Updates 2023 (job hunt etc)

[heartlikealion]

(Original thread title: If you love someone, let them go I guess (therapy fail))

My son and I have a strained relationship and have done on/off group therapy (me, ds, therapist) plus individual therapy with different therapists over the past year+. 

He truly believes I was a terrible mom (no, I wasn’t perfect) and that nothing I do now can make things right. I saw a psychologist recently that advised I make him return to group therapy and not make it optional. He suggested 2x a month. All this therapy has been costing money but in the settlement we agreed xh would foot the bill for children’s therapy (we don’t meet the deductible so the out of pocket costs aren’t cheap on the individual. The group therapy I bill to my ins which only requires a copay). We tried group therapy last night again after a month+ break. I was crushed and triggered at the things he said. Accusing me of not caring or making efforts when IMO I’ve done that. He also let me know he doesn’t want to go to the concert with me in Aug (I bought us tickets to see a musician we both like). The therapist basically told me to keep my reactions in check (I literally said I felt like a comment was a slap in my face) and only discuss them outside of our group sessions. 

Part of me feels like I’m being silenced and gaslit. After recently leaving a gaslighter, I don’t have time for this BS. Every visit is a trap. He comes over, complains, then complains about more after he leaves. Settlement says most visits are optional… but summer he was supposed to come every other week. I’ve told xh don’t bother bringing him over unless he asks. 

Originally I was going to have the psych run a diagnostic type test on ds and observe for ASD traits but I think things are way too volatile for that. I may never know some things. Parental alienation may have caused some of this hostility toward me, too. 

I guess I’ll just give up and give space. 

Edited September 14, 2023 by heartlikealion

[heartlikealion]

I told xh we don’t have to schedule anymore appointments, either. 

[Jenny in Florida]

I'm so sorry. I know how deeply painful it is to have strained relationships with your own children. 

The only thing that gets me through some days is reminding myself that relationships require participation from more than one person. There are things I simply cannot fix on my own.

Wishing you some kind of resolution that gives you peace.

[Kassia]

I'm very sorry. That must be so incredibly painful and frustrating. 

We have an adult ds who is an Aspie and he does stuff like this sometimes.  It's really hard.  He always comes around eventually but it's tough and we never know the correct way to handle it and maintain the relationship.  

[catz]

I'm sorry that must be heartbreaking.  How old is he?  

[ktgrok]

How old is he? If he is a child still, please don't give up. He will not remember how horrid he was, he will remember you giving up. In adolescence their brains are crazy, and as the adult we have to be the rock. 

[YaelAldrich]

7 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

How old is he? If he is a child still, please don't give up. He will not remember how horrid he was, he will remember you giving up. In adolescence their brains are crazy, and as the adult we have to be the rock. 

But what does that mean in practice for a mom who is already hurting from a divorce and the prelude to all that?

[Farrar]

Hugs. I would say don't give up, but do give space. For yourself too! He's still a minor, right? Do I recall that he's a teen? There's so much time there. It hurts now, but you have to give space.

Your feelings are legitimate, but it's inherently an unequal relationship - and it always will be, even when he's a fully launched adult. Dealing with your emotions without him makes a lot of sense on its face to me because he can never be the manager or helper for a parent to process emotions. You, on the other hand, are called to that role for him by being his mother. Like I said, unequal and unfair, but also how it is for most parents and children. 

All of that is made worse by the fact that you were in an unequal relationship that should have been equal. Of course you're triggered by this experience. But also, it's not the same. You have to figure out how to work that out and it's not his job as a kid to help you in that process. Even if he's being horrible to you (which it does sound like he is, so don't think I'm minimizing it).

It's good to separate for yourself two things that are simultaneously true. Your intentions were good. His experience of them was not. You have to figure out how to process that. And hopefully he'll mature and come to understand the first part - that's a huge part of becoming an adult. And that's part of him processing his experience. But he probably won't do it successfully unless you fully acknowledge the second part. Again, super unfair when he's not acknowledging the first part. But again, unequal relationships. 

