.

[Melissa Louise]

5 hours ago, popmom said:

What can be done? Is it too political to say that Hamas needs to be wiped off the face of the earth? Clearly, Palestinians have no options. There is no democratic process to effect change even though at least half of the population (according to the many surveys I read) is fed up with the lack of quality of life, the unemployment, poverty, lack of healthcare, etc, that they currently have. Even when I read stats that say 57% support Hamas. Well, they haven’t exactly been presented with any alternatives! They are highly susceptible to propaganda. Anyone living in such circumstances would be susceptible to that sort of human baseness that we all feel from time to time. 
 

Still, it is NO excuse for the atrocities of the attack by Hamas. I unequivocally support Israel. I am horrified at the unabashed displays of antisemitism I am seeing in the news—everywhere. 😞

 

It's easy to abhor the horrors inflicted by Hamas, both on Israelis and their own population, support the right of Israel to exist, protest against world-wide hatred of Jews, but also criticize the current Israeli government and their actions (or support Israelis who do), believe in a two state solution where Palestinians can freely govern themselves, think West Bank settlements are illegal, and believe that children and other civilians in Gaza and Israel should be protected from harm.

At no point is antisemitism required, but boy, there seems to be a lot of it about. I don't know how people can't be genuinely shocked by it. I think many believe that if they just substitute the word 'Zionist' for Jew, the antisemitism goes away. It really doesn't.

There's enough dehumanization to go around, that's for sure.

I'm pretty old; I remember many attempts at negotiation a two state solution, all of which failed. It seems an intractable crisis. I believe Palestinians are entitled to their own state but so are Israelis.

There are peacemakers and warmongers on both sides.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[lauraw4321]

51 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

 

It's easy to abhor the horrors inflicted by Hamas, both on Israelis and their own population, support the right of Israel to exist, protest against world-wide hatred of Jews, but also criticize the current Israeli government and their actions (or support Israelis who do), believe in a two state solution where Palestinians can freely govern themselves, think West Bank settlements are illegal, and believe that children and other civilians in Gaza and Israel should be protected from harm.

At no point is antisemitism required, but boy, there seems to be a lot of it about. I don't know how people can't be genuinely shocked by it. I think many believe that if they just substitute the word 'Zionist' for Jew, the antisemitism goes away. It really doesn't.

There's enough dehumanization to go around, that's for sure.

I'm pretty old; I remember many attempts at negotiation a two state solution, all of which failed. It seems an intractable crisis. I believe Palestinians are entitled to their own state but so are Israelis.

There are peacemakers and warmongers on both sides.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you for putting this so well. You’ve expressed what I’m struggling to say. 

[pinball]

[deleted by moderator and don't bother arguing about it.]

 

PM me if you want to know what was deleted

Edited October 23, 2023 by pinball

[pinball]

PM me if you want to know what was deleted.

[SKL]

On the propaganda topic - I believe the people under Hamas rule are probably experiencing more censorship / brainwashing than we are.  However, even I really don't know what to believe about what's happening there.  I think that unless you have a civilian friend living there with good communication tools, or you own your own spy satellite, you really can't know these days.

The only thing I'm sure of is that Hamas went in knowing and intending that Palestinian civilians would be harmed, probably more than Israeli civilians by the time this bout of killing is over.

[Heartstrings]

24 minutes ago, SKL said:

On the propaganda topic - I believe the people under Hamas rule are probably experiencing more censorship / brainwashing than we are.  However, even I really don't know what to believe about what's happening there.  I think that unless you have a civilian friend living there with good communication tools, or you own your own spy satellite, you really can't know these days.

The only thing I'm sure of is that Hamas went in knowing and intending that Palestinian civilians would be harmed, probably more than Israeli civilians by the time this bout of killing is over.

Several of the American reporters on the ground near Gaza have attempted to set up Tik Tok channels but they are getting taken down really quickly.  There are so many reports of reporters being killed while wearing their Press vests, which is terrible. Al Jazeera has decent coverage, knowing that they do have a slant.  There reporting can usually be verified in American or British papers a few days later.  You can also find Israeli coverage, which of course also has a slant.  It’s hard to be informed when you have to piece things together.  I don’t post much on specifics because I figure no one will agree on sources so I just don’t bother.  
 

The last death count I saw was 3,700 dead in Gaza with many, many more injured and around 1500 dead in Israel, with more injured, all from the first night.  

