Grade inflation article

[EKS]

This article in the New York Times talks about the problem of grade inflation in high schools.  I can tell you from having taken 35+ undergrad and graduate level courses (roughly equally distributed among the social sciences, humanities, and mathematics) that it is also a huge problem in the universities.  And a low ceiling on the SAT/GRE coupled with test optional admissions policies means that there is no objective means to determine merit.  But worse is the fact that the students themselves are being denied appropriate feedback on their performance, appropriately challenging coursework, or both.

What are your thoughts?

[Innisfree]

This appears to be a problem in DD’s college. There’s an epidemic of students who just don’t seem to care about their GPAs enough to put forth effort in courses outside their major. Professors seem to be getting pressure to pass people regardless of mastery of the subject. Students won’t even take advantage of free tutoring which is available. The whole situation is highly frustrating for the minority who want to learn.

[El...]

I just finished reading The Inequality Machine by Paul Tough, which is about college admissions and has a lot to say about the College Board. He says that the CB has paid for a number of opinion pieces and articles on grade inflation, in order to hype the importance of admissions testing as an equalizer. He says that grade inflation has been consistent across schools, so their argument is untrue. His book has made me more alert to propaganda in the admissions arena.

Your point about students not receiving feedback resonates with me, though.

[LuvToRead]

My DD21 (senior) has mentioned several times about the lack of feedback.  She once failed a paper and when she asked her professor why, her professor said that she was her "teacher not her editor".  She literally had no idea why she failed the paper.  She got an A in the class so it didn't matter in the long run.  Another person (same teacher, different class) got a zero on a paper, and the same thing.  No feedback on a 15 page that received a zero grade.   This was a freshman level English class BTW.  Not a senior level history class where you are expected to know how to write a paper.  (not that freshman shouldn't be expected to write  good paper already but some don't)

[EKS]

39 minutes ago, Innisfree said:

Professors seem to be getting pressure to pass people regardless of mastery of the subject.

It isn't just passing--it is giving As to people who literally don't deserve to pass.  I have personally seen this in the social sciences and the humanities.  And not just one--multiple As to the point were people who shouldn't have graduated from the program actually graduated with honors.  That was in the humanities, and it was infuriating.

12 minutes ago, LuvToRead said:

Another person (same teacher, different class) got a zero on a paper, and the same thing.  No feedback on a 15 page that received a zero grade.

My guess on this one is that the paper was either late, didn't address the prompt, or didn't conform to the style requirements.

Edited October 23, 2023 by EKS

[BusyMom5]

If you think this is CB paying for articles like this, you probably need to go to Teachers Reddit and read post after post from real teachers all across the US who are very worried about the lack of accountability and how they are required to grade- unlimited retakes, minimum 50%, steep curves.  Then go to Professor Reddit and you can see the results.... and college professors being asked to do the same.  

I've had 2 kids do ACT/ PSAT testing for college.  Both scored about what I expected based on their daily school performance.   My 15 year Olds just took the PSAT, and in practice tests they scored exactly as I would have predicted.  I know test anxiety is a thing.  I know lots if kids do better without timed pressure.  I know that content covered is often based on where you live and how the rest of your school is academically.   I know- but I don't think that matters as much as having a close estimate of what materials have been mastered.  By looking at testing,  I know I need to review a lot of basic grammar and do some extra close reading from short articles.  I know the math is good- the few things they didn't know are things not taught yet, but will be this year. 

As a parent, if I'm going to sign my name to a huge Parent Plus loan (I'm not, but if I did), I would want to know if my child had the basic high school material covered.  I'd want to know if they had a low chance of getting As and Bs.  Testing cannot predict personality stuff, like being on time, study habits, etc., but it can help you determine if the student knows math, how to use proper punctuation, reading comprehension,  etc.  It's a tool.  It shouldn't be used as the only measurement,  but it's a very good indicator for lots of parents and students.  If a student hasn't learned the basics of math, they will either need remedial classes (which colleges are cutting out), a tutor, or they just might not pass.  Reading textbooks requires reading comprehension skills, note-taking skills, and an attention span!  Without that, kid will struggle.  Without basic grammar and writing knowledge,  students will not pass classes that require writing assignments- things like Philosophy,  Psychology,  history.  

[LuvToRead]

22 minutes ago, EKS said:

It isn't just passing--it is giving As to people who literally don't deserve to pass.  I have personally seen this in the social sciences and the humanities.  And not just one--multiple As to the point were people who shouldn't have graduated from the program actually graduated with honors.  That was in the humanities, and it was infuriating.