My mom and I are partially/mostly estranged from my brother, who is a good bit younger and I was sometimes a caregiver for when I was young. At least in our situation, the place I've come to and what I tell my mother (and myself) constantly is that you can only control your own actions and you can only process your own feelings. You can't demand things of him. He has to want to give those things. And that it's okay to give and to want to give - your love, your words of affection, your time, your availability, literal gifts, whatever. But that you can't do it with expectations because love is not a quid pro quo. You have to give it freely because you love him. My mother just spent two days making a beautiful small gift for my brother's birthday. She did the same for his kids. No acknowledgement. And I told her, that's okay, that's not why you do it if you love him. 

Edited June 9, 2022 by Farrar

[WildflowerMom]

Is he still doing individual therapy?
 

btw, I would sell the concert tickets, for sure.   I wouldn’t push him to spend time with me at all.   But I would keep doing group and individual therapy.   Is group therapy only available if he’s staying with you?   If so, maybe taking a summer break and spending the summer apart to get a breather might be a good idea.  Pick it up again in the fall.   If group therapy isn’t tied to him staying with you, I’d keep doing it.  
i’m so sorry you’re dealing with this.   💛

[heartlikealion]

He just turned 14. He signed an affidavit (oh sure that was his idea 🙄) saying his preference to live with dad. That was totally unnecessary as his wishes could have simply been conveyed to the GAL. He doesn’t know it but by avoiding court I spared him from a cross examination in the judge’s chambers. It wasn’t some noble act on my part, though. I was advised not to go to court. 

A lot of this is my fault for being too open about my budget. He’s afraid to ask for things because “Mom is broke.” But I asked him repeatedly if he wanted me to make or buy him a dessert for his birthday and he said no, I don’t like sweets. Then later has the nerve to say, “she didn’t even get me a birthday cake.” That’s crazy making!! 

By giving up I just mean not forcing him to come over. My door is open but I need boundaries, too. Don’t come over if you’re just going to “avoid” me (his words).

[Pam in CT]

(( hugs ))

That is so hard and so painful.  And you have to do what you have to do to keep yourself stable and healthy.

 

 

That said, this is also true:

 he won't remember how horrid he was; he'll remember your giving up

4 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

How old is he? If he is a child still, please don't give up. He will not remember how horrid he was, he will remember you giving up. In adolescence their brains are crazy, and as the adult we have to be the rock. 

I would aim to [on the one hand] work out with your own therapist strategies to gray rock in the moment of difficult moments with him / regroup and process on your own...

... but [on the other] ways to keep the pipeline open.  Even if it's limited, even if the ways are more or less unilateral (ie cheerful texts without expectation of response, closing with "Love you!!").  Ways to signal that although you recognize/ acknowledge that the relationship is strained, you haven't given up on it and you won't.

Because whatever grievances he's holding in the moment... pale, in comparison to "my mother gave up on me."

 

(( hugs ))

[ktgrok]

2 minutes ago, YaelAldrich said:

But what does that mean in practice for a mom who is already hurting from a divorce and the prelude to all that?

It means she keeps trying. Because he is the kid, she is the adult. She cannot treat him as if he is an adult as well, and an equal. This kid has likely some neuro atypicality, plus grew up in chaos, and  is navigating his family being broken into two pieces. Now he's acting out in ways that are totally typical for those things, and she is giving up and walking away becaues he complains? Teens without all that stuff going on complain a lot. Doesn't mean we just walk away because they are "gas lighting" us. He's a KID. 

If she was not divorced, and living with him full time, she wouldn't have the option of just not seeing him because he complains too much. It sucks that she's dealing with stuff, but that's not his fault. 

[bolt.]

Don't give up. There is healing power in just being physically proximate to him -- no matter how he behaves. There is healing power in him using group therapy to say his side of things, even though it hurts you.

As a parent persistence and patience are key virtues.

Having him see you (whether he likes it or not) and interact with you is important.

It's also important to do unilateral nice things for him -- even when he claims to not want them.