Edited October 23, 2023 by Heartstrings

[popmom]

6 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

We do have whole groups of people who can be worked into a full lather over Starbucks holiday cups, tiny numbers of which commit violence here on the regular, shooting up schools, churches, and Walmarts in a country where they are the majority but have convinced themselves that the mere existence of  “others” is oppressive.  What would happen if they were to *actually* be oppressed in the way that people living in Gaza are?  Many here who see that same kind of propaganda fall for it too, people in very comfortable positions, QAnon anyone? What would that look like if the people here were actually suffering?  

Hatred is horrible, violence is always horrible, but this is a region where the groups have been going at each other for a very long time, both groups have killed many on each side.   Both sides hate each other and have done terrible things to each other.    

I figured I would get a response similar to this. 
People getting into a “lather” over Starbucks cups or qanon—There is no comparison due to many factors that I won’t go into because it’s off topic. If you think that, then I can’t help but wonder what sort of propaganda you may have unknowingly internalized. 
 

to your last point…I hate that I feel like I’m being condescended to here, but I do. Some of your last point is stating the obvious—especially if you are a Jew or Christian. Although I disagree that that somehow both governments are equally full of hate. Elaborating further would be getting political.

Edited October 23, 2023 by popmom

[Idalou]

UN updates at this site

https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-flash-update-15

If you click on the upper 3 bars you can see the Updates, the one I linked is from 2 days ago. 

There is also a program called DemocracyNow. It most definitely swings left and covers wars and the growing immgrant problems from  all over the world, but provides in depth interviews with people you will rarely, if ever, hear on any MSM. I have gone back to the beginning of Oct 7 or 8 and listened to every show. They've featured Palestinian professors and those with direct experience with life in Gaza,  Jewish journalists and authors, and both Israel and Palestinian spokespeople for peace. Bright, thoughtful discussions without the usual  propoganda. I found it useful to hear what is happening outside of Gaza, in the West Bank. I know they've been losing their homes to Israeli settlements and the clashes due to that, for years, but didn't know about the big increase in violence and death there now.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Idalou

[Heartstrings]

16 minutes ago, popmom said:

gured I would get a response similar to this. 
People getting into a “lather” over Starbucks cups or qanon—There is no comparison due to many factors that I won’t go into because it’s off topic. If you think that, then I can’t help but wonder what sort of propaganda you may have unknowingly internalized. 

My point was that even people in comfortable position in America can be swayed to violence by propaganda, so it seems natural that people in terrible situations would be even more easily swayed.  Of course it’s different for a myriad of reasons, but people are people.   
 

If you don’t think small numbers of people in our country are being moved to violence by different kinds of propaganda than I’m not sure where to go with that.  Shooters often leave behind manifestos and social media screeds telling us exactly why they did their mass act of violence and it’s often weird, racist, anti-semetic gobbledygook that they found online. I’m not sure why that fact would make you think I’m falling victim to propaganda, we talk about it here whenever a shooting comes up.  

Edited October 23, 2023 by Heartstrings

[popmom]

22 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

My point was that even people in comfortable position in America can be swayed to violence by propaganda, so it seems natural that people in terrible situations would be even more easily swayed.  Of course it’s different for a myriad of reasons, but people are people.   
 

If you don’t think small numbers of people in our country are being moved to violence by different kinds of propaganda than I’m not sure where to go with that.  Shooters often leave behind manifestos and social media screeds telling us exactly why they did their mass act of violence and it’s often weird, racist, anti-semetic gobbledygook.  I’m not sure why that fact would make you think I’m falling victim to propaganda, we talk about it here whenever a shooting comes up.  

I’m not denying that there are a few people in our country committing isolated violence due to being swayed by propaganda. So yes, I agree with that. 
 

Propagandists in this country would have us believe that these fringe psychopaths pose an existential threat to our entire country. 
 

Whereas in Palestine the propagandists are Hamas and the existential threat to Israel is real. 
 

I have to get back on the road. Long drive ahead.

Edited October 23, 2023 by popmom

[Idalou]

6 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

My point was that even people in comfortable position in America can be swayed to violence by propaganda, so it seems natural that people in terrible situations would be even more easily swayed.  Of course it’s different for a myriad of reasons, but people are people.   
 

If you don’t think small numbers of people in our country are being moved to violence by different kinds of propaganda than I’m not sure where to go with that.  Shooters often leave behind manifestos and social media screeds telling us exactly why they did their mass act of violence and it’s often weird, racist, anti-semetic gobbledygook that they found online. I’m not sure why that fact would make you think I’m falling victim to propaganda, we talk about it here whenever a shooting comes up.  

