Is it always better to do couples therapy?

[Eos]

Or do I need to be resolutely on ds' side: he says he's ready to be done with his marriage of ten years and said he isn't interested in couples therapy when I suggested it. It seems incredibly sudden to me but not to him.  I know I've been here in the past irritated with ddil for her difficult ways and so I guess I can't say it's a complete surprise.  We talked for a while last night, there is no other person in the background, he's stable and clear.

Please don't quote, I will probably delete.  I just need some input from moms who've been there, done that, either themselves or with their adult kids.

Edited January 30 by Eos

[HomeAgain]

I would have laughed in anyone's face had they suggested couple's therapy when I was with someone toxic. In fact, we did go to a few sessions and the therapist told him "she's out, and there's nothing you can do to change that."  I went into individual therapy for a bit later to figure out what I wanted and how to effectively communicate, but it wasn't going to be with that person.

Couple therapy only works if both parties feel there is a chance of change and is willing to work toward that change.  No matter how slight the chance - even if it's nothing more than feeling heard in the beginning.  If the relationship has gotten to a point of toxicity, the most therapy can do is help focus on coparenting any children and mediate issues.  That's it.

[Katy]

I think it’s a good idea to suggest it. It will help to make sure he’s absolutely done and won’t regret it later.

[Lawana]

Speaking as a fairly recently divorced person. We did some couples therapy which seemed to help at first, but then was weaponized against me. So it depends on the persons involved and the issues. Individual therapy may be more helpful. 

[sweet2ndchance]

With my divorce, there was just a point where I knew I was done with the relationship. Therapy would not have helped because part of knowing I was done was also knowing that my heart just wasn't in the relationship any longer. I just came to the realization that I didn't care anymore and had not cared for a while. Like was mentioned above, couples therapy only works if both parties are still invested in the relationship.

We had done couples therapy in the past but it was only a bandaid slapped on to a much bigger problem in our relationship. My only regret in my divorce is that I didn't do it sooner, when I first felt the urge to leave not when I felt like I was out of options.

[PeterPan]

If the other person is in a bad place (undiagnosed mental health problems, undiagnosed disabilities, addictions, whatever) they have their own issues to deal with before couples work would help. You can't change someone when they don't want to change. 

[HomeAgain]

1 hour ago, Lawana said:

Speaking as a fairly recently divorced person. We did some couples therapy which seemed to help at first, but then was weaponized against me. So it depends on the persons involved and the issues. Individual therapy may be more helpful. 

That's another good point -  couples therapy depends on a level of intimacy and trust found in a healthy marriage.  If the trust isn't there or you don't have unwavering faith that it is there, you can't get to the root of issues or fix them. 

[Lecka]

Well, you did suggest it.  
 

It doesn’t sound like you need to bring it up again.  
 

This sounds so sudden, I’m sorry.  
 

I had a rocky period in my marriage and chose not to share it with my parents, because if we did stay together I didn’t want them to think negatively about my husband.  This was differently the right call for us!  

[Scarlett]

I am so sorry.  Do they have children? 
 

I think suggesting it was fine.  There is probably a lot you don’t know.  

[Murphy101]

I think he should do therapy for himself regardless.  To learn what about this person attracted him and how he can avoid that in the future for example.  Bc most re-marriages also end in divorce for a reason. So it might be helpful to his future relationships and himself.

Couple’s therapy is about figuring out how to work together toward a common future. If either party has decided they are no longer ever interested in doing that, either in marriage or afterwards (such as with kids) - then it’s a waste of time and money better saved for lawyers.

 

[Tap]

I asked for the divorce, dh didn’t want it. But he was also rarely home and traveled for work. Our marriage was 100% roommate based for many years. Our divorce totally upended his life and changed nothing in mine except income and custody with a teenager going to visit him on occasion. I refused couples therapy when dh asked because I no longer trusted him as a partner. 30 years together, I knew who he and I both were. We didn’t need to change. Our relationship had just found an amicable end. Therapy to me, would have rehashed the past, drug up drama about situations that were long buried and still led to the same end.  

[Eos]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

 Do they have children? 

No.  They have tried and tried, the grief of which has affected them both but her especially.

35 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

I think he should do therapy for himself regardless.  To learn what about this person attracted him and how he can avoid that in the future for example.  Bc most re-marriages also end in divorce for a reason. So it might be helpful to his future relationships and himself.

I suggested this to him this morning, and he is receptive.  

