thatfirstsip Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 I'm just trying to check my perspective; I read this as pretty weird, and I can't find any reference point for it pretty much anywhere on the internet or in any academic literature, but it's possible I'm really out of the loop. Important notes: this idea is not mine, I'd never in a million years do it or anything like it, and the person who suggested it to me isn't involved with my kids (or to my knowledge, any kids) in any way. The suggestion was to use (or to tell people that I had used, as some sort of protective cover to make it seem like I'm a good disciplinarian according to the school system) the following method, which they called behavioral head-down: when the child has misbehaved, press gently on the back of their head so that their head falls between their knees, and maintain that position for 5-10 seconds. It's nonviolent, I get that, but it feels demeaning and unnecessary to me - but mostly, it just seems weird. Does it seem weird to you? Have you heard of anything like this in any parenting or maybe behavioral modification forums or anything? Please don't quote, I'll probably delete. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 I have never heard of this, and frankly it sounds too much like that Russian arrest technique of pulling people arms and hands so far up behind their backs that it forces them into a bowing position (at best) for me to even consider it. Frankly the idea makes me sick. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmom Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 That’s bizarre. I’ve never ever heard of it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSera Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 Never heard of such a thing. For some reason it makes me think of people who believe in dominance theory with dogs and flip them on their backs and pin them down. 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissa in Australia Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 I can't see how you can press gently on a misbehaving child to get them into this position unless the child was being compliant. And then they probably wouldn't be misbehaving in the first place. Wouldn't some sort of wrestling be needed ? 11 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thatfirstsip Posted January 23 Author Share Posted January 23 Yeah that was my feeling about it. Thanks for your thoughts, I was really thrown by it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartstrings Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 It sounds more like a way to treat light headedness, that’s crazy. Are you meant to “force” them or is it a regulation technique the kids are suppose to learn in their own, like a self regulation thing? Was the suggestion to use it or say you used on your own children at home or as a school discipline technique? “Gently” “guiding” a child’s head down sounds like assault to me in a school setting, and a risky kind where you are messing with peoples neck. That sounds like a recipe for disaster. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eos Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 I remember kids having to put their heads down on their desks for a minute (usually folding their arm over the top of their heads) following misbehavior but nobody touched them to ensure compliance which sounds horrible to me. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomeAgain Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 You just brought back memories of survival training, so no I wouldn't use this on a kid. It feels too much like invisible cage training. The only thing I can think of is a child who is hyperventilating and needs to be repositioned in order to catch their breath, but that doesn't sound like what you are describing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pawz4me Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 6 hours ago, KSera said: Never heard of such a thing. For some reason it makes me think of people who believe in dominance theory with dogs and flip them on their backs and pin them down. That was my first thought, too. And many of us knew it was wackadoodle even before it was officially thoroughly debunked. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 No I wouldn’t try that, and I cannot think that any defiant child would comply without physical force. This reminds me of that grad student a few years back who was trying to get everyone to ask babies and toddlers for consent to change their diapers. I can sort-of maybe understand their academic reasoning, but she’s clearly never even babysat for an actual child. Humans don’t work that way. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnM Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 Don't touch a child. Period. Unless they come up to give you a hug or they are violent and you need to restrain. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drama Llama Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 I used to do crisis intervention training as part of my job, so I am going to start by saying two things. One is that the only times when an adult in a school or other professional setting should be putting their hands on a child without clear consent is when there is an immediate threat to safety. The second is that if you absolutely have to touch a child or control their positioning the most dangerous positions by far, the ones that lead to positional asphyxia, are those where someone is either lying prone, had pressure on their back or chest, or is bent at the waist more than 90 degree. So, this is actually a dangerous practice. Kids die every year from restraint and any kind of use of force to make a kid comply with this would be risky. Having said that, I do have techniques that I have used that somewhat incorporate the idea that a change in position leads to a change in mood. One is that my youngest and my little nephew are both kids who like to be transitioned to sleep by an adult who puts them on their shoulder and sways gently and hums a song and kisses their forehead and strokes their temple. It’s like a Jedi mind trick. And I have been know to pick up an overtired toddler who is angry at some limit I have set, and who needs to be contained safely, and do that for a moment and watch them switch from “but I want to play chicken with the