.

[Melissa Louise]

6 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Oh, believe me, I know.  It’s not simple at all.  Immigration issues are just hard, and frankly the border states have legitimate complaints because here the rest of the country doesn’t help, and even with people who chose to leave their homes (often for the excellent reason of people trying to kill them), it’s very hard for the first couple of years.  Language issues, cultural issues, economic issues, housing issues… It is a lot, although as areas in which to do social work go, frankly immigration is very encouraging simply because there almost always IS (often very fast) improvement.  Frankly, being an immigrant or a refugee is very, very hard, and you don’t make it to a new country without resources of some kind (economic, social, intellectual, etc). And in this case, radicalization is a legitimate fear as well.  
 

But the US (and other western countries, but I speak about the US because it’s my country and because we have a whole entire mythology built around being a nation of immigrants/ colonizers) is especially egregious in how few people we allow in and how much we actively punish even the people we legally deem meet our almost impossible to meet standards of being in fear of their lives for religious or political reasons.  There’s no way to follow the law and survive without assistance or working for the length of time we require people to not work to maintain their eligibility.  (It’s years before they can get work permits and they can’t ever receive any government assistance.)

 It’s inhumane.  

Yeah, my only point is that the US is n not unusually egregious.

These things are standard in the majority of other Western and non-Western countries.  

[TexasProud]

5 hours ago, Condessa said:

I agree that we (the U.S. in particular and western nations in general) should be inviting in more refugees.  I know that there are worries about terrorists coming in with the refugees, but we already have federal laws and screening processes in place to exclude those who espouse terrorism and to deport any aliens who support terrorism.  I think we should absolutely welcome in any Palestinians who wish to come here and do not support terrorism.  That’s supposed to be part of America’s ideology, give us “your huddled masses yearning to breathe free”.  

The issue is that we cannot handle all of the immigration we have in Texas at the moment AT ALL.  Though I may not have completely agreed with our governor's decision to put immigrants on buses to other places in the country, it has FINALLY resulted in some of the other states and cities understanding just how untenable the current illegal immigration situation is now.  We have absolutely no way to provide for the MASSIVE influx we already have, much less for any additional ones. And I in NO WAY blame those who cross illegally. I do mission work in some of their countries, and they are just looking for a better life.

My point is I don't see how we can invite people, as much as I may like to, until we get a handle on providing for the people that are already in the country.  Many of their lives are only marginally better and some worse than the people who would be coming. 

[popmom]

1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

It goes without saying that Hamas should release all hostages.

It's been remarkable to me that this most basic of demands has seemingly slipped out of the general discourse, though not diplomatic discourse, thankfully.

 

There may be a strategic delay on Hamas’ part.

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, popmom said:

There may be a strategic delay on Hamas’ part.

Oh, I'm sure there is.

I'm.more thinking about how quickly the fact of hostage taking disappeared from - activist - view. 

 

[popmom]

Egypt is currently repairing and paving the road to the Rafah crossing to allow humanitarian aid into Gaza. 

[Amira]

.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Amira

[Melissa Louise]

My feeling on resettling refugees is that it is best done locally, where humanly possible. AU, for example, should be taking Pacific Island climate refugees. It was right that we took both Vietnamese and Chinese refugees/asylum seekers. Our backyard. I

The thing that bugs me about emotional or moral appeals on this issue to ordinary people (and I've made a lot of them in the past) is that ordinary people aren't stupid - they are sensitive to resource allocation and community cohesion. 

It isn't those with the big piece of any national pie who'll be having to share; it's everyone else getting crumbs.

It's easy to moral grandstand from SE privilege  (and yes, I know globally we in the West are all privileged - please tell to the malnourished unhoused many in our own communities). 

 

 

 

[Melissa Louise]

16 minutes ago, Amira said:

I get that it's hard to integrate lots of new people into any country.  But the costs of NOT doing so are worse for worldwide peace and security, and the countries with more resources should bear more of the burden.  But most refugees currently live in countries with fewer resources.

