Advice needed for work and a big old rant

[saraha]

I have one day left of the tour season to work. We are open an extra day to host an event that was my idea, but quickly taken over by the site manager (which I am totally fine with). Today was our last official day. As the season closes I need to decide by December if I’m goi g to come back next season. Boss lady has already offered me the job.

I really really enjoyed the job part of my job. I loved giving tours, researching, organizing, every part of the actual job. I get a lot of satisfaction from the actual job part of my work experience. My hesitation is my only coworker/supervisor. He seems like a very nice person but more than a few hours in it doesn’t take long to get his measure. Here is a list of the things that drive me crazy. There isn’t a way to separate the job from all the time I spend with him. Especially on slow days.

He treats me fairly nicely to my face when we are one on one, but when visitors or the site manager are around, he treats me like a child. For example, just yesterday, I am working the cash register and he is sitting very nearby in our little corner that is an office scrolling on his phone. A couple of ladies came in asking about the tours. I start to explain and he literally talks loudly over me from the office without even looking up from his phone. Saying the exact same words I am saying. I know it’s not just me because both ladies look at me with eyebrows up as I just stop talking mid sentence. Or pretty much anytime someone comes back from a tour and tells him I did a good job. He will talk for 5 minutes about how he has been mentoring me all summer (nope) and how I paid close attention to the way he does things and that he knew when he hired me (nope, never met him before my first day) blah blah blah. Many more examples of this behavior.

He doesn’t recognize when I am working on something. If he comes in and I am quietly working on something, he will just start talking. Even if I ignore him, he will just.keep.talking. I tried putting earbuds in, he came in, saw my earbuds, tapped me on the shoulder and then started talking. If I get up to go to the bathroom he will follow me down the hall still talking and then resume as soon as I come out.

He uses anything I do well as a springboard for him to take credit directly or indirectly. Research, projects, ideas for improvements, giving good tours, if I did well he takes credit for that.

He lies. He will tell me things the boss lady supposedly says, then later I will find out that isn’t true. If he doesn’t know the answer to a question, he will make it up. Which embarrassed me greatly during one of my first solo tours and I answered a question that I had heard him answer before and someone else Bon the tour actually corrected me with the true answer. I have caught him at least five times telling a big old explanation about something only to google later and find out he had made it all up. This weekend it was who the first governor of Ohio was. He insisted he was correct when a lady on the tour just ended up googling and proving him wrong.

He is an inflated sense of self. He really feels like he is more important, smarter pretty much everything-er than any other human. He loves to throw his weight around.

He makes up the rules as he goes. One example of this is We are supposed to be open til 5. Our last tour down in the house starts at 4. If we don’t have anyone by 4:15 he will close the center. If someone comes up to look through the visitor at 4:30, he will tell them sorry we are closed. I did bring this one up with boss lady after he turned away a very angry couple who had driven a long way and he would t let them in. She talked to him and for a while he did better, but especially in this last week he has been closing the center early. I got mad and said we’ll if you want to close early that’s fine, but I’m working my time out because I need the money. If he leaves early, I will flip the sign back around and stay open til 5. If he hangs around it stays closed. He does this with all kinds of things

He lies on his time card. If he leaves early, he won’t write his clock out time, and the next day he will fill it in for 5:00 when I’m not there.

The incident where he got mad at boss lady and took the donation money and gave it to me saying it was a tip. 

He conducts personal business on company time. He will go run errands etc while clocked in.

He talks trash about EVERYONE. He runs down our boss, the board, random visitors that take tours, people around town, everyone.

He is one of those people that listens to what you are saying so that he can use it as a jumping off point to talk about himself. We were talking about my kids trick or treating last night and busting out with a mini flash mob dance. As soon as I got done telling the story he tells me how in 1976 he and his friends were the first dancing flash mob.🙄 If a visitor comes from out of town, he always says he’s been to wherever they are from.

He will monopolize a visitors time talking about himself and doesn’t get the subtle clues people employ to try to get away from him.

Two weeks ago we had a big scheduled tour. He was late getting there so I took the tour instead of him. He picks and chooses which tours he wants to do and I get the rest. He usually takes the booked tours (I think it’s because usually big precooked tours leave a generous tip) There were about 20 people on this tour and we were having a great time. When he showed up and saw us out on the tour, he walked down to the house and as we came around the side of the house (tour starts outside) he walked up, waited til I stopped to take a breath and jumped in with “thank you Saraha, I will take the tour from here. Saraha is a new employee here (I had been giving tours for 5 months by myself) and I hope she got you off to a good start. And TOOK OVER my tour. After the tour was over a lady came up to me while they were eating their lunch and said “if you would like me to talk to someone about his behavior, just let me know) I thanked her and said that’s all right but I appreciated the gesture. She said that after I walked back up to the visitor center he spent time talking about how I was new there, still learning the ropes, he was working with me to mold me into a good tour guide and that since I don’t have a degree in history I don’t have the expertise he has so he usually takes the bigger tours. He told the whole group all this before getting on with the tour. I wish I had taken her up on her offer.

The last person who had my position he bounced. She worked the season and when boss lady mentioned bringing her back he said no, he would rather work by himself than with her. Knowing who it was, I figure she stood up to him and called him out on some behavior. The one before that (according to him) came in one day, blew up at him about something she had “misinterpreted “ cussed him out and left. He then went on to say that he wasn’t surprised, she was probably losing her mind, her mother lost her mind not too much older than she is now. He told me this when I first started, I think she just got fed up with him.
 

Taking concerns to boss lady does no good. She hates confrontation and uses him to fight any battles she needs, deal with trades people etc because he loves confrontation. She will not take someone else side over him because she can have him do the tasks she dislikes and she knows how hot headed he is and is afraid to call out his behavior because he will quit in a huff. Plus he is willing to work full time seasonally with no benefits etc so she doesn’t want to lose him.

So, if you read all of this and have advice, thank you! I would love to hear it. If I decide to come back, I have to figure out how to not let this guy get to me. After working there 6 months, I am able to let some stuff slide, but the two I struggle with the most are the condescending way he talks about me, especially while I’m standing there, and the inability to trust him or believe anything that comes out of is mouth.

If I didn’t really enjoy my actual job so much, it would be easy to decide to look for something else, but the hours are good, the pay is all right for the amount of work I have to do, and I actually really enjoy it.

Thanks for letting me decompress  all this!

 

Edited October 30, 2023 by saraha

[Rosie_0801]

I think you should have let the lady in the tour complain to the boss, and I think she should have done so without asking your permission. 

I also think he deserves your best mum voice.

[saraha]

I love you Rosie. I kind of wish I had let her complain too, but I don’t think it would do any good. I thought it might make things worse

[Green Bean]

Nope Nope Nope! Unless he is fired. That is poison.

[Rosie_0801]

What does "make things worse" mean? If you can afford to quit the job, you can put a fly in his ear and walk out whenever you like. It's not as though you owe any loyalty to your boss. She's been clear that hers is to him.

[Innisfree]

You’ve got months of experience now, and probably could get a good reference from the lady who’s in charge. How about taking that experience and applying at another historic house or museum? There must be others around.

[saraha]

I meant make his obnoxious behavior worse. Or he make me a target

[Rosie_0801]

3 minutes ago, saraha said:

I meant make his obnoxious behavior worse. Or he make me a target

If he did that, you could walk out, couldn't you?

[saraha]

11 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

If he did that, you could walk out, couldn't you?

Absolutely, but at the current time, working that job is better than getting a job at McDonald’s. That’s why I’m struggling with deciding whether to stay and if I do, I know I need to change the way I react because it is not possible to change him. 
If I decide not to go back I am going write a very detailed reason why he makes working there so unpleasant.

Edited October 30, 2023 by saraha

[Annie G]

You’re right that it’s not possible for you to change him. Is the site manager the same as boss lady? 
I know your boss doesn’t want to confront him or take your side, but I’d absolutely meet w her and lay out the worst of what you’ve posted above and tell her you really want to come back but you don’t feel valued when he is allowed to treat you the way he does. And ask if YOU did these things would you be allowed to get away with it. It’s a valid discussion to have while you’re deciding whether to come back next season. 

It stinks that he’s ruining a job you enjoy. 

[Bambam]

Even if I love a job but the co-workers are unpleasant, lying, can't be trusted, it impacts my enjoyment of the job.  If the boss won't deal with his issues so you have a reasonable work environment, then it seems a no-win situation to me. 

