Updates 2023 (job hunt etc)

[Ann.without.an.e]

I want to clarify what I said about assuming it isn't you. There will be times when you've messed up (because you're human) and you need to be willing to think on that too. Apologizing where you need to apologize makes or breaks relationships with teens. Parents can get so tunnel focused on all that they do for their kiddos that they refuse to see where they are missing the mark. I am NOT a perfect parent, but many people ask me how I have such a close relationship with my kids. I apologize a lot, y'all. When my kid reacts in a negative way, the first thing I do is step back and say "did I do something to cause this?". That being said, I think your boy is just struggling emotionally with so many things and I really don't think you've done anything wrong necessarily but we should always always be willing to think on it. 

Edited June 9, 2022 by Ann.without.an.e

[maize]

27 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

 

Re: of course coming over makes him sad because family isn’t whole. By that logic, being at both homes should make him sad.  

Feelings don't derive from logic.

[WildflowerMom]

Just now, ktgrok said:

Also, it is VERY common for a person who is insecure in their relationship with you to push and push and push you away, because they think you will eventually anyway. They'd rather it be on their timeline, and under their control, since they think it will happen anyway. Your job is to prove them wrong. 

It's also very common for mom to be the target.  My mom sure was.    Gosh, I was a horrific teen.   But I knew she wouldn't stop loving me.   Keep the texts up.  A lunch date, even to Wendy's or somewhere.   Just keep the lines of communication open. 

[freesia]

I'm so sorry.  That is all so hard.  I found my teens very hard to take at times (still do) particularly at the age your ds is.  They are just not at a stage where they consider your feelings AT ALL,but particularly when they are unhappy.  As mom, it is almost always your fault and you  can't win whether you do or don't.  When they are unhappy, they are looking for someone to blame.  My second ds, in particular, took a while to learn to articulate exactly what he was really unhappy about.  Instead, he would lash out.  It sounds like your ds is channeling all his unhappiness onto you.  And I actually think it was good he could articulate his feelings to you.  I had a dc who kept everything inside and that is far more destructive to the relationship and dc's mental health.  That dc would not attend therapy either, but I did to gain skill in helping that dc and our relationship.  It was a small step, by small step process (and we didn't have past hurts, divorce to deal with, but did have a narcissistic "friend" who had worked on alienating dc.) It really took years to rebuild the relationship, so I think you are giving up too soon.  He needs to know you care, even when he is rejecting you.  It's not the same as an adult who is doing the same thing.  Process your feelings with your therapist.  He or she can help you process and give you techniques and steps to cope and build relationship.  Please don't give up on him because he's being a stinker.  It's really common at that age and your ds has a lot of hurt, too.  Also, depressed teens tend to lash out.  He needs therapy or a parent in therapy. 

[Spryte]

DH and I could easily be estranged from our oldest son. We worked hard, incredibly hard not to be. I don’t know if this will help, but I will share a bit about how we ended up where we are now (with solid, healthy adult relationships).

Please don’t quote:

Our oldest is my DSS. We had him 50/50, and there was significant (very significant!) parental alienation. I could see the types of interactions you describe happening, easily. I’m pretty sure we had the same issues. This is going to sound loaded, and will inevitably induce eye-rolling in certain people who can’t ever accept that a stepmom might have things right, but my kid’s bio mom was mentally ill. Diagnosed. The kinds of behaviors DSS had modeled at her home, the alienation, the pressures and strange relationships — we could not do anything to change those things. So DH and I went to therapy, we found support, and we did what we could. Our therapist desperately wanted to see DSS in therapy, but it was clear that BM would sabotage it. Our therapist felt that preserving therapy for later in life was our best bet for DSS, that it would be a tool he could use as an adult if BM did not have the chance sabotage it.

We did all the things. Every offer to do something fun was met with, “No thank you.” So we just scheduled stuff and did it as a family. We did not give up. We ignored the complaining. His teen years were hard. His college years were even worse, when he was diagnosed with the same mental illness that BM had. Hospitalizations. Suicide attempts with underlying hostility toward his BM (like pointedly aimed messages to her). We stayed in therapy, stayed firm on our boundaries and kept our doors open.

The early adult years were slightly better. We regularly texted and called, and most of the time those messages were not returned. We had a brief period when he lived with us, and had to be asked to leave due to substance abuse. He left angry. Our therapist said we had to be prepared for him not to be ok. It sucked, frankly. We texted and called weekly for a year with no response. A year! We just kept sending small presents at appropriate times, reaching out, with zero expectations. And after about a year, we reconnected.

His BM lost her battle with mental illness soon after, and we were deeply afraid for DSS. But instead of following in her footsteps, he blossomed. It’s been a few years now, and he’s just in a great place. He met someone, got married. He’s in therapy and taking meds for his mental health, and we see him frequently.

What he knows now, and says to us, is that we were always there for him. We never gave up. He sees it.

And so I would, gently, say to you: don’t give up. Find a way that works to see him, text often — happy, loving texts (don’t let your hurt or resentment leak through), be there and be present for him. We never willingly stopped any of our custodial time, but that was not an option on the table. I think if it had been and seemed necessary, we’d have moved mountains to see DSS even if at a restaurant or activities. What kids remember later is the people who showed up. So, I’d say — show up. Be there without expectations or asking anything of him.

I would also suggest that you refrain from giving him experiences to do with his father — let his father come up with those ideas. Your son will always remember the experience of smash it with his dad, and he won’t recall that you paid for it. If he doesn’t go to that concert, just go yourself with a friend. No need to make his dad into a hero.

 

[freesia]

6 minutes ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

I want to clarify what I said about assuming it isn't you. There will be times when you've messed up (because you're human) and you need to be willing to think on that too. Apologizing where you need to apologize makes or breaks relationships with teens. Parents can get so tunnel focused on all that they do for their kiddos that they refuse to see where they are missing the mark. I am NOT a perfect parent, but many people ask me how I have such a close relationship with my kids. I apologize a lot, y'all. When my kids reacts in a negative way, the first thing I do is step back and say "did I do something to cause this?". That being said, I think your boy is just struggling emotionally with so many things and I really don't think you've done anything wrong necessarily but we should always always be willing to think on it. 