I agree. It is not comparable to the violence, but its definitely comparable. The US foments violence, we always have . The outrage machine is a multi million dollar baby here. Israeli officials have become increasingly right wing and are fomenting anger, as Hamas has always done. Did many in MSM show us how thousands of Israelis were protesting daily, before the Hamas attacks, against their own PM and how they say he's dismantling their supreme court system?  Why are we so ignorant about their history, its a country that is clearly important to us.

Israeli officials were already accused the world over of injustice, but you didn't hear much about it here. What type of propoganda have we been fed for years about that? Why don't we remember the early Palestinian leaders and how they pressed for either peace or war. 

So of you're only talking about physical violence, then of course we can't compare to that part of the world. But we too committed acts of violence and torture during the Iraq Afghanistan wars. We promoted sanctions that resulted in hundreds of thousands of innocent deaths. We bombed religious sites and schools and shot journalists. There are large swaths of Americans, and I believe in both parties, that could be swayed to violence. When people love in a pressure cooker violence is a result, and I think our country is quickly becoming one in several ways, too. 

[Idalou]

30 minutes ago, popmom said:

I’m not denying that there are a few people in our country committing isolated violence due to being swayed by propaganda. So yes, I agree with that. 
 

Propagandists in this country would have us believe that these fringe psychopaths pose an existential threat to our entire country. 
 

Whereas in Palestine the propagandists are Hamas and the existential threat to Israel is real. 
 

I have to get back on the road. Long drive ahead.

So you don't believe at all that Israel officials propogandize, too? Honestly? The threat to Israeli and Gaza and the West Bank are all too real.

And when the fringe psychopaths have the ear of our own leaders, yes, they can pose a threat to our country. Not it's physical existence, but most definitely it's democracy. 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Idalou

[Pam in CT]

re homegrown hate, propaganda, and how they funnel to fuel actions here at home... I'm not quoting any particular posts as jumping-off boards for these observations because way upthread when I did so on another jumping-off post, I expressed myself poorly and in so doing failed to make my meaning clear.

 

1. We have our own homegrown hate problem.
2. Our homegrown haters utilize and amplify propaganda that serves them, whatever the origins of that propaganda.
3. Propaganda fuels action. That is its purpose.

 

I live in a mostly pretty moderate state with mostly pretty great people. Compared to ~47 other states mine has had a pretty stable, centrist consensus against violence and expressions of hate, as manifested (forex) in a broadly bipartisan omnibus gun safety legislation that was passed after the Sandy Hook massacre which has held ever since and been slowly added to.; a broad consensus among constituents and legislators with developmentally appropriate classroom instruction about seizure of native land, voter suppression by lynching, Holocaust horror and etc.

The Friday after the initial bombing, which was a festival holiday with a particularly poignant service, my own synagogue, the synagogues in two adjacent towns, and a number * of others in the state, received bomb threats. After a premises search local LE deemed the threats as "non-credible" and some synagogues including ours went ahead with services, though the attack Over There combined with the scare Over Here rather dampened what in other circumstances is a quite joyful festival.

Based on what we know so far, there appears to be no evidence of any sort to any link to any Hamas / Palestinian / Arab connection at all.

It looks to be "just" homegrown white nationalists availing of a moment.  For the kicks and jollies of terrorizing Jews.

 

And -- to me -- that is not better. To me, that is worse.

 

 

 

 

 

 

* I am on my synagogue's BoD; and our local LE did not tell us -- I don't know if they themselves know -- how many total. But they know, from their partners in state LE, that there were threats across the state. My state.

[KSera]

I don’t know which of these threads this is most relevant to, but I just saw The New York Times issued an editorial note against themselves for their initial coverage of the hospital strike in Gaza and acknowledging they should have covered it differently with so much unknown. 

Gifted link: Editors’ Note: Gaza Hospital Coverage

concluding paragraph:

”Given the sensitive nature of the news during a widening conflict, and the prominent promotion it received, Times editors should have taken more care with the initial presentation, and been more explicit about what information could be verified. Newsroom leaders continue to examine procedures around the biggest breaking news events — including for the use of the largest headlines in the digital report — to determine what additional safeguards may be warranted.”

 

[Frances]

5 hours ago, popmom said:

I’m not denying that there are a few people in our country committing isolated violence due to being swayed by propaganda. So yes, I agree with that. 

Propagandists in this country would have us believe that these fringe psychopaths pose an existential threat to our entire country. 

Whereas in Palestine the propagandists are Hamas and the existential threat to Israel is real. 

But propaganda can have devastating effects even if it doesn’t rise to the level of convincing some that an entire group of people needs to be eliminated or result in a mass shooting. Propaganda about a “stolen election” puts our democratic norms and institutions at risk. That’s a very serious threat to the very core of our country. Propaganda about Covid and the vaccines directly led to many deaths here in the US.