I realize that I've turned this discussion toward refugees more broadly, and that isn't really the point of this specific thread, but trying to figure out what to do about the world's oldest unsettled refugee population is definitely part of this thread.  Overall, Palestinian refugees are not asking to leave the area.  Instead, they want to be safe in their own homes and free to send their children to decent schools and be able to work and to travel more than 5 miles from their homes, which is what most refugees everywhere in the world want. And Israelis want to be safe in their homes and free from terror forever which they absolutely deserve.  But if we continue to treat all of this like a zero sum game - that only Israelis OR Palestinians can be safe, that the only way to destroy Hamas is to also put 2 million innocent people at risk, that refugees and asylum seekers are a threat - then we can never do the hard work to actually make things better because we're operating from fear rather than a shared desire for peace.  Hamas thrives on that fear.

Honestly, 'we' can do.little other than vote, call our political reps etc

None of us here have any impact on resumption of 2 state solutions or whatever.

I guess people with money to spare can send money. 

 

 

[Not_a_Number]

Hamas is the government of Gaza. They’re in charge.

I may have all sorts of issues with how the world is organized, but while governments exist, there are consequences for the many for the actions of the few. And what Hamas did was blatantly an act of war.

[Terabith]

7 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Hamas is the government of Gaza. They’re in charge.

I may have all sorts of issues with how the world is organized, but while governments exist, there are consequences for the many for the actions of the few. And what Hamas did was blatantly an act of war.

Of course!  And that's what makes this an especially tricky problem.  Because it was absolutely an act of war, but while Hamas is the government, it's not like they're the government of a functioning state with free elections and what not.  

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Of course!  And that's what makes this an especially tricky problem.  Because it was absolutely an act of war, but while Hamas is the government, it's not like they're the government of a functioning state with free elections and what not.  

Yeah. Of course, same goes for lots of places. Nor is Putin. 

[popmom]

13 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Of course!  And that's what makes this an especially tricky problem.  Because it was absolutely an act of war, but while Hamas is the government, it's not like they're the government of a functioning state with free elections and what not.  

But it appears that they (Hamas) have the support of the vast majority of Palestinians. I’m not sure what to make of that. 

Edited October 20, 2023 by popmom

[Heartstrings]

12 minutes ago, popmom said:

But it appears that they (Hamas) have the support of the vast majority of Palestinians. I’m not sure what to make of that. 

Do we really know that though?  It seems like polling would be less than accurate in a place that doesn’t even control its own access to water.   

[Heartstrings]

51 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Hamas is the government of Gaza. They’re in charge.

I may have all sorts of issues with how the world is organized, but while governments exist, there are consequences for the many for the actions of the few. And what Hamas did was blatantly an act of war.

This is something I don’t understand.  If Palestinians have their own government, why is Israel in control of so much?  Israel grants the building permits, controls the electricity and the water.  Functionally it seems like Israel is the government.  What exactly does Hamas “run” for the Palestinians, what function does this government serve?   Is it in name only? 

Edited October 21, 2023 by Heartstrings

[Idalou]

24 minutes ago, popmom said:

But it appears that they (Hamas) have the support of the vast majority of Palestinians. I’m not sure what to make of that. 

https://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/81918/does-hamas-have-popular-support-at-home

It would be interesting to know when or if they ever had 'vast majority' support. There has not been an election since 2006. Would there be a difference between support for their actions this week vs support of Hamas running Gaza. People just want to live free with dignity, no matter where on earth they are. 

Edited October 21, 2023 by Idalou

[Not_a_Number]

8 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

This is something I don’t understand.  If Palestinian’s have their own government, why is Israel in control of so much?  Israel grants the building permits, controls the electricity and the water.  Functionally it seems like Israel is the government.  What exactly does Hamas “run” for the Palestinians, what function does this government serve?   Is it in name only? 

There are many functions of government other than building permits and electricity and water. In fact, I believe utility companies aren't even all government-owned in the US . . . 

Edited October 21, 2023 by Not_a_Number

[Heartstrings]

15 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

There are many functions of government other than building permits and electricity and water. In fact, I believe utility companies aren't even all government-owned in the US . . . 

It’s not a matter of ownership.  Canada can’t just turn off our power grid or our water.  Our power grid is our own, administered according to US federal regulation and rules, etc..  No one in Texas asks Mexico for a building permit to build a house.   Columbia doesn’t inspect our imports.   That would all be absurd.     
 