[Eos]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

If the other person is in a bad place (undiagnosed mental health problems, undiagnosed disabilities, addictions, whatever) they have their own issues to deal with before couples work would help. You can't change someone when they don't want to change. 

She has recently begun her own therapy, which is a good thing.  In this sense I think my ds is being impatient. 

[JustEm]

1 hour ago, Eos said:

. 

Sadly, sometimes it is too little too late. If they have been having issues for a while then her going to therapy now won't necessarily fix things. A neglected marriage sometimes just needs to end.

And in terms of it seeming incredibly sudden to you, that isn't surprising to me. My parents don't know that dh and I separated for a short period of time and they lived with us during that time. On the outside we had a seemingly happy marriage filled with love and few hardships. But the reality was we did have a marriage filled with love but lots of poor communication that created huge rifts between us until I no longer believed he loved me since his actions didn't show it. On his side, he was struggling with the strain of being the sole financial provider while having a job that was the root of all our marital issues. And he didn't know how to change things so he shut me out thinking it would protect me. During the separation we both stayed in the family home just in separate rooms. And we were always cordial and co-parented well. Had we not worked through things and divorced everyone in our lives would have been shocked beyond belief

[gardenmom5]

I think suggestion it is good.  trying it is good.  is she difficult because she's toxic, or is she difficult because she's got a lot of baggage that she needs to do therapy for herself? (that doesn't mean someone will actually do it)  There is a difference.

A *decent* counselor should be able to tell the difference.

[bolt.]

I think it's fine that you made the suggestion.

But he has answered you. And as his parent, you don't get to be a neutral party or an objective outsider. You don't get to have hopes for the marriage (apart from his hopes, if he expresses any) or opinions about the wisdom, speed, or reasons for the various phases of this relationship change/end.

You need to be 100% resolutely on his side, as you said. That means offering unconditional support, and regarding him as the only expert on his own life, with yourself as merely a loving bystander. He needs the solid sense of your belief in him about a million times more than he needs your perspective, your ideas, or your advice. He's going to struggle to do anything if he doesn't believe in himself, and he will be so much stronger, more decisive and healthier in himself if he knows you really, actually, support him fully.

I mean, you can have *thoughts* about various things. Nobody can stop themselves from thinking. But you don't get to express them or even hint at them unless you are asked directly what you think. And even if you are asked directly, your reply should be 90% "I think you're the one who knows this situation best, and that you are doing a great job of thinking it through." And only 10%, "Have you maybe considered xyz at all?"

(And while you are having your thoughts, remember to hold them lightly. There's soooooo much it's impossible for you to know. Only your ds really understands the situation in all of its complex nuances. His perspective is the one with the weight behind it.)

[gardenmom5]

2 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

I think he should do therapy for himself regardless.  To learn what about this person attracted him and how he can avoid that in the future for example.  Bc most re-marriages also end in divorce for a reason. So it might be helpful to his future relationships and himself.

Couple’s therapy is about figuring out how to work together toward a common future. If either party has decided they are no longer ever interested in doing that, either in marriage or afterwards (such as with kids) - then it’s a waste of time and money better saved for lawyers.

 

This.

2 hours ago, Eos said:

No.  They have tried and tried, the grief of which has affected them both but her especially.

I suggested this to him this morning, and he is receptive.  

This is huge.  I think many couples with children, or who didn't struggle for years having children, wont' really understand the full dynamics and effect.  It can be a complete game changer in a relationship by itself.
I'm glad she's in therapy - I would imagine this is one of the things being discussed with her counselor.

[Toocrazy!!]

The infertility part is huge. It can wreck you. Both spouses. It’s hard. I’m sorry they’re going through that. 
We tried for 4 years before having our DS, and then pretty much after that with no more success. It’s rough. And if she’s on hormones of any sort, they can totally mess with your personality. I was a mess. 
That might not be their issue at all. Obviously no one but the couple really knows what goes on in a marriage. 

[Eos]

30 minutes ago, bolt. said:

I think it's fine that you made the suggestion.

But he has answered you. And as his parent, you don't get to be a neutral party or an objective outsider. You don't get to have hopes for the marriage (apart from his hopes, if he expresses any) or opinions about the wisdom, speed, or reasons for the various phases of this relationship change/end.

You need to be 100% resolutely on his side, as you said. That means offering unconditional support, and regarding him as the only expert on his own life, with yourself as merely a loving bystander. He needs the solid sense of your belief in him about a million times more than he needs your perspective, your ideas, or your advice. He's going to struggle to do anything if he doesn't believe in himself, and he will be so much stronger, more decisive and healthier in himself if he knows you really, actually, support him fully.