I'd start looking for another job.  But I might well be inclined to write up all the issues (factual accounts of events), and let the boss know these are a real problem, and unless something changes, I won't be back.  But that would depend upon if I wanted a good letter of reference from her. 

[prairiewindmomma]

I would probably agree to come back next summer….but I would also be looking at short term training programs which would allow you to earn more money and have access to benefits, etc. 

Phlebotomy training is often only 6-8 weeks, and many hospitals will offer paid training for it. You only have to have a high school diploma or a GED to qualify, and in my state it pays $21-29/hour. You can work part time or in flexible hour positions. 

 

[DeainUSA]

Typically, I think a meeting between you and the guy would be the first step.  Then if there's no resolution, a meeting with all 3. If you're leaning towards leaving but want to stay, what do you have to lose?

[math teacher]

I don't think I could work under those conditions. 

[katilac]

I would start looking at other jobs, and I would have absolutely no problem with telling them I plan to come back but then changing my mind if I get a better job. Please don't feel bad about this, because they wouldn't think twice about changing their minds for whatever reason. The boss has no loyalty to you; she knows full well there is a problem and chooses to leave you unprotected. 

Another thing I would consider is telling the boss that you now have enough experience to be an equal worker with this guy, and that you do not need a direct supervisor any more than he does. 

One great thing to do is collect kudos and testimonials from visitors. If you have anything of that nature, get it organized. Ideally, you'd have been doing this all along - thanks for the kind words! It would be so helpful to me if you could send them in an email to me and my boss - but don't hesitate to do it tomorrow, lol. If you kinda-sorta talk to any of the regulars, be bold and reach out on LinkedIn or whatever and ask if they would serve as a reference. 

Most of all, don't think that what you say in December is a binding statement. If they think they can hire someone for less, they will bump you. If they want to do someone a favor by hiring a friend, they will bump you. Unless they are offering you a formal contract (not offer letter), with compensation for you if they break it, then what they say to you about working next season is just words, and what you say in reply is just words as well. 

If this was an organization or a boss that had shown support and loyalty to you, I'd feel differently, but they have not. 

[katilac]

Also consider whether and additional season at this job furthers your prospects elsewhere. Are there companies/jobs where an additional season of experience would really be a positive? I might stick it out if it were furthering a specific goal. 

 I recommend spending tons of time just scrolling through job listings on LinkedIn, seeing what's available and how the parts of the job you love might be transferable. Apply, apply, apply! Don't only apply to things you are a perfect match for, either. Apply to jobs where you don't meet the required experience or every specific skill listed, a lot of job requirements are really wish lists. 

[Grace Hopper]

3 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

I think you should have let the lady in the tour complain to the boss, and I think she should have done so without asking your permission. 

I also think he deserves your best mum voice.

❤️

If you like Boss Lady, I would tell her that you’d love to return next year BUT are reluctant to commit because <forward list of complaints you shared above>. 
I mean if you are speaking the truth and wouldn’t go back to work there next season unless something changes wrt obnoxious lying cheating stealing condescending supervisor, what have you got to lose by calling him out?

Or you could just go in next year resolved to stand your ground and yeah,  what Rosie said about using your Mom Voice on him. Worst case scenario he continues to infuriate you and you quit then. 
 

Or we could all come on your first tour day of the season and look for opportunities to complain to management about him. 😁

 

Seriously, though, are your employment needs going to change with what’s going on in your dh’s situation? Is there a chance you’ll need to earn more, make a household move, that kind of thing? Because you wouldn’t want to burn any bridges that might lead to better meeting your future needs. I don’t mean you tolerate abuse, I just mean be wise about maintaining relationships that may be beneficial should you need a reference in the months to come. 

[saraha]

9 minutes ago, Grace Hopper said:

❤️ 
 

Or we could all come on your first tour day of the season and look for opportunities to complain to management about him. 😁

I choose this option! Over the course of the season, my kids have come up with elaborate revenge plots they say are just waiting for my go. One of my dds was all set to create a fake trip advisor account to leave him bad reviews for closing early, etc

Seriously, though, are your employment needs going to change with what’s going on in your dh’s situation? Is there a chance you’ll need to earn more, make a household move, that kind of thing? Because you wouldn’t want to burn any bridges that might lead to better meeting your future needs. I don’t mean you tolerate abuse, I just mean be wise about maintaining relationships that may be beneficial should you need a reference in the months to come. 
This is a legitimate concern. If the situation we are in now becomes untenable, working there won’t matter, I will have to get a full time job with benefits, which really scares me as we are not in an area where those jobs are in abundance for someone like me. And as this is the only job I have had in years, a good  reference will be really important.