Yes.  One of my ds's was very very negative about my dh.  Guys, dh is really a great guy.  He loves the kids, spends time with us, never gets angry (other than stern or serious over misbehavior.)  He's very healthy emotionally.  We had no idea why ds was so upset with him.  I told him that he needed to have a talk with him and ask if he had done anything to hurt ds.  He did and then when ds said he hadn't done anything told ds that he apologized if he had done anything that ds didn't feel comfortable sharing and that he loved him a lot and thought he was a great kid.  It cleared the air in an amazing way.  They have a much better relationship now.  Sometimes, in their immaturity, kids misinterpret situations.  They aren't gaslighting, they just don't have the emotional maturity. Sometimes we really have hurt them by doing something we didn't attend to hurt them, or didn't think would hurt them, but does.

The birthday cake thing is so typical.  It's hard to know when to honor their autonomy and when to decide you know better.  He probably would have been mad at you either way, OP.

[freesia]

10 minutes ago, WildflowerMom said:

It's also very common for mom to be the target.  My mom sure was.    Gosh, I was a horrific teen.   But I knew she wouldn't stop loving me.   Keep the texts up.  A lunch date, even to Wendy's or somewhere.   Just keep the lines of communication open. 

Yes, this.  When the dc I referenced above was alienated from me, I went in and prayed with them and massaged their back (they had a lot of shoulder pain at that time) every night bc they allowed me to do that.  Now this child didn't lash out, but I knew they prefered I didn't.  But I knew they liked the massages.  I told them I loved them.  Every night, through everything, with absolutely NO positive feedback and lots of push away behavior.  It was so so hard.  Just keep texting, every day, even if it's just a good night with a heart emoji.  Take him to lunch or Starbucks even if he doesn't talk at all. (Oh, my goodness, I remember taking dc to Starbucks, it was pouring rain and dc just sat their sullenly and barely answered any questions.) Dc also told me everything I loved doing with the kids was something she'd hated. 

Fast forward--we aren't the closest of parent/dc and this child told me that I wouldn't hear from them often in college.  No kidding this dc texts 6/7 days and asks to Facetime weekly.  We are so far from those dark days.  Every kind response, every loving thing was like a drip, drip, drip of building a relationship.  Eventually dc moved on from the toxic relationship and ways of thinking that had poisoned things and realized the love that we had been giving them all along.  You have to play the long game and it might be VERY long.

[Spryte]

3 minutes ago, freesia said:

Every kind response, every loving thing was like a drip, drip, drip of building a relationship.  Eventually dc moved on from the toxic relationship and ways of thinking that had poisoned things and realized the love that we had been giving them all along.  You have to play the long game and it might be VERY long.

Oh goodness, yes. This. This was my experience as well. 

(I didn’t quote the whole post, in case freesia decides she wants more privacy later.)

[Ann.without.an.e]

12 minutes ago, freesia said:

Yes.  One of my ds's was very very negative about my dh.  Guys, dh is really a great guy.  He loves the kids, spends time with us, never gets angry (other than stern or serious over misbehavior.)  He's very healthy emotionally.  We had no idea why ds was so upset with him.  I told him that he needed to have a talk with him and ask if he had done anything to hurt ds.  He did and then when ds said he hadn't done anything told ds that he apologized if he had done anything that ds didn't feel comfortable sharing and that he loved him a lot and thought he was a great kid.  It cleared the air in an amazing way.  They have a much better relationship now.  Sometimes, in their immaturity, kids misinterpret situations.  They aren't gaslighting, they just don't have the emotional maturity. Sometimes we really have hurt them by doing something we didn't attend to hurt them, or didn't think would hurt them, but does.

The birthday cake thing is so typical.  It's hard to know when to honor their autonomy and when to decide you know better.  He probably would have been mad at you either way, OP.

 

I think by default this age assumes that you think you're perfect and that you think you have it all figured out and apologizing (or the willingness to apologize) shatters these misconceptions. The end result is that you're more approachable and they're more willing to say something if you have indeed made a mistake. You're saying "I know I'm not perfect and I'm willing to take responsibility for any pain I've caused and I'm approachable about these sort of topics". Which is huge, huge, huge to keeping the connection strong. 

[Lillyfee]

I did not read everything but I am really sorry. 

Maybe this traditional therapy setting feels "weird" or "silly" to him, too.

What about horsebackriding with a person that acts as a therapist? Or maybe walking shelter dogs with some therapist. Both of you need to control your emotions in that setting.

A friend of me was in therapy with her 12 year old and a horse stable that offered therapy lessons was the first place they got closer again.

[freesia]

2 minutes ago, Lillyfee said:

I did not read everything but I am really sorry. 

Maybe this traditional therapy setting feels "weird" or "silly" to him, too.

What about horsebackriding with a person that acts as a therapist? Or maybe walking shelter dogs with some therapist. Both of you need to control your emotions in that setting.

A friend of me was in therapy with her 12 year old and a horse stable that offered therapy lessons was the first place they got closer again.

I wish I’d thought of horse therapy for my dc. In retrospect, it would have been perfect!

[fraidycat]

I'm sorry you have to deal with this. I think that giving him space while also maintaining a loving connection is vital.

On the weeks he is "supposed" to come to your house, I'd insist on at least one hour for a drive-thru meal or snack, (neutral, away from your house) and a few texts/week or even every night. Just a one-line, "Love you, goodnight, good dreams" all freely given, with no expectation of conversation (on the snack dates), response, appreciation, or gratitude will show him that you still love him.

Actions speak louder than words. These are the building blocks from which you can possibly (hopefully) build a better relationship in the future. 

I believe you when you say there is probably parental alienation going on because, if I recall correctly, there was some of that going on while you were still married and living in the same house.

Big hugs. This has got to be heart-wrenching for you, especially while you are on your own healing journey. I hope you are able to find a way forward that maintains your own boundaries and sanity.

One thing that I try to remember and act out in all of my relationships, but especially the difficult ones, is that I get to choose the type of person I want to be, no matter how the other person is acting/reacting. I have a person in my life who gets pissed off because I am "too patient and calm" - true story. They crave the drama and high intensity emotions, and misery loves company, but I just don't engage in the way they would like, because I have pre-decided that Kind and Loving is the person I want to be. 