So I guess Hamas is the government in name only then? It serves no actual governmental functions?

Edited October 21, 2023 by Heartstrings

[popmom]

29 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

Do we really know that though?  It seems like polling would be less than accurate in a place that doesn’t even control its own access to water.   

That’s kinda what I meant when I said I don’t know what to make of it. I need to see the source of the polling numbers being reported. But I tend to believe it is somewhat accurate based on all of the celebrating that went on across the world after the initial attacks. 

[Condessa]

1 hour ago, Terabith said:

Of course!  And that's what makes this an especially tricky problem.  Because it was absolutely an act of war, but while Hamas is the government, it's not like they're the government of a functioning state with free elections and what not.  

 

1 hour ago, Heartstrings said:

Do we really know that though?  It seems like polling would be less than accurate in a place that doesn’t even control its own access to water.   

Hamas won free democratic elections in Palestine in 2006 before they were in control.  Polling might be suspect since then, but there is no particular reason to believe that result was false.

[Terabith]

3 minutes ago, Condessa said:

 

Hamas won free democratic elections in Palestine in 2006 before they were in control.  Polling might be suspect since then, but there is no particular reason to believe that result was false.

Right, but 2006 was a long time ago.  I'm not saying there's not continued support.  But it's hard to argue that this is a functioning country.  

[Amira]

.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Amira

[Melissa Louise]

2 hours ago, popmom said:

But it appears that they (Hamas) have the support of the vast majority of Palestinians. I’m not sure what to make of that. 

I haven't seen a poll showing vast majority support for Hamas amongst Palestinians.

I have definitely seen more than one poll showing a majority though - in the 55%+ region.

I did see a recent poll with much higher % in favour of action against Israel etc, which I assume is a function of being at war.

 

 

 

 

[Not_a_Number]

17 minutes ago, Amira said:

I don’t think many Americans would want to be held responsible for the actions of a president they didn’t vote for.

But they would be. That's not how government works, for better and worse. If a president starts a war, the country is at war, no matter whether you voted for them or not. 

[Heartstrings]

7 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

But they would be. That's not how government works, for better and worse. If a president starts a war, the country is at war, no matter whether you voted for them or not. 

But that wouldn’t necessarily mean that everyone supported the war, or supported all of the tactics used in that war.   

Edited October 21, 2023 by Heartstrings

[Not_a_Number]

10 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

But that wouldn’t necessarily mean that everyone supported the war, or supported all of the tactics used in that war.   

No. But if they were in the military, they'd have to fight. And if the country was invaded, they'd suffer. They wouldn't get a vote. 

And in Ukraine, which is a war a lot of us support, I think, men were barred from leaving the country so they could defend it. They didn't get a vote, either. 

People don't get a CHOICE about these things. You could argue that there shouldn't be nations and governments (although I don't think I would), but there are. It's how the world is organized. 

ETA: Anyway, I'm in a bad mood and beating a dead horse as a result. I'll be back tomorrow. 

The world is such a rotten place sometimes, goodness 😕 . 

Edited October 21, 2023 by Not_a_Number

[Frances]

4 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

The thing that bugs me about emotional or moral appeals on this issue to ordinary people (and I've made a lot of them in the past) is that ordinary people aren't stupid - they are sensitive to resource allocation and community cohesion. 

It isn't those with the big piece of any national pie who'll be having to share; it's everyone else getting crumbs.

It's easy to moral grandstand from SE privilege  (and yes, I know globally we in the West are all privileged - please tell to the malnourished unhoused many in our own communities). 

 

 

 

This. My state in the US currently has 140,000 fewer housing units than needed to house the current population. We are in a housing crisis. While our larger cities are pretty diverse and generally welcoming to those from different cultures, any refugees will be competing with those already here and struggling to find affordable housing or even housing at all.

[Ausmumof3]

3 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

This is something I don’t understand.  If Palestinians have their own government, why is Israel in control of so much?  Israel grants the building permits, controls the electricity and the water.  Functionally it seems like Israel is the government.  What exactly does Hamas “run” for the Palestinians, what function does this government serve?   Is it in name only? 

