Immigration/Passport/ ???

[Soror]

Question answered - thanks to those who gave information!

Edited February 8 by Soror

[HomeAgain]

The way I see it (and IANAL) ...His children's passports are regular U.S. passports.  They are citizens.  His employment authorization papers...are they like a J1 authorization, a sort of work visa?  His status may depend on whether he stayed in the U.S. after their expiration and continued working when they were expired.  He is not a U.S. citizen.  He is (was) an authorized worker, if I understand you.  If he hadn't applied for a different visa and gone through the channels of trying to remain permanently due to his marriage, the courts aren't going to look kindly on that.

If his children have dual citizenship, it is most likely his request to take them back to his home country will be considered.  If they are solely U.S. citizens, they need both parents approval during a divorce for that to have happen.  The U.S. isn't keen on "giving away" its citizens to other countries, uprooting children from their home country/language, and creating long distance custody agreements unless the parents demonstrate they can uphold the financial considerations of it. 

[maize]

The kids get normal passports. Both parents have to sign the paperwork. I think it unlikely that a US family law court would give him full custody and allow him to move them out of the country if mom is staying here and wants at least partial custody; he may overestimate his chances there based on laws and experience in his home country.

If he isn't a US citizen he can't get a US passport. 

[regentrude]

If he has EA, he has a temporary visa which allows him to work. ( Greencard status wouldn't expire, only the physical card does). He may be required to return to his home country for the visa renewal.

He is not a US citizen and won't have a US passport. The kids have regular US passports. It would be highly unusual if he got awarded full custody.

[Soror]

19 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

The way I see it (and IANAL) ...His children's passports are regular U.S. passports.  They are citizens.  His employment authorization papers...are they like a J1 authorization, a sort of work visa?  His status may depend on whether he stayed in the U.S. after their expiration and continued working when they were expired.  He is not a U.S. citizen.  He is (was) an authorized worker, if I understand you.  If he hadn't applied for a different visa and gone through the channels of trying to remain permanently due to his marriage, the courts aren't going to look kindly on that.

If his children have dual citizenship, it is most likely his request to take them back to his home country will be considered.  If they are solely U.S. citizens, they need both parents approval during a divorce for that to have happen.  The U.S. isn't keen on "giving away" its citizens to other countries, uprooting children from their home country/language, and creating long distance custody agreements unless the parents demonstrate they can uphold the financial considerations of it. 

It is my understanding he just applied for an extension of the work authorization. 

He says his children have citizenship in his home country due to his Mother's citizenship. His mother is from his home country but his father from a different ME country.

16 minutes ago, maize said:

The kids get normal passports. Both parents have to sign the paperwork. I think it unlikely that a US family law court would give him full custody and allow him to move them out of the country if mom is staying here and wants at least partial custody; he may overestimate his chances there based on laws and experience in his home country.

If he isn't a US citizen he can't get a US passport. 

I have no clue on family court here. Mom says she is giving up her rights but who knows what will happen until court is finished. Mom has some issues and is not a good fit but I know in regular cases it usually takes years for them to lose custody even if things are terrible.

[Soror]

Nt

Edited February 8 by Soror

[regentrude]

20 minutes ago, Soror said:

Dad showed me online where it shows his paperwork is pending and it doesn't mention him needing to return home. He filled those papers in August. When would they let him know this? 

I think if he needs only an extension of the EA but not a new visa stamp, he may be able to do so from the US. However,  if he needs a new *visa*, that usually requires the person to do it in their home country. ( this comes up often with colleague and grad students at the university).

How long processing takes is completely unpredictable. 

What kind of visa does he have?

Edited February 6 by regentrude

[SKL]

He shouldn't be able to take his kids out of the US without their mother's written, notarized permission.

But yeah, the kids are US citizens, so US passport, though it may also be possible for him to get them passports in his home country.

Edited February 6 by SKL

[City Mouse]

Sounds like he should probably contact his embassy/consulate to find out what he needs to return to his home country. I assume he already has a passport from his home country that was used when he entered the US. He would also need to contact them to find out how to obtain passports for his children as citizens of that country.

[SKL]

Who told you that the mom says she is giving up custody?  Unless I heard it from her mouth (without any possible coercion), or from her lawyer (who is not also his lawyer), I wouldn't place any weight on that.

[gardenmom5]

He's not a citizen, he can't have a US passport.  If he needs a valid passport, he needs to go to the embassy/consulate for his home country.
A work visa is only permission to legally work.

I don't see him getting full custody allowing him to do what he wants with the children, that would require all rights for their mother being revoked.  He won't be allowed to take them out of the country for so much as a visit without his wife's permission - married or not, especially as he is NOT a US citizen.  Even if he had a US passport (for which he is not eligible) he would not be allowed to take them out of the country. 

Legally - he can't even get US passports for the children without their mother's *written* permission.  (if she submits any documentation of concern he will attempt remove the children from the country without her permission - no passports will be issued. tbh: personally, I think she should, or she may never see them again.)

It's not just family courts that would block that - INS would block it.

Edited February 6 by gardenmom5

[gardenmom5]

27 minutes ago, SKL said:

Who told you that the mom says she is giving up custody?  Unless I heard it from her mouth (without any possible coercion), or from her lawyer (who is not also his lawyer), I wouldn't place any weight on that.

This.
And I would dig to make sure there was no coercion. . . . . I wouldn't trust it.   

[sweet2ndchance]

Even if she wants to give up rights, it's possible that family court wouldn't allow it. I've seen it happen.

It is exceedingly rare that one parent is given full custody with no strings attached. As long as the mother is still on the hook for child support, and some states do not let you, as the parent, decide if you want child support or not, It is considered the children's money and the custodial parent cannot refuse it in some states. But anyways as long as she is on the hook for child support, she has a right to see the children which means he cannot leave the country with them without a whole lot of red tape. And it doesn't matter if she actually pays it or not, it is as long as she is on the hook to pay it that matters.

All this to say, it's not an easy process to do what he wants to do. It could take months or years of court, if it happens at all.

[TechWife]

Frankly, if he is from a patriarchal society, I would take everything he says with a grain of salt. That includes the mother not being "not fit" and "having some issues."

A court will not just allow him to move the kids to another country because he wants to, even if he has full custody and they have dual citizenship. They have a mother who has a right to have input on that decision and there are the best interests of the children to consider, which includes consideration of  the culture in which they would live were they to go overseas.

Him having custody and the mother giving up her parental rights are two different things entirely. The court will not allow either to happen lightly. There is also a difference between "getting a divorce" and actually being divorced. Even if he has full custody, that doesn't mean she won't have a right to visit with her children and to be part of their lives.

It sounds like he needs a family lawyer versed in international custody issues. If you're out of your depth with this, I think you need to tell him that.

I hope she has a good lawyer.

ETA: If you have never left the US with children, you might not be aware of the seriousness with which border patrol takes that process. My teen son was quizzed on the information on his passport, the names of his parents, he was asked to visually identify us as his parents, border patrol made sure the addresses on all three passports match and made sure we had return flights booked. Then, when they returned passports, it they made sure they gave his passport directly to him. Admittedly, they gave everyone's passport back to them, no matter who turned them over, but the agent looked pointedly at my husband when he did it, so he seemed to be sending a message, IMO. FWIW, all three of us are caucasian and there is a family resemblance. 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 6 by TechWife

[Arcadia]

3 hours ago, Soror said:

The children are US citizens and have SS cards and birth certificates will their passports be just like regular passports? 

My friend (non citizen) married and divorced a US citizen in Los Angeles. Her child is born here and has a US passport. Her ex is a dead beat and womanizer and she was allowed to bring her child back home to her country of origin. She paid his debts as part of the divorce. Her ex married his fling. She was in US on spousal visa originally.

[Faith-manor]

To be honest, given he is from a middle eastern country, the likelihood of a US judge awarding him custody to remove the children from the US is quite low. They usually would rather see them in the hands of a maternal relative or foster care even if the mother is unfit.

I would be skeptical of his claim. Unfit is a high bar legally. If he cannot stay in the country, he needs to brace himself for the fact that the children are probably going to remain. They will award the mother child support, but if he goes back to his country of origin, the courts won't be able to collect it.

