow. 

At this moment, we are safe.  The future is fuzzy.  

Hopefully, he doesn't believe her.  

[KungFuPanda]

1 hour ago, Drama Llama said:

Weirdly, he's not the one who asked for it.  Her recent boyfriend had a clause in his agreement about his kids not meeting a partner.  So she never met his kids.  But her kids met him, and that went badly.  So, I think she was looking for an excuse to not have to introduce the kids to future boyfriends. 

At this moment, we are safe.  The future is fuzzy.  

Hopefully, he doesn't believe her.  

I’d bet money he didn’t have that clause at all but just didn’t want that craziness around his kids.