Child support and college question

[Tap]

I have a guy friend whose son is starting college in the fall. He currently pays almost $1000 in child support each month. His income is about 108,000/yr. He is raising and has sole custody of another son (different mom) so the $1000 is doable, but it is still a lot. We live in a HCOL area. The bio-mom of the child he pays support for doesn't work, but has been remarried for years and the step father is well paid. When it comes to child support here, the spouses income doesn't factor in.  The bio-mom, wants him to continue paying child support and also help pay for college expenses. The student will play football in college and got a partial scholarship because of it. 

My friend never sees his son. They live 5 hours apart, so short get reacquainted visits aren't feasible. The bio-mom discouraged the relationship, making barriers. The son found excuses to not see the father. My friend was Navy and was deployed for large chunks of the child's upbringing. He hasn't seen him in 2 years. 

He feels the son should be working to help pay for college and that he shouldn't be paying for college on top of child support. He doesn't complain about child support. He just doesn't want to help pay for college for someone he doesn't have a relationship with. Child support order, just says to continue CS during college years. He is afraid that if he refuses, she may take him to court and his child support could get raised.

 

Any BTDT advice? 

Edited May 31, 2022 by Tap

[Scarlett]

7 minutes ago, Tap said:

I have a guy friend whose son is starting college in the fall. He currently pays almost $1000 in child support each month. His income is about 108,000/yr. He is raising and has sole custody of another son (different mom) so the $1000 is doable, but it is still a lot. We live in a HCOL area. The bio-mom of the child he pays support for doesn't work, but has been remarried for years and the step father is well paid. When it comes to child support here, the spouses income doesn't factor in.  The bio-mom, wants him to continue paying child support and also help pay for college expenses. The student will play football in college and got a partial scholarship because of it. 

My friend never sees his son. They live 5 hours apart, so short get reacquainted visits aren't feasible. The bio-mom discouraged the relationship, making barriers. The son found excuses to not see the father. My friend was Navy and was deployed for large chunks of the child's upbringing. He hasn't seen him in 2 years. 

He feels the son should be working to help pay for college and that he shouldn't be paying for college on top of child support. He doesn't complain about child support. He just doesn't want to help pay for college for someone he doesn't have a relationship with. Child support order, just says to continue CS during college years. He is afraid that if he refuses, she may take him to court and his child support could get raised.

 

Any BTDT advice? 

 I am surprised your friend has to pay cs through college. As regards paying for college he could just say, ‘ that won’t work for me.’ I would not tie any support to seeing or not seeing the young man…..that gets twisted very quickly.  
 

My xh paid me cs until high school graduation.  Then he paid for college and a car.  I am super happy about that but I had zero control over any of that.  

[Corraleno]

18 minutes ago, Tap said:

He feels the son should be working to help pay for college and that he shouldn't be paying for college on top of child support. He doesn't complain about child support. He just doesn't want to help pay for college for someone he doesn't have a relationship with. Child support order, just says to continue CS during college years. He is afraid that if he refuses, she may take him to court and his child support could get raised.

I think if it's in the original custody and support order, he will need to continue paying it regardless of the lack of relationship. There are plenty of men who have no relationship at all with their kids who still have to pay support, that is not a factor in assignment of child support.

Twenty-five states have laws that allow the court to force noncustodial parents to pay for college expenses (beyond just continuing support payments), so he might want to talk to a lawyer about whether he could be forced to pay a lot more than $12K/yr if his ex and/or son sued him for additional college costs. This article lists the states that allow that, and it explains some of the issues involved:
https://www.einhornlawyers.com/blog/family-law/will-pay-college-expenses-children-not/

[Murphy101]

If he isn’t obligated to pay anything but would like to help his son through college, I think he should pay the 1000 a month directly to his son only while son is in college.  I think he should call his son and talk to him directly about it.  And to note. I don’t think he should even mention the mother if it’s at all possible to avoid it. 