Keep fighting for four more years. Your choices matter to him. They tell him what he is worth. Don't tell him that his mom kinda feels like she can 'take him or leave him, it's your call' -- because *that* feels like crap, and he will *definitely* take the message to heart.

[heartlikealion]

Let me explain. 

I’m not going to urge him to come over to abuse me. He literally stays up late, sleeps in til noon or later. Refuses to eat sometimes stating, “I’m sad.” Then leaves and later says my food makes him sick. 

Fine. Then don’t come over. 

I’m using the concert tickets if xh has the kids. I’ll go with someone else. 

[WildflowerMom]

i definitely would not force him to come over.  I’d write him letters though.  If he chooses not to read them, fine.   If he has a phone and can text, go that route, instead of the letters so dad doesn’t sabotage.   Tell him your door is always open and you’re always available to him.  i would just chat with him like a friend.  ‘Hey, how was your day.  Mine was ok.  I yada yada yada…  I finally got xyz done!  Took me forever!  The dog’s driving me nuts.  He hates the thunderstorms we’ve been having.’  Just stuff like that every couple days.   At least that’s what i would do.   Nothing overbearing, nothing about the past, just chit chat.   

[Farrar]

2 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

It means she keeps trying. Because he is the kid, she is the adult. She cannot treat him as if he is an adult as well, and an equal. This kid has likely some neuro atypicality, plus grew up in chaos, and  is navigating his family being broken into two pieces. Now he's acting out in ways that are totally typical for those things, and she is giving up and walking away becaues he complains? Teens without all that stuff going on complain a lot. Doesn't mean we just walk away because they are "gas lighting" us. He's a KID. 

If she was not divorced, and living with him full time, she wouldn't have the option of just not seeing him because he complains too much. It sucks that she's dealing with stuff, but that's not his fault. 

I agree with this.

But also, she has to find a balance and way to protect her feelings. She can't be a good mother when she's hurt this much. She has to get to a place where she can be productive in her actions.

I would not give up on your own therapy and healing and processing, heartlikealion.

[heartlikealion]

3 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

It means she keeps trying. Because he is the kid, she is the adult. She cannot treat him as if he is an adult as well, and an equal. This kid has likely some neuro atypicality, plus grew up in chaos, and  is navigating his family being broken into two pieces. Now he's acting out in ways that are totally typical for those things, and she is giving up and walking away becaues he complains? Teens without all that stuff going on complain a lot. Doesn't mean we just walk away because they are "gas lighting" us. He's a KID. 

If she was not divorced, and living with him full time, she wouldn't have the option of just not seeing him because he complains too much. It sucks that she's dealing with stuff, but that's not his fault. 

“keep trying” is vague.

[bolt.]

1 minute ago, heartlikealion said:

Let me explain. 

I’m not going to urge him to come over to abuse me. He literally stays up late, sleeps in til noon or later. Refuses to eat sometimes stating, “I’m sad.” Then leaves and later says my food makes him sick. 

Fine. Then don’t come over. 

I’m using the concert tickets if xh has the kids. I’ll go with someone else. 

That's exactly how my teen acts too. I still reach out to her in kindness every morning and evening.

If that's all it takes for someone to loose their mom's loving presence in their lives, I guess none of our teenagers deserve the things we do for them.

(Sleeping a lot, choosing not to eat, and talking about feeling sick ARE NOT abusive.)

[heartlikealion]

2 minutes ago, WildflowerMom said:

i definitely would not force him to come over.  I’d write him letters though.  If he chooses not to read them, fine.   If he has a phone and can text, go that route, instead of the letters so dad doesn’t sabotage.   Tell him your door is always open and you’re always available to him.  i would just chat with him like a friend.  ‘Hey, how was your day.  Mine was ok.  I yada yada yada…  I finally got xyz done!  Took me forever!  The dog’s driving me nuts.  He hates the thunderstorms we’ve been having.’  Just stuff like that every couple days.   At least that’s what i would do.   Nothing overbearing, nothing about the past, just chit chat.   