I mean, you can have *thoughts* about various things. Nobody can stop themselves from thinking. But you don't get to express them or even hint at them unless you are asked directly what you think. And even if you are asked directly, your reply should be 90% "I think you're the one who knows this situation best, and that you are doing a great job of thinking it through." And only 10%, "Have you maybe considered xyz at all?"

(And while you are having your thoughts, remember to hold them lightly. There's soooooo much it's impossible for you to know. Only your ds really understands the situation in all of its complex nuances. His perspective is the one with the weight behind it.)

Wise words, thank you.

[Lecka]

I think it’s really easy to cross a line from “support” to “second guessing.”

 

The only way not to be a second-guesser, is to just actively minimize second guessing.  

[J-rap]

I'm sorry, it's so hard for everybody.  I think suggesting it is fine, and it's probably the best first step!

After that though, then individual therapy is good and probably needed.  

Individual therapy can maybe give them a chance to understand themselves and the relationship better in a less-pressured setting, and even help steer a path forward within the marriage.  But whether the marriage continues or not, they'll hopefully begin the journey of learning more about themselves in individual therapy.

Just to throw it out there though (and I know nothing about dil or back story):  But a divorce doesn't always mean that one of them is bad or toxic.  Sometimes, no mater how hard a couple tries to make it work, they just can't figure out how to live life together.  

As far as do you stand up for your child resolutely no matter what.  I wouldn't be able to strongly stand up for something that I thought was wrong or a lie, but I would make sure my child knew he was loved no matter what, and would probably keep my mouth shut after that.  (After it seemed too late to help, anyway.)  

[barnwife]

5 hours ago, bolt. said:

You need to be 100% resolutely on his side, as you said. That means offering unconditional support, and regarding him as the only expert on his own life, with yourself as merely a loving bystander. He needs the solid sense of your belief in him about a million times more than he needs your perspective, your ideas, or your advice. He's going to struggle to do anything if he doesn't believe in himself, and he will be so much stronger, more decisive and healthier in himself if he knows you really, actually, support him fully.

I mean, you can have *thoughts* about various things. Nobody can stop themselves from thinking. But you don't get to express them or even hint at them unless you are asked directly what you think. And even if you are asked directly, your reply should be 90% "I think you're the one who knows this situation best, and that you are doing a great job of thinking it through." And only 10%, "Have you maybe considered xyz at all?"

(And while you are having your thoughts, remember to hold them lightly. There's soooooo much it's impossible for you to know. Only your ds really understands the situation in all of its complex nuances. His perspective is the one with the weight behind it.)

This is so wise.

DH and I are not in a good place. We just had a discussion re: separation and divorce. 

When I recently tried to talk to my mom about how bad things actually are, her response was "well, just keep working on it."

I wasn't shocked by her response, but boy has it cause me more stress and grief during an already really, really difficult time. I have never, ever felt that my mom was 100% on my side during any struggles, fwiw. And yes, that means we aren't as close as we could be.

So, OP, for the sake of your relationship with your son, let it go. You suggested it. Now just be his biggest cheerleader no matter what he/they choose.

[Not_a_Number]

Couples' therapy doesn't work if there's any kind of power imbalance. I wouldn't have gone with my DH until we resolved that. 

Edited January 31 by Not_a_Number

[Scarlett]

I have never been much sold on couples therapy but I have a friend and her husband who are seeing a therapist who uses the Gottman method.  I am pleasantly very pleased with how it is going for them.  But in this case the husband picked the therapist and now really has no excuse to not follow along with the counsel.  

[Not_a_Number]

As for what to do with your son . . . I know that I personally am not able to feel otherwise than I actually feel. If I feel shellshocked, sad, and like it's too sudden, then I won't be able to act like I feel otherwise. My empathy will not be genuine. It will feel wrong to the other person. 

 

What I'd do is stop giving advice and be open about how you feel, but also try to get to a place where you realize that your grief doesn't give you the right to tell him what to do and that your feelings are about YOU. And I'd try to see if you can have conversations with your son where you just listen with a completely open mind and don't make suggestions. I'd guess that if you do that, you'll have a far better understanding of where he is and your feelings will shift, too, and you'll be able to be genuinely supportive. 