Edited May 31, 2022 by Murphy101

[Bootsie]

In my state, CS generally ends whenever the child turns 18 and graduates from high school (whichever comes later).  There is also standard wording that the parent will pay 1/2 of the tuition to go to the nearest public university.  I always find this a bit odd because children of parents who have remained married are not guaranteed that their parents are responsible for university tuition.  

Am I understanding that there is an order in place that he continue child support?  If so, does the order specify how that is to be paid?  Whatever support he is required to provide, or chooses to provide, I would suggest that he pay that directly to the son rather than to the other parent at this point so that it is clear to the son regarding where the support is coming from.

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

It’s super state dependent.  I have a friend who thought he was done paying CS now because his son just turned 18, and since the son lives in Florida he thought he was off the hook at 18. He has no relationship with the son—the son was his ex wife’s from a former relationship and he adopted him, and son now has redeveloped a relationship with bio dad.  But my friend is still on the hook for CS until the kid is 21 because it falls under NY law, which requires CS until 21.

And several states require non custodial parents to help pay for college expenses and it can be written into the order anyway.  So it’s all going to be very circumstances dependent.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Mrs Tiggywinkle

[catz]

This is highly dependent on state laws.  Generally if it is in the arrangement when custody and support are set up, there would be no reason to change it.   The kid is an adult now and will get to choose his own relationships. The father is at least partially responsible for lack of relationship.   The current college financial aid system and pricing structures are dependent on parental help.  So if he can afford to help and doesn’t, I think he is being irresponsible regardless of relationship.   He may want to set it up so he can directly pay to the school instead of routing through his ex.  

[Spryte]

What does the court order say? It doesn’t really matter what the bio mom wants, what matters is the court order and state laws.

It sounds like the court order says he is to pay child support through the college years? If so, that’s not negotiable, regardless of his relationship with the son.

If the CO doesn’t address paying a portion of college expenses as well, then that part is more negotiable, and your friend can do what he thinks best — preferably after a conversation with bio mom and son, so everyone is on the same page. They will need to find out how this affects son’s FAFSA, too. Paying directly to school or son may feel better to friend, as well. 

If the child lives in a state is known for having non-custodial parents pay for college, there’s a chance that the BM a could take your friend back to court for college expenses — and she could win. I can’t recall which states tend to require college costs — I can only remember MA. I think it’s just a handful of states, but it does occasionally happen. So I would really encourage friend to talk to son and bio mom about the topic.

[footballmom]

My order of operations would be: reread court order for what I was obligated to (cs + college, cs only - until what age), then contact my attorney to get their advice on state’s approach and their antidotal experience, then conversation with bio mom and child.  The reminder it may affect FAFSA is a great call out and may shut down bio mom if that would change FAFSA and other arrangements they have made. 

[City Mouse]

I agree that he needs to talk to his lawyer about what is required. On the other hand if he would like to hope to have more contact with his son later, he may want to keep up some contributions. He could pay directly to the college if he prefers.

[Annie G]

I think he’s stuck with child support, but it might be worth a consultation with an attorney because if the order truly says ‘through the college years’ it sounds vague. What if the kid takes 6 years to graduate? What if he goes to grad school? What if he stops going to school after 2 years….will she ask that he continue to pay a few more years  since he’s college age? 

I’m not familiar with states that award both child support and contribution to college,  but if that’s a possibility where he lives I’d guess his lawyer will tell him about what to expect financially.  Even more reason to get legal advice before he engages with the bio mom.

It stinks that she has made it hard for him to have a relationship w the kid, but now that he’s an adult and will be off at school, maybe he can become reacquainted via texts. 
 

[KidsHappen]

If the court order requires continuing support through college then he will need to continue paying it to the mother as long as the child is in college probably through a bachelor's degree. If he is not currently required to pay college costs he should simply tell the mother he can't afford it but he should not go back to court because it is likely that he would then be ordered to pay college costs as well. I think parents should decide if they can afford or are willing to pay for college.

I do not like the way college financing works. Based on the age of my dds most years at least two of them were college age at any given time through the college years and very little allowance was made for the fact that we had more than one child in college and my hubby went back for his master's at the same time. I don't remember exactly but for instance if we were required to contribute 15% towards college costs, it was 15% for each person. There was some allowance made but it was not a lot.