Many countries see it this way. They hold onto their citizen children until they reach the age of majority.

He should discuss things with his consulate, and get advice from them on where to get representation as he goes through the divorce.

[Pam in CT]

IANAL.

My understanding is that non-US-citizens' "employment authorization" and eligibility for a US passport are pretty much entirely different lanes. His ability to work here in and of itself does not imply he would be eligible for citizenship or to get a US passport.

A number of my students whose paperwork status I've been peripherally involved with who do NOT have US citizenship or green cards or various visas (not passports) that allow emploment, but DO have "employment authorization," are under a status like TPS or one of the various humanitarian parole programs or, rarely, while they're awaiting asylum hearings. In the handful of cases I've tried to help them with navigating the somewhat baffling system, they have to re-apply for employment authorization fairly regularly (like every 2-3 years). Sometimes their old authorization expires before the renewal comes back. I would NOT advise anyone to exit the country in that limbo and take for granted they'll be able to come back in.

He doesn't NEED a US passport to return to his home country so long as he has a valid passport from his home country. If he doesn't have any passport at all, the best option to travel MAY be (dunno circumstances, maybe not) to get a passport from his home country.

As per pp, if the kids were born here they are US citizens and can get US passports, but will need either the physical presence or notarized affidavits from both parents to do so.

And finally, no parent (of whatever employment status) should leave the country with the kids in the midst of a still-legally-pending custody dispute and expect to come back in later to renew employment authorization or go to Disney or whatever. Bridges will be burned.

[gardenmom5]

27 minutes ago, TechWife said:

 

ETA: If you have never left the US with children, you might not be aware of the seriousness with which border patrol takes that process. My teen son was quizzed on the information on his passport, the names of his parents, he was asked to visually identify us as his parents, border patrol made sure the addresses on all three passports match and made sure we had return flights booked. Then, when they returned passports, it they made sure they gave his passport directly to him. Admittedly, they gave everyone's passport back to them, no matter who turned them over, but the agent looked pointedly at my husband when he did it, so he seemed to be sending a message, IMO. FWIW, all three of us are caucasian and there is a family resemblance. 

 

 

 

 

Dh's nephew took his children to Canada for a family reunion (his father's extended family is split between the US and Canada.).  He had a letter from his ex 'authorizing' a maximum one week visit for the reunion. I don't know all the details of the letter.  Border patrol read the letter and said "woah, she's mad".  Without anything from her, he wouldn't have been able to cross the border with them.   

 

There have been so many cases of fathers from patriarchal societies kidnapping their children (taking their children out of the country to live elsewhere without their mother's permission is kidnapping), and their mothers never seeing their children again.    There are thousands of such cases, courts are leery of granting permission to take any minor children out of the US.

even on passport order forms - it requires both parents to be present to get the passport, or a notarized letter if only one parent is present

[Soror]

Nt

Edited February 8 by Soror

[TechWife]

7 minutes ago, Soror said:

Woah it is not just him saying she is unfit. 

DFS has placed them with him for now, not her. My coworker worked directly with Mom late last year. Because the kids aren't with her now I'm not working with her because that is how our program works.

I'm not going into all those details. 

I have traveled with my kids overseas but only with my husband so I don't have that experience. 

We have advised him he needs to wait until after court and see what the judge says. 

The goal of DFS is safety and family reunification. They will try to get her to a place where she is "fit." Since DFS "placed" them with him, it brings up the question of whether or not he has custody or the state has custody. I expect you probably know the answer to that & you don't have to say, but if the state has custody then questions about where they live are moot - he doesn't decide.

ETA: If he ends up with custody post divorce, and DFS has determined they can't live with her, that doesn't mean the judge will let them leave the country. She may one day become a fit parent and file to have the custody arrangement change -  - allow different visitation, shared custody, whatever. She would be able to do that as long as her parental rights aren't terminated.  I think a judge would be reluctant to close that door by allowing the kids to move out of the country.

Unsaid in all of this is whether or not he is actually working or has a dependable source of income. The judge takes that into custody as well.

Edited February 6 by TechWife

[bolt.]

To me, it seems most likely that DFS will retain control of these children. If mom isn't capable right now, and if it comes to pass that dad has to leave the country, that sounds like a foster-care situation to me. I can't see a path where it leads to full custody and freedom for him to expatriate the children.

[Lecka]

His kids sound like they qualify for dual citizenship.  If they were born here they qualify for US citizenship.  That doesn’t mean they don’t also qualify for the mom’s home country.  The mom’s home country might make them renounce their US citizenship when they turn 18, I haven’t heard of that for younger kids.  I believe the US allows dual citizenship with any country.  
 

I know someone who has an EAD and recently got an “EAD extension” that gave him another 2 years.  It’s just a pdf.  He’s legally allowed to work for another 2 years.

 

The EAD stuff seems independent of the visa/immigration stuff.  They seem related for sure, but it seems like EAD extensions are what people do, while they are waiting on their immigration cases.  
 

The truth is this person needs to see an immigration lawyer.  I think all of this is immigration lawyer stuff, because there are so many details that make a difference in how things are handled.  Maybe there would be more lawyer stuff beyond an immigration lawyer.  
 

 

[Bootsie]

2 hours ago, TechWife said:

Frankly, if he is from a patriarchal society, I would take everything he says with a grain of salt. That includes the mother not being "not fit" and "having some issues."

 

ETA: If you have never left the US with children, you might not be aware of the seriousness with which border patrol takes that process. My teen son was quizzed on the information on his passport, the names of his parents, he was asked to visually identify us as his parents, border patrol made sure the addresses on all three passports match and made sure we had return flights booked. Then, when they returned passports, it they made sure they gave his passport directly to him. Admittedly, they gave everyone's passport back to them, no matter who turned them over, but the agent looked pointedly at my husband when he did it, so he seemed to be sending a message, IMO. FWIW, all three of us are caucasian and there is a family resemblance. 

 

 

 

 

This has not been our experience travelling internationally with our children.  There is no address on the passports to make sure they match.  We have had all passports handed back to one person in our party.  There has been airline security that has checked identity, etc.  But, generally, we have not encountered border patrol until we are reentering the US.  Our kids have also travelled internationally without us and with only one parent.  

[Lecka]

Wouldn’t he just go home on his home country’s passport?  Wouldn’t he go home on the same passport he entered on?  
 

I would assume his kids will need a passport to travel internationally.  I would assume they can apply for a passport from either the US or the mom’s home country.  If they qualify for the mom’s home country, maybe that country has an embassy that does foreign-born children passports.  
 

For the person I know, he couldn’t get his driver license valid for a date past the date his EAD expired.  He will have to keep renewing at the dmv, as he gets extensions, until he gets his green card (permanent residence).  Edit:  I mean his drivers license expires on the same day as his EAD.  

So my understanding is that this man may not be working legally or driving legally while his EAD is expired.

 

Edit:  for the driving there may be something about someone’s immigration status that makes a difference, or the state someone lives in, but that is what the situation is with the person I know in this state.  

Edit:  also some people have international licenses but I don’t know about that, but he might be driving legally now that I think about it more.  

Edited February 6 by Lecka

[regentrude]

32 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

This has not been our experience travelling internationally with our children.  There is no address on the passports to make sure they match.  We have had all passports handed back to one person in our party.  There has been airline security that has checked identity, etc.  But, generally, we have not encountered border patrol until we are reentering the US.  Our kids have also travelled internationally without us and with only one parent.  

Same here. We have traveled overseas every year. Not once was the parent traveling with the kids questioned about permission.

[Pam in CT]

On the general question of just one parent leaving the US with a minor kid - I did so ROUTINELY when my own kids were minors (my brother lived overseas, my husband worked 100 hours a week, I routinely traveled solo parent / sometimes my husband caught up later, or not) and my last name is different than theirs.  Never once questioned.

Once I traveled solo with my *brother's kids* (different name, different obvious ethnicity, different NATION'S PASSPORT) without hiccup. (The kids were old enough to say "yeah, that's my aunt" and I did have a letter signed by their parents in my bag, but was not asked to produce it.)

It may well be that a middle aged white woman gets less scrutiny than other profiles; and I presume (but do not know as fact) that there exists some sort of procedure through which a parent in the midst of a custody dispute who fears the other parent might try to abscond with the kids could take some sort of specific action to raise a red flag with immigration authorities. But I def would not rely on routine immigration procedures to prevent divorce kidnapping. That's not what they're there for. 

(Generally speaking, US immigration is vastly more concerned about folks coming IN than about folks going out. Vayan con Dios, on the outbound.)

[SKL]

4 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

On the general question of just one parent leaving the US with a minor kid - I did so ROUTINELY when my own kids were minors (my brother lived overseas, my husband worked 100 hours a week, I routinely traveled solo parent / sometimes my husband caught up later, or not) and my last name is different than theirs.  Never once questioned.

Once I traveled solo with my *brother's kids* (different name, different obvious ethnicity, different NATION'S PASSPORT) without hiccup. (The kids were old enough to say "yeah, that's my aunt" and I did have a letter signed by their parents in my bag, but was not asked to produce it.)

It may well be that a middle aged white woman gets less scrutiny than other profiles; and I presume (but do not know as fact) that there exists some sort of procedure through which a parent in the midst of a custody dispute who fears the other parent might try to abscond with the kids could take some sort of specific action to raise a red flag with immigration authorities. But I def would not rely on routine immigration procedures to prevent divorce kidnapping. That's not what they're there for. 

(Generally speaking, US immigration is vastly more concerned about folks coming IN than about folks going out. Vayan con Dios, on the outbound.)

I have never been "questioned" by the US either.  However, I assume that's because my kids only have one parent (me) and I've always been with them when they left the country.  That said, my kids have been questioned in other countries, including on a layover in Canada on the way to Spain.

Though the immigration folks may not question people 100% of the time, I still think it's illegal to take a child out of the US without each parent/legal guardian providing well-documented permission.  And for good reasons.  I don't know how they monitor these things, but I hope that info about a child's parents comes up when his passport is scanned, and that someone at the airport is making sure proper permissions are given. 

In any case, I would not advise a parent to try skirting the US laws just because they might not get caught.

[sweet2ndchance]

DFS placement does not guarantee him sole custody. Family court will take that into consideration for sure but even if she gets supervised visits, she still gets visits and he can’t just leave the country with them legally. The vast majority of the time, family court tries to keep both parents in the children’s lives no matter what else is going on.

My ex-sil lost custody of her kids to DFS many, many times before she was considered unfit. It took years of losing custody and getting them back before the kids were given the chance to be adopted by family. Even then she still got to see them on a supervised basis.

There are no guarantees in family court. Any lawyer who is filling your client’s head with the idea that sole custody and freedom to leave the country with the children is just a few court dates away is just after his money in my not so humble opinion.

[pinball]

3 hours ago, TechWife said:

Admittedly, they gave everyone's passport back to them, no matter who turned them over, but the agent looked pointedly at my husband when he did it, so he seemed to be sending a message, IMO

What might that message be? 

[Pam in CT]

re practical enforcement

11 minutes ago, SKL said:

I have never been "questioned" by the US either.  However, I assume that's because my kids only have one parent (me) and I've always been with them when they left the country.  That said, my kids have been questioned in other countries, including on a layover in Canada on the way to Spain.

Though the immigration folks may not question people 100% of the time, I still think it's illegal to take a child out of the US without each parent/legal guardian providing well-documented permission.  And for good reasons.  I don't know how they monitor these things, but I hope that info about a child's parents comes up when his passport is scanned, and that someone at the airport is making sure proper permissions are given. 

In any case, I would not advise a parent to try skirting the US laws just because they might not get caught.

Agreed, particularly to the bolded, and PARTICULARLY-PARTICULARLY if the parent contemplating skirting the law hopes or plans ever to return to the US.

(A parent planning to abscond with the kids to their home country may not plan ever to return. In some cases getting and keeping the kids out is exactly the point.)

 

My observation was coming from the other direction: A parent who FEARS that the other parent might try to abscond with the kids should not rely on routine immigration practices to ensure it can't happen. 