My guess on this one is that the paper was either late, didn't address the prompt, or didn't conform to the style requirements.

I know the student personally and it wasn't late.  He also got an "a" in the class so it was weird because he did well on his other papers.  If he didn't address the prompt, then a simple "you didn't address the prompt" would have been appropriate feedback.  

Edited October 23, 2023 by LuvToRead

[EKS]

1 hour ago, El... said:

He says that grade inflation has been consistent across schools, so their argument is untrue.

If that is his argument, he is an idiot.  When everyone gets an A, it doesn't matter if grade inflation is consistent across schools.  How do you differentiate a truly outstanding student from a more average one?  More importantly, how do you differentiate a student with far-reaching ideas and/or deep understanding of the material from one who merely handed the assignments in on time?  That is truly what we are talking about here.

Unfortunately, the College Board has also bowed to pressure to make it impossible to tell which students are truly outstanding.  With the low ceiling on the SAT (and even lower on the PSAT), getting a high score is more about not making silly errors than it is knowledge of the material and the ability to use that knowledge flexibly.

[EKS]

6 minutes ago, LuvToRead said:

If he didn't address the prompt, then a simple "you didn't address the prompt" would have been appropriate feedback.  

I'm not arguing that the instructor's behavior was appropriate (because it wasn't!), just that a zero score is usually due to specific issues.

[Innisfree]

39 minutes ago, EKS said:

It isn't just passing--it is giving As to people who literally don't deserve to pass.

Sure, but it’s all part of the same issue, isn’t it? Sometimes students deserve an A, sometimes a B-, sometimes an F. If any part of that spread isn’t graded appropriately, it hurts all the students.

[teachermom2834]

My dd is in 10th grade at a Catholic school. The teachers have a lot of freedom in grading policies so it varies widely. The teachers that don’t give a lot of extra credit/allow retakes take so much heat from the parents. I appreciate that my dd has a variety of teachers and styles to deal with so she is prepared for college. It’s nice when she gets extra credit opportunities but I so appreciate her having some honors and AP classes where the grading is more straight forward so she actually has a realistic understanding of grading. 
 

She has had some classes where she had so many 100s for attendance or participation and extra credit that she literally had zeros for missing assignments and still had grades in the high 90s. That seems silly. She had a geometry class that had so many extra credit opportunities that one day she got in the car and said “I got a 115 on my geometry test. I better go see the teacher and make sure I understand all the stuff I messed up.” It’s silly but what about the kid that got a 90 with a ton of extra credit and their parent thinks they are doing great? I’d want to know that my kid actually was missing a lot and that the 90 wasn’t really out of 100.

It is really hard to know how you are really doing when everything comes back 100. 
 

My dh teaches an online cc class and it is obvious these students expect these policies. He gets challenged when he takes off any points at all. Students act like anything less than 100% is failing and get really upset. They also have an expectation of constant retakes. He teaches a lab science and his students expect to be able to get feedback on the labs and resubmit with corrections for full credit. And after quizzes he gets emails that say “I need you to reopen the quiz so I can retake it”. Not even requests just the straight up expectation that you can repeat work until the desired grade. 

[Bootsie]

I taught at one university where students had poor high school preparation and little motivation except "to graduate".  There was a great deal of state pressure for everyone to graduate.  The student never showed up for an exam or turned in his homework--at minimum he should make a D, but probably a C--with which he would be fine.  That's one type of grade inflation (or lowering of standards).  

I have also taught at a university where students are generally bright, engaged, interested, and have a reasonably sound educational background.  But, they have all identified as "A" students.  They ave been told they need straight As to get into the right college and then straight As to get in the right major and then a 4.0 to get the right internship....   They bypass wonderful learning opportunities in fear that they may not get an A.  I have had three in my office in tears this semester, two over a B and one over a B+, and I have had one of my brightest students drop my class after the first exam because of fear that he will not make an A and it will impact law school admissions.  It is another type of grade inflation. As no longer represent outstanding, excellent work and no longer point to the areas where the student shows real strength.  Receiving a B is viewed as a moral failing by these students (and their parents).  

[EKS]

1 minute ago, Innisfree said:

Sure, but it’s all part of the same issue, isn’t it? Sometimes students deserve an A, sometimes a B-, sometimes an F. If any part of that spread isn’t graded appropriately, it hurts all the students.

That's true, but when everyone is jammed up into the A range, it is even worse.  

It's similar to how the average review on Amazon seems to always be between four and five stars.  How can you determine what is good simply by looking at the number of stars?  The answer is that you can't.