It takes a lot of internal work to maintain that on my part. It's not that I made up my mind one day and acted accordingly instantly, but it is worth it to me for my peace-of-mind to keep trying and doing my own work to erect and hold my boundaries.
 

 

[HS Mom in NC]

OP, everyone here is being very nice to you, but I care enough about you and your son to tell you the hard truth. I'm a child of chaos like your son. Your current attitude and mindset are  throwing gas on flames and you're reacting to the fire alarm as through it's the problem.  It's not.  You are. Stop.  Just stop.

You strike me as a typical dysfunctional parent: emotionally immature. I assume the same of your spouse.  You seem to have wildly unrealistic expectations of your child, wanting him to be far more mature and long sighted than anyone at 14 years could possibly be and not grasping that a child exposed to what your child was exposed to growing up would be far less equipped than the typical kid.   You allow yourself to childishly react to his typical teen behaviors which is role reversal. In addition you have no sympathy or even grasp of the natural consequences of what you and your ex husband dumped on him over the years. It's long past time to take on the parental role and the parental responsibility that goes with it. (Yes, I'd say the same thing to your ex husband too.)

Yes, you were/are hurt by your ex husband, your marriage, and your child's lashing out response to the chaos you participated in and contributed to.  Emotionally immature adults don't prioritize their pain over their child's needs.  Your child needs therapy and he needs you in therapy, doing the grueling, painful, frustrating work of growing up and getting healthy.

You have no business proceeding without individual therapy for yourself and joint therapy with him.  You have a history of ineffectively handling family dynamics as evidenced by a toxic marriage that went on far too long without appropriate professional help. Now is your chance to salvage your relationship with your child. You are not equipped to do that on your own.  Some humility on your part is absolutely essential; it's time you admit you need ongoing, professional, licensed, clinical help in your family relationships.

My parents are emotionally immature adults too. They're in their late 70s now.  You do not want a future like theirs. They couldn't face up to their need for help either and they've ruined all their family relationships.  When they die it will be more of a relief than a loss, which isn't anything I would wish on anyone.  You deserve to have functional, long term, quality relationships for the rest of your  life.  You can get there by cooperating with the appropriate professional help.

[Laura Corin]

2 hours ago, maize said:

He's a kid who has recently been through parental divorce preceded by years of unhealthy family relationships. 

It isn't surprising that his emotions are a mess and that he is saying inconsistent and irrational things.

None of that is anything you can fix, so in a way I think I understand what you are saying--you can't force a positive relationship, so just accepting that things are where they are may be the best you can do. That, and keep working on your own mental health, and keeping a place of empathy and compassion in your heart for him. 

I would try to keep whatever doors open you can for relating to him. Process your feelings about how he is relating or not relating to you with your therapist, and do what you can to not resent him and the irrational stuff he says.

((()))

Yes. I was not a nice person when my parents were splitting up. I was hurt and didn't know what to do with my pain, then lashed out. This was more healthy than the subsequent stage when I stopped expressing.  

I would respond to the hurt he feels rather than the words he says. Keep the doors open and don't stop trying.

[ktgrok]

I really do get that it is hard when you are dealing with healing from toxic behavior in an adult romantic relationship, and then seeing similar behaviors from your kid. They DO look a lot alike! I get that!

But, think of how a 2 yr old acts - their behavior ALSO mimics that of an abusive narccisist, right? But at that age, it is developmentally appropriate. It isn't toxic behavior when it is a 2 yr old yelling, "I hate you!" over a favorite shirt being dirty. It IS toxic if an adult spouse yells at you over a favorite shirt being dirty. Or imaging your toddler smacks you because they don't want to go to the store, vs your husband doing it.  Same actions, but totally different. 

Same with your son. Even when his actions mimic toxic ones, you need to remember this is developmentally appropriate at his age, and the goal is for him to learn (over time...lots of time) better methods of handling things. 

[vonfirmath]

If it helps -- my sister had a very strained relationship with her daughter from about age 16 to pretty much the last 6 months (daughter will be 23 this year) She even had her daughter in therapy to help -- not just with their relationship but other things and she feels the therapist made things worse in many ways. Encouraged her daughter in her alienation.  But things are patching up and getting better now

 

Oh my sister is not divorced. She and her husband were working together -- no deliberate alienation happening.

[Ann.without.an.e]

49 minutes ago, HS Mom in NC said:

You strike me as a typical dysfunctional parent: emotionally immature. I assume the same of your spouse. 

 

I know you mean well and I don't doubt that there is potentially some good and some truth sprinkled in what you say, but your tone is too jarring, harsh, and possibly even too condescending for the truth to be heard. Sometimes good things are drowned out by tone and I mean your best when I say that you should possibly work on communication so that the truth you share can be heard and not written off. Words like "Stop. Just stop." Phrases like "you strike me as" assume that you are about to fling judgement and assumption into a situation you don't quite understand. "You have no business" again, your wording is jarring so any good you say probably won't be heard ❤️ I mean this with love, really I do. I don't think that heart is an emotionally immature parent, I think she is an emotionally spent parent. There is a difference. Anyone can get to the end of their strength with a situation. Please don't define people based on their raw, honest struggles. That isn't fair and you would hate for others to do that to you. 

 

ETA: maybe it is just me but your wording put me on the defensive and I am not even @heartlikealion

Edited June 9, 2022 by Ann.without.an.e

[WildflowerMom]

18 minutes ago, HS Mom in NC said:

OP, everyone here is being very nice to you, but I care enough about you and your son to tell you the hard truth. I'm a child of chaos like your son. Your current attitude and mindset are  throwing gas on flames and you're reacting to the fire alarm as through it's the problem.  It's not.  You are. Stop.  Just stop.

You strike me as a typical dysfunctional parent: emotionally immature. I assume the same of your spouse.  You seem to have wildly unrealistic expectations of your child, wanting him to be far more mature and long sighted than anyone at 14 years could possibly be and not grasping that a child exposed to what your child was exposed to growing up would be far less equipped than the typical kid.   You allow yourself to childishly react to his typical teen behaviors which is role reversal. In addition you have no sympathy or even grasp of the natural consequences of what you and your ex husband dumped on him over the years. It's long past time to take on the parental role and the parental responsibility that goes with it. (Yes, I'd say the same thing to your ex husband too.)