 

[katilac]

Practically speaking, he needs to ask a lawyer to review his agreement and tell him what is likely to happen. He might be thanking his lucky stars for his prior luck after that, bc in my state he would be paying $2250 a month. 

Ethically speaking, it's still his son, who didn't choose to have his parents divorce and live five hours apart. You have a child, you raise a child, and give him as good a start in life as possible. 

Emotionally speaking, 18 is way too young to give up on having a relationship with your son. To repeat, the kid did not request that his parents get divorced and live five hours apart. It's entirely too much to expect a minor to constantly buck the wishes of the custodial parent, and honestly it doesn't sound like dad was doing a stellar job of staying in touch. That burden is on him, not the son. If your kid doesn't want to come to you, you go to them. If they won't see you when you go to them, you send them gifts, cards, texts. It is always on the parent to do everything possible to let the kid know they are loved and wanted. 

Why can't they have short visits to get reacquainted? They're five hours apart, not five thousand miles. Planes are a thing. Five hours driving each way can be done on a weekend, and very easily done on a long weekend. 

I do think he should talk to a lawyer and ask about what is expected, what would be the usual, what he should offer.  My kids had quite low college costs, and they still cost us way over $12,000 a year. Kids are expensive. 

Edited June 1, 2022 by katilac

[katilac]

9 hours ago, Scarlett said:

 I am surprised your friend has to pay cs through college. As regards paying for college he could just say, ‘ that won’t work for me.’  
 

I mean, he could say that, but she could potentially bring it to court. He needs to have a lawyer review his agreement and let him know what the usual expectations are and how a judge is likely to rule. He might find out that the help they are asking for is reasonable. He also might find out that he doesn't have to pay anything beyond CS, but it's his kid and I think he should. 

9 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

If he isn’t obligated to pay anything but would like to help his son through college, I think he should pay the 1000 a month directly to his son only while son is in college. 

He can't just decide to do that, he has to follow the agreement or get it altered. 

9 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

It’s super state dependent.  I have a friend who thought he was done paying CS now because his son just turned 18, and since the son lives in Florida he thought he was off the hook at 18. He has no relationship with the son—the son was his ex wife’s from a former relationship and he adopted him, and son now has redeveloped a relationship with bio dad.  But my friend is still on the hook for CS until the kid is 21 because it falls under NY law, which requires CS until 21.

I really dislike wording it as him being "on the hook" until the kid is 21. It's his kid, who did not request that his parents get divorced and live across the country from each other. You have a kid, you raise a kid. 

[freesia]

Wouldn’t at least 8 months if the CS count as part of his college contribution? 8,000 would almost  cover room and board at the school. I do think it would be nice for him to contribute more, but I can see the CS at this age being a way to contribute to college. 

[Murphy101]

42 minutes ago, katilac said:

 

He can't just decide to do that, he has to follow the agreement or get it altered. 

 

If he is not obligated by law to do anything, then, yes, he can still decide to help his son through college.

The court agreement says what he has to do, not that he can’t do more if he wants to. 

Edited June 1, 2022 by Murphy101

[Lawyer&Mom]

It’s time for this guy to own his relationship with his son.  The son didn’t choose to have dad deploy.  The son didn’t choose his parents divorce, or where his parents lived afterwards.  Mom obstructed their relationship?  Great news, the kid is over 18 and mom doesn’t need to have any involvement in their communication.

At the very least he should do it for his other son, so that he can have a relationship with his brother.

 

[katilac]

58 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

If he is not obligated by law to do anything, then, yes, he can still decide to help his son through college.

The court agreement says what he has to do, not that he can’t do more if he wants to. 

Oh, I thought you meant if he isn't obligated to do anything in addition to child support. Like, pay actual ordered child support to his son instead of the mom. Apparently my brain is done comprehending things today!

[Janeway]

The father definitely should not be paying the bio mom anything. The son should be filing a FAFSA. if the father wants to help out, then the father should do it directly to the son or the school but not to the bio mom. I wouldn’t pay.