 

And if even after listening, you think he should try couples' therapy, then your opinion will have the merit of being informed. (And in that case, I'd make that suggestion ONCE and leave it be. Deal with your feelings about how things are and be there for your son.) 

Edited January 31 by Not_a_Number

[Lecka]

Another thing is, it is upsetting to you, and that’s fair, but your son shouldn’t have to manage your feelings right now. 
 

At the same time, besides concern for your son, you are directly impacted.  You have had a relationship with your dil, and ten years of family memories and shared times.  It’s not fair to act like it is nothing to you.  
 

But you can do that without making it your son’s problem.  He doesn’t have to satisfy you that he has done his due diligence.

 

You may know his personality and character well enough to think either he has probably behaved honorably, or that maybe he has not.  But either way he doesn’t have to justify himself to you.  
 

But that is different from just being in shock when someone tells you news like this, it’s a lot to take in, and especially out of nowhere.  
 

My mother-in-law and father-in-law got a divorce about 18 months ago… they have got poor boundaries.  I might be overreacting in a huge way, but I am so in favor of boundaries right now.  

[Eos]

I'm just fully in support mode.  He says they're done.

[Eos]

10 hours ago, Lecka said:

 He doesn’t have to satisfy you that he has done his due diligence.

Holding this, thank you.  Of course, I worry that if he regrets it in the future, I will wish I had.

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

So much happens in a marriage that nobody knows. My mom doesn’t have a clue what has or is going on in my marriage. My dad is closer to my husband and probably does, but is wise enough to not say anything.

My in laws probably know much more, because DH is very close to his parents(in a good way; I wouldn’t call them enmeshed) and they are extremely observant and have figured a lot of stuff out.

But if I called my mom tomorrow and said we were splitting up, she’d be shocked and probably suggest couples therapy, not having any idea the background or what has been tried.

Be 100% on your son’s side(I am assuming he is neither abusive or unfaithful) and be supportive.  Between infertility and an impending divorce, it sounds like things are rough for him.

[Eos]

12 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

(I am assuming he is neither abusive or unfaithful)

He is not, nor is she, just stuck in a bad communications rut, I think.

He may also be having a bit of a mid-life crisis, he's turning 35 this year. 

[Lecka]

I think it would be better to say, you might wish HE had been more open to working on the marriage.

That’s different than wishing YOU had done some kind of intervention.  
 

I think there is a lot of likelihood of regret and sadness, but it’s just so limited what is reasonable to do to fix a problem. 
 

The problem is, it’s very hard to say “you told me x but I’m going to disagree with you about x” without undermining support and it detracts from thinking someone is a capable and mature person able to handle their lives even if there are mistakes and regrets.

 

I am a spectator to people knowing all about their parents’ divorce and invited to weigh in on so many things.  It is a mess.  It is not worth it.  Of course that’s really far from anything you might do, but it got ridiculous really fast with just the idea that there should be people who should weigh in and have a say.  It is also (in practice) heavy on manipulation and very one-sided ways of looking at things and sharing information.  

[Heartstrings]

2 hours ago, Eos said:

Holding this, thank you.  Of course, I worry that if he regrets it in the future, I will wish I had.

Adults are allowed to have regrets.  Can you imagine running everything through for your own mothers approval or satisfaction? Or if your husband did that? 

Edited January 31 by Heartstrings

[Eos]

1 hour ago, Heartstrings said:

Adults are allowed to have regrets.  Can you imagine running everything through for your own mothers approval or satisfaction? Or if your husband did that? 

I know, just wishing we could spare our children pain when we can't.

[Heartstrings]

17 minutes ago, Eos said:

I know, just wishing we could spare our children pain when we can't.

It's definitely one of the hardest parts of parenting.  It was so much easier when they were tiny.  

[kathyl]

One of our sons recently divorced.  I didn't take sides - his or hers - because *I* have no idea what went on in their marriage.  Mostly, all dh and I did was to offer to let him stay with us, which he did. 

I did ask him once what he thought happened, generally.  He only said a couple of things and that was it.  (I still don't know what happened.)  Then, I told him he might want to think about what went wrong - for future relationships he might have because it's fairly common for a person to divorce and turn around and marry a similar person later. 

I know ds talks to a friend of his about it sometimes because he will tell me what that guy said every now and then.  And I'm glad ds has a good friend like that. 

I've never suggested therapy or anything else (except for the above) to ds to try to help him.  He seems pretty intent on figuring out everything himself, so I let him be.  I'm here if he ever wants to talk, of course.  

 

Edited February 1 by kathyl

[Eos]

They have slowed down their process a little.  Ds says they're talking about everything, so that is better than last week.  I can't tell which way they're going but just the fact that the intensity has abated and they're talking seems better.  Thank you all for helpful advice and support.

[Eos]

Again, please don't quote, thank you.

It's been a roller-coaster.  In three weeks they've gone up and down three times.  Ds has begun personal therapy, for which I'm glad. This morning I had a very long call with ds, who sounded completely normal - sad and frustrated but normal.

Ddil called me later in the morning. I listened to her but told her I needed to be supporting ds, and that I would think about what she said.  I said a lot of "I'm so sorry, it's so hard for both of you" and other neutral phrases. I felt good about laying down a boundary but also being compassionate.  She's miserable but I'm not going to analyze or even discuss ds's feelings with her.

OK, here's my concern.  Ddil told me she's worried about ds. I think she was implying mental illness. And I knew what she meant - in the last 6 months he's changed his look, bought a motorcycle, and now seems to be heading toward divorce. I believe this fits perfectly with what is dismissively called "mid-life crisis." There's quite a bit of writing about it online, enough that it seems like a genuine set of symptoms.

When he first told me about their issues, I did worry.  They hadn't come up for New Year's which is unusual, and he hadn't asked us what we wanted for Christmas which was also kinda weird. I know he's unhappy and possibly depressed, which is very different from his usual happy-go-lucky self.  Should I be worried about mental illness beyond depression? Or does this seem "normal" for a 34 year old man who is finally coming to terms with the fact that he's done a huge amount of emotional and physical caretaking in his marriage and might be done?  How would I know?  She's in the throes of grief, and while it may seem like mental illness to her,  to him it's been building for a while and he's feeling new relief from allowing his feelings to come out.

I might start a spin off about midlife crisis.  I fear it's a term that is used as a joke or a meme, downplaying a real issue.

[bolt.]

First: I think you did *GREAT* -- like absolutely awesome. Your implementation of "open to listening, neutrally supportive, but also boundaried" with Ddil was flawless.

I think it's fair to be mentally adding up those symptoms and wondering what they mean. If he wasn't getting mental healthcare right now, that would probably be my primary suggestion. However, since he is in therapy now, he's got a professional in his corner who will definitely know the differences between mid-life crisis, depression, and relationship issues -- plus how they might combine and how they can be sorted out. So, if I was parenting an adult kid through this, that would ease my worry a lot. I don't need to figure out how serious it is, because he's already under the care of someone who can treat all of those things, whichever one it happens to be.

My only other thought is that you can't let what your Ddil expressed to you become part of your own thinking. She may be looking for a 'team mate' or a way to deliver messages and perspectives indirectly to him through you. (She might or might not be doing that consciously.) Your awareness of these changes in your son over the last 6mos hasn't changed much, and it doesn't actually become a bigger issue just because two people noticed it.

For interpreting your Ddil:

On the one hand: if your Ddil is 'worried' about your son's mental health (or at least she has expressed herself that way) that's a form of not having completely given up on the relationship. On the other hand: creating the impression that your son's behaviour is irrational, and coming mostly from someplace internal to himself, might simply be a form of blame-shifting and setting herself up as a blameless party. It's mixed in my opinion

Edited February 22 by bolt.

[Arcadia]

Infertility can exacerbate midlife crisis and unhappiness can lead to communications issue with both parties not wanting to talk about the elephant in the room. Changing his looks and getting a motorbike might just be trying to get back some control in his life.

[Eos]

1 minute ago, bolt. said:

If he wasn't getting mental healthcare right now, that would probably be my primary suggestion. However, since he is in therapy now, he's got a professional in his corner who will definitely know the differences between mid-life crisis, depression, and relationship issues -- plus how the combine and how they can be sorted out. So, if I was parenting an adult kid through this, that would ease my worry a lot. I don't need to figure out how serious it is, because he's already under the care of someone who can treat all of those things, whichever one it happens to be.

Thank you, I just had this thought before reading your post and it's very helpful.

[Eos]

4 minutes ago, bolt. said:

My only other thought is that you can't let what your Ddil expressed to you become part of your own thinking. She may be looking for a 'team mate' or a way to deliver messages and perspectives indirectly to him through you. (She might or might not be doing that consciously.) Your awareness of these changes in your son over the last 6mos hasn't changed much, and it doesn't actually become a bigger issue just because two people noticed it.