The last texts I sent were never acknowledged but I guess I can still send them. 

[Junie]

I'm sorry this is so hard.

What @Farrar said is spot on.  No to giving up.  Yes to giving space.

My parents divorced when I was 4 and it was hard.  I imagine it is much, much harder at 14.  Please give him as much grace as you can.  As hard as this is for you, I imagine it is much harder for him.

When you and your husband divorced, you became like two teams.  And now he is stuck either choosing a team or figuring out how to root for both.  If you and your husband have a poor relationship, for him it will be like having to choose between two fierce rivals -- you really can't root for both.  But if you can have a peaceful divorce, it will be like rooting for two different teams that aren't necessarily fierce rivals -- it's okay to cheer for both teams.

I know it's hard.  But, please, don't give up. :)

[Catwoman]

3 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

It means she keeps trying. Because he is the kid, she is the adult. She cannot treat him as if he is an adult as well, and an equal. This kid has likely some neuro atypicality, plus grew up in chaos, and  is navigating his family being broken into two pieces. Now he's acting out in ways that are totally typical for those things, and she is giving up and walking away becaues he complains? Teens without all that stuff going on complain a lot. Doesn't mean we just walk away because they are "gas lighting" us. He's a KID. 

If she was not divorced, and living with him full time, she wouldn't have the option of just not seeing him because he complains too much. It sucks that she's dealing with stuff, but that's not his fault. 

I agree. And he may be saying hurtful things in therapy, but isn't that the idea? Get everything out into the open so you can work on the problems? 

He is just a kid, and he's entitled to his feelings. He's not gaslighting anyone -- this is his reality! And maybe he does feel like his dad has always been there for him and his mom hasn't, so now is the time to prove him wrong. This poor child is in pain. Mom needs to be the adult here and continue the therapy sessions and the visits, and show this kid that she's not giving up on him. 

 

[heartlikealion]

Just now, bolt. said:

That's exactly how my teen acts too. I still reach out to her in kindness every morning and evening.

If that's all it takes for someone to loose their mom's loving presence in their lives, I guess none of our teenagers deserve the things we do for them.

(Sleeping a lot, choosing not to eat, and talking about feeling sick ARE NOT abusive.)

He says, “I sleep in to avoid you. I stay up late to avoid you. Coming over here makes me sad.” 

I took the day off work on his birthday. I suggested weeks ahead we do something. He said maybe the smash it place. I said I’d take him. He didn’t want to go with me. I gave him a gift card for the place said go with your dad. Then he acts like I didn’t acknowledge his birthday. 

[YaelAldrich]

5 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

It means she keeps trying. Because he is the kid, she is the adult. She cannot treat him as if he is an adult as well, and an equal. This kid has likely some neuro atypicality, plus grew up in chaos, and  is navigating his family being broken into two pieces. Now he's acting out in ways that are totally typical for those things, and she is giving up and walking away becaues he complains? Teens without all that stuff going on complain a lot. Doesn't mean we just walk away because they are "gas lighting" us. He's a KID. 

If she was not divorced, and living with him full time, she wouldn't have the option of just not seeing him because he complains too much. It sucks that she's dealing with stuff, but that's not his fault. 

I agree she keeps the door open and she keeps trying to establish a good relationship.  But I have a kid(now young adult) like that  and it is...difficult to willingly stab yourself in the leg over and over again. Teens complain, that's for sure.  I have no more children in the house, only teens.  I think a parent in this situation needs to have some boundaries that give some small amount of protection.  In my opinion, I cannot give if the cup is not only empty but the cup is now broken.

 

[heartlikealion]

2 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

I agree. And he may be saying hurtful things in therapy, but isn't that the idea? Get everything out into the open so you can work on the problems? 

He is just a kid, and he's entitled to his feelings. He's not gaslighting anyone -- this is his reality! And maybe he does feel like his dad has always been there for him and his mom hasn't, so now is the time to prove him wrong. This poor child is in pain. Mom needs to be the adult here and continue the therapy sessions and the visits, and show this kid that she's not giving up on him. 