I’m not an expert on this but I think there’s a lot of confusion between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. I don’t think Israel has any say over building in the Gaza Strip, whereas the West Bank is divided into areas that are partly fully administrated by Palestinians and part under joint control. It’s the areas in the West Bank under joint control where Israel withholds building permits. Maybe someone with more knowledge can expand on that. 

[Ausmumof3]

The 55pc poll was after last time there was a rockets/air strikes in 2021 I think. I imagine that tends to solidify support as people tend to become more militants/right wing when there’s conflict going on. I think the last poll was lower (but not quite government over a completely subdued unwilling people lower)

eta some who don’t support Hamas support other militant groups so it’s not all a cut and dried thing either 

Edited October 21, 2023 by Ausmumof3

[popmom]

1 hour ago, Ausmumof3 said:

The 55pc poll was after last time there was a rockets/air strikes in 2021 I think. I imagine that tends to solidify support as people tend to become more militants/right wing when there’s conflict going on. I think the last poll was lower (but not quite government over a completely subdued unwilling people lower)

eta some who don’t support Hamas support other militant groups so it’s not all a cut and dried thing either 

Actually I have read a poll/survey as recent as June or July with numbers slightly higher in support of Hamas. And agree that it’s not cut and dried. It is far more complex than the typical political hack would have us believe. After reading these in-depth surveys, I am more sympathetic to the Palestinian citizens. I am certainly not more sympathetic to Hamas or even the Palestinian Authority after reading these polls, but the average ordinary citizen just trying to live life. 
 

I had seen a number—86% of Palestinians supporting Hamas as a legitimate governing authority. But I can’t find that info anymore, so I’m dubious. 
 

And as you mentioned there are other armed groups getting support. They are mentioned in the surveys. I’m sharing a link with the caveat that I have not researched this organization as to their legitimacy or any inherent bias. If nothing else, it shows the degree of complexity in such a small region. Definitely not cut and dried.
 

https://pcpsr.org/en/node/944

Edited October 21, 2023 by popmom

[Heartstrings]

17 minutes ago, popmom said:

Actually I have read a poll/survey as recent as June or July with numbers slightly higher in support of Hamas. And agree that it’s not cut and dried. It is far more complex than your typical political hack would have us believe. After reading these in-depth surveys, I am more sympathetic to the Palestinian citizens. I am certainly not more sympathetic to Hamas or even the Palestinian Authority after reading these polls, but the average ordinary citizen just trying to live life. 
 

I had seen a number—86% of Palestinians supporting Hamas as a legitimate governing authority. But I can’t find that info anymore, so I’m dubious. 
 

And as you mentioned there are other armed groups getting support. They are mentioned in the surveys. I’m sharing a link with the caveat that I have not researched this organization as to their legitimacy or any inherent bias. If nothing else, it shows the degree of complexity in such a small region. Definitely not cut and dried.
 

https://pcpsr.org/en/node/944

I’m going to dig around your links, but off the top of my head, I’m wondering if the polls gave an option for “any group that isn’t a terroristic organization”, like was the question which of these 3 terrible groups do you prefer and Hamas was favored, or was Hamas favored over other less terroristic options?   Also, how free are people in Gaza to say that they don’t like Hamas, is that a safe option for them to vocalize?  

Edited October 21, 2023 by Heartstrings

[popmom]

51 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I’m going to dig around your links, but off the top of my head, I’m wondering if the polls gave an option for “any group that isn’t a terroristic organization”, like was the question which of these 3 terrible groups do you prefer and Hamas was favored, or was Hamas favored over other less terroristic options?   Also, how free are people in Gaza to say that they don’t like Hamas, is that a safe option for them to vocalize?  

I know exactly what you are talking about. It’s how a lot of political polls here work, and it’s infuriating. That does not seem to be how these survey questions worked. This organization seems more scholarly???? Not sure if that is the correct descriptor, but definitely more scientific than your typical CNN, USA Today type poll. 

Edited October 21, 2023 by popmom

[Amira]

.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Amira

[Not_a_Number]

18 minutes ago, Amira said:

To preface this post, I want to state again that I think the Palestinians should renounce violence and pursue non-violent tactics to show how few rights they have and how few options. This post is in no way a justification or violence or terrorism. I don’t think that physical violence is ever the right choice in any situation.