[Pam in CT]

re role of propaganda earlier rather than later

31 minutes ago, Frances said:

But propaganda can have devastating effects even if it doesn’t rise to the level of convincing some that an entire group of people needs to be eliminated or result in a mass shooting. ..

Right. The Holocaust didn't start with cattle cars rattling into camps. It started with a charismatic leader blamecasting economic problems onto a group of people he labeled as "vermin" and whipping up what he called "nationalism" against them.

Every other genocide in modern history started similarly: with one group labeling another as animals/ insects/ plague or cancer/ etc. 

Only some of the people are "really" the people.  Or even: people.

 

Whenever I hear such language -- and such language is all too common, and has been markedly more so over the last two weeks, coming from too many directions -- I am gutted.

My tradition does not adhere to the construct of "original sin.: But if there were such a thing, this is what it looks like.  We are human; They are something less than.

 

[Melissa Louise]

I think it's OK to make a distinction between undesirable propaganda (say, that might stop someone getting a vaccine) and abhorrent propaganda (say, that might make someone torture and set alight small children thinking they are doing a Noble Thing).

Otherwise you end up with this ridiculous flattening effect where living under Hamas is functionally the same as living in a democracy where your human rights are (imperfectly) protected.

Or narratives that gloss over just how terrible an organization like Hamas (backed by Iran, home of beating girls into comas for having hair visible on the street) is for its own people.

Meanwhile, as a direct result of the October 7 massacre, thousands of children are dead who were alive mere weeks ago, and more will die. Israeli, Palestinian, each one worth the same and deserving of better than the willfully naive excusing of terrorism as 'punching up'.

 

 

 

 

[Melissa Louise]

4 hours ago, KSera said:

I don’t know which of these threads this is most relevant to, but I just saw The New York Times issued an editorial note against themselves for their initial coverage of the hospital strike in Gaza and acknowledging they should have covered it differently with so much unknown. 

Gifted link: Editors’ Note: Gaza Hospital Coverage

concluding paragraph:

”Given the sensitive nature of the news during a widening conflict, and the prominent promotion it received, Times editors should have taken more care with the initial presentation, and been more explicit about what information could be verified. Newsroom leaders continue to examine procedures around the biggest breaking news events — including for the use of the largest headlines in the digital report — to determine what additional safeguards may be warranted.”

 

Honestly, I think there are no sources at the moment which are not attempting to manipulate in one direction or another. Editorial bias is on very clear display everywhere you look.

This 'error' from the NYT, the BBC and other media whose influence rests of a legacy of quality journalism has done irreparable harm, not only to themselves but to the trust readers/listeners/viewers can put in them, or in any media. 

These are bad times. Journalism has been sidelined for the main game of getting those clicks (media as profit making machine) for quite some time, and in periods of world crisis, we see just how lacking we are.

 

[SKL]

Even "responsible" news outlets reported the false hospital story.

When I saw that story, I immediately said to myself, "I don't know if this is true or not.  I will wait until this story is vetted by responsible vetters."  But, as intended by certain parties, some saw the story and went out and committed violence on innocent people.

It's hard not knowing what the truth is.  So hard.  But humans need to admit that we don't know what we don't know.  It's part of what we like to call "humanity."

[Ausmumof3]

1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

Honestly, I think there are no sources at the moment which are not attempting to manipulate in one direction or another. Editorial bias is on very clear display everywhere you look.

This 'error' from the NYT, the BBC and other media whose influence rests of a legacy of quality journalism has done irreparable harm, not only to themselves but to the trust readers/listeners/viewers can put in them, or in any media. 

These are bad times. Journalism has been sidelined for the main game of getting those clicks (media as profit making machine) for quite some time, and in periods of world crisis, we see just how lacking we are.

 

I’m really glad they did that. I wish they’d also acknowledge that choosing to use an image from an unrelated incident to make the situation appear worse than it was was irresponsible. 
 

The damage is done in two ways however. There’s a subset of people that will never believe the retraction no matter how much evidence there is. And there’s a subset of people that will use it as a means of casting doubt on any other claims of civilian impacts. 

[Ausmumof3]

Two more hostages have apparently been released back to Israeli medical facilities due to poor medical condition. I think they may have gone over the border crossing with Egypt so not yet back in Israel. They are both older women.

[Ausmumof3]

“A third convoy of humanitarian aid trucks delivered water, food and medicine to the besieged Gaza Strip last night, but the United Nations is warning that fuel was not included and reserves will run out within the next two days.

It said no fuel would mean a water desalination plant could not function along with bakeries and hospitals.

