lewelma Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 (edited) Is anyone awake? I'm pretty upset. 1.1 million people to evacuate in 24 hours. They are all going to die, aren't they. Edited October 13, 2023 by lewelma 1 17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bookbard Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 I'm awake. It's unbearable. I am hoping something will happen . . . as far as I know the UN gaza staff are still there . . . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted October 13, 2023 Author Share Posted October 13, 2023 (edited) How is it possible to move that many people? If they pick up and walk, there will be no food and water to where they go. Half of them are children. Edited October 13, 2023 by lewelma 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kassia Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 I'm awake and just sick about it all. 😞 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted October 13, 2023 Author Share Posted October 13, 2023 It's been a long time since I felt horror. I can usually brush things off, but this is bad. really bad. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
***** Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 🙏🙏 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissa Louise Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 It's horrific, the whole thing. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eos Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 My God, where are they supposed to go? 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissa in Australia Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 😭😭😭 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausmumof3 Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 4 hours ago, bookbard said: I'm awake. It's unbearable. I am hoping something will happen . . . as far as I know the UN gaza staff are still there . . . https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-13/israeli-military-tells-residents-of-gaza-city-to-evacuate/102975006 According to ABC they have partially relocated south “The United Nations Palestinian refugee agency (UNRWA) said it has relocated its central operations centre and international staff to Gaza's south to protect its staff and continue to offer humanitarian support to Palestinian refugees. "We urge the Israeli authorities to protect all civilians in UNRWA shelters including schools," the agency said on social media platform X.” also. “IDF spokesperson Lieutenant Jonathan Conricus said on X that the Israeli military did not want to target Gazan civilians. He reiterated that Palestinians in Gaza should relocate south of the barricaded strip of land within the next 24 hours. "We understand that this will take time," he said. "It's not an easy process. The aim of this evacuation is simply to save lives." 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lauraw4321 Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 All that I have is prayer. I can only pray and weep. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amira Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 For one comparison about the the feasibility of this process, you might compare New Orleans before Katrina in 2005. There were about half a million people in the city limits and about 1.2 million people in the entire area were under mandated or voluntary evacuation. People who could started to evacuate several days before, and evacuation orders started to be issued at 10am on August 27th outside of the city proper, including a voluntary evacuation in New Orleans. The mandatory evacuation for New Orleans was issued on the 28th at 10 am on the 28th. Katrina made landfall at 6 am on the 29th. We all remember how badly that went, and this was an area with roads to get out to many different places, where many people own cars, and where many people had at least a few resources to help them get out. And too many people in New Orleans had no way to get out. Northern Gaza has 1.1 million people, and 75% of Gazans are already UN-recognized refugees. They have already been dealing with bombings for the last 6 days. Infrastructure in Gaza is very poor. People do not have the resources to deal with daily life, much less pick up yet again and evacuate their families in the face of another war. These are multi-generational refugees. And they are supposed to move to a place where conditions are just as bad and where existing buildings are already too crowded. 1 17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissa in Australia Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 Plus they don't have cars or any means of transport, water, food, medicine and most of them are children. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartstrings Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 I saw that and had the same thought. It’s heartbreaking. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Idalou Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 (edited) It is inhumane. And a war crime. Revenge full of hatred and lack of morals. Disgusting. Heartbreaking. An eye for an eye has never solved anything. Edited October 13, 2023 by Idalou 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissa Louise Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 Agreed. Just as the massacre of Jews was a war crime, full of hatred and lack of morals. Crime on crime. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausmumof3 Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 I’m hesitant to comment because I know I don’t know enough but my feeling is the urgency is the hostage situation. Its reported they have found some of the missing already deceased unfortunately 😞 It seems like a lot of the world has forgotten there are still potentially living hostages being held in Gaza. It looks like they did give an extension to the hospital to allow more time for evacuation after previously telling them they only had two hours left. Hopefully some sanity prevails around these areas. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amira Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 7 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said: I’m hesitant to comment because I know I don’t know enough but my feeling is the urgency is the hostage situation. Its reported they have found some of the missing already deceased unfortunately 😞 It seems like a lot of the world has forgotten there are still potentially living hostages being held in Gaza. It looks like they did give an extension to the hospital to allow more time for evacuation after previously telling them they only had two hours left. Hopefully some sanity prevails around these areas. I am very concerned about the hostages too. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Idalou Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 42 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said: Agreed. Just as the massacre of Jews was a war crime, full of hatred and lack of morals. Crime on crime. Of course. Any decent human can understand both to be true. A person can be pro- both sides of civilians while feeling outraged at the governing bodies. People do not have to pick a side, no matter what the media or leaders and propoganda tell us years after year, war after war, slaughter after slaughter 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terabith Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 For what it’s worth, after 9/11, I was very opposed to us sending in troops to Afghanistan in anything other than extremely targeted strikes after Bin Laden and immediate associates. I have not in any way forgotten the hostages or the absolute horror of the attacks Israel has experienced, and they absolutely do have the right to respond. I just worry about the civilians on both sides- and the so very young soldiers who are not the ones orchestrating this. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Condessa Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 I read yesterday on AP that Egypt refused the U.N.’s request to allow an evacuation corridor into Egypt because it would be better for the “Palestinian cause” for them to stay there. Hamas has told the people not to obey the evacuation order to the south. Those poor, poor people. Nowhere to run, and their own “allies”, their own government, care more about using them as pawns in a cause than they do about their lives. 2 1 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbutton Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 Fact-based discussion of the law of war and what challenges a non-traditional fighting force presents to a nation that commits itself to following the laws of war, led by a former JAG who has been embedded in combat situations. https://thedispatch.com/podcast/advisoryopinions/law-of-war/ 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartstrings Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 1 hour ago, Terabith said: For what it’s worth, after 9/11, I was very opposed to us sending in troops to Afghanistan in anything other than extremely targeted strikes after Bin Laden and immediate associates. I have not in any way forgotten the hostages or the absolute horror of the attacks Israel has experienced, and they absolutely do have the right to respond. I just worry about the civilians on both sides- and the so very young soldiers who are not the ones orchestrating this. If half the population of Gaza is children, that means half of the population was either a small child or not yet born during the last election that empowered Hamas. The last death count I saw numbered 500 children among the Palestinians dead from the bombings. It's a heartbreaking situation. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not_a_Number Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 1 hour ago, Condessa said: I read yesterday on AP that Egypt refused the U.N.’s request to allow an evacuation corridor into Egypt because it would be better for the “Palestinian cause” for them to stay there. Hamas has told the people not to obey the evacuation order to the south. Those poor, poor people. Nowhere to run, and their own “allies”, their own government, care more about using them as pawns in a cause than they do about their lives. If I remember correctly, this isn’t the first time the Palestinians are being used as pawns by people supposedly supporting them. 7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Condessa Posted October 14, 2023 Share Posted October 14, 2023 12 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said: If I remember correctly, this isn’t the first time the Palestinians are being used as pawns by people supposedly supporting them. Over and over and over again. 😭 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissa Louise Posted October 14, 2023 Share Posted October 14, 2023 2 hours ago, Terabith said: For what it’s worth, after 9/11, I was very opposed to us sending in troops to Afghanistan in anything other than extremely targeted strikes after Bin Laden and immediate associates. I have not in any way forgotten the hostages or the absolute horror of the attacks Israel has experienced, and they absolutely do have the right to respond. I just worry about the civilians on both sides- and the so very young soldiers who are not the ones orchestrating this. Yeah, I marched against the Iraq War etc. I have never been to a single pro-Israel rally but plenty of Free Palestine rallies when I was younger. I feel consistent on not wanting to see what is happening now, happen. Civilians should be spared, as much as is humanly possible, from war. This tweet (Canadian author I follow) spoke to me: As I've gotten older, I think on many issues (not all) I want to substitute a 'but' for an 'and'. Not 'Israeli Jews were massacred but this is a war crime'. Instead, 'Israeli Jews were massacred, and the military response of the Netanyahu government risks unacceptable civilian deaths in Gaza.' Let each horror have its tragic weight. without making one carry the denial of the other. 18 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertflower Posted October 14, 2023 Share Posted October 14, 2023 Just fyi, this thread has been reported 3 times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissa in Australia Posted October 14, 2023 Share Posted October 14, 2023 Multiple news reporting that Israel strafed the convoy of women and children evacuating, killing 70 1 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartstrings Posted October 14, 2023 Share Posted October 14, 2023 In the spirit of “look for the helpers” you can find videos on YouTube of Egyptian civilians going to the border to give water to Palestinians. Small gestures of human kindness. 