[maize]

Playing football for a college is essentially working a job, with the scholarship as his salary. It's a lot of hours every week for training and practice, and for games during football season. I would not want to pressure a kid to work on top of that or his schooling could suffer.

Edited June 1, 2022 by maize

[Tap]

To answer a few questions/comments.

I forgot he went to watch him play earlier in the year, but the two times before that, when friend drove 5 hours to see son, son backed out at the last minute. That is part of why it makes it hard for him to see him. As an older teen, he can control if he sees his dad or not. He is choosing not to. Friend does text, teen is hit and miss on replying. Friend tries to reach out ahead of time when he is going to be in the area, son either doesn't reply or isn't available. Friend wants a relationship and is trying to work on that. Teen shuts it down.

Friend isn't saying that son has to work at the same time as playing football, but could work in the off season, to help pay for his own college.  

Mom moved the kid away from friend. They are rural, so flights don't make the trip shorter. The area they live in is very unstable economically. Friends industry doesn't exist there ( even with other similar industry jobs, he wouldn't make half of what he does at his current job), and he doesn't want the son who lives with him, to grow up there.

$12,000 isn't enough to pay for college, but mom should be paying half, which brings that up to $24,000 and with the scholarship and knowing the tuition/living expenses in that area, it should be more than enough to live on. He is fine paying the $12,000 child support. What he struggles with is paying for college too. Who will the child support go to, if the student lives at college year round (needs to be there in summer for training).  Friend wants son to look into scholarships that he is eligible for, and after he gets that number he will sit down with mom/son and talk about $$. We live in Portland, Oregon where there are many colleges with his major. He could attend one and live with friend. 

Friend didn't pay for his other kids college. But did help them when they needed it. He doesn't mind helping, but he doesn't believe college is for everyone and that while the student did get a bit of a scholarship, he doesn't want to be paying college tuition, just so the son can play college football. There are less expensive colleges, that he could go to, but he wouldn't be playing football, so son won't consider them. 

 

[QueenCat]

4 hours ago, Tap said:

Who will the child support go to, if the student lives at college year round (needs to be there in summer for training). 

 

This is what he needs to discuss with his attorney. He shouldn't just change who he pays it to without legal direction. Court order may still say it gets paid to mom, to be used for son. She could still choose it to pay towards son's living expenses and not tuition. This guy needs legal advise, even if it costs him some $.

[Scarlett]

4 hours ago, Tap said:

To answer a few questions/comments.

I forgot he went to watch him play earlier in the year, but the two times before that, when friend drove 5 hours to see son, son backed out at the last minute. That is part of why it makes it hard for him to see him. As an older teen, he can control if he sees his dad or not. He is choosing not to. Friend does text, teen is hit and miss on replying. Friend tries to reach out ahead of time when he is going to be in the area, son either doesn't reply or isn't available. Friend wants a relationship and is trying to work on that. Teen shuts it down.

Friend isn't saying that son has to work at the same time as playing football, but could work in the off season, to help pay for his own college.  

Mom moved the kid away from friend. They are rural, so flights don't make the trip shorter. The area they live in is very unstable economically. Friends industry doesn't exist there ( even with other similar industry jobs, he wouldn't make half of what he does at his current job), and he doesn't want the son who lives with him, to grow up there.

$12,000 isn't enough to pay for college, but mom should be paying half, which brings that up to $24,000 and with the scholarship and knowing the tuition/living expenses in that area, it should be more than enough to live on. He is fine paying the $12,000 child support. What he struggles with is paying for college too. Who will the child support go to, if the student lives at college year round (needs to be there in summer for training).  Friend wants son to look into scholarships that he is eligible for, and after he gets that number he will sit down with mom/son and talk about $$. We live in Portland, Oregon where there are many colleges with his major. He could attend one and live with friend. 

Friend didn't pay for his other kids college. But did help them when they needed it. He doesn't mind helping, but he doesn't believe college is for everyone and that while the student did get a bit of a scholarship, he doesn't want to be paying college tuition, just so the son can play college football. There are less expensive colleges, that he could go to, but he wouldn't be playing football, so son won't consider them. 