3 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

As no longer represent outstanding, excellent work and no longer point to the areas where the student shows real strength.  Receiving a B is viewed as a moral failing by these students (and their parents).

The thing is, you have to do something pretty egregious to get a B these days.  So in a sense, it is like failing (whether it is a moral failing is open to debate!).

[LuvToRead]

29 minutes ago, EKS said:

I'm not arguing that the instructor's behavior was appropriate (because it wasn't!), just that a zero score is usually due to specific issues.

I agree!  He's pretty smart so I think he more shocked than anything.  

[catz]

I have lots of thoughts about this.  This is definitely a bigger issue at wealthier schools where I suspect parents are more likely to stick their nose in

https://www.the74million.org/study-grade-inflation-more-prevalent-at-wealthy-schools-where-parents-have-greater-ability-to-game-the-system/#:~:text=Grade inflation — the phenomenon of,today by the Fordham Institute.

Well before my kids were college age I was at a playdate for my youngest.  The host step daughter's high school report card was on the fridge.  She had all As and one B+ in a class.  Kid attended an urban public with a WIDE range of SES.   I was like, wow great report card you all must be so proud.  Step mom rolled eyes and said, "oh yeah, DH has to call about that B+".  That kid went on to an ivy league school < 5% acceptance.  The DH was on faculty at a major research university.  What an amazing coincidence.  Definitely started to alter my perception of how this game works and definitely colored my decision to continue homeschooling through high school if my kids were willing.  Though we toured and considered high school, my kids had to be invested to want to homeschool high school.

My oldest kid went to a very large public flagship U, he had very high apply anywhere test scores.  Maybe there are some gen ed classes kids like because they are easier than others but grades were TOUGH there in general.  My kid was in a class freshman year which was very much a weeder course for a major.  Very difficult class.  Kids definitely failed and changed major.  And one parent was ALL over the parent board complaining about it when her kid failed.  When this teacher rolled out the red carpet to have office hours, pre-reads of final papers, bribing students with donuts, etc.  My kid learned a TON in that class.  That faculty member does workshops at colleges across the country on his subject area and has written books, curriculum, etc.  

I think it's true grade inflation is an issue.  And I have little doubt this has been made worse by covid.  And it's also true that standardized testing is a cash cow for CB and not necessarily always super meaningful information.  If students were suddenly not successful in college due to test optional policies, colleges would drop that policy very quickly.  The want to let in students who can be successful, fill their institutional needs, and bring the right amount of money through the door.  At least they can view grade point in context with a school profile.  That said, my new college grad basically did a high ceiling 4 hour standardized test for a job he started recently.  Company averages a 1-2% hiring rate.  Most people get dropped after the test.  So that is a skill that can be useful evidently in some settings lol.  And won't be viewed in the context of how fancy your high school is, your parent's income and occupation, etc.

https://news.uchicago.edu/story/test-scores-dont-stack-gpas-predicting-college-success

 

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by catz

[ScoutTN]

1 hour ago, EKS said:

 

My guess on this one is that the paper was either late, didn't address the prompt, or didn't conform to the style requirements.

A reason should still be given.

[EKS]

4 minutes ago, catz said:

If students were suddenly not successful in college due to test optional policies, colleges would drop that policy very quickly.

When you combine grade inflation in colleges and a test optional policy, how do you know how the test optional piece is affecting students' success?

I do know that MIT dropped the test optional thing pretty quickly.  Frankly, every single person attending MIT should have no problem getting a score approaching 800 on the math portion of the SAT.  The math is simply not that difficult.  (And GRE math is even easier!)

4 minutes ago, ScoutTN said:

A reason should still be given.

As I said above, I absolutely agree!

[catz]

11 minutes ago, EKS said:

When you combine grade inflation in colleges and a test optional policy, how do you know how the test optional piece is affecting students' success?

I haven't seen data this is an overwhelming issue in college settings.  But I am more than willing to be convinced.  I mean it certainly seems easier for students to  have a good GPA than back when I graduated from an engineering program.  Are thousands of uprepared engineers being launched out in the world though?  I don't doubt some teachers feel pressured to push through some students.  At both my kids colleges, parents regularly post about kids failing classes, needing tutoring, switching major due to hitting a roadblock with a class, etc as well though.

I will say both my kids dual enrolled at public CCs with wide SES and there were a range of grades in their classes.  They were generally high quality classes with good teachers and did transfer cleanly to the state flagship, etc.  