Yes, you were/are hurt by your ex husband, your marriage, and your child's lashing out response to the chaos you participated in and contributed to.  Emotionally immature adults don't prioritize their pain over their child's needs.  Your child needs therapy and he needs you in therapy, doing the grueling, painful, frustrating work of growing up and getting healthy.

You have no business proceeding without individual therapy for yourself and joint therapy with him.  You have a history of ineffectively handling family dynamics as evidenced by a toxic marriage that went on far too long without appropriate professional help. Now is your chance to salvage your relationship with your child. You are not equipped to do that on your own.  Some humility on your part is absolutely essential; it's time you admit you need ongoing, professional, licensed, clinical help in your family relationships.

My parents are emotionally immature adults too. They're in their late 70s now.  You do not want a future like theirs. They couldn't face up to their need for help either and they've ruined all their family relationships.  When they die it will be more of a relief than a loss, which isn't anything I would wish on anyone.  You deserve to have functional, long term, quality relationships for the rest of your  life.  You can get there by cooperating with the appropriate professional help.

She has been getting individual therapy.  She stopped to get help with the narcissistic a-hole she’s just divorced.  
She is trying, being honest with us, and getting beat down at home (and here) and honestly, she needs some support.  

 

Btw, you also need a helping of humility, not to mention kindness and grace, if you have the capacity for it. 

[WildflowerMom]

4 minutes ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

 

I know you mean well and I don't doubt that there is some good and some truth sprinkled in what you say, but your tone is too jarring, harsh, and possibly even too condescending for the truth to be heard. Sometimes good things are drowned out by tone and I mean your best when I say that you should possibly work on communication so that the truth you share can be heard and not written off. Words like "Stop. Just stop." Phrases like "you strike me as" assume that you are about to fling judgement and assumption into a situation you don't quite understand. "You have no business" again, your wording is jarring so any good you say probably won't be heard ❤️ I mean this with love, really I do. 

Apparently, we had the same thought.  Except mine wasn’t spoken out of love.  🤯

[Ann.without.an.e]

7 minutes ago, WildflowerMom said:

Apparently, we had the same thought.  Except mine wasn’t spoken out of love.  🤯

You mean well ❤️ I about spewed my coffee at "if you have the capacity for it". I'm sure you're just feeling the same defensiveness I felt. "If you have the capacity" might be a little too feisty and asking for an escalation though 🙃

Edited June 9, 2022 by Ann.without.an.e

[WildflowerMom]

6 minutes ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

You mean well ❤️ I about spewed my coffee at "if you have the capacity for it". I'm sure you're just feeling the same defensiveness I felt. "If you have the capacity" might be a little too feisty and asking for an escalation though 🙃

For whatever reason, that poster gets a pass on being a jerk to people and this time it’s too much.   Heart is struggling, so I guess we’re supposed to kick her while she’s down, call her an emotionally dysfunctional immature parent????   WTH???     

[Ann.without.an.e]

On 6/9/2022 at 1:48 PM, WildflowerMom said:

For whatever reason, that poster gets a pass on being a jerk to people and this time it’s too much.   Heart is struggling, so I guess we’re supposed to kick her while she’s down, call her an emotionally dysfunctional immature parent????   WTH???     

 

I don't want to dogpile on anyone. I tend to assume others mean well but execute poorly. Heart shouldn't be defined by her struggle here. She's emotionally spent (I edited to say that to the poster). There is a huge difference between the two. We can all get to the end of our rope sometimes and no one's whole character should be defined when they are in that place, hanging on for dear life emotionally. I agree wholeheartedly to not kicking her when she is down ❤️ 

Edited December 30, 2022 by Ann.without.an.e

[JennyD]

2 hours ago, bolt. said:

I do a technique that I call "1001 clean slates". You know how on old sit-coms, there's no sense that the people even remember what happened to them 'last week'? They just start each new episode with fresh faces for a new adventure?

Every time I see my teen daughter I act like nothing upsetting happened the last time we spoke. It's always, "Good morning sweetie!" or "How was your day?" or "Did you get caught in the rain?" -- just fresh faced small talk, every time, guaranteed.

I do that too and it never ceases to amaze me how effective it is, especially with my extremely emotional/anxious 14yo.  

 

 

 

Edited June 9, 2022 by JennyD

[freesia]

Sometimes it helps just knowing it’s not personal and that you aren’t alone in dealing with an angry, hurt, moody teen. 

[heartlikealion]

Wow… 

do you guys think I never took ownership? That I haven’t repeatedly apologized to ds? 
 

because I have. 

[maize]

2 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

Wow… 

do you guys think I never took ownership? That I haven’t repeatedly apologized to ds? 
 

because I have. 

((()))

I think most of us here absolutely understand that you are doing the very best you can and are stuck with a lot of stuff outside of your control.

 

[heartlikealion]

I only stopped the one-on-one therapy like 2 weeks ago because of money & time. I overdrew from both bank accounts this past month. I never said I was at the pinnacle of emotionally maturity etc. My group therapy NAR class is like 5 more weeks and we get homework every week. I’m trying to juggle a lot. 

[Farrar]

1 hour ago, HS Mom in NC said:

OP, everyone here is being very nice to you, but I care enough about you and your son to tell you the hard truth. I'm a child of chaos like your son. Your current attitude and mindset are  throwing gas on flames and you're reacting to the fire alarm as through it's the problem.  It's not.  You are. Stop.  Just stop.

You strike me as a typical dysfunctional parent: emotionally immature. I assume the same of your spouse.  You seem to have wildly unrealistic expectations of your child, wanting him to be far more mature and long sighted than anyone at 14 years could possibly be and not grasping that a child exposed to what your child was exposed to growing up would be far less equipped than the typical kid.   You allow yourself to childishly react to his typical teen behaviors which is role reversal. In addition you have no sympathy or even grasp of the natural consequences of what you and your ex husband dumped on him over the years. It's long past time to take on the parental role and the parental responsibility that goes with it. (Yes, I'd say the same thing to your ex husband too.)