 

 

[Katy]

I’d be a condescending jerk right back to him and openly accuse him of fraud for closing early. If I liked the job. But if that’s not you, look for another job. Maybe one that’s year round. 

[elegantlion]

Speaking as a historian, he's an a$$. It sounds like the only way things will change is if the public complains about this person. Yes, if people want to complain, let them. 

I would agree to return and contemplate over the winter if you really want to. If you do, come loaded with your own practiced scripts to standing up for yourself. If he tries to take over a tour, don't let him. If he tries to interrupt your work, don't look up, hold up your hand for him to stop until you look at him and give him the okay. If he tries to yell from the office, move in between his line of sight and maybe yell back "Oh, I've got it handled, thanks." Then smile. There are subtle ways to be assertive for yourself and your competance rather than submit to this ways. The people I've known like that generally get bufuddled when they are indirectly challenged - as long as you appear kind. 

[saraha]

22 minutes ago, elegantlion said:

Speaking as a historian, he's an a$$. It sounds like the only way things will change is if the public complains about this person. Yes, if people want to complain, let them. 

I would agree to return and contemplate over the winter if you really want to. If you do, come loaded with your own practiced scripts to standing up for yourself. If he tries to take over a tour, don't let him. If he tries to interrupt your work, don't look up, hold up your hand for him to stop until you look at him and give him the okay. If he tries to yell from the office, move in between his line of sight and maybe yell back "Oh, I've got it handled, thanks." Then smile. There are subtle ways to be assertive for yourself and your competance rather than submit to this ways. The people I've known like that generally get bufuddled when they are indirectly challenged - as long as you appear kind. 

Thanks for the suggestions! I should have done this already. At first I was like, well he’s not used to me being here, he did this job by himself last year. Then I was like, I haven’t had a job with any co workers in over 15 years, maybe I’m being too sensitive. Then with the closing I finally spoke up and things changed for a while. Boss lady contacted site manager and she let him know he needed to stay open. Then as I learned more about him from him and my sil who went to school with him, I felt sorry for him and excused some of his behaviors as a product of his growing up. Then I realized he had the power to influence my ability to work there. So I just let it all go. 
If I stay, I really need to do like you said, come up with some if/then scenarios. Since I know the patterns now, I can let slide when his behavior just makes himself look dumb and have a plan for how to respond to the things that directly affect me.

We have one more work day next weekend when we have a day celebrating the close of our 75th season. I’m thinking I might ask boss lady if we could have some time to talk about the job. I know I’ll never know what he has said to her about me, and I only see her for a couple hours a month, but I know he has talked about me because she said something odd about my speech for next Saturday that made me wonder why she would say something like that, as she has never spent any amount of time with me or gone on tour with me. He saw my face when she said it and later dropped into conversation you know, everyone around here knows her, people I’m sure have talked to her about you. Which was an odd thing to say too, unless you are the one talking to her and want cover?

Ugh, I don’t know. Maybe I won’t talk to her about it. Dh says he’s threatened by me because I am good at what I do and people like me, including boss lady I think. But he really does have the power over my employment there. 

 

 

[kbutton]

13 hours ago, Annie G said:

You’re right that it’s not possible for you to change him. Is the site manager the same as boss lady? 
I know your boss doesn’t want to confront him or take your side, but I’d absolutely meet w her and lay out the worst of what you’ve posted above and tell her you really want to come back but you don’t feel valued when he is allowed to treat you the way he does. And ask if YOU did these things would you be allowed to get away with it. It’s a valid discussion to have while you’re deciding whether to come back next season. 

It stinks that he’s ruining a job you enjoy. 

This, but be more forceful. Make sure she know he’s annoying visitors. That speaks. 