I think the bigger issue in the US, education is viewed as a commodity by parents and by schools.  Schools care how much money you bring through the door and parents have expectations when they are spending a fortune.  In my dizziest daydreams can I ever imagine a scenario where my parents would have called a school about a high school grade.  

Edited October 23, 2023 by catz

[EKS]

On 10/23/2023 at 9:11 AM, catz said:

I haven't seen data this is an overwhelming issue in college settings.

Probably because they aren't looking in the right place(s).  Colleges differentiate instruction with a range of majors that require a range of preparation and/or intelligence.  One way to see if the test optional thing is affecting the caliber of the student body is to see if there has been a shift in the numbers of people opting for the more/less difficult majors.  It is a known thing that people with higher SAT scores are more likely to attempt difficult majors.  In other words, it isn't only about graduation rates and college grades.  The easier programs are far easier than the more difficult programs.  

On 10/23/2023 at 9:11 AM, catz said:

Are thousands of unprepared engineers being launched out in the world though?

Honestly, this is a good question.  I know that in my son's engineering program (in a reasonably selective engineering school), it seemed to me that there was little grade inflation.  But I don't know about how it is in the wider world.  I would guess that a less prepared engineer would probably end up getting a job that was tangential to engineering rather than the real thing.  My son knows people at his school for whom this was the outcome.

Edited November 27, 2023 by EKS

[rebcoola]

Grade inflaion is definitely not an issue at my kids choice stem school. Literally no one has ever graduated with a 4.0. No extra credit is allowed, late assignements and retests are up to the teachers but they are pretty much all 1/2 credit for late assignements and and an average of the 2 tests for retakes. 

I suppose that may hurt the kids in college admissions when being compared other schools.  It seems like the senior spotlights have a good percentage getting into UW and every couple years someone gets into an ivy. Which seems right for a class of 100

[EKS]

3 minutes ago, rebcoola said:

Grade inflaion is definitely not an issue at my kids choice stem school. Literally no one has ever graduated with a 4.0.

I'm glad to hear that there are schools like this out there!

[rebcoola]

1 minute ago, EKS said:

I'm glad to hear that there are schools like this out there!

Its a really great school the kind that gives you hope in public education.  High standards, reasonable rules, accomdations for differences, lots of hand on learning.

[Faith-manor]

I have witnessed this so much. But the thing is, test optional isn't going to make it worse. From my perspective, a very large % of students who perform well in the math portion of the SAT/ACT still fail miserably in college math. Kids can become quite good at figuring the plausible right answer on a bubble test. Ask them to actually solve that problem by hand and show their work? Not happening. It was always interesting at my youngest's university because though they used test scores for admission consideration, all students still and to take an in house math placement exam with real paper, no calculators, and work the problems show their work. The results tended to be rather shocking. A high percentage of students with impressive SAT/ACT scores were placed in college algebra while their more average and above average scorers were often placed in college trig/precalc or Calc 1. The second group had mastered understanding of the concepts, but just weren't fast enough on the usual tests. But given a very reasonable number and variety if problems to solve, paper, and a more reasonable time frame, they could demonstrate their ability. The sad reality is given a Princeton or Barron's prep book, online prep test, problem of the day, etc. students can become adept at guessing the right answer from the two plausible options and yet not fully understand how to FIND the right answer when faced with doing the work. This is very true I have found of kids from wealthier districts where parents pay for a lot of prep work simultaneously with grade inflation which makes them believe junior is really an Grade A math student instead of a C- student in reality.

His college did the same thing with English. They consider the scores for admission, but then everyone takes the school placement exam which includes essay writing. Our son, A straight B in English learner according to my grading standards placed in advanced composition and literature. He had roommates who had all been tippy top SAT scorers and who had high scores on the SAT essays who ended up in basic composition, and couldn't be placed into a lit class until they passed that comp class. Of course part and parcel of that is that SAT scorers are only given 6minutes or less to read and grade essays, and are told by the company how many of each score they can give, and that all essays that meet the rubric formula for structure, no matter how poorly written, must be given a minimum passing score and usually a lot more than that. So the whole testing game is total bunk.

I consider it part and parcel of the dumbing down of education to nothing more than expensive childcare.

College administrators love it as do trustees. They run education as a business and the more students who fail classes or have to take remedial, is more money in their pockets. When it takes 6-8 years to get a bachelor's degree, they make a boatload from all of those classes taken over and over again. Meanwhile faculty who actually care about education and quality end up utterly demoralized.