Yes, you were/are hurt by your ex husband, your marriage, and your child's lashing out response to the chaos you participated in and contributed to.  Emotionally immature adults don't prioritize their pain over their child's needs.  Your child needs therapy and he needs you in therapy, doing the grueling, painful, frustrating work of growing up and getting healthy.

You have no business proceeding without individual therapy for yourself and joint therapy with him.  You have a history of ineffectively handling family dynamics as evidenced by a toxic marriage that went on far too long without appropriate professional help. Now is your chance to salvage your relationship with your child. You are not equipped to do that on your own.  Some humility on your part is absolutely essential; it's time you admit you need ongoing, professional, licensed, clinical help in your family relationships.

My parents are emotionally immature adults too. They're in their late 70s now.  You do not want a future like theirs. They couldn't face up to their need for help either and they've ruined all their family relationships.  When they die it will be more of a relief than a loss, which isn't anything I would wish on anyone.  You deserve to have functional, long term, quality relationships for the rest of your  life.  You can get there by cooperating with the appropriate professional help.

Many of the things you seem to think you're the only one saying were said by lots of posters.

Heartlikealion referenced a bunch of different ways that she is getting professional, licensed therapy from experts and is working on herself and her reactions.

Clearly you didn't read the thread very closely.

[catz]

2 hours ago, heartlikealion said:

Re: of course coming over makes him sad because family isn’t whole. By that logic, being at both homes should make him sad.  

I just wanted to mention one thing I've seen in a number of families of divorce that I haven't seen mentioned here.  The parent that leaves the childhood home seems to get the designation as the deserter and gets the brunt of emotion.  That doesn't mean you were, that's just how it looks and feels to a kid with an immature brain.  Kids this age really are reverting to their toddler selves, their brains are not mature, they aren't empathetic and self aware.  They are just hurt, feeling alone and deserted, and lash out.  If I'm remembering correctly, this is true in your case?  My SIL left my brother and it was the same.  They are back together now and there are still tensions with the kids and trust is slowly rebuilding.  

Anyway, I hope you decide to keep working on therapy for yourself.  I think it's so common for emotions to tangle when you're leaving a situation that was abusive for you and not conflate it. This isn't really gaslighting. I really think your kid who is still just a young teen and won't have a mature brain for another dozen years is just lashing out at a situation that just hurts and he doesn't have the words.  He is vocalizing his reality in his head.  I do agree it has been helpful to be humble, listen and apologize to my kids.  Sometimes that means saying "I'm sorry X made you feel that way".  I actually think having him in a therapy situation where he feels safe enough to just unload is positive.  He felt safe doing that in that moment.  I do think that is progress.

I would move to toddler brain mode.  Give him 2-3 choices and no chance to say no "would you prefer cupcakes or a cake for your birthday?  Chocolate or vanilla?  Do you want to have lunch at McDonald's or Panera with me on Saturday.  Have toddler expectations for responses.  Text him and don't expect a response.   SO many teen parent relationships are one way.  Even teens in intact families have parents that give up on them and adult relationships never have a chance to blossom then when they get to the other side of their fog.  

If it helps to vent here, that is fine!  It's ok to say JAWM and that you need a venting thread.  Or reach out via PM to responses you've found useful.  

 

2 hours ago, bolt. said:

I do a technique that I call "1001 clean slates". You know how on old sit-coms, there's no sense that the people even remember what happened to them 'last week'? They just start each new episode with fresh faces for a new adventure?

THIS is parenting gold and I wouldn't have survived the teen years here with one of my kids without these techniques.  Just keep telling yourself toddler in an adult body toddler in an adult body.  

I just saw your last response and I don't think anyone is saying you haven't tried or taken ownership or used the words I'm sorry.  But being exhausted doesn't meawn he is done healing or processing or speaking his truth.  Healing the relationship will require patience and some months you may just go through the motions to remind him you're there.  

The angry poster above is projecting her own situation.  Just ignore that.  

[Ann.without.an.e]

14 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

Wow… 

do you guys think I never took ownership? That I haven’t repeatedly apologized to ds? 
 

because I have. 

Just in case it is me you’re referring to, please let me explain my post. It actually wasn’t pointed at you at all. I first wrote about how you should just assume it’s not about you and not take it personal and then had this thought “too many parents live in that mode and never apologize at all and that’s wrong too and who knows who is reading this that will take it as a pass”. It wasn’t at all about you and that is why I ended the thought with how I didn’t think that was the case with your boy ❤️ I just felt the need to clarify that sometimes it is us, not speaking at all about you specifically and I think that created a convo in general about apologizing to our kids. 

Edited June 9, 2022 by Ann.without.an.e

[heartlikealion]

20 minutes ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

Just in case it is me you’re referring to, let me explain my post lol. It actually wasn’t pointed at you at all. I first wrote about how you should just assume it’s not about you and not take it personal and then had this thought “too many parents live in that mode and never apologize at all and that’s wrong too and who knows who is reading this that will take it as a pass”. It wasn’t at all about you and that is why I ended the thought with how I didn’t think that was the case with your boy ❤️ I just felt the need to clarify that sometimes it is us, not speaking at all about you specifically and I think that created a convo in general about apologizing to our kids. 

It was directed at someone else. I have apologized in front of him alone and in front of therapists. 
Xh kept pushing a narrative that I said I wish I didn’t have kids. Ds believed I wished he wasn’t born. I explained in front of the last therapist that he heard me lashing out at xh that I wished I didn’t have kids with him. It got taken out of context but I do realize if you reject a parent they can internalize it as a rejection of half of themselves…. Anyway it’s awful and I regret it and after I explained the whole thing with him his response was as if he didn’t understand. He replied, “two wrongs don’t make a right.” And the therapist said to you understand what your mom meant? And all he could fixate on was that mom was rude to dad? I think. 

xh told the kids mom isn’t nice, she just pretends to be. This was passed onto me by someone I trust when dd repeated this message. I even have a recording off dd saying, “Dad says…” but court wouldn’t let me use it without making my child testify. I played it for the GAL. No response. I bought 3 books on parental alienation and gave them out. One to the first therapist with key parts highlighted. One to my lawyer written for legal professionals, with key parts highlighted. And one fir healthcare professionals to the current therapist and he refused to accept it so I took it back. 