Twenty trucks entered Gaza via Rafah on Monday, taking the total to 54 trucks since Saturday, UN spokesman Stephane Dujarric confirmed.”

[Melissa Louise]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/23/israel-shows-footage-of-hamas-killings-to-counter-denial-of-atrocities

*One still image from a distance in the link, one video which does not play automatically and all other atrocities described in text only.

I think this is another case, though, where those who deny the atrocities will not be convinced by evidence, and those who can be don't need video evidence to know that Hamas are terrorists.

The kind of brainwashing that can make men do these things and think they are serving God is terrifying, and I'm sorry, it's more terrifying than vaccine deniers.

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Melissa Louise

[Heartstrings]

2 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/23/israel-shows-footage-of-hamas-killings-to-counter-denial-of- 

Nm.  Deleted bc question was too upsetting.  

Edited October 24, 2023 by Heartstrings

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, Heartstrings said:

The only thing I’ve seen questioned is the 40 infants slaughtered, which I thought saw Israel had backed off of.  It’s not included in the article there, does anyone know if that was verified one way or the other?  
I guess I’ve been spared seeing any denials of the attack all together.  I have seen conspiracy theories about how Israel was warned in advance, but we had all that here after 9/11 too.   Hopefully there will be a full investigation and accounting at some point, like our 9/11 commission.  

I'm not going to go looking for the exact number of murdered infants and delve into the world of nit picking over how said infants became murdered/ burned/potentially headless.

Because honestly, I don't want to do that to myself. 

 

[Heartstrings]

11 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I'm not going to go looking for the exact number of murdered infants and delve into the world of nit picking over how said infants became murdered/ burned/potentially headless.

Because honestly, I don't want to do that to myself. 

 

Don’t blame you.  That’s why I was asking, in case anyone had just happened across it.   

[Ausmumof3]

29 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

The only thing I’ve seen questioned is the 40 infants slaughtered, which I thought saw Israel had backed off of.  It’s not included in the article there, does anyone know if that was verified one way or the other?  
 

The initial claim was specifically that they were beheaded which has been walked back. (I think it was one individual who made that statement not anything official but I’m not sure. Im reluctant to look because I’ve seen enough horrors already to believe and to not feel great right now)  There are some people who are now using that as a way to claim that everything is exaggerated or untrue.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Ausmumof3

[Momto6inIN]

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-babies-killed-hamas-terror-attack-kibbutz-kfar-aza-first-responders-say/

First responders on the scene claimed they saw the bodies of beheaded infants. If anyone is trying to "walk that back", I would put them in the same category as a Holocaust denier.

[Not_a_Number]

4 minutes ago, Momto6inIN said:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-babies-killed-hamas-terror-attack-kibbutz-kfar-aza-first-responders-say/

First responders on the scene claimed they saw the bodies of beheaded infants. If anyone is trying to "walk that back", I would put them in the same category as a Holocaust denier.

I also don't understand all the quibbling. It was obviously a brutal attack that didn't spare children or other vulnerable people. Does it matter exactly how many babies were beheaded? 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Not_a_Number

[Heartstrings]

25 minutes ago, Momto6inIN said:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-babies-killed-hamas-terror-attack-kibbutz-kfar-aza-first-responders-say/

First responders on the scene claimed they saw the bodies of beheaded infants. If anyone is trying to "walk that back", I would put them in the same category as a Holocaust denier.

Nm 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Heartstrings

[Heartstrings]

22 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I also don't understand all the quibbling. It was obviously a brutal attack that didn't spare children or other vulnerable people. Does it matter exactly how many babies were beheaded? 

NM.  Won’t quibble.  

Edited October 24, 2023 by Heartstrings

[Melissa Louise]

11 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I also don't understand all the quibbling. It was obviously a brutal attack that didn't spare children or other vulnerable people. Does it matter exactly how many babies were beheaded? 

This.

Can we not with the babies?

 

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

Many people, including here! Including myself! found that detail salient and particularly upsetting.

Honestly, I personally don't find it any more upsetting than the rest of it. Is this supposed to be more or less upsetting than the fact than totally random people living near Gaza got killed or kidnapped? (Apparently, an old physics teacher of my dad's was living right near Gaza, and his family got murdered. He was in his 80s.) 

I mean, I don't know if it's worse or better, it all seems completely equivalently awful to me. Because it's not sparing anyone at all. 

(This is unrelated to what's supposed to happen in response, which is a whole other topic. I just mean that I don't understand the focus on the truth or falsity of the "beheaded babies" statement.) 

[Condessa]

5 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

I'm not going to go looking for the exact number of murdered infants and delve into the world of nit picking over how said infants became murdered/ burned/potentially headless.