[catz]

Oh - totally with the placement testing.  Most/many schools require placement testing, test score or not.  I actually know a couple homeschoolers who spent like a couple years grinding on testing with not a whole lot of other educating going on.  If test scores were super meaningful, they wouldn't double up because the testing costs schools money too.   I'm sure schools don't mind remedial classes from a money making standpoint.  But I also think schools would like students to graduate in 4 years for their stats too.

My very high test score kid placed into trig at college.  And he did take calc.  I honestly think MANY students who need to do math sequences should bump down (I have a math degree).  The pacing and rigor is different at most schools, especially on an engineering/BS track.  He did super well through his math sequence after this start (and he had a math minor at the end).  He had a roommate that placed higher due to AP that struggled and dropped and had to step back anyway.   I do think with a little review he would have placed up without much difficulty, but having a structured review in a college setting served him super well.

I am less concerned about the kind of grade inflation at college level that has a B+ student getting an A- and having some interesting and achievable gen eds across some disciplines when admissions is fairly competitive than the launching un/underprepared kids to the professional world.  I guess there is a reason employers are using testing, licensing, etc.

I think colleges can generally look at school profiles and understand how GPAs tend to roll out at certain schools and view them in context.  Not that I think college admissions is "fair", but I doubt that would hold a kid back in admissions at all.  Congrats to your kid's school @rebcoola, sounds great!  

Edited October 23, 2023 by catz

[fairfarmhand]

34 minutes ago, EKS said:

 

Honestly, this is a good question.  I know that in my son's engineering program (in a reasonably selective engineering school), it seemed to me that there was little grade inflation.  But I don't know about how it is in the wider world.  I would guess that a less prepared engineer would probably end up getting a job that was tangential to engineering than the real thing.  My son knows people at his school for whom this was the outcome.

I wonder how thi s plays out in STEM degrees vs. classes where the grading is more subjective.

As far as engineering, if you want to be licensed, you're going to have to take the PE exam. So the grade inflation there truly does students a deep disservice. 

[fairfarmhand]

All 3 of my dds (in a STEM degree program) have talked about how they feel so sorry for their fellow students in freshman level math classes. These students were straight A students who operated under the assumption that "I'm good at math." Then they get into their first college level math class and they're totally lost. They don't know how to do the work and they have to figure out another major because it's apparent that "I'm good at math" was totally false.

[Sneezyone]

My kids’ high school experiences have taught me a few things. The tippy-top courses are easier as far as grading b/c teachers and parents assume the kids are college bound and NEED great grades. The ‘average’ college-bound courses are tougher grade-wise but students can learn the same amount, if not more, because the delivery is more engaging.

Testing-shmesting. There’s not a single national assessment that can accurately measure the hodge-podge of things US students are required to learn that accounts for SES. There’s never been an accurate way to compare.

DD has said many of her peers seem to lack content knowledge, maturity and drive and she has been surprised by how much people in her math class don’t know. She’s cruising at the top of the class (to bolster, again, Malcolm Gladwell’s point re: big fish, small pond).

I think the lack of honest feedback (which applies to all students with desire and aptitude) is the biggest problem.

[Dmmetler]

15 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

I wonder how thi s plays out in STEM degrees vs. classes where the grading is more subjective.

As far as engineering, if you want to be licensed, you're going to have to take the PE exam. So the grade inflation there truly does students a deep disservice. 

I think that programs with professional exams will tend to avoid grade inflation in favor of classes that weed students out before they get too far in. My dad says that one reason why Organic Chem hits so many kids like a brick wall is that it's the gateway to med school. So, for kids who placed out of gen chem due to AP exams, it's often the first hard class they've ever taken. Add that it requires 3D visualization skills that don't develop until the late teens/early 20's, and a lot of kids end up deciding they're not STEM majors due to O Chem-but if they get past that hurdle, often things really start coming together for them. 

 

Similarly, I haven't seen much of any grade inflation in music theory. Because it's used as much to weed out the "I liked being in my school band, so I think I'll major in music" kids who were the star of their school band, but haven't had near the training or background needed to be successful in the field. The grade average for music theory at the schools I've been involved with goes up each semester and it's because you lose a LOT of kids at each step-but at the end of the 4th semester, almost everyone will complete the degree.

[Sneezyone]

32 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

All 3 of my dds (in a STEM degree program) have talked about how they feel so sorry for their fellow students in freshman level math classes. These students were straight A students who operated under the assumption that "I'm good at math." Then they get into their first college level math class and they're totally lost. They don't know how to do the work and they have to figure out another major because it's apparent that "I'm good at math" was totally false.