Routine immigration practices are mostly focused on who can come IN. (The *airlines* care that we have the right documentation to get into whatever our destination is, because the *airlines* don't want to deal with stranded passengers on the other side of the flight. So the *airlines* check for proper passport expiration dates and visas where required and etc.)

But it's really not a US problem if you leave the US with a documentation issue on the other side of your flight and get stranded in some foreign airport holding pen. And US immigration isn't primarily in the business of managing co-parenting dynamics.

[SKL]

10 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

re practical enforcement

Agreed, particularly to the bolded, and PARTICULARLY-PARTICULARLY if the parent contemplating skirting the law hopes or plans ever to return to the US.

(A parent planning to abscond with the kids to their home country may not plan ever to return. In some cases getting and keeping the kids out is exactly the point.)

 

My observation was coming from the other direction: A parent who FEARS that the other parent might try to abscond with the kids should not rely on routine immigration practices to ensure it can't happen. 

Routine immigration practices are mostly focused on who can come IN. (The *airlines* care that we have the right documentation to get into whatever our destination is, because the *airlines* don't want to deal with stranded passengers on the other side of the flight. So the *airlines* check for proper passport expiration dates and visas where required and etc.)

But it's really not a US problem if you leave the US with a documentation issue on the other side of your flight and get stranded in some foreign airport holding pen. And US immigration isn't primarily in the business of managing co-parenting dynamics.

Maybe true, I really don't know.

But if I knew someone was planning to take his kids out of the country without their other parent's permission, I would report it as a planned kidnapping.

[Pam in CT]

2 minutes ago, SKL said:

Maybe true, I really don't know.

But if I knew someone was planning to take his kids out of the country without their other parent's permission, I would report it as a planned kidnapping.

Yeah. I do not know for a FACT there is some sort of procedural red flag a concerned co-parent could explicitly invoke that would trigger an alarm at the outgoing border, but I would certainly hope such a thing exists. There is such a process for folks out on bail, and folks get flagged to *TSA* (which isn't, quite, immigration) as potential flight risks for far lesser stuff.

[Lecka]

I think there are ways to try to prevent a parent from getting a passport at the passport office or embassy.

 

 

[TravelingChris]

I am a former top immigration student at FLETC, and my name is on the wall as such.  I didn't read all the responses, but he may very well be in big trouble with the court and with immigration, depending on where this is all happening.  Right now, with this administration, he probably won't be deported.  However, I don't know where he is having this court case and how the judge will look at it.  If it is a progressive judge, they may not care about his status with regards to divorce.  The children definitely would need US Passports and probably could also want passports from whatever country he is from, but all with the wife's permission. Where he is from would also be a huge factor in the judge's decision.  He, of course, cannot get a US passport.  Is his work visa pending or his green card pending? But since he does not have a legal visa currently, he isn't here legally, or is he a so-called migrant who got employment papers?  If he is the latter, his chances of getting the kids are much smaller.   There are just too many instances of non-US citizens who even have green cards or dual citizens who take the kids, and the other parent never gets to see them again.  

Edited February 6 by TravelingChris

[TravelingChris]

3 hours ago, TechWife said:

Frankly, if he is from a patriarchal society, I would take everything he says with a grain of salt. That includes the mother not being "not fit" and "having some issues."

A court will not just allow him to move the kids to another country because he wants to, even if he has full custody and they have dual citizenship. They have a mother who has a right to have input on that decision and there are the best interests of the children to consider, which includes consideration of  the culture in which they would live were they to go overseas.

Him having custody and the mother giving up her parental rights are two different things entirely. The court will not allow either to happen lightly. There is also a difference between "getting a divorce" and actually being divorced. Even if he has full custody, that doesn't mean she won't have a right to visit with her children and to be part of their lives.

It sounds like he needs a family lawyer versed in international custody issues. If you're out of your depth with this, I think you need to tell him that.

I hope she has a good lawyer.