Because honestly, I don't want to do that to myself. 

I did read an article by a French journalist stating that she and several other international journalists agreed to view the bodies before they were removed from that kibbutz so they could be independent witnesses of the evidence.  It was horrific.  

[Ausmumof3]

7 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

Honestly, I personally don't find it any more upsetting than the rest of it. Is this supposed to be more or less upsetting than the fact than totally random people living near Gaza got killed or kidnapped? (Apparently, an old physics teacher of my dad's was living right near Gaza, and his family got murdered. He was in his 80s.) 

I mean, I don't know if it's worse or better, it all seems completely equivalently awful to me. Because it's not sparing anyone at all. 

(This is unrelated to what's supposed to happen in response, which is a whole other topic. I just mean that I don't understand the focus on the truth or falsity of the "beheaded babies" statement.) 

Somehow in a world that’s becoming accustomed to graphic horrors being perpetrated we need a more graphic or emotive image to even respond? What a horrible place we’re at!

[Condessa]

7 hours ago, Condessa said:

I did read an article by a French journalist stating that she and several other international journalists agreed to view the bodies before they were removed from that kibbutz so they could be independent witnesses of the evidence.  It was horrific.  

To clarify, she specifically said she saw many, many bodies of babies and toddlers, some of whom . . . and went on to mention some specific atrocities.  A witness that the atrocities had really occurred, not specific numbers.

[Idalou]

Certain type of murder evoke stronger emotions, as do the types of victims. This method brings to mind terrorists, medieval, etc. Somehow 1000 deaths of children just doesn't do it to that extent for some, they seem to be labeled as more of a cost of war . Maybe some of them were teens, not babies? Maybe because their bodies were buried under rubble? Maybe because bloody faces just don't move us anymore? I mean, an entire class full of children literally pulverized by bullets does nothing except make us blame each other here on the US.

It's similar to the hospital bombing. Can we not understand that they're still dead. That hospitals and grocery markets and festivals and homes and places of worship have been bombed, and more will be?  Why is one more heartbreaking than another? Is there a point that we can say ok, this is overkill? Do we really think that flattening Gaza will eradicate these men? Won't a ground assault bring in other countries? Why won't the US agree to a ceasefire UN resolution. We have veto power, why not work together to write a resolution to try to end the slaughters? Who benefits, and how, from the continuation?  I don't know, but I think multiple countries and groups all get something that they think will further their cause in this madness.

Really, the only way I can get through these types of discussions is knowing that there are Jewish organizations pleading for a ceasefire along with Palestinian groups. That there are Jewish people speaking about how the fear they have walking in their towns in the US today make them understand the fears and dangers so many Muslim Americans experienced post 9/11, even the fears black Americans can have today.  It's the coming together that changes things, not the coming together with  revenge. There will be plenty enough for generations in that  part of the world.

 

 

[Heartstrings]

28 minutes ago, Idalou said:

Do we really think that flattening Gaza will eradicate these men?

A pastor I follow was talking about that this morning, and said “No one can kill their way to peace or justice” and man, that’s just stuck in my head today.   

Edited October 24, 2023 by Heartstrings

[Meriwether]

7 hours ago, Idalou said:

Certain type of murder evoke stronger emotions, as do the types of victims. This method brings to mind terrorists, medieval, etc. Somehow 1000 deaths of children just doesn't do it to that extent for some, they seem to be labeled as more of a cost of war . Maybe some of them were teens, not babies? Maybe because their bodies were buried under rubble? Maybe because bloody faces just don't move us anymore? I mean, an entire class full of children literally pulverized by bullets does nothing except make us blame each other here on the US.

It's similar to the hospital bombing. Can we not understand that they're still dead. That hospitals and grocery markets and festivals and homes and places of worship have been bombed, and more will be?  Why is one more heartbreaking than another? Is there a point that we can say ok, this is overkill? Do we really think that flattening Gaza will eradicate these men? Won't a ground assault bring in other countries? Why won't the US agree to a ceasefire UN resolution. We have veto power, why not work together to write a resolution to try to end the slaughters? Who benefits, and how, from the continuation?  I don't know, but I think multiple countries and groups all get something that they think will further their cause in this madness.

Really, the only way I can get through these types of discussions is knowing that there are Jewish organizations pleading for a ceasefire along with Palestinian groups. That there are Jewish people speaking about how the fear they have walking in their towns in the US today make them understand the fears and dangers so many Muslim Americans experienced post 9/11, even the fears black Americans can have today.  It's the coming together that changes things, not the coming together with  revenge. There will be plenty enough for generations in that  part of the world.