 

Gaslighting — saying I didn’t acknowledge his birthday even though I offered to get him a dessert and gave him a gift card and repeatedly offered to take him out. 

[heartlikealion]

In therapy the therapist asked what is motivating you to be here and work on this relationship and he said “nothing. I don’t want to.”

I’ve been hold there’s no point in therapy with an unwilling participant. 

Edited June 9, 2022 by heartlikealion

[maize]

He's a kid who has recently been through parental divorce preceded by years of unhealthy family relationships. 

It isn't surprising that his emotions are a mess and that he is saying inconsistent and irrational things.

None of that is anything you can fix, so in a way I think I understand what you are saying--you can't force a positive relationship, so just accepting that things are where they are may be the best you can do. That, and keep working on your own mental health, and keeping a place of empathy and compassion in your heart for him. 

I would try to keep whatever doors open you can for relating to him. Process your feelings about how he is relating or not relating to you with your therapist, and do what you can to not resent him and the irrational stuff he says.

((()))

[Jaybee]

I'm so sorry. Strained relationships with our kids is so stressful and hurtful, especially when it seems that nothing we do makes it better. Keep going for your individual therapy. For therapy for him, he has to want it for it to work. Reading your posts over the years, it sounds like he has some neurodivergent characteristics, plus he is living with his father, who does as well, so he has seen how that functions in a relationship (not good), and that is his norm. I agree with others that you shouldn't just "give up." But I disagree with some others that it means you have to keep doing the same things and let him keep disrespecting you over and over. Honestly, I am not sure what you should do about the visits and the group therapy. I do agree with @WildflowerMom about sending him notes reminding him that you love him, etc. It sounds like he is very disgruntled with life in general, and blaming you for it. 

I'm going to send you a PM, too.

Hugs, Lion.

 

[Junie]

2 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

He says, “I sleep in to avoid you. I stay up late to avoid you. Coming over here makes me sad.” 

I took the day off work on his birthday. I suggested weeks ahead we do something. He said maybe the smash it place. I said I’d take him. He didn’t want to go with me. I gave him a gift card for the place said go with your dad. Then he acts like I didn’t acknowledge his birthday. 

Of course it makes him sad.  It's a reminder that your family is no longer whole.

And as for his birthday -- I'm sorry that it was difficult.  If cake is part of your family tradition, maybe he just wanted the tradition (not the actual cake).  Part of the difficulty for him (and for you as well) is that he doesn't know how to express his feelings about all of this.  And so sometimes he expresses his feelings in the best way he knows how without realizing that he is hurting you.  Please don't see the hurt that comes from him as intentional.  He is likely trying to figure this out the best he can.

 

[WildflowerMom]

Just now, heartlikealion said:

The last texts I sent were never acknowledged but I guess I can still send them. 

I absolutely would.  I wouldn’t stop for any reason.  No matter how pissed you are.   And never be confrontational on them.  Make the texts a safe space, whether you feel like it or not.   Maybe sometimes end with something like,  ‘I’d love to go to lunch with you if you’d like to sometime!  I miss seeing you!’  I’d also probably send him a simple good night text every night, but that’s just me.   But I still wouldn’t force him to come over.    Ease back into the relationship, let him get his bearings in all this.  What if you compromised and said he doesn’t have to come over, but we do have to have lunch together once a month or every couple of weeks?  Would he go for that?   

All that said, I’d still do group therapy, if it’s possible.  And definitely push him doing individual and you doing individual.   

[livetoread]

4 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

But I asked him repeatedly if he wanted me to make or buy him a dessert for his birthday and he said no, I don’t like sweets. Then later has the nerve to say, “she didn’t even get me a birthday cake.” That’s crazy making!! 