ETA: If you have never left the US with children, you might not be aware of the seriousness with which border patrol takes that process. My teen son was quizzed on the information on his passport, the names of his parents, he was asked to visually identify us as his parents, border patrol made sure the addresses on all three passports match and made sure we had return flights booked. Then, when they returned passports, it they made sure they gave his passport directly to him. Admittedly, they gave everyone's passport back to them, no matter who turned them over, but the agent looked pointedly at my husband when he did it, so he seemed to be sending a message, IMO. FWIW, all three of us are caucasian and there is a family resemblance. 

 

 

 

 

And it isn't just our border control that does this.  We like to watch the Smuggling shows on the Nat Geo channel and have seen the same issue of needing both parents or divorced parents who aren't traveling to prove they have permission to let kids leave or enter.  And I think it has probably gotten stricter.  My son was 16  when he was traveling back to Europe by himself from college during Christmas break and didn't have a problem.  But he did have paperwork from the US Military, his passport, military ID with his father's name, etc.  And I only traveled with kids alone in the US, not overseas.  

[Pam in CT]

And in situations like this the thing is, if the kids are eligible for dual status, the parent who wants to abscond can get the kids a passport from the OTHER (non-US) country by showing up at their embassy/ consulate. Which may not require both parents or notarized affidavits as US authorities do require (particularly if it happens to be a patriarchal society and it's the father showing up).

And if nobody in a traveling party is presenting as a US citizen, US immigration authorities are very unlikely to ask any questions at all on their way OUT. 

 

 

 

[Soror]

Nt

 

Edited February 8 by Soror

[Melissa in Australia]

On 2/7/2024 at 2:19 AM, TechWife said:

 

ETA: If you have never left the US with children, you might not be aware of the seriousness with which border patrol takes that process. My teen son was quizzed on the information on his passport, the names of his parents, he was asked to visually identify us as his parents, border patrol made sure the addresses on all three passports match and made sure we had return flights booked. Then, when they returned passports, it they made sure they gave his passport directly to him. Admittedly, they gave everyone's passport back to them, no matter who turned them over, but the agent looked pointedly at my husband when he did it, so he seemed to be sending a message, IMO. FWIW, all three of us are caucasian and there is a family resemblance. 

 

 

 

 

this.

 When my DH took some of our children to Canada to visit his family. the children had to carry a permission letter from me that I had given him permission for DH to travel with them out of the country. When he applied for the visiting visas for the children the Canadian embassy rang me to make sure I was aware. I know that this is Australian and not US. but it was the US border patrol that checked all the documents and my letter while they were in transit.

 Dh was a Canadian Citizen at the time and our children are dual citizens

 

Many countries are very careful about one parent stealing children and taking them to another country . it is very very messy trying to get children back afterwards

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Melissa in Australia said:

this.

 When my DH took some of our children to Canada to visit his family. the children had to carry a permission letter from me that I had given him permission for DH to travel with them out of the country. When he applied for the visiting visas for the children the Canadian embassy rang me to make sure I was aware. I know that this is Australian and not US. but it was the US border patrol that checked all the documents and my letter while they were in transit.

 Dh was a Canadian Citizen at the time and our children are dual citizens

 

Many countries are very careful about one parent stealing children and taking them to another country . it is very very messy trying to get children back afterwards

My nephew had to show a letter from his ex he had permission to take the kids in to  Canada.   We live in WA, the border is a three hour drive from here. People will go back and forth as a day trip. 

[Corraleno]

On 2/6/2024 at 4:42 AM, Soror said:

He says his children have citizenship in his home country due to his Mother's citizenship. His mother is from his home country but his father from a different ME country.

Being eligible for citizenship in his home country and having it are not quite the same thing. DS was born in the UK and was eligible for US citizenship, but DH and I had to go in person to the US Embassy in London with our passports and lots of other documents and officially get a US Certificate of Foreign Birth (for US citizens born abroad), and then get a US passport for him. He's also a UK citizen by virtue of being born in the UK to a UK citizen parent (DH), although he does not have a UK passport and would have to go to the nearest UK Embassy in the US and apply for one.

DD was automatically eligible for US citizenship when she was adopted, but we had to jump through lots of hoops for that — with extra hoops since we were living in the UK at the time. She was also eligible for UK citizenship because DH is a dual US/UK citizen, but unfortunately he never bothered to do the paperwork for that before we moved back to the US, and she's no longer eligible.