Also thank you for this. You are a wise person.

[maize]

13 minutes ago, bolt. said:

However, since he is in therapy now, he's got a professional in his corner who will definitely know the differences between mid-life crisis, depression, and relationship issues -- plus how they might combine and how they can be sorted out.

Unfortunately this part is not true!

Therapists vary widely in their abilities, and a therapist who has only the perspective of a person who may or may not have a decent grasp on objective reality to base their judgments off of can get entirely the wrong impression. I've seen it happen many times.

The perspective of family members can be critical and often more reliable than that of a person struggling with mental health.

[Not_a_Number]

I'd heavily weigh what kind of person your DDIL is when thinking about what she said. This kind of blame-shifting is standard. 

I've actually had it in my life recently -- I told my mom that I'd need a break from talking to her, and she immediately called my DH and started talking about how she was worried about me being mentally ill. That's the only way her brain could process the rejection -- to make it be something entirely outside her control, entirely about me. 

It's a very common tactic with personality disorders. I don't know your DDIL, so I can't say if that's what's going on, but it's something to keep in mind. 

[KSera]

1 hour ago, maize said:

Therapists vary widely in their abilities, and a therapist who has only the perspective of a person who may or may not have a decent grasp on objective reality to base their judgments off of can get entirely the wrong impression. I've seen it happen many times.

This is what I was going to follow up on as well. If he didn’t expressly go to the therapist for depression, I wouldn’t even begin to assume the therapist would pick it up. And even if he did go with that as his concern, I wouldn’t necessarily make an assumption the therapist is good and addressing it appropriately. Some therapists do a lot of scapegoating as well, and some just plain aren’t very good at what they do (while some others are awesome).

[Catwoman]

I haven't read all of the replies yet, but I don't think couples therapy is necessary unless the couple wants it. 

In this situation, I think you should support your son and let him know you have his back, no matter what happened between him and his wife. Just be there for him as a sounding board and help him if he needs it. Right now, what matters is that you're there for your son as he deals with this very emotional situation. I wouldn't put too much stock in what your DIL is telling you right now, because even though she might be sincere, she might also be trying to manipulate you into taking her side in this, or she may just be so emotional that she isn't seeing the situation clearly and doesn't see her role in the problems within the marriage. I know I sound mean and unsympathetic, but your son's happiness comes first -- and his happiness may not include your DIL at this time in his life.

I would be recommending that your son see an attorney rather than a therapist, particularly if there are assets at stake here. He needs to know his rights in this situation, and not be taken advantage of by his soon-to-be-ex. Assume she has already seen a lawyer. Seeing a lawyer doesn't necessarily mean your son has to get a divorce; making sure his ducks are in a row is simply a smart and sensible thing to do 

(I should mention that I am not anti-divorce, and if your son wants a divorce, I would support him in whatever he chooses to do, without judgment.)

Edited February 22 by Catwoman
Got caught up on some of the other posts and saw more info

[kathyl]

Catwoman has an excellent point.  He should at least talk to a lawyer just to get a general idea of what to expect if things end up in divorce.

[Catwoman]

1 hour ago, kathyl said:

Catwoman has an excellent point.  He should at least talk to a lawyer just to get a general idea of what to expect if things end up in divorce.

Thanks!

I was surprised that no one else had suggested it, because it's usually the first thing mentioned whenever a woman's marriage is in trouble. Why should it be different for a man?

[Eos]

Holding my oldest son in the light today.

[Catwoman]

15 minutes ago, Eos said:

Holding my oldest son in the light today.

Sending him lots of positive thoughts and prayers! 

[Eos]

Update: dear son and soon-to-be-ex daughter in law separated fairly peacefully, ds giving up the small amount of equity in their house and custody of the dog to facilitate the process. I pushed him very gently on this point but he was clear it wasn't worth the interaction to go after it. During the worst of it he showed me a couple of her texts which were pretty ugly but he never snapped back. 

When he was first talking about ending the marriage, he was irritated by everything: job, location, friends. But when he moved out and reorganized his life, it turns out that all those other things were fine, it was the relationship that was weighing him down. Now he has an apartment, his community of solid friends, he's back to loving his stressful job.

I would not wish it for any of my kids but I'm glad he has made this move. He's "back" in a way that is healthy and new, not bitter. His siblings have truly rallied for him and they are all closer in a very sweet way.

Thanks for support here. I listened to the advice to keep to the path of unconditional support and of course it was the right one.

Edited May 9 by Eos