One of the first things I posted on October 7th was that I thought Palestinians wouldn’t see (either figuratively or literally) how awful Hamas’ actions were.  And that is exactly what has played out, and I think that ties into these broader questions about Palestinian support for Hamas.  Hamas does just enough to both support and control the 2 million people who are in its power in order to use them to further its political goals. From the outside, it looks like the question for Palestinians is “Do you support terrorists or not?”  And when people say they support Hamas, it’s literally true that they are supporting a terrorist organization.  But it’s also true that they are supporting an idea—that someone hasn’t forgotten them.  It is easy to feel forgotten in Gaza. Honestly, when I was in Israel last year, the thing that shocked  and concerned me most was the sharply increased level of despair among Palestinians. If Hamas continues to fill that vacuum, everyone will continue to suffer.

And Palestinians have lived with a lot of violence.  When I was in Gaza in 1997, the women we stayed with talked about how they could be wakened any night with Israeli soldiers in their homes who had entered without a warrant, armed soldiers who scared everyone in the home (this largely ended in 2005, so children in Gaza are much less likely to have experienced this, but most adults experienced this when they were children).  Palestinian homes are regularly destroyed by Israeli authorities.  This is a significant ongoing issue and you can read more about it here.  Child abuse rates are high among Palestinians. Palestinian children, especially in Gaza, deal with significant trauma from witnessing violence, and almost every adult living in Gaza now used to be a child in Gaza.  It’s truly an untenable situation. No one should have to live with violence like that. 

Gaza is not an independent country by any means, and it’s certainly not governed democratically. This article is from 2017, but it helps to explain who controls what in Gaza.   Hamas does not allow for dissent within Gaza and the sealed borders make it more difficult for Fatah to have much influence there. The uncertain legal status of Gaza gives both Hamas and Israel plausible deniability when something goes wrong there.  Hamas leverages that deniability to portray itself as the only group who really cares about Palestinians, and since Palestinians in the territory are physically cut off from the world, it’s easy for Hamas to maintain that lie. 

So yeah, this issue is too complicated to be represented well by a simple poll question.  

I know I harp on the refugee issue a lot, but I truly believe that refugee crises are symptoms of dramatically broken and violent systems, and none more so that this 75-year-long crisis. Getting people into safe situations where they can move forward in positive ways should be a high worldwide priority (preferably through return, or by being welcomed permanently in their host country or through resettlement to a third country if return isn’t possible). This isn’t just to help the refugees themselves, but to make the world safer for everyone.  It is not a coincidence that displacement is a major underlying factor in many of the issues being discussed in the world problems thread. 

Of course it’s an awful, untenable, traumatic situation. But until the violence is actually renounced — and I see NO SIGN of anything of the sort — it’s not solvable. 

[Condessa]

The twenty agreed upon trucks went through—and apparently one of them was filled with coffins instead of food or medicine.  What on earth??!  
 

Is this supposed to be some kind of statement to the world about the fatalities happening in Gaza or something?  I’m just flabbergasted.  This tiny initial offering is allowed through to test out the system.  It will hopefully precede more substantial aid in the future, but right now it’s a drop in the bucket to try to help people hold out long enough until more help can come.  And 5% of the allowed space is given over to coffins?!

[Not_a_Number]

18 minutes ago, Condessa said:

The twenty agreed upon trucks went through—and apparently one of them was filled with coffins instead of food or medicine.  What on earth??!  
 

Is this supposed to be some kind of statement to the world about the fatalities happening in Gaza or something?  I’m just flabbergasted.  This tiny initial offering is allowed through to test out the system.  It will hopefully precede more substantial aid in the future, but right now it’s a drop in the bucket to try to help people hold out long enough until more help can come.  And 5% of the allowed space is given over to coffins?!

That’s a bit strange, yeah. I mean, I can see why they might need them, but I can’t imagine the quantity provided will make a difference anyway… whereas that amount of medicine would.

[elegantlion]

36 minutes ago, Condessa said:

The twenty agreed upon trucks went through—and apparently one of them was filled with coffins instead of food or medicine.  What on earth??!  
 