35 minutes ago, saraha said:

Thanks for the suggestions! I should have done this already. At first I was like, well he’s not used to me being here, he did this job by himself last year. Then I was like, I haven’t had a job with any co workers in over 15 years, maybe I’m being too sensitive. Then with the closing I finally spoke up and things changed for a while. Boss lady contacted site manager and she let him know he needed to stay open. Then as I learned more about him from him and my sil who went to school with him, I felt sorry for him and excused some of his behaviors as a product of his growing up. Then I realized he had the power to influence my ability to work there. So I just let it all go. 
If I stay, I really need to do like you said, come up with some if/then scenarios. Since I know the patterns now, I can let slide when his behavior just makes himself look dumb and have a plan for how to respond to the things that directly affect me.

We have one more work day next weekend when we have a day celebrating the close of our 75th season. I’m thinking I might ask boss lady if we could have some time to talk about the job. I know I’ll never know what he has said to her about me, and I only see her for a couple hours a month, but I know he has talked about me because she said something odd about my speech for next Saturday that made me wonder why she would say something like that, as she has never spent any amount of time with me or gone on tour with me. He saw my face when she said it and later dropped into conversation you know, everyone around here knows her, people I’m sure have talked to her about you. Which was an odd thing to say too, unless you are the one talking to her and want cover?

Ugh, I don’t know. Maybe I won’t talk to her about it. Dh says he’s threatened by me because I am good at what I do and people like me, including boss lady I think. But he really does have the power over my employment there. 

He’s making a case to get rid of you or make you look bad. You have nothing to lose.

She probably doesn’t realize you don’t know what her odd remarks mean, and I would find out from her what she means and why she’s saying it so that you can set the record straight.

I would get another job. You live in a small town, IIRC, and while at least some people ignore him, he’s probably dumping on you across the board because he knows he could lose his job if people knew all this.

[saraha]

I never thought about that

[kbutton]

I should modify to say that I’d get another job if he’s not dealt with—I would come back if he is not there. I would probably make coming back contingent on in armed with information, and I would be clear about how much I love the job. 

[saraha]

Could I say to boss lady,

I would like to talk about next season. I love this job and I think it shows in my enthusiasm, verbal reviews to supervisor and a glowing google review (I only have one online review that mentions my name specifically although he has probably over 20 over the years that mention him specifically and the rest of reviews online relating to this season mention tour guides/staff generically) and in the ideas and completed projects I’ve submitted, several of my own volition. But I also saw some ways that the center is not being run optimally and would like an opportunity to discuss them, because I think it’s important that you know some of the inconsistencies that happen when you are not present on-site.

[saraha]

Do seasonal jobs like this have end of season meetings to go over how things went? 
Since boss lady is so confrontation shy, would it be better to ask if we do an end of year evaluation or sit down?

[Carol in Cal.]

41 minutes ago, saraha said:

Do seasonal jobs like this have end of season meetings to go over how things went? 
Since boss lady is so confrontation shy, would it be better to ask if we do an end of year evaluation or sit down?

If she is super confrontation shy, she is probably not going to fire that guy.

However, it’s a good idea to make the truth known to her, so that it defangs some of the things that he says.

I heartily agree with the person upthread who said to practice your response to his BS specifics, because you know what they are going to be.  I have done that myself, in dealing with some very difficult people, and it’s a skill that I wish I had cultivated sooner as it is both empowering and sometimes even effective.  

I would suggest looking for another job in the meantime, since you have good skills, good experience, and a desire to work in this field.  You can say yes to coming back next year but still seek another position in parallel—since you don’t have that offer made or accepted yet, this is fully ethical.

[elegantlion]

I agree that she should know the truth, but how to do that can vary. Whatever method, you need to develop a working relationship, a good rapport, with her so that she knows your worth. Whether I would confront, probably not because I don't like confrontation. Instead, what you could do is pinpoint three things you did well and go to her for an end of season chat. Me being a bit of snark might bring up an incident indirectly. Like "Oh, I enjoyed the tours and received wonderful feedback, (other guys name) shouldn't have to jump into my tours next year. I'm not sure why he did that when I'm fully trained." [that's not worded correctly, but something to that effect - where you're not blaming him but noting his behavior]. 

You could ask for feedback for next year - shows a willingness to learn. In that you could clarify that next season, x, y, and z (all incidents from "that guy") should be something you're able to do with* direct supervision.

 

*without direct supervision

Edited October 31, 2023 by elegantlion

[goldberry]

The timecard thing especially I think the boss would want to know about.  Is there anyone who could "catch" him when he closes early, like a customer showing up that could report to management?  Or some other way that could be documented that he closed early?  Then if he fudges the timecard, it would be absolutely normal to report that to management.  So yeah, I guess I would be plotting his demise! I don't think I could overlook the condescending and demeaning behavior for any length of time.

[saraha]

That’s the thing, people catch him all the time, but they are usually people from out of town. We do t have a website except what’s run by the state so there is no way to contact it unless you call the number, and who answers the phone or gets the messages? He does

[Green Bean]

Take your rant above, print it, and give it to your boss along with I will be back if he is gone. 

[Grace Hopper]

6 hours ago, saraha said:

That’s the thing, people catch him all the time, but they are usually people from out of town. We do t have a website except what’s run by the state so there is no way to contact it unless you call the number, and who answers the phone or gets the messages? He does

Yelp reviews? If people come to your site and find it closed when it’s supposed to be open, that’s the kinda thing that would show up on yelp. 

[PeppermintPattie]

On 10/29/2023 at 9:11 PM, saraha said:

 

If you are thinking you'll need a reference from this job, I wouldn't do anything confrontational. It sounds like a really difficult situation, and I don't see how you can win with this guy. He sounds narcissistic. I'd keep my eye on the next job, and just try to get through the end of the season.

[katilac]

One of my dds was all set to create a fake trip advisor account to leave him bad reviews for closing early, etc

I have a trip advisor account, dm the specifics, lol 

(I only have one online review that mentions my name specifically although he has probably over 20 over the years that mention him specifically and the rest of reviews online relating to this season mention tour guides/staff generically)

This is also a service I am willing to provide, and I can speak to your dedication and enthusiasm with genuine honesty. 

[HomeAgain]

My bonus young adult is in a similar quandary at work.  (Hers is about illegal labor practices, though).  I've spelled it out for her before:

1. Quit, notify the labor board, and find a new job.

2. Stand your ground, notify the labor board, get fired, and find a new job.

Either way, staying there under the current conditions is not sustainable, and a new job is on the horizon.  The only option is what to do with the information.

You have a similar decision:

1. Quit, notify the boss why, and find a new job.

2. Stand your ground, things may get uncomfortable and you may get fired, and you find a new job.

Either way, you're not continuing the patterns of destructive behavior from a manager that are holding the company hostage right now.

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, HomeAgain said:

My bonus young adult is in a similar quandary at work.  (Hers is about illegal labor practices, though).  I've spelled it out for her before:

1. Quit, notify the labor board, and find a new job.

2. Stand your ground, notify the labor board, get fired, and find a new job.

Either way, staying there under the current conditions is not sustainable, and a new job is on the horizon.  The only option is what to do with the information.

You have a similar decision:

1. Quit, notify the boss why, and find a new job.

2. Stand your ground, things may get uncomfortable and you may get fired, and you find a new job.

Either way, you're not continuing the patterns of destructive behavior from a manager that are holding the company hostage right now.

And of these, leaving voluntarily is probably the best. Go on your own terms.

[KungFuPanda]

Can you write a letter to Boss? 
 

Dear Boss,

I love this job and want to do it again. However, co-worker’s behaviors (list behaviors; give specific examples) make it very difficult. I want to accept the offer, but I cannot without some assurances that specific behaviors will be addressed and no longer tolerated. Please let me know if this is a possibility and if the offer still stands. 
 

Sincerely, 

Saraha

 

Then see how it plays out because it sounds like you don’t love the job enough to tolerate the overbearing behavior gor another season. 

[cjzimmer1]

If you decide you want to continue, I would sit down with boss and say I had a few situations arise past year that I wasn't quite sure how to handle in the moment.  Could you give me some guidance on them so if it happens again I know how to proceed.  Item 1) Co worker likes to close early when things are slow.  Would you like me to stay by myself to keep the place open until our scheduled closing time or would you prefer I leave when co-worker does? Item 2) etc.

Present it as a hey I'm trying to learn to make sure I do the best job possible rather than it sound like you an attack on co-worker since you know boss is confrontation adverse. Just take 2 or 3 of the biggest points and ask how she wants it done.  It makes her more a "partner" in these difficult situations rather than a referee.