I don’t think it’s false but that students don’t know what they don’t know. The lack of any singular standard for content knowledge or mastery makes it impossible to know what you’ve missed or what you should do to remediate.

To Dmmetler’s point, I’ve heard over the years, how many folks here don’t have access to robust, standardized/tested music education. We have that here. Theory is part of the assessment for budding musicians. DS is arranging music as a sophomore b/c it’s expected (and required of upper class students). DH and I are routinely surprised by the level of work they do.

[fairfarmhand]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

I don’t think it’s false but that students don’t know what they don’t know. The lack of any singular standard for content knowledge or mastery makes it impossible to know what you’ve missed or what you should do to remediate.

 

Exactly! It's such a disservice to those students to give them the impression that they're doing well, and then they get to college and have to reevaluate everything. So unfair! Teachers are not doing them any favors. (I realize the teachers are often doing this because of pressure from admin and parents.)

[catz]

59 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

Similarly, I haven't seen much of any grade inflation in music theory.

This is the weeder class my kid took.  His freshman theory courses were so crazy..  He had to write 7 page papers about a few lines of music analyzing them technically lol.  He was one out of like 4 A's in a cohort of 60 students, lots of weed outs and major changes as a result of that class sequence.  Music majors have a rigorous path!

My 2nd kid is doing freshman theory right now.  What was AWESOME about her program is they had a free online summer class/review available as set up for theory one.  It was a full fledged class with a teacher, tests, took many hours over a number of weeks, etc.  She just took her theory 1 midterm and she got a 90.  This is a new school/program for us so I had no frame of reference.  And then she regaled me with how some students she knows got 50's-60's on the midterm.  Also sounds like a weeder set up!

Edited October 23, 2023 by catz

[Pawz4me]

44 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

All 3 of my dds (in a STEM degree program) have talked about how they feel so sorry for their fellow students in freshman level math classes. These students were straight A students who operated under the assumption that "I'm good at math." Then they get into their first college level math class and they're totally lost. They don't know how to do the work and they have to figure out another major because it's apparent that "I'm good at math" was totally false.

To add a bit of historical spin, my brother went to a very well regarded public university and majored in engineering (I'm intentionally omitting the specific type of engineering for privacy). His math SAT score was near perfect. This was back in the early 1980's. A few weeks after he started I distinctly remember him saying (essentially) "I thought I was getting a good math education, but . . . OMG."

So I don't think it's a new phenomenon, or totally related to grade inflation.

FWIW, he did fine and had a long and very successful engineering career.

[Emba]

My kids are all public schooled now, and once in awhile I despair, because I did not graduate from a challenging high school program, but it was decent and the emphasis was on academics. I graduated salutatorian in a small class and found college classes at a small liberal arts class challenging, but not terrible.  There was definitely a step up in expectations, though.

i can’t believe how unprepared my kids are going to be for college if college hasn’t changed. I learned all high school math: geometry, algebra, trig and pre-calc without a calculator. My kids know how to put in the numbers on a graphing calculator, but not how to think it through and do it on paper.  Geometry was very loosey  goosey as far as graphing anything out by hand went - the teacher didn’t even care if they used a straight edge or not.

 Don’t get me started on writing or Spanish.  The lack of grammar instruction is really sad, as is the lack of requiring simple things like capitalization and spelling.  If you don’t teach English grammar, than I guess teaching verb conjugation in Spanish would  be an exercise v in futility. Maybe that’s why they don’t teach it at all.

 And the endless retaking of tests and redoing assignments for a better grade, teachers who take late papers that their own policies say should be a zero already. 

i have to be hands off. If I go down there griping at the school, it accomplishes nothing. Ask me how I know.  I’ve let teachers know that I’m fine with my child flunking if they aren’t putting the effort I’m. They need to be accountable. But I think college will be an eye opening experience for them.

[Katy]

1 hour ago, fairfarmhand said:

All 3 of my dds (in a STEM degree program) have talked about how they feel so sorry for their fellow students in freshman level math classes. These students were straight A students who operated under the assumption that "I'm good at math." Then they get into their first college level math class and they're totally lost. They don't know how to do the work and they have to figure out another major because it's apparent that "I'm good at math" was totally false.

This was also the motivation for the guy who created the AOPS curriculum. He gave a speech that he later published online that discussed how many students thought they were good at math in high school but when they got their first calculus exam (3 questions, 6 pages given to solve them over 3 hours), they didn't have the first idea how to approach a relatively easy question that took an hour of work to solve. I remember reading the speech to DH in bed one night years ago and he (former engineer now in data) was practically leaping up to cheer like he did that time at a football game and his favorite team unexpectedly beat the #3 team in the country.

[EKS]

1 hour ago, fairfarmhand said:

I wonder how thi s plays out in STEM degrees vs. classes where the grading is more subjective.

My father (who was a STEM professor at UCLA until 1998) tells me that even back then it was a known thing that the vast majority of Phi Beta Kappa members were in the social sciences and humanities because it was almost impossible to maintain a 4.0 in the STEM fields.

[EKS]

50 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

His math SAT score was near perfect.

Back then this actually meant something in that the ceiling was much higher.  That said, the actual content knowledge required was just Algebra 1 and geometry; it was what you were able to do with that knowledge that was being tested at the upper end.  A really bright student without much of a math background could ace the test and not be ready for college math.

With regard to this, my father (mentioned above) has also told me that it was well known that students who had taken calculus in high school and gotten AP credit for it very often had abysmal algebra skills.  This would have been in the 80s and 90s.  So this has been a problem for a very long time.

[Faith-manor]

29 minutes ago, EKS said:

Back then this actually meant something in that the ceiling was much higher.  That said, the actual content knowledge required was just Algebra 1 and geometry; it was what you were able to do with that knowledge that was being tested at the upper end.  A really bright student without much of a math background could ace the test and not be ready for college math.

With regard to this, my father (mentioned above) has also told me that it was well known that students who had taken calculus in high school and gotten AP credit for it very often had abysmal algebra skills.  This would have been in the 80s and 90s.  So this has been a problem for a very long time.

This is pretty well known. And a lot of that is the approach to teaching the material and the test itself, but also college profs take calc 1 to a whole new level of thinking about it that high school teachers do not since they are bound by the curriculum. So the combo means that it is just in general a bad idea for AP calc to take the place of college calc 1. Our son took high school calc with Mark (bachelors in math and comp sci), and then though he had the credit on his transcript and tested into Calc 2 on his college placement exam, Mark told him to take Calc 1 anyway. Better to have an easy A and new confidence for Calc 2 than shattered self confidence and barely passing Calc 2.

[EKS]

27 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

This is pretty well known.

Yes--it has certainly been discussed here on a number of occasions.  

28 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Mark told him to take Calc 1 anyway.

This is what I had my sons do as well, even though one had taken Calc 1 and 2 at the local CC and the other had done BC at the public school.

But the issue isn't just calculus--it's what comes before it.  I was stunned to encounter people (math majors!) in my calculus classes who didn't know things like the fact that the expression sin(x) does not mean sin times x.  Or they were doing things like saying that (x + y)^2 = x^2 + y^2.  Basic basic stuff, and it happened again and again (this was in 2021).  But I will also say that now that I've gotten into the upper upper division classes, the students seem to be somewhat better, so perhaps the really bad ones were weeded out, if not by calculus then probably by the "intro to proofs" course.

[Shoeless]

2 hours ago, Katy said:

This was also the motivation for the guy who created the AOPS curriculum. He gave a speech that he later published online that discussed how many students thought they were good at math in high school but when they got their first calculus exam (3 questions, 6 pages given to solve them over 3 hours), they didn't have the first idea how to approach a relatively easy question that took an hour of work to solve. I remember reading the speech to DH in bed one night years ago and he (former engineer now in data) was practically leaping up to cheer like he did that time at a football game and his favorite team unexpectedly beat the #3 team in the country.

I was just about to post that talk from Richard Rusczyk. He gave the talk almost 10 years ago, so this is not a new problem, either. 

[Shoeless]

Coincidentally, I was reading an article last night about American education standards and how it relates to textbooks. It is probably preaching to the choir, but then TL/DR is that textbooks are written at a 7/8th grade level and the first two years of college at many schools are to remediate what was not taught in high school. 

Is American Education a Colossal Failure?

[Cecropia]

2 hours ago, Katy said:

This was also the motivation for the guy who created the AOPS curriculum. He gave a speech that he later published online that discussed how many students thought they were good at math in high school but when they got their first calculus exam (3 questions, 6 pages given to solve them over 3 hours), they didn't have the first idea how to approach a relatively easy question that took an hour of work to solve. I remember reading the speech to DH in bed one night years ago and he (former engineer now in data) was practically leaping up to cheer like he did that time at a football game and his favorite team unexpectedly beat the #3 team in the country.

 

10 minutes ago, Shoeless said:

I was just about to post that talk from Richard Rusczyk. He gave the talk almost 10 years ago, so this is not a new problem, either. 