Is this supposed to be some kind of statement to the world about the fatalities happening in Gaza or something?  I’m just flabbergasted.  This tiny initial offering is allowed through to test out the system.  It will hopefully precede more substantial aid in the future, but right now it’s a drop in the bucket to try to help people hold out long enough until more help can come.  And 5% of the allowed space is given over to coffins?!

Someone with more knowledge might be able to speak better on this, but could it have to do with Islamic burial practices. From the link it states that burial should take place as soon as possible and that embalming is "is performed only if required by law." 

Twenty tucks is a drop in the ocean of need anyway. 

[Amira]

.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Amira

[SKL]

On 10/20/2023 at 4:52 PM, Melissa Louise said:

It goes without saying that Hamas should release all hostages.

It's been remarkable to me that this most basic of demands has seemingly slipped out of the general discourse, though not diplomatic discourse, thankfully.

Not only that but also the near instant mass amnesia about what Hamas did in Israel just weeks ago.  It's like that never happened - Israel just woke up one morning and decided to bomb Palestine for no reason.

[SKL]

On 10/20/2023 at 6:31 PM, Melissa Louise said:

My feeling on resettling refugees is that it is best done locally, where humanly possible. AU, for example, should be taking Pacific Island climate refugees. It was right that we took both Vietnamese and Chinese refugees/asylum seekers. Our backyard. I

The thing that bugs me about emotional or moral appeals on this issue to ordinary people (and I've made a lot of them in the past) is that ordinary people aren't stupid - they are sensitive to resource allocation and community cohesion. 

It isn't those with the big piece of any national pie who'll be having to share; it's everyone else getting crumbs.

It's easy to moral grandstand from SE privilege  (and yes, I know globally we in the West are all privileged - please tell to the malnourished unhoused many in our own communities).

I agree, I'd find it much easier to get behind aid for refugees in a country where the culture is reasonably similar to the refugees' homeland.  Why would they want to be strangers in a place that is so extremely different from everything they know, halfway around the world, from where it will be much harder to return?

I don't know enough to suggest which countries would be best for the refugees to go to.  I hear the PP who explained that certain countries near Israel already have huge numbers of refugees / foreign visitors, and asking them to take more sounds insane.  The whole situation just sucks.

[SKL]

23 hours ago, popmom said:

But it appears that they (Hamas) have the support of the vast majority of Palestinians. I’m not sure what to make of that. 

I'd guess the bad actors control the information flow that influences the vote there.

[Heartstrings]

I would imagine dealing with the dead in a place with no electricity for freezers is going to become a health hazard quickly.   I just can’t begrudge them coffins in that situation. I’m sure what to send was Egypts decision, not the people receiving the aid.  

[Ausmumof3]

What is the electricity situation? Videos seem to still show lights etc running. How much of Gaza’s electricity is Israeli supplied? How much fuel etc do they have reserved? 
 

It’s being claimed UN apparently said they didn’t check the aid trucks (I haven’t seen this from a reliable source).

Who is providing the aid and who is responsible for what’s in there?

Super weird about the coffins. You’d think they’d at least fill the empty space with something else useful? Or maybe they did. Or maybe they were flat packed. What a weird thing.

the words of PSA 120:6-7 keep running through my head for some reason 😞 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Ausmumof3

[Amira]

Here are some of the many Palestinian and Palestinian-Israeli NGOs that are working for peace. Hamas dominates too much of the media about Palestine, but there are many, many Palestinians who want peace and are doing hard work to try to make it happen.

تغيير Taghyeer

Women of the Sun (partners with Women Wage Peace)

A Land for All

Israelis and Palestinians for Peace

Combatants for Peace

A New Dawn in the Negev

Humans without Borders

Together Beyond Words

Umm el-Fahem Art Gallery

Edited October 22, 2023 by Amira

[Melissa in Australia]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-23/gaza-most-miserable-place-israel-fear-tragedy-cannot-go-on/103002648

[popmom]

7 hours ago, Melissa in Australia said:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-23/gaza-most-miserable-place-israel-fear-tragedy-cannot-go-on/103002648

What can be done? Is it too political to say that Hamas needs to be wiped off the face of the earth? Clearly, Palestinians have no options. There is no democratic process to effect change even though at least half of the population (according to the many surveys I read) is fed up with the lack of quality of life, the unemployment, poverty, lack of healthcare, etc, that they currently have. Even when I read stats that say 57% support Hamas. Well, they haven’t exactly been presented with any alternatives! They are highly susceptible to propaganda. Anyone living in such circumstances would be susceptible to that sort of human baseness that we all feel from time to time. 
 

Still, it is NO excuse for the atrocities of the attack by Hamas. I unequivocally support Israel. I am horrified at the unabashed displays of antisemitism I am seeing in the news—everywhere. 😞

Edited October 23, 2023 by popmom

[Frances]

1 hour ago, popmom said:

What can be done? Is it too political to say that Hamas needs to be wiped off the face of the earth? Clearly, Palestinians have no options. There is no democratic process to effect change even though at least half of the population (according to the many surveys I read) is fed up with the lack of quality of life, the unemployment, poverty, lack of healthcare, etc, that they currently have. Even when I read stats that say 57% support Hamas. Well, they haven’t exactly been presented with any alternatives! They are highly susceptible to propaganda. Anyone living in such circumstances would be susceptible to that sort of human baseness that we all feel from time to time. 
 

Still, it is NO excuse for the atrocities of the attack by Hamas. I unequivocally support Israel. I am horrified at the unabashed displays of antisemitism I am seeing in the news—everywhere. 😞

Sadly, I think people can be living normal, relatively happy lives and still be very susceptible to propaganda, as the last several years in the US have so clearly demonstrated. So it’s not surprising at all that those living extremely difficult lives are susceptible. It’s all just so very sad.

[popmom]

18 minutes ago, Frances said:

Sadly, I think people can be living normal, relatively happy lives and still be very susceptible to propaganda, as the last several years in the US have so clearly demonstrated. So it’s not surprising at all that those living extremely difficult lives are susceptible. It’s all just so very sad.

Agree, but there is a difference in the propaganda that we see (vaccines will kill you) vs the propaganda that says that Jews are the equivalent of Satan and are the most despicable, contemptible nation to ever crawl upon the earth. We don’t have greater than 50% of our nation supporting the extermination of an entire people group—encouraged by very vocal groups from across the world celebrating the thought of it based on recent events.

Edited October 23, 2023 by popmom

[Heartstrings]

1 hour ago, popmom said:

Agree, but there is a difference in the propaganda that we see (vaccines will kill you) vs the propaganda that says that Jews are the equivalent of Satan and are the most despicable, contemptible nation to ever crawl upon the earth. We don’t have greater than 50% of our nation supporting the extermination of an entire people group—encouraged by very vocal groups from across the world celebrating the thought of it based on recent events.

We do have whole groups of people who can be worked into a full lather over Starbucks holiday cups, tiny numbers of which commit violence here on the regular, shooting up schools, churches, and Walmarts in a country where they are the majority but have convinced themselves that the mere existence of  “others” is oppressive.  What would happen if they were to *actually* be oppressed in the way that people living in Gaza are?  Many here who see that same kind of propaganda fall for it too, people in very comfortable positions, QAnon anyone? What would that look like if the people here were actually suffering?  

Hatred is horrible, violence is always horrible, but this is a region where the groups have been going at each other for a very long time, both groups have killed many on each side.   Both sides hate each other and have done terrible things to each other.    

[Heartstrings]

Sadly we live in a world were non-violence gets ignored.  I had no idea Palestinians have been trying non violent means of getting themselves out from their current situation, until I heard about it on a program today, am I the only one?   As recently as 2018 they tried a large scale protest that I don’t think I heard much, if anything, about.   
 

https://foreignpolicy.com/2011/05/18/palestines-hidden-history-of-nonviolence-2/

https://carnegieendowment.org/2021/06/10/palestine-s-emerging-national-movement-questions-on-my-mind-pub-84717

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2018/10/gaza-great-march-of-return/

https://www.dailyo.in/amp/news/what-happened-at-the-great-march-of-return-in-2018-when-palestinians-tried-a-peaceful-protest-41892

 

 

[Amira]

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Edited October 23, 2023 by Amira