It absolutely is, especially for someone like me for whom accuracy matters. My brain would go straight to "But that's not true!" and I'd be right, but it isn't helpful in a situation like that. I think what is most helpful is trying to get at the feeling behind what he is saying, even when you know it isn't factual. So instead of, "But I asked you..." a response could be, "And you were disappointed by that?" or some other guess as to what he was feeling. Once he feels understood, (repeatedly because it takes time) then he might be ready to move on to processing the thing - like asking "Here's what I remember happening, I asked you if you wanted anything and you said no. I understood that to mean no, but should I not have? What can I do differently for next time?" And not snarky but seriously wanting to know. 

Your therapist is there for you to vent away at how unfair it is (because it is) and how you have to do so much of the mature work in the relationship (you do and it sucks) and how you feel gaslit (your son isn't your ex but feelings are feelings) etc. You have been badly hurt by your ex and now by your son, but it is vital you separate those relationships. He's a kid and floundering in a lot of pain and not coping with it well or fairly, but he's a kid. You can fight for that relationship but it's going to mean putting your needs aside when talking with him and listening like a pro and reflecting back what he is feeling, not what you are feeling. What you are feeling belongs outside of that relationship right now.

[Farrar]

One of the things to know is that many 14 yos who are in totally healthy, functioning families, who have no serious issues are ALSO behaving this way with their mothers and also say these sorts of things, including these wild contradictory things. I know that your experience has you hyperalert to this stuff and also deeply triggered by it. But this is relatively normal and if you were in a supportive relationship with a partner, it wouldn't feel this hurtful. 

A 14 yo's brain is doing a lot of the same things that a toddler's brain is doing. On some level, yes, he's gaslighting you and he's imitating his father, I'm sure. But on another level, he's like the toddler who demands a certain snack a certain way, then has a tantrum when you give it to them. 

[Catwoman]

Just now, heartlikealion said:

Gaslighting — saying I didn’t acknowledge his birthday even though I offered to get him a dessert and gave him a gift card and repeatedly offered to take him out. 

But he's 14.

He's a KID.

Kids say stupid things. And he's ANGRY. He just is. He needs that therapy as much as you do. It's almost like you see some similarities between him and your ex, so you're ready to divorce your son, too, just to make your own life easier. That's not fair to your son.

Honestly, I think you're expecting too much of him. He hasn't only been stuck dealing with his parents' separation and divorce; he had no control over any of it. Can you imagine how helpless a feeling that must have been for him? He's lashing out at you, but I'll bet that deep inside, what he wants most is for you to never let him go. Prove to him that you are there for him. He is your child. He needs his mother, even if he doesn't want to acknowledge that right now.

I really think you need to be the parent here and not give up just because this is hard right now. 

 

 

[heartlikealion]

I paused my individual therapy briefly as I finish my group narcissistic abuse recovery therapy course. I was meeting with my individual therapist weekly. 

The group therapist tried to force ds to use yes/no responses but ds says things like, “if you want to go, I’ll go.” “If you make that for dinner, I’ll eat it.” He hides his real thoughts then later says, “I didn’t like that food” etc 

[Junie]

With the concert -- if you find someone else to go with you, please let them know that this ticket is really for your son.  And I would keep that open until the last possible moment.  Maybe he will change his mind and want to go with you.  And you need to keep that ticket available for him.  Because if he decides that he wants to go and you've given the ticket to someone else? That will be a hurt that will take years to fix. 😞

Going forward, though, I wouldn't focus on doing special things with him.  I would focus on doing ordinary things with him.  Like watching a tv show that you both like (or at least one that he likes).  Or going to a certain restaurant/drive thru that you used to go to before the separation.  Or whatever.  Something normal.  Not something special.  I think that's what would mean the most to him.

[Catwoman]

2 minutes ago, Farrar said:

One of the things to know is that many 14 yos who are in totally healthy, functioning families, who have no serious issues are ALSO behaving this way with their mothers and also say these sorts of things, including these wild contradictory things. I know that your experience has you hyperalert to this stuff and also deeply triggered by it. But this is relatively normal and if you were in a supportive relationship with a partner, it wouldn't feel this hurtful. 