I've been looking through the thread and hope I haven't missed it, but can someone please post the link to this?

[Shoeless]

4 minutes ago, Cecropia said:

 

I've been looking through the thread and hope I haven't missed it, but can someone please post the link to this?

I think this is it. It's long, over an hour. 

2014 Richard Rusczyk

[Mom_to3]

There now appears to be pressure in some STEM fields to make the introductory college courses which traditionally served to weed out students more welcoming to a wider range of students with more diverse backgrounds. Of course, once these introductory courses are changed, the students then encounter difficulties in the courses down the line, with pressure to make those courses more accessible. I don't know how his will be resolved.

[lewelma]

This is so interesting because it is not happening in NZ.

1) There is no grade inflation in high school, with the distribution of national exams as approximately 25% fail, 45%C, 20% B and 10% A. All students (regular, honors, AP equivalent) take the same exact final exam. 

2) There is no competition to get into university. If you pass four 12th grade exams with a C you are in to any university here (although engineering school has a higher requirement). 

3)There is no grade inflation in university. For my ds's first year statistics class, they were told that 30% of them would fail. This was also true for his chemistry class.  Most classes have an average of about 60%, and an 'A' is 80%.

4) They do not worry about retention here. If you can't cut it, then you drop out and go do something else. 

Very different system. It has its own problems of course. 

[Katy]

1 hour ago, Shoeless said:

I think this is it. It's long, over an hour. 

2014 Richard Rusczyk

This isn’t the same speech I read, it’s longer, broader, and more tailored to the audience. But it’s still worth a listen. 

[Miss Tick]

11 minutes ago, Katy said:

This isn’t the same speech I read, it’s longer, broader, and more tailored to the audience. But it’s still worth a listen. 

Maybe you read his article, Don't Fall Into the Calculus Trap.

[Katy]

6 minutes ago, Miss Tick said:

Maybe you read his article, Don't Fall Into the Calculus Trap.

This seems like a much newer, slicker version. I think the old one was to primarily parents of boys at a math competition and not as slick. I’m sure I got it because someone posted it here, but it was probably 10 years ago. 

[Shoeless]

32 minutes ago, Katy said:

This isn’t the same speech I read, it’s longer, broader, and more tailored to the audience. But it’s still worth a listen. 

What resonated for me I this talk was his comment on test, AP classes. He said he'd seen kids with great scores, AP this and that, excellent gpa.  They get to Princeton and for the first time ever, see problems they have NO idea how to solve. They don't know what to do and bomb, and Princeton is not where you want to make the realization that you really don't know what you're doing.

The kids are great at memorization and can plug and chug, but can't problem solve.  They memorize and dump for the next test, wash, rinse, repeat for all of high school.

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Shoeless

[Murphy101]

10 hours ago, EKS said:

This article in the New York Times talks about the problem of grade inflation in high schools.  I can tell you from having taken 35+ undergrad and graduate level courses (roughly equally distributed among the social sciences, humanities, and mathematics) that it is also a huge problem in the universities.  And a low ceiling on the SAT/GRE coupled with test optional admissions policies means that there is no objective means to determine merit.  But worse is the fact that the students themselves are being denied appropriate feedback on their performance, appropriately challenging coursework, or both.

What are your thoughts?

🤷‍♀️ I agree with you. But alas no is asking me and there’s even less interest in developing decent standards.  So yak yak yak and nothing changes for another 30-50ish years. 

[Katy]

4 minutes ago, Shoeless said:

What resonated for me I this talk was his comment on test, AP classes. He said he'd seen kids with great scores, AP this and that, excellent gpa.  They get to Princeton and for the first time ever, see problems they have NO idea how to solve. They don't know what to do and bomb, and Princeton is not where you want to make the realization that you really don't know what you're doing.

The kids are great at memorization and can plug and chug, but can't problem solve.  They memorize and dump for the next test, wash, rinse, repeat for all of high school.

 

Oh yeah, that was totally me. I had excellent math grades, two years accelerated, and standardized test scores. Had to drop calc 1 & take remedial math in freshman year. Though part of that was my graphing calculator math classes vs a college class where they weren’t allowed. I went to the tutoring center and did okay with the homework, but I did not have the skills for the 3 hour midterm. That term was really eye-opening. I also forgot about and half-assed a paper for a literature class. I think ir was on Things Fall Apart, a book that disgusted me. I know that paper would have gotten me a B at most in high school. I got a 97, the highest grade in the class, for a paper that I spent less than an hour writing. College is weird. My math tutor spent about 60 hours on that paper and got a C.