Edited June 9, 2022 by heartlikealion
Reject a parent said reject a person. Edited for clarity

[heartlikealion]

Just for the record no I didn’t think of it as “ds has to earn texts from me”! I just wondered if he even read then because he has a habit of not checking his phone. And worried I was just annoying him. The texts were harmless. A funny meme. A picture of beef jerky aisle because he wanted to get Dad teriyaki beef jerky for Father’s Day and I told him sorry they don’t carry it here. 

next week while dd is at VBS I’ll see if ds can come over a little because we can’t really do what we want with dd there. I don’t like watching Big Bang theory with her in the room, for example. If Monday is a disaster we regroup later. 

Ds is like a man that tells you after a year of sitting in the back row of a theatre that he doesn’t like that row lol I can accept the truth but he gives it retroactively and refuses to answer yes/no. Like btw mom that food 2 weeks ago hurt my stomach (thanks for telling me now??? Lol) 

[Ann.without.an.e]

4 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

It was directed at someone else. I have apologized in front of him alone and in front of therapists. 

I’m sorry, that sounds difficult for everyone involved. People with NPD can push you to say stuff you don’t mean, that is real and he’s  too young to understand that. It is also normal for him to feel that your rejection of xh means a rejection of him since he came from xh. It will take a lot of reaffirming of your love for him for you to correct that in his brain. And that’s not easy when he’s being so difficult. Find random ways to say things like “I hate that my relationship with your dad ended badly but at least I have you, you (and your siblings) made it worth it.” Say it again and again in many ways rn. Once isn’t enough in this circumstance. 

[Farrar]

28 minutes ago, catz said:

I would move to toddler brain mode.  Give him 2-3 choices and no chance to say no "would you prefer cupcakes or a cake for your birthday?  Chocolate or vanilla?  Do you want to have lunch at McDonald's or Panera with me on Saturday.  Have toddler expectations for responses.  Text him and don't expect a response.   SO many teen parent relationships are one way.  Even teens in intact families have parents that give up on them and adult relationships never have a chance to blossom then when they get to the other side of their fog.  

 

QFT. Seriously, this is as gold advice as the 1001 blank slates.

I had to do the blank slate with a teen today. He got really emotional about politics and got super nasty with us. "Okay, I've said my piece and I'm done engaging about this." Cheerful, cheerful, cheerful as he sulked and stewed and fumed. Back at the house, a very quiet, "Sorry I got so worked up." "It's all good. Want to finish those cookies!?" Here's hoping you get there and your kid gets there. It'll take time and support.

[catz]

Just now, heartlikealion said:

Like btw mom that food 2 weeks ago hurt my stomach (thanks for telling me now??? Lol) 

One thing I was going to mention with the food thing if it often comes up, is gut issues can often be tied into anxiety and/or depression.  We have some experience with that here.  He may equate having a nervous stomach with whatever food is at your house and be misplacing his feelings with that.  Just thought I'd throw that out there.  When feelings are jumbled I don't think it's unusual to conflate emotional feelings to physical discomfort when you aren't maybe mature enough to self reflect and vocalize.   Heck, plenty of adults aren't good with this.  I only got to this place with some therapy and serious self reflection and I'm still far from perfect.  

I've found it helpful to vocalize this with my teen who is prone to this.  "I wonder if you might be feeling A (nervous, anxious, sad, etc) because of X?" when there is physical complaints or even misplaced anger, etc.  This has been SO helpful with her.  She has come full circle on things and has gotten way better at vocalizing her feelings and overcoming anxious.  Part of that is just maturity too, she's an older teen now (rising senior).  

[WildflowerMom]

Heart, just a thought regarding texts….  Whatever ds is into, send him something related to that.  Example: even when ds and I were at our most strained parenting points, if something interesting happened in the SEC football world, I’d send him the link and say something about it.  ‘Omg, the gators hired dooflickey!’ and the link.  Sometimes he might never mention it, but other times, he might say something small in passing, ‘I can’t believe they did that.’ or whatever.   Anyway, still today if anything happens football wise, he and I will text about it.   So if there’s something your kid is interested in, showing an interest yourself and just letting him see that sometimes might be a good way to connect.  It doesn’t have to be daily, just when you see something.   

[Scarlett]

I have been out running errands all day and haven’t had time to properly respond.  
 

@heartlikealion there is a lot of good advice in this thread so please ignore the harsh posts and posters.  Trust me I know the terrible pain you are in.  A lot of us do.  You just have to keep swimming and even though it is not fun or fair ignore his venom.  I loved @bolt.’s advice.  Fresh faced, new day, chipper conversation.  
 

As far as the advice about therapy helping him ‘get his feelings out’……I don’t feel it is helpful to spew crap at anyone especially your own mother.  If anyone wants to hear the regret that will come by someone who did that go listen to Eminem’s ‘Headlights’.  
 

Hang in there. And don’t forget you have another child…..don’t give everything (your heart, mind, thoughts, attention) to ds to the point she gets shortchanged.  

[Scarlett]

11 minutes ago, Farrar said:

QFT. Seriously, this is as gold advice as the 1001 blank slates.

I had to do the blank slate with a teen today. He got really emotional about politics and got super nasty with us. "Okay, I've said my piece and I'm done engaging about this." Cheerful, cheerful, cheerful as he sulked and stewed and fumed. Back at the house, a very quiet, "Sorry I got so worked up." "It's all good. Want to finish those cookies!?" Here's hoping you get there and your kid gets there. It'll take time and support.

It is like the parent/teen version of pass the bean dip.  

[heartlikealion]

Yes I’m emotionally spent… that’s a good way to put it! I literally started crying in the office reading this thread and left to get food. That’s on me. I know my reactions are my own. Also, constructive criticism goes further than scolding lol 

The divorce process started Oct 2020. My mom died a few days after I got served. Dh’s first lawyer died in the hospital after months of Covid & coma. Then MIL died on our wedding anniversary in Jan. It’s been a weird time. 

I went to a trauma therapist before my current one. I paid $27/month for like a year to complete the Leslie Vernick Conquer course, too. I’ve done a lot of reading and therapy. 