 

 

I don't have the words right now to address the slant you use here, so I'm just quoting to hopefully come back later.

[Sneezyone]

7 hours ago, Idalou said:

Certain type of murder evoke stronger emotions, as do the types of victims. This method brings to mind terrorists, medieval, etc. Somehow 1000 deaths of children just doesn't do it to that extent for some, they seem to be labeled as more of a cost of war . Maybe some of them were teens, not babies? Maybe because their bodies were buried under rubble? Maybe because bloody faces just don't move us anymore? I mean, an entire class full of children literally pulverized by bullets does nothing except make us blame each other here on the US.

It's similar to the hospital bombing. Can we not understand that they're still dead. That hospitals and grocery markets and festivals and homes and places of worship have been bombed, and more will be?  Why is one more heartbreaking than another? Is there a point that we can say ok, this is overkill? Do we really think that flattening Gaza will eradicate these men? Won't a ground assault bring in other countries? Why won't the US agree to a ceasefire UN resolution. We have veto power, why not work together to write a resolution to try to end the slaughters? Who benefits, and how, from the continuation?  I don't know, but I think multiple countries and groups all get something that they think will further their cause in this madness.

Really, the only way I can get through these types of discussions is knowing that there are Jewish organizations pleading for a ceasefire along with Palestinian groups. That there are Jewish people speaking about how the fear they have walking in their towns in the US today make them understand the fears and dangers so many Muslim Americans experienced post 9/11, even the fears black Americans can have today.  It's the coming together that changes things, not the coming together with  revenge. There will be plenty enough for generations in that  part of the world.

 

 

TY. This is the hardest thing for me. I have old, Jewish friends. I have newer, Arab friends. I see the merit in both sides, tied to my familial experience as the descendant of oppressed people in a land we didn’t ask to be brought to and a land we have every right, at this point, to occupy. It’s complicated. The desire to oversimplify is understandable but misplaced. Thus, I’m just here to listen and learn. I am not, currently, affected but know those who are personally and professionally. I condemn the initial acts of violence and terror…it was/is horrific. What follows is a choice. How much, against whom, for how long…also choices. Invalidating the humanity of anyone is not helpful.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Not_a_Number]

7 hours ago, Idalou said:

Really, the only way I can get through these types of discussions is knowing that there are Jewish organizations pleading for a ceasefire along with Palestinian groups.

I have to say, this makes me feel kind of queasy. Are Jewish people who are NOT pleading for a ceasefire complicit? What if, given the fact that the Hamas attack took place during a supposed ceasefire, the idea of a ceasefire scares some of us? Who ceases fire, exactly? Is it really a ceasefire or just a chance for Hamas to regroup and do this again? 

[Idalou]

54 minutes ago, Meriwether said:

I don't have the words right now to address the slant you use here, so I'm just quoting to hopefully come back later.

Slant? You can go back and read all I've written. I don't have to pick a side, it's not a game. The killings need to stop. Wanting a ceasefire doesn't mean I'm pro Hamas or antisemitic. But yes, I can hate hamas and still feel disgusted by the Netanyahu administration, but I've always felt he was a crappy leader. I can feel for the innocent people no matter where they live or how they suffer. 

[Melissa Louise]

10 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I have to say, this makes me feel kind of queasy. Are Jewish people who are NOT pleading for a ceasefire complicit? What if, given the fact that the Hamas attack took place during a supposed ceasefire, the idea of a ceasefire scares some of us? Who ceases fire, exactly? Is it really a ceasefire or just a chance for Hamas to regroup and do this again? 

Good questions.

 

 

[Idalou]

54 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I have to say, this makes me feel kind of queasy. Are Jewish people who are NOT pleading for a ceasefire complicit? What if, given the fact that the Hamas attack took place during a supposed ceasefire, the idea of a ceasefire scares some of us? Who ceases fire, exactly? Is it really a ceasefire or just a chance for Hamas to regroup and do this again? 

Show me where I said people who arent pleading for a ceasefire are complicit? I said leaders of many countries in that area have for years tried to destroy chances of peace. I don't equate the Israeli admin as a religious entity. They're officials in a democracy. Their leader is the most far right one they've had in years, he's still on trial I think for fraud and corruption, with many thousands of citizens there the past year protesting him.  I also don't equate the average Palestinian with Hamas, who are vile beings that care little for Gazans. I do understand how tragedies unite people, we lived through that after 9/11 and saw how a large majority of us were in favor of a war.i also remember how the anti-war people were treated, so there's that.