A 14 yo's brain is doing a lot of the same things that a toddler's brain is doing. On some level, yes, he's gaslighting you and he's imitating his father, I'm sure. But on another level, he's like the toddler who demands a certain snack a certain way, then has a tantrum when you give it to them. 

I agree. And this poor kid is dealing with all of the crazy teenage boy hormonal stuff in addition to years of terrible emotional stress due to his parents' terrible relationship and divorce.

I think this boy needs A LOT of grace for his behavior. I can't understand why Heart would quit the therapy sessions with her son. It might be their only way to clear the air -- and she really needs to hear her son's feelings about things, even if they are painful or seem inaccurate to her. If she doesn't listen and acknowledge his feelings, they will never be able to meet in the middle and work things out. 

[heartlikealion]

Everyone is saying how hard this must be for him with the divorce but it feels like he wanted me gone so maybe me living there was the hard part more so than this. I don’t know. My brain is processing. 

Maybe I was venting and chose words poorly. Giving up more so in the sense of not pushing the therapy or the visits. Not that I give up on loving him. 

[bolt.]

9 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

Gaslighting — saying I didn’t acknowledge his birthday even though I offered to get him a dessert and gave him a gift card and repeatedly offered to take him out. 

Gaslighting is when a person with full self-control and clear knowledge of information and facts intentionally chooses to mislead another person who is under their power and at risk of believing the gaslighter's version of events at the expense of their own sanity.

What is happening here is simply that your son has emotion-focused memories that fixate on the negative. When he honestly expresses his lived experiences, those experiences don't include your kind offers or your good intentions. They just include how his birthday disappointed him, and he thinks you should have done a better job.

Telling the truth (as one sees it) from a slanted and fragmented memory is *not* gaslighting -- even if one's 'truth' isn't actually in line with the facts (or with another person's memories).

People remember things differently all the time. It doesn't mean they are both gaslighters. It just means that memories are much more personalized than we fact-oriented folks give them credit for.

[Scarlett]

9 minutes ago, maize said:

He's a kid who has recently been through parental divorce preceded by years of unhealthy family relationships. 

It isn't surprising that his emotions are a mess and that he is saying inconsistent and irrational things.

None of that is anything you can fix, so in a way I think I understand what you are saying--you can't force a positive relationship, so just accepting that things are where they are may be the best you can do. That, and keep working on your own mental health, and keeping a place of empathy and compassion in your heart for him. 

I would try to keep whatever doors open you can for relating to him. Process your feelings about how he is relating or not relating to you with your therapist, and do what you can to not resent him and the irrational stuff he says.

((()))

This. Dh went through this with his oldest. It is horrible. Dss eventually came around but it took about 7 years. It started with dss when he was 15. 
 

So I would  say I agree to not give up but you definitely have to give space. 

[Catwoman]

1 minute ago, Junie said:

With the concert -- if you find someone else to go with you, please let them know that this ticket is really for your son.  And I would keep that open until the last possible moment.  Maybe he will change his mind and want to go with you.  And you need to keep that ticket available for him.  Because if he decides that he wants to go and you've given the ticket to someone else? That will be a hurt that will take years to fix. 😞

Going forward, though, I wouldn't focus on doing special things with him.  I would focus on doing ordinary things with him.  Like watching a tv show that you both like (or at least one that he likes).  Or going to a certain restaurant/drive thru that you used to go to before the separation.  Or whatever.  Something normal.  Not something special.  I think that's what would mean the most to him.

Yes! It honestly seems a little spiteful to already be giving up on taking her son to the concert. If she knows he will enjoy it once they get there, it might even be something to insist on doing together during one of his visits.

I absolutely agree about doing normal things together. This kid probably needs routine, normalcy, and a place where he knows he is safe and loved, more than anything else!

[heartlikealion]

He has made it clear umpteen times he hates all forms of therapy. 

[Scarlett]

11 minutes ago, Farrar said:

One of the things to know is that many 14 yos who are in totally healthy, functioning families, who have no serious issues are ALSO behaving this way with their mothers and also say these sorts of things, including these wild contradictory things. I know that your experience has you hyperalert to this stuff and also deeply triggered by it. But this is relatively normal and if you were in a supportive relationship with a partner, it wouldn't feel this hurtful. 