I had to move out because it’s faculty housing and I’m not the faculty member. Xh pays less in rent rush me and makes more than double what I do. Ds just thinks I’m bad with money. My credit score is excellent (and I got my overdrafts reversed) but I couldn’t buy a house because I couldn’t qualify for the first time home buyer’s grant because xh’s income screwed up my application. Now rates have jumped and they are enrolled in school so I gave up and found a rental to get away from my awful landlord. So a divorce, deaths, and 2 moves… yes it’s been stressful 

[freesia]

2 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

Yes I’m emotionally spent… that’s a good way to put it! I literally started crying in the office reading this thread and left to get food. That’s on me. I know my reactions are my own. Also, constructive criticism goes further than scolding lol 

The divorce process started Oct 2020. My mom died a few days after I got served. Dh’s first lawyer died in the hospital after months of Covid & coma. Then MIL died on our wedding anniversary in Jan. It’s been a weird time. 

I went to a trauma therapist before my current one. I paid $27/month for like a year to complete the Leslie Vernick Conquer course, too. I’ve done a lot of reading and therapy. 

I had to move out because it’s faculty housing and I’m not the faculty member. Xh pays less in rent rush me and makes more than double what I do. Ds just thinks I’m bad with money. My credit score is excellent (and I got my overdrafts reversed) but I couldn’t buy a house because I couldn’t qualify for the first time home buyer’s grant because xh’s income screwed up my application. Now rates have jumped and they are enrolled in school so I gave up and found a rental to get away from my awful landlord. So a divorce, deaths, and 2 moves… yes it’s been stressful 

Yes, it is a lot.  And with the pandemic and world events on top of everything, no one has much emotional reserve.  I would be a mess in your situation.  You have been very brave.  Just keep focusing on small steps forward.  Any little progress in any area is worth noting and celebrating.❤️

[Ann.without.an.e]

2 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

 

As far as the advice about therapy helping him ‘get his feelings out’……I don’t feel it is helpful to spew crap at anyone especially your own mother.  If anyone wants to hear the regret that will come by someone who did that go listen to Eminem’s ‘Headlights’.  
 

Hang in there. And don’t forget you have another child…..don’t give everything (your heart, mind, thoughts, attention) to ds to the point she gets shortchanged.  

 

I agree with this. Especially the part about having another child. It is so easy to get emotionally wrapped up in fixing the relationship with the kiddo who is causing us pain and unintentionally have little left for the one who is there by our side. 

 

2 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

Yes I’m emotionally spent… that’s a good way to put it! I literally started crying in the office reading this thread and left to get food. That’s on me. I know my reactions are my own. Also, constructive criticism goes further than scolding lol 

The divorce process started Oct 2020. My mom died a few days after I got served. Dh’s first lawyer died in the hospital after months of Covid & coma. Then MIL died on our wedding anniversary in Jan. It’s been a weird time. 

I went to a trauma therapist before my current one. I paid $27/month for like a year to complete the Leslie Vernick Conquer course, too. I’ve done a lot of reading and therapy. 

I had to move out because it’s faculty housing and I’m not the faculty member. Xh pays less in rent rush me and makes more than double what I do. Ds just thinks I’m bad with money. My credit score is excellent (and I got my overdrafts reversed) but I couldn’t buy a house because I couldn’t qualify for the first time home buyer’s grant because xh’s income screwed up my application. Now rates have jumped and they are enrolled in school so I gave up and found a rental to get away from my awful landlord. So a divorce, deaths, and 2 moves… yes it’s been stressful 

 

Oh heart, that is a lot and it all started in 2020 which was already an awful year for everyone. You have every right to be spent, drained, and you are trying. I hear you, I see you, you are expressing how much you are trying. I've seen other kids in situations similar to yours and the mom stays solid and doesn't push the kid away or get bitter and the kid grows up and sees the picture better and truth prevails. Truth will prevail ❤️ You have to believe this, have hope. 

[Elona]

43 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

Ds is like a man that tells you after a year of sitting in the back row of a theatre that he doesn’t like that row lol I can accept the truth but he gives it retroactively and refuses to answer yes/no. Like btw mom that food 2 weeks ago hurt my stomach (thanks for telling me now??? Lol) 

I generally tell my daughter that it is unkind to give feedback if a person can't do anything about it going forward. I also emphasize that I am willing to listen to constructive criticism/feedback, but that rudeness or huffiness are not acceptable. I find myself saying either 'would you like to rephrase that?' Or 'that kind of hurts my feelings . . .' Sometimes kids just need to be checked when they are being hurtful.

I am a child of a dysfunctional family and I had a lot of anger toward my mom for a number of years. (A lot of it was misplaced anger that should have been directed at my Dad.) That said, as a teen she let me be too disrespectful, and it actually hurt our relationship. She allowed me to be condescending and hateful with no real consequences, and it fueled a bad dynamic. I tell my own daughter now that I won't allow such disrespect because our relationship matters too much to me. I try to have this type of talk when things are calm, though! (For the record, mom and I are very close now, and as a young married adult I began to understand that my Dad was to blame for the majority of the dysfunction in our family. But when I was young, mom was the only one I could control to any degree, so I tried my damndest to 'fix' her. We have both apologized a lot to one another for the mistakes we made, and that led to healing.)

I mean, yes, your kid is going through a very tough time and has big emotions and is getting a lot filtered through dad's lense, but you still get to set boundaries for how your kid speaks to you. Do it with a calm, firm tone. Express compassion for whatever might be underneath the rude, hurtful comments, but make sure he knows you expect better. Otherwise how will he learn and grow? We have to learn how to be conscious of our impact on others  even amidst our own pain. Personal pain and anger isn't a free pass to be a jerk, even when you're 14. 

Edited June 9, 2022 by Elona

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, freesia said:

Sometimes it helps just knowing it’s not personal and that you aren’t alone in dealing with an angry, hurt, moody teen. 

THIS!!!! You can vent to us, or if you know other moms with teens, you may want to talk with them too. It truly is HARD. They can really suck sometimes!

43 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

Just for the record no I didn’t think of it as “ds has to earn texts from me”! I just wondered if he even read then because he has a habit of not checking his phone. And worried I was just annoying him.