 

So it sounds like the son and mother want a college experience paid for more than an education.  I can’t fathom how a court would require him to do that…..I honestly don’t get how a court can make a father pay cs support past age 18 or high school graduation.  As someone up thread mentioned intact families are not required to support their kids beyond that.  
 

XH and I agreed he would pay for college and I would continue to provide him room and board and his phone and tolls etc.  We did not give ds the option of paying for him to move out on his own.  Also I spent weeks—months—— researching the best option for ds so that he could live at home thus reducing costs.  It was no easy task especially considering I was new to this area and it is very rural.  We took advantage of 2 years of CC and then a satellite campus for his last two years.  Xh had been paying over $1000 per months for cs so he was able to put that toward college costs instead.   
 

I hope your friend finds a good solution.  And it is painful when a legal adult wants financial help from a parent but can’t give them the bare minimum of a relationship. Although I will say my ‘intact family’ friends complain about the same things….young adults not answering texts etc.  

[maize]

5 hours ago, Tap said:

Friend isn't saying that son has to work at the same time as playing football, but could work in the off season, to help pay for his own college.  

My cousin who played college football was nearly as busy during the off-season as during football season. They train year-round.

[gardenmom5]

Through college should be defined.  through four year BS?  what if he changes majors?  what if he does grad school?  what happens if he "takes a year off to travel, and then goes to college"?
I'd take it back to court to get a definition.

I wouldn't pay the college costs - the son will appreciate his education more if he has to actually work for it. and probably not goof off as much either.

[Arcadia]

My well to do cousin agreed to pay for four years of commuter state university for his kids with ex-wife. His ex-wife works and isn’t money minded. She just bank the child support for each kid for the kid and use her income and alimony to raise them. She didn’t remarry anyway. If my nephew and nieces wanted to go to a more expensive university, they can pay the difference. My cousin abandoned his kids and first wife for his current wife years before divorcing so the relationship was already sour. His kids do know about the divorce agreement so they knew how much their dad paid. My other cousin who is amiably divorced is an undischarged bankrupt and so their kid qualifies for aid since his ex-wife doesn’t earn much. 
 

In your friend’s case, he should consult his lawyer. If his ex-wife takes him to court, he can always request for child support to be used for meal plans and/or dorm. 

[catz]

Financial aid systems are not designed now for students to be able to pay their way through.  That may be fine for kids whose families qualify for steep financial aid.  I think federal loan limits are ok (which max at about 30K for 4 years), but guiding a young person to loans beyond that is generally a bad idea.  That doesn't mean this young man can't possibly have a student oriented job, etc take out some loans cov some expenses etc.  But if you aren't involved with your kid, you don't get to help them choose their college path.  Not the kid's fault.  

It's still not clear what his  legal obligation is beyond his regular CS.  Given his income level, it doesn't seem like CS has been particularly onerous for him.  If he takes it back to court, there is risk he may be on the hook for more.  It's too bad he doesn't have a good relationship with this young man, but like it has been mentioned, it's not the kid's fault his parents divorced, his dad was in the military, his mom moved, etc etc etc.  Having an athletic scholarship is a unique opportunity that may afford him benefit beyond his cheapest stay at home option.  Students deeply engaged on campus are much more likely to graduate and in term create skills and relationships that may benefit them their entire lives. 

Anyway - if I had a friend like this, I'd encourage him to fulfill his legal obligation and be open to discussions.  I'm guessing it's well spelled out in their divorce agreement.   Maybe this is how he gets to sit down and talk with the son and catch up with him and re-establish a relationship.  

[QueenCat]

3 hours ago, Scarlett said:

So it sounds like the son and mother want a college experience paid for more than an education.  I can’t fathom how a court would require him to do that…..I honestly don’t get how a court can make a father pay cs support past age 18 or high school graduation.  

I've known several friends who got college tuition included in their court-ordered agreements. CS was through 18/high school graduation OR college graduation if the child chose to go to college. So CS plus tuition. These were typically upper middle class/lower upper class families where the mom stayed at home until the divorce. 

[Corraleno]

9 hours ago, Tap said:

$12,000 isn't enough to pay for college, but mom should be paying half, which brings that up to $24,000 and with the scholarship and knowing the tuition/living expenses in that area, it should be more than enough to live on. He is fine paying the $12,000 child support. What he struggles with is paying for college too. Who will the child support go to, if the student lives at college year round (needs to be there in summer for training).  Friend wants son to look into scholarships that he is eligible for, and after he gets that number he will sit down with mom/son and talk about $$. We live in Portland, Oregon where there are many colleges with his major. He could attend one and live with friend. 

Friend didn't pay for his other kids college. But did help them when they needed it. He doesn't mind helping, but he doesn't believe college is for everyone and that while the student did get a bit of a scholarship, he doesn't want to be paying college tuition, just so the son can play college football. There are less expensive colleges, that he could go to, but he wouldn't be playing football, so son won't consider them. 

As the parent of a college athlete, I will echo what a PP said about the unique opportunities and experiences that go along with being part of a varsity team. I assume this is a D2 team, since he only has a partial scholarship, but even at D2 schools football players often get a lot of extra perks like free tutoring, academic coaching, extra meals, access to psychologists/doctors/physical therapists (even for issues that are not necessarily sports-related), extra help with resumes, interviews, and job placement, etc. Athletic departments want their scholarship kids to stay eligible to play and he is likely to have far more academic support as a team member than he would otherwise — things like required study hours, checking in with an athletic advisor several times each semester to make sure he stays on track, required tutoring hours if he isn't on track, etc. And then there is the camaraderie and immediate friendships that come with being part of a team, while many freshmen really struggle to make friends and find their niche. Some employers also see four years as a varsity athlete as evidence that the person is a hard worker and team player, so it can help even after graduation. So I wouldn't dismiss the son's desire to play football as trivial or assume that it will interfere with his education.

Having said all that, I think the total cost also matters, and as nice as those perks are, it makes a big difference if the school in question is a state school, where $24K from parents + partial scholarship just leaves him a few thousand short, which could be covered with some extra parental help and/or student loans, or if he's talking about a private school where the gap is like $30K/yr and he wants dad to pay a significant chunk of that. The first seems reasonable to me and as a parent I would try to help with that, but if the price of private school with football is like $100K+ more than an equivalent education in a state school without football, I would not support that as a parent.

[Tap]

3 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

As the parent of a college athlete, I will echo what a PP said about the unique opportunities and experiences that go along with being part of a varsity team. I assume this is a D2 team, since he only has a partial scholarship, but even at D2 schools football players often get a lot of extra perks like free tutoring, academic coaching, extra meals, access to psychologists/doctors/physical therapists (even for issues that are not necessarily sports-related), extra help with resumes, interviews, and job placement, etc. Athletic departments want their scholarship kids to stay eligible to play and he is likely to have far more academic support as a team member than he would otherwise — things like required study hours, checking in with an athletic advisor several times each semester to make sure he stays on track, required tutoring hours if he isn't on track, etc. And then there is the camaraderie and immediate friendships that come with being part of a team, while many freshmen really struggle to make friends and find their niche. Some employers also see four years as a varsity athlete as evidence that the person is a hard worker and team player, so it can help even after graduation. So I wouldn't dismiss the son's desire to play football as trivial or assume that it will interfere with his education.

Having said all that, I think the total cost also matters, and as nice as those perks are, it makes a big difference if the school in question is a state school, where $24K from parents + partial scholarship just leaves him a few thousand short, which could be covered with some extra parental help and/or student loans, or if he's talking about a private school where the gap is like $30K/yr and he wants dad to pay a significant chunk of that. The first seems reasonable to me and as a parent I would try to help with that, but if the price of private school with football is like $100K+ more than an equivalent education in a state school without football, I would not support that as a parent.

This is extremely helpful. I will forward this to him

[SHP]

19 hours ago, katilac said:

 

Ethically speaking, it's still his son, who didn't choose to have his parents divorce and live five hours apart. You have a child, you raise a child, and give him as good a start in life as possible. 

 

This.