4 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Condessa Posted October 14, 2023 Share Posted October 14, 2023 The deadline given by Israel passed, and they have extended it. https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-67108364 I hoped that they didn’t really plan on enforcing that tight of a timeline. It’s just not possible for that number of people. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lauraw4321 Posted October 14, 2023 Share Posted October 14, 2023 27 minutes ago, Condessa said: The deadline given by Israel passed, and they have extended it. https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-67108364 I hoped that they didn’t really plan on enforcing that tight of a timeline. It’s just not possible for that number of people. I think the extended deadline has now passed. 😭 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Condessa Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 Deadlines are long past, evacuation is still ongoing—I wonder how much longer they have. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausmumof3 Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 3 hours ago, Condessa said: Deadlines are long past, evacuation is still ongoing—I wonder how much longer they have. They have said they have opened a corridor to South Gaza from 10-1pm today. I notice the timeframes are getting shorter. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausmumof3 Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 Also there’s a suggestion that US citizens might be evacuated by sea to Cypress (that makes me worry that things are getting urgent). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Condessa Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 Israel is sharing images they say show Hamas is putting up roadblocks blocking evacuation routes. https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/article-768382 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Condessa Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 They are also saying that they don’t think the evacuation convoy bombing came from the air, with video. (Same link.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Condessa Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 Israel is resuming supply of water to southern Gaza. https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-67108364 Hopefully the beginning of making a safe area. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lauraw4321 Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 I’m think the best take on this I’ve seen is that Palestine should be free…from Hamas. 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausmumof3 Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 14 hours ago, Condessa said: They are also saying that they don’t think the evacuation convoy bombing came from the air, with video. (Same link.) There’s two separate incidents. I watched footage of one and it looks like a smaller explosion from the ground - most people are saying IED? There’s another that seems to have been more damage but there’s no video of the event only before and after. Israel has restored water to southern Gaza to try to encourage people to move there. However there’s no power for pumps so not sure how much it’s helping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravelingChris Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 (edited) 20 hours ago, Condessa said: They are also saying that they don’t think the evacuation convoy bombing came from the air, with video. (Same link.) Yes, it is believed to be IED Edited October 16, 2023 by TravelingChris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravelingChris Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 17 hours ago, lauraw4321 said: I’m think the best take on this I’ve seen is that Palestine should be free…from Hamas. When Israel left Gaza originally originally it was supposed to be the reformed PLO who had renounced terrorism but Hamas literally wiped them out. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Idalou Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 (edited) 20 hours ago, lauraw4321 said: I’m think the best take on this I’ve seen is that Palestine should be free…from Hamas. Before anyone starts objecting to my statement, let me say that perhaps if there was original concern for the right to not live in an occupied land, then this pressure cooker would not be exploding now, and perhaps, just perhaps, there would be no Hamas terrorists in charge There is an excellent book just released about a father amd his son. It's written by an Israeli Jewish journalist. I am only partway through, but have read the long essay he previously wrote about it that can be seen online. More Americans need to be aware of what the daily life is like for Muslims, Jews, and Christians in Israel. https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/oct/12/a-day-in-the-life-of-abed-salama-a-palestine-story-by-nathan-thrall-review Edited October 16, 2023 by Idalou 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Condessa Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 3 hours ago, TravelingChris said: When Israel left Gaza originally originally it was supposed to be the reformed PLO who had renounced terrorism but Hamas literally wiped them out. Hamas won a majority of the votes in the 2006 Palestinian Legislative election. They did wipe out their opposition, but they were democratically elected first. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lauraw4321 Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 1 hour ago, Idalou said: Before anyone starts objecting to my statement, let me say that perhaps if there was original concern for the right to not live in an occupied land, then this pressure cooker would not be exploding now, and perhaps, just perhaps, there would be no Hamas terrorists in charge There is an excellent book just released about a father amd his son. It's written by an Israeli Jewish journalist. I am only partway through, but have read the long essay he previously wrote about it that can be seen online. More Americans need to be aware of what the daily life is like for Muslims, Jews, and Christians in Israel. https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/oct/12/a-day-in-the-life-of-abed-salama-a-palestine-story-by-nathan-thrall-review I support a 2 state solution, 100%. But it's a bit like the dog catching the car. Does the dog really want to catch it? As I understand it, they were quite close to having a 2 state solution in 2005, and it fell apart. It's like the IED blowing up evacuees. I don't think anyone can seriously suggest that was IDF. But it sure helps Hamas for Palestinians and the world to think it was. Hamas thinks Israel shouldn't exist. Both sides have to commit to a two state solution. There really is no other way. How you get to there from here, I have absolutely no idea. But my heart breaks for all of the innocent victims. All human life is precious. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 100% on the "side" of innocent people not being hurt. Hamas 100% knew that its initial actions would lead to Palestinian civilians and soldiers being hurt, and IMO fully intended this to be as ugly as possible for Palestinian civilians. 5 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Condessa Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 Maybe someone here can help me answer a question. I have been trying to figure out what determines who in Israel is an Israeli Muslim Arab, with all the rights of citizenship, and who is a Palestinian without citizenship rights in Israel? There are close to 2 million Arab Israelis and almost 5 million Palestinians in the region, who mostly share the same ancestry. I did find a reference that said that in the 1947-1948 war, hundreds of thousands of Palestinians chose to leave ahead of impending trouble and in a protest against the U.N.’s partition of their territory and refusal to live in the Jewish state they were trying to establish there. Is that it, that the descendants of those who chose to stay in the U.N. designated Jewish state territory became full citizens, and the descendants of those who didn’t did not? Is there more to it? Is there any way for a Palestinian who wants to live in peace and freedom with their neighbors to become an Israeli Arab, or are they forever punished for the choices of their grandparents? I know that the resolve to never acknowledge Israel as a sovereign state is pretty universal among Palestinians, but I would think that among 5 million people there must be some who would be willing. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amira Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 (edited) Most Israeli Arabs/Palestinian Israelis (there can be quite a bit of disagreement about what to call this population, and these are not the only two terms) are descendants of the about 150,000 Palestinians who did not flee from what would become the state of Israel in 1948. There were about 800,000 other Palestinians who did flee. Many of their descendants are still UN-recognized refugees, mostly living in Gaza (administered by Egypt after 1948 but now part of Israel) and the West Bank (administered by Jordan after 1948 but also part of Israel now), plus Lebanon and Jordan. Some left before the partition plan was supposed to be implemented, but most fled as refugees after the creation of the state of Israel. Israeli Arabs/Palestinian Israelis are mostly Muslim, but there is a significant Christian minority and also a Druze population. A significant hurdle to Palestinians requesting Israeli citizenship en masse is that Israel would cease to be a demographically Jewish state. There are about 2 million Israeli Arabs/Palestinian Israelis, about 6 million Palestinian refugees, and a total of about 14 million Palestinians worldwide. The Jewish population of Israel is about 8 million. Israel basically does not allow Palestinians to become citizens of the country - even Palestinians married to Israeli Arab citizens cannot get citizenship. Palestinian residents of Jerusalem have a special status and can more easily apply for citizenship, but most do not apply, and of those who do, about 2/3rds are denied. (My opinions about your final paragraph are likely too political for this main board, but as an underlying goal, I think Palestinians should leverage democratic norms to highlight their lack of rights.) Edited October 17, 2023 by Amira 8 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Condessa Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 17 minutes ago, Amira said: Most Israeli Arabs/Palestinian Israelis (there can be quite a bit of disagreement about what to call this population, and these are not the only two terms) are descendants of the about 150,000 Palestinians who did not flee from what would become the state of Israel in 1948. There were about 800,000 other Palestinians who did flee. Most of their descendants are still UN-recognized refugees, mostly living in Gaza (administered by Egypt after 1948 but now part of Israel) and the West Bank (administered by Jordan after 1948 but also part of Israel now), plus Lebanon and Jordan. Some left before the partition plan was supposed to be implemented, but most fled as refugees after the creation of the state of Israel. Israeli Arabs/Palestinian Israelis are mostly Muslim, but there is a significant Christian minority and also a Druze population. A significant hurdle to Palestinians requesting Israeli citizenship en masse is that Israel would cease to be a demographically Jewish state. There are about 2 million Israeli Arabs/Palestinian Israelis, about 6 million Palestinian refugees, and a total of about 14 million Palestinians worldwide. The Jewish population of Israel is about 8 million. Israel basically does not allow Palestinians to become citizens of the country - even Palestinians married to Israeli Arab citizens cannot get citizenship. Palestinian residents of Jerusalem have a special status and can more easily apply for citizenship, but most do not apply, and of those who do, about 2/3rds are denied. (My opinions about your final paragraph are likely too political for this main board, but as an underlying goal, I think Palestinians should leverage democratic norms to highlight their lack of rights.) Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faith-manor Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 I just want to say I am heartbroken. The inhumanity of it all, and so many children makes me weep. I don't know how they endure, and they shouldn't HAVE to endure it. Apart from donating to Doctors Without Borders and other organizations trying to help. It feels hopeless. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not_a_Number Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 At this point, what I hope is that Egypt lets in refugees. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts