Shooting at a Texas elementary school

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, Lovinglife123 said:

there’s no need to be outright nasty.  I don’t know if it would be a viable solution, but knowing my husband would lay his life down for his students UNARMED is maddening.  He has no fighting chance at disarming someone from doing this.  He is signing up for this every year he continues to teach.

There *is* a need to be *pointed*. Niceties and euphemisms have led us to this point. We're not well-served by reality-free politesse. Too many people are dying/are dead. 

Edited May 26, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Faith-manor]

7 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

So, you're cool with a mass teacher exodus. We don't trust teachers to select appropriate books. You want them armed? Where's my hysterical laughing/crying emoji. This is INSANE. GET THE GUNS OUT OF THE HANDS OF KIDS!

I know, right! 

[WildflowerMom]

2 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

NZ style background checks

yearly proficiency and mental health review checks

assault rifle bans

magazine limitations

 

 

This is a good list, prairie.  

[bookbard]

Australian Federal Police now pushing for a better national firearms database following this tragedy - hopefully this is able to occur. We still do have shootings, and it is almost always either organised crime gangs shooting each other, or men killing women and children in their families. 

Australian police renew calls for national firearms database following mass shootings in the US | Gun control | The Guardian

[Teaching3bears]

This is all so awful.  What if there were no more guns? Would anything bad happen?

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, Lovinglife123 said:

Is your DH going into a war zone daily unarmed?  Because it is a war zone since Columbine.  I’m not suggesting machine guns for teachers but a concealed weapon absolutely.  They are the  ones shielding their students from attacks with their own bodies !!!   And yes do the other stuff like New Zealand.  I’m not for more guns in general, I would loooove more gun laws.

THE USA is NOT (as yet) a WAR ZONE, nor am I willing to concede such to the ammosexual community. This is a problem that can be solved without arming teachers who can't handle choosing appropriate reading material. WE CAN VOTE AND ADVOCATE FOR COMMON SENSE GUN SAFETY REFORMS!

Edited May 26, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Heartstrings]

2 minutes ago, Lovinglife123 said:

Is your DH going into a war zone daily unarmed?  Because it is a war zone since Columbine.  I’m not suggesting machine guns for teachers but a concealed weapon absolutely.  They are the  ones shielding their students from attacks with their own bodies !!!   And yes do the other stuff like New Zealand.  I’m not for more guns in general, I would loooove more gun laws.

At this point I think I’ve come around to allowing teachers to carry if they want.  Not require, allow.  I’m not sure if I’m all the way there but it’s close.  

[freesia]

Just now, Lovinglife123 said:

Is your DH going into a war zone daily unarmed?  Because it is a war zone since Columbine.  I’m not suggesting machine guns for teachers but a concealed weapon absolutely.  They are the  ones shielding their students from attacks with their own bodies !!!   And yes do the other stuff like New Zealand.  I’m not for more guns!!!  

It’s not a war zone. Even though it should never ever happen, it has not happened at any  rate like a war zone. Look at the news from Ukraine.  I was teaching when Columbine happened. I live near Newtown and homeschooled my dd in the library there once a week for a year.  Neither was anything like a war zone. And I would have quit teaching rather than teach first grade armed. 

[MercyA]

1 hour ago, Terabith said:

Could someone post the content of the article?  I can't read it without a subscription.

Uvalde Shooter Fired Outside School for 12 Minutes Before Entering

Community members express anger and frustration as police detail new timeline of mass shooting

UVALDE, Texas—Community members including relatives of students expressed anger and frustration Thursday about the time it took to end the mass shooting at an elementary school here, as police laid out a timeline with new details about their response.

Victor Escalon, a regional director for the Texas Department of Public Safety, said in a briefing that the now-deceased gunman, 18-year-old Salvador Ramos, lingered outside Robb Elementary for 12 minutes firing shots before walking into the school and barricading himself in a classroom where he killed 19 children and two teachers.

Mr. Escalon said he couldn’t say why no one stopped Ramos from entering the school during that time Tuesday. Most of the shots Ramos fired came during the first several minutes after he entered the school, Mr. Escalon said.

People who arrived at the school while Ramos locked himself in a classroom, or saw videos of police waiting outside, were furious.

“The police were doing nothing,” said Angeli Rose Gomez, who after learning about the shooting drove 40 miles to Robb Elementary, where her children are in second and third grade. “They were just standing outside the fence. They weren’t going in there or running anywhere.”

DPS officials previously said an armed school officer confronted Ramos as he arrived at the school. Mr. Escalon said Thursday that information was incorrect and no one encountered Ramos as he arrived at the school. “There was not an officer readily available and armed,” Mr. Escalon said.

