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[Ausmumof3]

This thread is getting pretty political.

A couple of qs

In the case of a ceasefire, how is Hamas to be prevented from rearming, and regrouping?

How does the world make sure that aid going in like fuel is not diverted to HAMAS organisations?

I’m not saying a ceasefire or aid shouldn’t happen but those seem to be the sticking points. Are there any practical solutions to them?

[Not_a_Number]

4 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

This thread is getting pretty political.

You’re right. I’ll knock it off. My bad.

[Sneezyone]

I think we all have a tendency to simplify things to right/wrong, black/white, good/evil, but this issue doesn’t lend to that bifurcated analysis. The initial, brutal/violent HAMAS attack was an unequivocal wrong. PERIOD. The abuse and violence was wrong. The initial response was justified. Just as after 9/11, when I had reservations about POTUS choices (since vindicated), I hope cooler and more strategic heads rule. No one wins when mutually assured destruction is on the line.

[Heartstrings]

48 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

In the case of a ceasefire, how is Hamas to be prevented from rearming, and regrouping?

I think the problem with this question is that there has to be a cease-fire or an end to active shooting at some point.  It can't be an if it has to be a when.     If we are talking about if then we are talking about something different entirely.  

When there is a cease-fire what keeps Hamas, or the next group that pops up, from rearming?  Honestly? Probably nothing. Being under blockade for more than a decade hasn't worked, they have more and better weapons now than they did before. If they haven't been able to do it til now, they aren't going to be able to do it going forward.  Probably Israel will need to beef up its security.  The IDF has admitted it made mistakes in security, they'll need to figure that out.  I honestly think Hamas didn't expect to be able to get through, I think it's like the dog that caught the car and now doesn't know what to do.  They have no plan. 

The world is going to have to care and get involved and improve conditions to where the people of Gaza don't want or need to be armed, realistically.  Maybe I'm just too much of a Christian but the only hope for peace is going to be radical kindness.  Improving the conditions in Gaza, and figuring out how to give them human rights and treat them with dignity so they aren't oppressed is going to be required to ever get to peace.  Which all seems so very unlikely, no one has the appetite for it right now.  

Edited October 25, 2023 by Heartstrings

[Ausmumof3]

37 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I think the problem with this question is that there has to be a cease-fire or an end to active shooting at some point.  It can't be an if it has to be a when.     If we are talking about if then we are talking about something different entirely.  

When there is a cease-fire what keeps Hamas, or the next group that pops up, from rearming?  Honestly? Probably nothing. Being under blockade for more than a decade hasn't worked, they have more and better weapons now than they did before. If they haven't been able to do it til now, they aren't going to be able to do it going forward.  Probably Israel will need to beef up its security.  The IDF has admitted it made mistakes in security, they'll need to figure that out.  I honestly think Hamas didn't expect to be able to get through, I think it's like the dog that caught the car and now doesn't know what to do.  They have no plan. 

The world is going to have to care and get involved and improve conditions to where the people of Gaza don't want or need to be armed, realistically.  Maybe I'm just too much of a Christian but the only hope for peace is going to be radical kindness.  Improving the conditions in Gaza, and figuring out how to give them human rights and treat them with dignity so they aren't oppressed is going to be required to ever get to peace.  Which all seems so very unlikely, no one has the appetite for it right now.  

I want this to be true but the conflict predates Gaza being in the condition it’s in today. If that was the sole cause of the issue it would be easier to solve. 

[Heartstrings]

28 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I want this to be true but the conflict predates Gaza being in the condition it’s in today. If that was the sole cause of the issue it would be easier to solve. 

It's the only way to start though.  Desperate people will do desperate things. Having Pakistan in its current condition, with the current policies in place, was never going to be a path to peace.  I don't think reducing it to rubble is going to either.   

I don't see how peace works at this point.  Best case is a forever war, as far as I can see it.  Hopefully, one that isn't setting off WW3 as we speak.  I don't want to think about the worst cases.   

Edited October 25, 2023 by Heartstrings

[Melissa Louise]

Terrorists don't commit terror out of desperation though. 

They commit it to further political and/or religious aims, and to satisfy their backers. 

 

[Melissa in Australia]

they might think of themselves as freedom fighters not terrorist ???? I don't know?  the conditions in Gaza have been desperate for a very long time 

[Heartstrings]

2 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

Terrorists don't commit terror out of desperation though. 

They commit it to further political and/or religious aims, and to satisfy their backers. 

 

I believe that’s true of the top guys, but not necessarily the foot soldiers.  It’s a lot easier to radicalize someone who has nothing to lose and no hope for the future than someone who is pretty comfy and whose family is safe.  Add in some propaganda, a sense that nothing will ever change, sense of powerlessness… 

Its certainly not the *only* reason, but it’s an important factor.  Especially when the conditions of Gaza are being imposed on them. 
 

It doesn’t *excuse* terror, but you have to address root causes to have any hope of peace.   Otherwise it’s just endless war.   
 

 

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Heartstrings

[Heartstrings]

38 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

they might think of themselves as freedom fighters not terrorist ???? I don't know?  the conditions in Gaza have been desperate for a very long time 

No one is ever the villain in their own head.  Terrorist vs. freedom fighter is all in which side of the line you are standing, and historically it’s about which side wins.  
 

Of course definitionally Hamas is a terrorist organization, but I highly doubt they see themselves that way.  

Edited October 25, 2023 by Heartstrings

[Melissa Louise]

Freedom fighters?

No.

Heartsick.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[YaelAldrich]

There are monetary payouts for those "freedom fighters" who successfully carry out a terror event.  It goes to the family of the "freedom fighter" if they are "martyred" 🙄

https://emetonline.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Pay4Slay_Fact-Sheet-FINAL.pdf

[ArtHaus]

I wonder if the Palestinians felt as if the Nakba in ‘48 was a “terrorist” attack? Or perhaps the Gaza Massacre? Or maybe when Gaza was bombed last year?

Hamas wouldn’t exist without Israeli occupation. You might want to marinate on that. It was created as an antidote, to Israeli oppression. 

 

 

Apartheid makes me queasy. 

 

 

 

[ArtHaus]

25 minutes ago, YaelAldrich said:

There are monetary payouts for those "freedom fighters" who successfully carry out a terror event.  It goes to the family of the "freedom fighter" if they are "martyred" 🙄

https://emetonline.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Pay4Slay_Fact-Sheet-FINAL.pdf

Oh, like the Freedom Fighters of Israel…the Lehi?

[TravelingChris]

On 10/23/2023 at 4:10 PM, Melissa Louise said:

Honestly, I think there are no sources at the moment which are not attempting to manipulate in one direction or another. Editorial bias is on very clear display everywhere you look.

This 'error' from the NYT, the BBC and other media whose influence rests of a legacy of quality journalism has done irreparable harm, not only to themselves but to the trust readers/listeners/viewers can put in them, or in any media. 

These are bad times. Journalism has been sidelined for the main game of getting those clicks (media as profit making machine) for quite some time, and in periods of world crisis, we see just how lacking we are.

 

And the same outlets  reported that Israel bombed Gazans leaving who were near the crossing to Egypt and there was a photo.  Immediately, non- journalists who had experiences in the Iraq and Afghanistan wars recognized from that photo thatcthe reporting was wrong.  They could telll it was an IED, not missile damage.

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by TravelingChris

[TravelingChris]

On 10/23/2023 at 6:01 AM, Melissa Louise said:

 

It's easy to abhor the horrors inflicted by Hamas, both on Israelis and their own population, support the right of Israel to exist, protest against world-wide hatred of Jews, but also criticize the current Israeli government and their actions (or support Israelis who do), believe in a two state solution where Palestinians can freely govern themselves, think West Bank settlements are illegal, and believe that children and other civilians in Gaza and Israel should be protected from harm.

At no point is antisemitism required, but boy, there seems to be a lot of it about. I don't know how people can't be genuinely shocked by it. I think many believe that if they just substitute the word 'Zionist' for Jew, the antisemitism goes away. It really doesn't.

There's enough dehumanization to go around, that's for sure.

I'm pretty old; I remember many attempts at negotiation a two state solution, all of which failed. It seems an intractable crisis. I believe Palestinians are entitled to their own state but so are Israelis.

There are peacemakers and warmongers on both sides.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In that poll Popmom posted above, the Palestinians don't want a 2 state solution.   They want one state, a Palestinian state, according to that poll. Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran,who funds and directs both of the previous groups plus many others, all reject a two state solution. 

[SKL]

17 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

TY. This is the hardest thing for me. I have old, Jewish friends. I have newer, Arab friends. I see the merit in both sides, tied to my familial experience as the descendant of oppressed people in a land we didn’t ask to be brought to and a land we have every right, at this point, to occupy. It’s complicated. The desire to oversimplify is understandable but misplaced. Thus, I’m just here to listen and learn. I am not, currently, affected but know those who are personally and professionally. I condemn the initial acts of violence and terror…it was/is horrific. What follows is a choice. How much, against whom, for how long…also choices. Invalidating the humanity of anyone is not helpful.

I agree.

Wish more could have been done before the bloodshed, but I'm not an expert in those matters, and it's probably political to say more.

[TravelingChris]

On 10/23/2023 at 5:54 PM, Melissa Louise said:

I'm not going to go looking for the exact number of murdered infants and delve into the world of nit picking over how said infants became murdered/ burned/potentially headless.

Because honestly, I don't want to do that to myself. 

 

This confusion arose about the beheadings from some people's mistakes but not the official spokespeople.  The officials spoke of 40 babies being killed and some were beheaded.  Others were burned and/or shot.  The first people talking were not medical examiners.   Later on, they kept explaining that it wasn't 40 beheaded but 40 dead. Also, that some of the total dead had their bodies mutilated after death, including beheading.  I saw almost all of a beheading of a Thai gardener from one of the kibbutz. (By almost all, I mean I stopped watching before the ax swing actually decapitated  the man )

 

 

 

 

[YaelAldrich]

15 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

This confusion arose about the beheadings from some people's mistakes but not the official spokespeople.  The officials spoke of 40 babies being killed and some were beheaded.  Others were burned and/or shot.  The first people talking were not medical examiners.   Later on, they kept explaining that it wasn't 40 beheaded but 40 dead. Also, that some of the total dead had their bodies mutilated after death, including beheading.  I saw almost all of a beheading of a Thai gardener from one of the kibbutz. (By almost all, I mean I stopped watching before the ax swing actually decapitated  the man )

Please don't watch these kinds of videos.  I trust that you are a kind soul who knows bad things happened and watching these horrific videos won't make you a better person.  

[Condessa]

I heard a program on the radio about the Thai workers in Israel the other day.  At least thirty were killed on the first day and many others were recently brought home by their government.  They interviewed several, and it was pretty heartbreaking to hear their terror and indecision about going back.  They said that these farmers can earn $7 to $8 per week in their home, subsistence level hand-to-mouth living.  Going to work in Israel, where they earn 10 times as much per week, is a way that many use to get their families out of the cycle of poverty.  The cost to get there is around $3,000, and the families will mortgage their Thai farms and go into debt to send a young man to Israel, where several years of the same work will be enough to raise their family's quality of life and opportunities for the future.  

So here are these young, traumatized, terrified men, many of whose families are still in what is tremendous debt for their means in order to get them started on this path, trying to decide whether to go back into danger to dig their families first out of debt and then out of poverty, or to stay home and safe but unable to help their families.

[Melissa Louise]

4 hours ago, ArtHaus said:

I wonder if the Palestinians felt as if the Nakba in ‘48 was a “terrorist” attack? Or perhaps the Gaza Massacre? Or maybe when Gaza was bombed last year?

Hamas wouldn’t exist without Israeli occupation. You might want to marinate on that. It was created as an antidote, to Israeli oppression. 

 

 

Apartheid makes me queasy. 

 

 

 

[deleted by moderator]

[ArtHaus]

6 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

[deleted by moderator]

Melissa, this is called slander.

I have never said the Holocaust didn’t exist, but that what we were taught about it             , for the umpteenth time. There is much awry in the common narrative, which has little to do with me. I have said nothing offensive here today. What is your issue? You are teetering on harassment. Please leave me alone, or conversate.

Since when is animadversion a crime? I am not enslaved to intellectual homogeneity, no more than you.

Should we end Free Speech? 

Do I have to like apartheid? My observations are common, not singular.

Such unjust weights and balances here-

Melissa, sis, stop being a bully and open your eyes. 

Or you could just kick rocks.

ETA: ArtHaus, if you are going to say that, you will have to be more elaborate given what the Middle East is going through currently.  It's a sensitive topic. 

 

 

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by desertflower
hurtful comments

[TravelingChris]

11 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

I believe that’s true of the top guys, but not necessarily the foot soldiers.  It’s a lot easier to radicalize someone who has nothing to lose and no hope for the future than someone who is pretty comfy and whose family is safe.  Add in some propaganda, a sense that nothing will ever change, sense of powerlessness… 

Its certainly not the *only* reason, but it’s an important factor.  Especially when the conditions of Gaza are being imposed on them. 
 

It doesn’t *excuse* terror, but you have to address root causes to have any hope of peace.   Otherwise it’s just endless war.   
 

 

 

Actually, there was a lot of research done after 9/11 about who becomes a terrorist. Root causes were a big topic.  Studies have looked at many groups of terror around the world and terrorist from different times. Most started out thinking like you that terrorists spring up from poor and disadvantage backgrounds and become terrorists.  That turned out not to true- it is not the poor who turn to terrorism- it is the middle and upper classes. 

[TravelingChris]

1 hour ago, YaelAldrich said:

Please don't watch these kinds of videos.  I trust that you are a kind soul who knows bad things happened and watching these horrific videos won't make you a better person.  

I didn't watch the whole thing. Just part, and I am not searching out these videos, and don't need to see the dead babies either.  I saw that video early on and it was posted by a person who was reacting to the disbelief shown by some. 

I actually get much more upset reading or listening to the survivors and  the reporters who are recounting the stories.

[Heartstrings]

58 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

Actually, there was a lot of research done after 9/11 about who becomes a terrorist. Root causes were a big topic.  Studies have looked at many groups of terror around the world and terrorist from different times. Most started out thinking like you that terrorists spring up from poor and disadvantage backgrounds and become terrorists.  That turned out not to true- it is not the poor who turn to terrorism- it is the middle and upper classes. 

I meant to say desperate conditions, I didn’t mean just poverty.  I may have switched to using poverty at some point, which is my fault for being unclear.   I was thinking more about the trauma of living through frequent bombings which are apparently called “mowing the law” which is so dehumanizing, having to go through check points, barely enough food, barely enough water, only intermittent electricity, constant indignities, not being allowed to leave, being forced out of homes, people drug from house in the middle of night, no self determination , no civil rights.   Gaza is more than just poverty stricken, the conditions are terrible and inhumane.   
 

Which of course doesn’t excuse terrorism but also can’t be forgotten.  Separate from the attack on Oct. 6, this is a desperate population that the world largely doesn’t care about.  
 

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Heartstrings

[Melissa Louise]

1 hour ago, ArtHaus said:

Melissa, this is called slander.

I have never said the Holocaust didn’t exist, but that what we were taught about it wasn’t the whole truth,  and is erroneous in many ways, for the umpteenth time. There is much awry in the common narrative, which has little to do with me. I have said nothing offensive here today. What is your issue? You are teetering on harassment. Please leave me alone, or conversate.

Since when is animadversion a crime? I am not enslaved to intellectual homogeneity, no more than you.

Should we end Free Speech? 

Do I have to like apartheid? My observations are common, not singular.

Such unjust weights and balances here-

Melissa, sis, stop being a bully and open your eyes. 

Or you could just kick rocks.

 

 

 

You have denied and minimized the Holocaust on this site in your own words.

Where I'm from, that's a hate crime.

 

 

[Rosie_0801]

13 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

You have denied and minimized the Holocaust on this site in your own words.

Where I'm from, that's a hate crime.

And there's no reason to be discussing it on *this* thread, so don't.

[Ausmumof3]

2 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

I meant to say desperate conditions, I didn’t mean just poverty.  I may have switched to using poverty at some point, which is my fault for being unclear.   I was thinking more about the trauma of living through frequent bombings which are apparently called “mowing the law” which is so dehumanizing, having to go through check points, barely enough food, barely enough water, only intermittent electricity, constant indignities, not being allowed to leave, being forced out of homes, people drug from house in the middle of night, no self determination , no civil rights.   Gaza is more than just poverty stricken, the conditions are terrible and inhumane.   
 

Which of course doesn’t excuse terrorism but also can’t be forgotten.  Separate from the attack on Oct. 6, this is a desperate population that the world largely doesn’t care about.  
 

 

Why do you think there are checkpoints?

[ArtHaus]

3 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

You have denied and minimized the Holocaust on this site in your own words.

Where I'm from, that's a hate crime.

 

 

Meanwhile, Palestinian genocide isn’t  a hate crime? You minimize their experience, yet sensationalize the Holocaust, Israel. O, Hypocrisy. 

Ironically, the fascism that birthed the Holocaust, is the same fascist ideology that has oppressed the Palestinians. How is that double standard missed on anyone here? Are open air prisons a Shangri-La compared to concentration camps? How could a people who were “oppressed” do the same thing to another nation? That is, at least, unjust. How are Israeli’s more righteous than an SS officer? They are literally doing the same thing!

The Golden Rule is the lick!

How do you know that they should, righteously, have that land? Is it because they say so? Scripture and blood lines say other wise. And if you don’t believe in Scripture, wouldn’t that make you circumspect of the Palestinian Occupation, as your metric is purely secular?

Why aren’t the African Jews allowed citizenship in Israel? Their bloodlines are proven Semitic. 

It is like a rotten onion that still has to be peeled.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by ArtHaus

[Rosie_0801]

Time to move this to the politics board.