All that to say that if your client wants his children to have citizenship, and passports, for his home country, he needs to contact the nearest embassy or consulate for that country and find out exactly what documents they need to register the kids and issue passports. He can't just assume they're automatically citizens of his home country because they're his children.

Edited February 8 by Corraleno

[Laura Corin]

3 hours ago, Corraleno said:

Being eligible for citizenship in his home country and having it are not quite the same thing. DS was born in the UK and was eligible for US citizenship, but DH and I had to go in person to the US Embassy in London with our passports and lots of other documents and officially get a US Certificate of Foreign Birth (for US citizens born abroad), and then get a US passport for him. He's also a UK citizen by virtue of being born in the UK to a UK citizen parent (DH), although he does not have a UK passport and would have to go to the nearest UK Embassy in the US and apply for one.

DD was automatically eligible for US citizenship when she was adopted, but we had to jump through lots of hoops for that — with extra hoops since we were living in the UK at the time. She was also eligible for UK citizenship because DH is a dual US/UK citizen, but unfortunately he never bothered to do the paperwork for that before we moved back to the US, and she's no longer eligible.

All that to say that if your client wants his children to have citizenship, and passports, for his home country, he needs to contact the nearest embassy or consulate for that country and find out exactly what documents they need to register the kids and issue passports. He can't just assume they're automatically citizens of his home country because they're his children.

Yes. And their being born abroad may mean that the father has to prove - for example  - that he has resided in his home country for a certain number of years.  Some countries are wary these days of continuing to pass on citizenship to families with only tenuous links to the location. 

[Soror]

6 hours ago, Corraleno said:

Being eligible for citizenship in his home country and having it are not quite the same thing. DS was born in the UK and was eligible for US citizenship, but DH and I had to go in person to the US Embassy in London with our passports and lots of other documents and officially get a US Certificate of Foreign Birth (for US citizens born abroad), and then get a US passport for him. He's also a UK citizen by virtue of being born in the UK to a UK citizen parent (DH), although he does not have a UK passport and would have to go to the nearest UK Embassy in the US and apply for one.

DD was automatically eligible for US citizenship when she was adopted, but we had to jump through lots of hoops for that — with extra hoops since we were living in the UK at the time. She was also eligible for UK citizenship because DH is a dual US/UK citizen, but unfortunately he never bothered to do the paperwork for that before we moved back to the US, and she's no longer eligible.

All that to say that if your client wants his children to have citizenship, and passports, for his home country, he needs to contact the nearest embassy or consulate for that country and find out exactly what documents they need to register the kids and issue passports. He can't just assume they're automatically citizens of his home country because they're his children.

 

3 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

Yes. And their being born abroad may mean that the father has to prove - for example  - that he has resided in his home country for a certain number of years.  Some countries are wary these days of continuing to pass on citizenship to families with only tenuous links to the location. 

I talked to him about both his citizenship and the kids and put him in contact with the embassy. Thanks for the info!

And to be clear because assumptions keep popping up ...

No one has told him that he's for sure getting the kids. We have told him it is up to the judge and what stbx do in court. I personally told him he needs to be patient and wait for court. Judges vary and he is at their mercy. He's been told to keep on taking good care of the children. No one is advising him to steal the children and he's not indicated that he has any plans to do anything except what is allowed. All of the conversations have been about what he can do legally and how it's done. I came here to get information to pass along because I don't have experience with this and neither do any of my coworkers.

I passed on the information here, however we've been busy working on immediate needs and concerns as he waits for the outcome.

 

[Lecka]

Just as a thought, if money is an issue it might be cheaper to do one passport process or the other.

 

I agree with others, it’s important to secure the citizenship of the country they weren’t born in.  

 

But it can be pricy for two kids.  
 

There might also be a time difference for how long it takes to process things.  

This was for my oldest son, but in my memory we had to have his consular birth certificate saying he was a US citizen, before we could apply for his passport.  It added an extra step/time.  But the Mom’s country might not require anything like that.  

Edited February 8 by Lecka