Honestly, he may be annoyed, but keep sending them. I was annoyed by a TON of stuff my parents did that I also, deep down, knew showed they loved me. Or at least, years later I could look back and realize that it meant they loved me, even if i felt suffocated or annoyed at the time. 

Also, for what it is worth, YOU didn't grow up with healthy role models either, so you could maybe share that with him at some point. Maybe in therapy. That you know he's dealing with a stressful time, and that you are trying to learn yourself, and hope that by him learning better communication and boundaries now he wont' have to go through what you have, or put his kids through what he is going through. You are learning together. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

Just now, ktgrok said:

 

Honestly, he may be annoyed, but keep sending them. I was annoyed by a TON of stuff my parents did that I also, deep down, knew showed they loved me. Or at least, years later I could look back and realize that it meant they loved me, even if i felt suffocated or annoyed at the time. 

 

I was thinking on this earlier, a lot of what we do now for them, we do it knowing that they won't get it now, they may even hate it now, but they will understand later and get it later. It is a long term investment. You're playing the long game here and will likely not see results for many years.

[Corraleno]

BTDT with a really angry 14 yr old after a messy divorce, and I will reiterate what a couple of other BTDT moms said above about starting with a clean slate every day (or whenever you interact with him), and never giving up the drip drip drip of positive attention and reinforcement, even if it seems to be having no effect.

DD was 12 when we divorced, but I don't think it really hit her until those puberty hormones kicked in at 13, and by 14 she was extremely angry at the world in general and me in particular. I had full custody, so we didn't have the back and forth between houses, but that also meant that I got the full brunt of her anger. (Plus she was adopted, so in addition telling me how much she hated me and that I was a terrible mother, I also got "You're not even my real mother!" Talk about a stab to the heart!) There were many times when I feared that our relationship was irreparable, but I tried to start every morning like nothing happened the day before, and I kept doing nice things for her even when she rejected them/didn't acknowledge them/was rude about them.

Even after she moved out at 18, I kept texting her little notes with cute pictures of the dog or funny memes or cartoons, and I'd buy her favorite snacks when I was grocery shopping and leave them in her room for when she'd come by to visit the dog (not me, lol). Eventually she started talking to me, and then began confiding in me about problems she was having with her boyfriend, and then she moved back to the home she previously "couldn't wait to get away from." She's 20 now and we have a great relationship — for the first time since she was little, she got me presents for Mother's Day, with a card "to a really great mom" signed with heart. 

@heartlikealion please hang in there, please keep making those little deposits in his "love bank" that seem to be completely unacknowledged or even rejected right now. Because he won't be 14 forever, and the man he eventually becomes will remember that you never gave up on him. (((hugs)))

 

[heartlikealion]

4 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

THIS!!!! You can vent to us, or if you know other moms with teens, you may want to talk with them too. It truly is HARD. They can really suck sometimes!

Honestly, he may be annoyed, but keep sending them. I was annoyed by a TON of stuff my parents did that I also, deep down, knew showed they loved me. Or at least, years later I could look back and realize that it meant they loved me, even if i felt suffocated or annoyed at the time. 

Also, for what it is worth, YOU didn't grow up with healthy role models either, so you could maybe share that with him at some point. Maybe in therapy. That you know he's dealing with a stressful time, and that you are trying to learn yourself, and hope that by him learning better communication and boundaries now he wont' have to go through what you have, or put his kids through what he is going through. You are learning together. 

I’m not sure what you’re referring to. I did admit to ds once that my father was too critical of me my whole life and that I think I passed that down. After I told him, he told xh and it gave ds another reason to not like my dad. So I felt bad that I made grandpa look bad. 😕 

I also sometimes attend mental health zooms for parents of teens with issues like depression. They are free. It just hasn’t worked out lately for me to join. 

[sgo95]

I'm really sorry you're struggling. I agree with many posters that it would be helpful if you could assume a more mature parental role of not taking what your DS says personally. Vent to friends, vent here, keep pursuing your own personal development, etc...but keep trying with him just for him (not for you to feel better after interactions with him). 

53 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

Xh kept pushing a narrative that I said I wish I didn’t have kids. Ds believed I wished he wasn’t born. I explained in front of the last therapist that he heard me lashing out at xh that I wished I didn’t have kids with him. It got taken out of context but I do realize if you reject a parent they can internalize it as a rejection of half of themselves…. Anyway it’s awful and I regret it and after I explained the whole thing with him his response was as if he didn’t understand. He replied, “two wrongs don’t make a right.” And the therapist said to you understand what your mom meant? And all he could fixate on was that mom was rude to dad? I think. 

I kind of understand why your son believes your XH's narrative. Do you truly understand how hurtful your statement was? Your DS thinks that deep down you wish he and his sister didn't exist, that you resent having this link to your XH.  For his immature heart and mind, I'm not sure that an explanation that you didn't mean that exactly is going to heal that wound.

[heartlikealion]

I haven’t neglected dd. I take her places and eat meals with her even when ds isn’t there or stays in bed etc. He hardly wants to go out.

[heartlikealion]

Everyone is reminding me not to vent to ds. I don’t tell him everything I say here. And obviously (?) I tell my therapists these things. Well if it wasn’t obvious, I do. 

Things I have said to him that retrospectively weren’t helpful: you wanted me to buy that but you haven’t even opened it. It’s been here for weeks. Don’t waste my money.  

So that’s where one disconnect is. 

[heartlikealion]

7 minutes ago, sgo95 said:

I'm really sorry you're struggling. I agree with many posters that it would be helpful if you could assume a more mature parental role of not taking what your DS says personally. Vent to friends, vent here, keep pursuing your own personal development, etc...but keep trying with him just for him (not for you to feel better after interactions with him). 

I kind of understand why your son believes your XH's narrative. Do you truly understand how hurtful your statement was? Your DS thinks that deep down you wish he and his sister didn't exist, that you resent having this link to your XH.  For his immature heart and mind, I'm not sure that an explanation that you didn't mean that exactly is going to heal that wound.

Yes, and I know that one statement isn't the whole reason he dislikes me. It's a series of things and I hope that as he gets older he'll be open to understanding my perspective but I know that right now I just need to worry about trying to make our present good (or neutral) as much as possible.