A ceasefire can mean the killings end, for however long. Let a third country try to mediate. What's the endgame, if not a ceasefire? Hamas gains support from other terrorists nearby and Israel continues to flatten Gaza? Another country's terrorist group joins in which draws in another country? When d I you think enough is enough? If Hamas won't stop, that means its justifiable to slaughter even more women and children? Collective punishment until when? I don't know how you make it permanent. I do know that wiping out Gaza or wiping out Israeli are both wrong solutions. As I've said, I think historically both sides have taken turns at being at fault for not finding a way to coexist. Wasn't Rabin  killed by an ultranationalist while trying to reach a peace accord? Hamas overpowered and killed members of Fatah when it seemed like Israel would find a reasonable way of dealing with them.

Who ceases fire? Everyone. Is it a chance for Hamas to regroup? I would hope not, as much a I would hope it wouldn't mean a time out for Israel officials to plan an increase in the war. What happens after? I have not earthly idea, but I think every human there in harms way deserves a chance to not be shot, bombed, decapitated, burned or starved. Would a UN resolution help? I'd hope so, but the US vetoed one. Are they trying to write one that they US will agree not to use their veto power on? Again, I dont know but hope so.

You, in general,  can try all you want to catch me in some  gotcha moment, but you'd be so wrong. Being anti-war, being pro-lets stop killing Gazans and Israelis, being pro-ceasefire absolutely does not say I am anti-semitic or pro muslim or anything besides what I've said above.

Are you saying that there was a ceasefire and Hamas broke it? If so, what would you say if there were ceasefires in the past and Israel broke it? Because both have happened time and time again, which goes to my saying many are getting something out of not solving the strife. I dont have an answer, what's yours? 

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Idalou

[Not_a_Number]

I'm not a fan of Netanyahu AT ALL and I'm not trying to catch anyone out. 

But I think my questions are pertinent and I haven't seen them answered in a satisfactory way anywhere. 

An article I read today is talking about the same thing: 

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/hamas-obstacle-peace-gaza-ground-offensive/675743/

[Idalou]

3 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I'm not a fan of Netanyahu AT ALL and I'm not trying to catch anyone out. 

But I think my questions are pertinent and I haven't seen them answered in a satisfactory way anywhere. 

An article I read today is talking about the same thing: 

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/hamas-obstacle-peace-gaza-ground-offensive/675743/

I don't know. Killing more innocent people seems more likely to enrage others to keep the same insanity going. I read there were about 20, 000 Hamas members, but I don't know if thats true. If so, how many women and children need to die to get rid of the 20,000? How many are being created right now?

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Idalou said:

Killing more innocent people seems more likely to enrage others to keep the same insanity going.

The problem is that everything does. 

[Heartstrings]

10 minutes ago, Idalou said:

How many are being created right now?

I think THIS is the most important question for the future. At the end of this Israel still has to live next to Gaza.  Even if they kill every single member of Hamas, they are also planting the seed for what comes after Hamas, and with all this killing there will be something after. The people who remain will have lived through all of this, their neighborhoods flattened, civilians dying, etc. and will feel the same way that Israel felt about being attacked and the cycle continues on and on.  There can't be safety for Israel through killing more and more people, Israel is both killing their current enemy and creating the next one at the same time.  You can't kill your way to peace. 

 

ETA:  Americans should know this.  We fought Al Queida for a long time.  As we won that battle, ISIS sprung up to replace them and were worse in a lot of ways.  We made this mistake, I wish everyone else could learn from it.   In 20 years we couldn't kill everyone in those groups because us killing them was their biggest recruiting technique. 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Heartstrings

[Idalou]

4 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

The problem is that everything does. 

Everything? Maybe. That's kinda what makes an insane killer. But you can be perfectly normal and still be enraged about being a second class citizen, about not being able to travel freely, about having your farms stolen and being forced out of your homes, about police coming in the middle of the night and taking your husband while not being told why, about roads being segregated and having to wait 5 hours to pass through checkpoints to go to work. Israeli government is guilty of that. Hamas' slaughter has ruined the chances of Palestinians to live freely in dignity for possibly forever. 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Idalou said:

Everything? Maybe. That's kinda what makes an insane killer. But you can be perfectly normal and still be enraged about being a second class citizen, about not being able to travel freely, about having your farms stolen and being forced out of your homes, about police coming in the middle of the night and taking your husband while not being told why, about roads being segregated and having to wait 5 hours to pass through checkpoints to go to work. Israeli government is guilty of that. Hamas' slaughter has ruined the chances of Palestinians to live freely in dignity for possibly forever. 

Everything plausible I can see moving forward. Not everything EVERYTHING. 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Not_a_Number