A 14 yo's brain is doing a lot of the same things that a toddler's brain is doing. On some level, yes, he's gaslighting you and he's imitating his father, I'm sure. But on another level, he's like the toddler who demands a certain snack a certain way, then has a tantrum when you give it to them. 

True. Very very true 

[Catwoman]

1 minute ago, heartlikealion said:

Everyone is saying how hard this must be for him with the divorce but it feels like he wanted me gone so maybe me living there was the hard part more so than this. I don’t know. My brain is processing. 

Maybe I was venting and chose words poorly. Giving up more so in the sense of not pushing the therapy or the visits. Not that I give up on loving him. 

But how will he know that you love him if you give up on the therapy and the visits? He will assume that you don't want him any more if you don't insist on those things. Maybe he wants you to fight for him. Maybe he felt like you abandoned him during the divorce and needs you to prove to him that you are really there for him and that he can count on you to never leave him again.

Please keep reminding yourself that he is still a child, with the emotions and reasoning capabilities of a child. Please don't make this poor kid believe that you are throwing him away.

[heartlikealion]

No I haven’t offered anyone the ticket. I would wait til it got closer and they would know it was his. Just like the smash place— he said he wants to go with dad, not me. I even offered both concert tickets to them. 

Edited June 9, 2022 by heartlikealion

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, heartlikealion said:

He has made it clear umpteen times he hates all forms of therapy. 

My experience is that forced  therapy is never helpful 

[Junie]

1 minute ago, heartlikealion said:

He has made it clear umpteen times he hates all forms of therapy. 

So maybe give up on the therapy.

I never went to therapy.  Would it have helped? Maybe? But, maybe not.

It could be that therapy is making it worse for him -- just another reminder that his life isn't normal.  So maybe quit pushing therapy and just work on doing whatever is normal.

[WildflowerMom]

1 minute ago, heartlikealion said:

He has made it clear umpteen times he hates all forms of therapy. 

I still would force the therapy.   But maybe a new therapist could help? 

[bolt.]

2 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

Everyone is saying how hard this must be for him with the divorce but it feels like he wanted me gone so maybe me living there was the hard part more so than this. I don’t know. My brain is processing. 

Maybe I was venting and chose words poorly. Giving up more so in the sense of not pushing the therapy or the visits. Not that I give up on loving him. 

Without seeing you (visits) or talking to you about how he feels (therapy), or your continued expressions that you desperately *want* to see him, know him, and listen to him, I can't see how any kid would continue to believe you love him.

He may already believe that you don't love him.

You may be starting from scratch and fighting through a thousand barriers to prove your love.

And this sounds like you were (briefly) tempted to give up at the first hurdle. I'm glad you are giving it some more thought.

[Catwoman]

2 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

He has made it clear umpteen times he hates all forms of therapy. 

Apparently, so do you! Therapy can be painful. I don't blame you or your son for hating it. But you both need to explore all of the negative feelings and emotions if you're going to get past all of this. 

Also, he really needs this therapy so he doesn't have completely messed-up relationships as an adult. This isn't just about you and your relationship with him. This is about his LIFE. Trust issues don't magically go away. Abandonment issues can stay with a person for life. This kid has been emotionally traumatized and he needs help so he can learn to deal with it in a healthy way.

[heartlikealion]

He knows I paid a lawyer for over a year to fight for joint (or more) custody. I would hope he’s know by now I fought. I literally told him before you know if I didn’t care I would r be paying a lawyer to fight for time with you. 

It apparently means nothing 

[WildflowerMom]

1 minute ago, Junie said:

So maybe give up on the therapy.

I never went to therapy.  Would it have helped? Maybe? But, maybe not.

It could be that therapy is making it worse for him -- just another reminder that his life isn't normal.  So maybe quit pushing therapy and just work on doing whatever is normal.

Really?  Well, maybe quitting for the summer, Heart, and see how it goes.