cars in this parking lot” to “oh, you are right a nice nap in my car seat sounds delightful”. When a young kid has lost it in a spectacular way, and we are trying to get it back together and have moved past the anger to the scared panicky, I want to calm down but I don’t have the skills to do it stage, one of the techniques I sometimes use is to hold up my fingers and ask them to blow out my birthday candles, and the gradually move the fingers further away, and once they are calmer and their breathing is more regulated which make them less panicky to suggest we sit down long style next to or facing each other and blowing out our “toe candles” which gets them in a position to talk. But of course that is without touching them. 11 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faith-manor Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 8 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said: I have never heard of this, and frankly it sounds too much like that Russian arrest technique of pulling people arms and hands so far up behind their backs that it forces them into a bowing position (at best) for me to even consider it. Frankly the idea makes me sick. I 100% agree with you, and it too reminds me of this Russian method which I have actually hears 2 state troopers here opine that they wish they could do that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecka Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 No. My son did ABA therapy and there is nothing like this. In fact, you are explicitly not supposed to touch children on the face or head. Realistically, how 100% calm are people when they decide to push on a child’s head. It’s just — the kind of thing that could escalate so easily on that side. On the child’s side, how would this not escalate. Like, how do you gently hold a child’s head down. It just does not make any sense. They should do actual behavioral interventions and actively avoiding escalation is so important. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MercyA Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 Never heard of it, and I've heard of a lot of weird stuff. I don't like the sound of it at all. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thatfirstsip Posted January 23 Author Share Posted January 23 It was explicitly proposed not as a thing you encourage the child to do for self-regulation, but as a non-violent (which I guess was meant as "not intended to cause pain") aversive to modify behavior. It seemed both impractical (how do you force an upset child's head down without potentially causing pain, or even injury?) and demeaning - but then I thought, this person has access to recent developments in the field, probably, so maybe it's a real thing and I'm just overreacting. I don't think I'm overreacting; I think it's weird, and I appreciate that the combined hundreds of years of parenting experience here (and some professional experience, even) also says: weird, and not good. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 Years ago I remember someone I knew was big into pressure points with kids when they were spinning out of control. She used to do something when her kid was... misbehaving is the wrong word, but out of control in that little kid way. I think it was on the hand? I could never decide if it was total woo or if it was working or if it was just that she was paying attention to him and using positive touch that made it work, so it wasn't any better than any other sort of touch and attention. And at first I thought this was going to go that direction. But, um. No. I'm with everyone else. This feels like a crazy asserting dominance type thing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drama Llama Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 21 minutes ago, thatfirstsip said: It was explicitly proposed not as a thing you encourage the child to do for self-regulation, but as a non-violent (which I guess was meant as "not intended to cause pain") aversive to modify behavior. It seemed both impractical (how do you force an upset child's head down without potentially causing pain, or even injury?) and demeaning - but then I thought, this person has access to recent developments in the field, probably, so maybe it's a real thing and I'm just overreacting. I don't think I'm overreacting; I think it's weird, and I appreciate that the combined hundreds of years of parenting experience here (and some professional experience, even) also says: weird, and not good. Weird, not good, and dangerous. As someone who has supervised teachers, this is something that would and should get someone fired in the "collect your belongings and leave" manner, not the "we aren't continuing your contract next year." if they worked for me. 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolt. Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 That's a really bizarre idea, and I'm pretty sure it's not only not "non-violent" but actually it's super aggressive and terrifying in addition to there being a *serious* risk of injury if a child resisted the pressure in the *slightest*. A conversation like that would most likely lead me to suspect that the adult I was speaking to had been abused as a child. And I would also wonder where-the-heavens anybody lives, in which it might be considered a positive things to report to anyone in authority that one had treated one's children like that -- allegedly to seem like a 'good' disciplinarian!!! Around here even a hint that you were 'disciplining' your children like that would get a hard second-look from someone in authority, and probably some gentle follow up with information about 'more effective' disciplinary techniques... at the very least! If the adult you were speaking with thinks that's a good thing to tell authorities, I'd love to know whether that's maybe-kinda-true in your area, or if the person is out to lunch. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thatfirstsip Posted January 23 Author Share Posted January 23 They're definitely out of touch with local social norms; we're very suburban Midwest here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drama Llama Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 2 minutes ago, thatfirstsip said: They're definitely out of touch with local social norms; we're very suburban Midwest here. What is their role? Are they a teacher? A parent? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thatfirstsip Posted January 23 Author Share Posted January 23 They're neither a teacher nor parent; they don't have any regular interactions with kids - so I wasn't worried for my kids, or anything, but I rely on them professionally in non-parenting things, so whether they're either lying to me or completely out to lunch is important to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolt. Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 On thinking about it, there is something in (I think I remember) "The Whole Brian Child" about turning upside down (?) being good for helping someone regain emotional regulation. I halfway-remember advising one of my kids to hang their head off the edge of the couch for a moment and see if it helped when they were upset. If your person is 'up to date' on parenting techniques: I guess that might have been a seed of an idea that could have conceivably led an unreasonable person (probably someone who has no idea how it is to work with actual children in the real world) to imagine forcing a child's head into a certain position? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 2 minutes ago, bolt. said: On thinking about it, there is something in (I think I remember) "The Whole Brian Child" about turning upside down (?) being good for helping someone regain emotional regulation. I halfway-remember advising one of my kids to hang their head off the edge of the couch for a moment and see if it helped when they were upset. If your person is 'up to date' on parenting techniques: I guess that might have been a seed of an idea that could have conceivably led an unreasonable person (probably someone who has no idea how it is to work with actual children in the real world) to imagine forcing a child's head into a certain position? Yeah, swinging or spinning can help with emotional regulation, but that’s worlds apart from forcing anything. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thatfirstsip Posted January 23 Author Share Posted January 23 (edited) I also would have understood it as a "this thing might help a child self-regulate, so encourage the child to try it" and wouldn't have been weirded out by that at all. It was proposed as a non-violent aversive technique, akin to blowing in a cat's face when it's doing something objectionable (which, like, I also would never do, but mostly I just try to avoid cats, so idk). Edited January 23 by thatfirstsip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danae Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 Physically pushing someone’s head down is not non-violent. I’m also confused by the fact that this person thinks parents should report their disciplinary techniques to the school. Since when is that a thing? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 It's an interesting idea, but not one I've heard of. I could see it helping a person calm down from a hyper / anxious episode. I think I may try it on myself sometime when I'm feeling panicky over stress. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 When my youngest was a baby, lying with her head lower than the rest of her body used to be one of her preferred positions, and it would calm her if she was cranky. I never really gave it a lot of thought, but maybe there is something to that. It may also be individual-specific. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thatfirstsip Posted January 23 Author Share Posted January 23 So I emailed the person to ask for clarification, and specifically to ask if it had been said facetiously, as a sort of dry humor - that is to say, made up - since I couldn't find any reference for it and you guys also thought it was weird. The person does have a dry sense of humor, but there was so much detail and defense of it (complete with a real-sounding term!) that I really thought they had meant it. Neither of us laughed when we were discussing it, kwim? They said that there will be nothing on the internet about it, and it wasn't intended seriously at all; that they could have just said to tell the school something the school would accept. I think now I'm more confused than before, but at least it wasn't meant seriously? Anyway, thanks for all of your perspectives, and for making me feel less crazy. I'll delete in a few hours. What a weird interaction. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corraleno Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 28 minutes ago, thatfirstsip said: they could have just said to tell the school something the school would accept. Is it possible that this person assumes most parents physically punish their kids, so was suggesting that parents tell the school they use (what he considered to be) a more "nonviolent" discipline method? The fact that he thinks people have to "tell the school" what discipline method they use suggests some prior experience in which a family's disciplinary methods were reported to school authorities. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissa in Australia Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 (edited) 4 hours ago, Farrar said: Years ago I remember someone I knew was big into pressure points with kids when they were spinning out of control. She used to do something when her kid was... misbehaving is the wrong word, but out of control in that little kid way. I think it was on the hand? I could never decide if it was total woo or if it was working or if it was just that she was paying attention to him and using positive touch that made it work, so it wasn't any better than any other sort of touch and attention. And at first I thought this was going to go that direction. But, um. No. I'm with everyone else. This feels like a crazy asserting dominance type thing. One of my children responded well when young to positive touch to help ground them. It was a very slight tapping with 2 fingers on the inside of the wrist or a gentle stroking of the back . So lightly it was a caress. The child was barely aware that it was happening . It was used for grounding/ promoting self regulation. It wasn't discipline at all but a calming down thing.even more effective if done before child needs to calm down Edited January 23 by Melissa in Australia 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drama Llama Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 4 hours ago, SKL said: It's an interesting idea, but not one I've heard of. I could see it helping a person calm down from a hyper / anxious episode. I think I may try it on myself sometime when I'm feeling panicky over stress. The position, with the head lowered, is one that can absolutely help someone recover from distress. You often see people bending over or lowering their head, when they are distressed and trying to regain control. It increases blood flow to the brain, it reduces field of vision for someone who is overwhelmed, it can be a good thing. There's nothing wrong with suggesting or modeling a position as something to try. If you have personal relationship with someone, like you're their mom or their spouse, and you know that your touch is soothing to them, and they have a history of consenting to your touch, it's fine to add some touch, like a gentle back rub, or my example of stroking my toddler's temples and hair when he was lying on my shoulder and moving towards sleep. But adding non-consensual touch such as guiding or forcing someone into the position, is where the safety and ethical concerns come into play. In school, there shouldn't be any non-consensual touching,. Also, even in a family situation where parents sometimes do use non-consensual touch (e.g. I, personally, have picked up my tantrumming kid and buckled him into a carseat he did not want to be in), this particular form of non-consensual touch, because it involves bending at the waist and pressure on the chest, is not safe. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thatfirstsip Posted January 23 Author Share Posted January 23 It came up because I'd mentioned to them that I do sometimes have trouble feeling confident in relaying my parenting methods to the school (the school has in the past called to note some misbehavior in the kids, and asked what I do to address this at home). The truth is that I often take a riled-up kid with me to sit quietly in a different area of the house for a while, to calm down while out of the presence of other kids they have been conflicting with and then to talk about what happened, etc. The school has seemed unimpressed by this, so I was telling the person in question that I sometimes slant it more toward a time-out sort of punishment when I explain it to the school - which it's not, actually, but whatever. So that's why they suggested I say this other thing to the school, I guess - they don't have kids or interact with k-12 schools, so maybe they really thought this was a vaguely reasonable thing to say, I'm not sure. But it turns out that they weren't proposing it seriously at all, although it seemed real enough that I came here to ask and did a fair amount of research before coming here. Baffling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 31 minutes ago, thatfirstsip said: The truth is that I often take a riled-up kid with me to sit quietly in a different area of the house for a while, to calm down while out of the presence of other kids they have been conflicting with and then to talk about what happened, etc. The school has seemed unimpressed by this, so I was telling the person in question that I sometimes slant it more toward a time-out sort of punishment when I explain it to the school - which it's not, actually, but whatever. In the adoption community, this is often referred to as "time-ins" and highly recommended. Phooey on what the school thinks of it. 😛 If it works, this is about as no-harm, no-foul as you can get. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarita Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 2 hours ago, thatfirstsip said: The truth is that I often take a riled-up kid with me to sit quietly in a different area of the house for a while, to calm down while out of the presence of other kids they have been conflicting with and then to talk about what happened, etc. The school has seemed unimpressed by this, so I was telling the person in question that I sometimes slant it more toward a time-out sort of punishment when I explain it to the school - which it's not, actually, but whatever. I'm really surprised the school didn't understand this method. I mean I don't really know what else to do about a riled-up kid. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katilac Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 21 hours ago, Eos said: I remember kids having to put their heads down on their desks for a minute (usually folding their arm over the top of their heads) following misbehavior but nobody touched them to ensure compliance which sounds horrible to me. I always thought that was the dumbest punishment, because who doesn't want a mini nap in class, lol 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
City Mouse Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 I just happen to watch a video on YouTube last night which was made of police body camera of an arrest. When the suspect was handcuffed but wasn’t being cooperative with the search of their person, the officers did what is described in the original post. Put a hand on the back of the neck and pushed the person down towards the car hood bending at the waist. Once the person stopped struggling, the person was permitted to stand fully for the rest of the search. While I know that police do need techniques such as these, that is definitely a restraint procedure and doesn’t belong in the classroom. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 21 hours ago, Corraleno said: Is it possible that this person assumes most parents physically punish their kids, so was suggesting that parents tell the school they use (what he considered to be) a more "nonviolent" discipline method? The fact that he thinks people have to "tell the school" what discipline method they use suggests some prior experience in which a family's disciplinary methods were reported to school authorities. When my kids were in 1st, I used to feel a lot of judgment, and every time the teacher would tell me something my kid did wrong, her questions and looks made me feel like I needed to prove I was doing something about it at home. I doubt it was because she thought I was abusive; I got the impression she wanted me to beat my kid and make her behave. 😛 It's crazy how parents can feel intimidated by their kids' teachers. The teachers probably aren't even going for that effect. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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