Ramos shot his grandmother Tuesday morning and used her truck to drive to Robb Elementary School, crashing the vehicle into a nearby ditch at 11:28 a.m., according to the timeline laid out by Mr. Escalon. The gunman then began shooting at people at a funeral home across the street, prompting a 911 call reporting a gunman at the school at 11:30. Ramos climbed a fence onto school grounds and began firing before walking inside, unimpeded, at 11:40. The first police arrived on the scene at 11:44 and exchanged gunfire with Ramos, who locked himself in a fourth-grade classroom. There, he killed the students and teachers.

A Border Patrol tactical team went into the school an hour later, around 12:40 p.m., was able to get into the classroom and kill Ramos, Mr. Escalon said.

Ms. Gomez, a farm supervisor, said that she was one of numerous parents waiting outside the school who began encouraging—first politely, and then with more urgency—police and other law enforcement to enter the school sooner. After a few minutes, she said, U.S. Marshals put her in handcuffs, telling her she was being arrested for actively intervening in an active investigation.

Ms. Gomez convinced local Uvalde police officers whom she knew to persuade the marshals to set her free. Around her, the scene was frantic. She said she saw a father tackled and thrown to the ground by police and a third pepper-sprayed. Once freed from her cuffs, Ms. Gomez made her distance from the crowd, jumped the school fence, and ran inside to grab her two children. She sprinted out of the school with them.

Videos circulated on social media Wednesday and Thursday of frantic family members trying to get access to Robb Elementary as the attack was unfolding, some of them yelling at police who blocked them from entering.

“Shoot him or something!” a woman’s voice can be heard yelling on a video, before a man is heard saying about the officers, “They’re all just [expletive] parked outside, dude. They need to go in there.”

Parents can be heard yelling to each other that their kids were inside the school and that they needed to get in. A woman can be heard yelling at a police officer, “He’s one person! Take him out!”

The videos were collected by Storyful, a social-media research company owned by News Corp, parent company of The Wall Street Journal.

The Uvalde Police Department couldn’t be reached for comment. A representative for the U.S. Marshals Service didn’t respond to a request for comment.

Asked at the press conference why law enforcement weren’t able to respond in the initial 12 minutes Ramos was outside the school, Mr. Escalon said that was part of the investigation. “Our job is to report the facts and have answers. We’re not there yet,” he said.

Mr. Escalon also said police aren’t sure how Ramos was able to enter the school building. “We will find out more about why it was unlocked—or maybe it was locked—but right now it appears that it was unlocked,” he said.

Texas state trooper Juan Maldonado said he went to the school with a friend whose wife was one of the teachers slain in the shooting.

He said police were already on the scene, indicating a fast response time, and that it appeared they had set up a perimeter around the building.

Mr. Maldonado said he and the friend were able to enter the building to get students out and showed cuts on his forearms that he said were from breaking windows to assist in that effort.

“I don’t want to critique anything; we’re here to be supportive of the community,” he said.

After the confrontation ended with Ramos dead, school buses began to arrive to transport students from the school, according to Ms. Gomez. She said she saw police use a Taser on a local father who approached the bus to collect his child.

“They didn’t do that to the shooter, but they did that to us. That’s how it felt,” Ms. Gomez said.

Danny Ruiz, whose great-niece died in the attack, said he arrived at the school after hearing gunfire and felt grateful for the police response.

“The Border Patrol agent who took him out, to me, that guy is a hero,” said Mr. Ruiz, 51.

Thursday’s rising anger came after more than 1,000 people from this grieving city gathered Wednesday night for a prayer vigil.

“God is here with us tonight,” Pastor Tony Gruben, of Baptist Temple Church, told the people gathered at the Uvalde County Fairplex. “God still loves you and God still loves those little children.”

Community members packed the stands, spilled into the aisles and stood on the dirt rodeo floor where the ministers preached from a stage under flags of Texas and the U.S. White cowboy hats dotted the audience along with scores of maroon T-shirts that said “Uvalde Coyotes,” the high school mascot. A phalanx of police officers stood stone-faced watching the crowd, and scores of journalists from around the world aimed their cameras and beamed the scene around the globe.

President Biden and first lady Jill Biden will travel to Uvalde on Sunday to grieve with the community, the White House said.

The massacre represented the deadliest school shooting since the slayings at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn., nearly 10 years ago.

Alicia A. Caldwell
and Sadie Gurman contributed to this article.

Edited May 26, 2022 by MercyA

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, Heartstrings said:

At this point I think I’ve come around to allowing teachers to carry if they want.  Not require, allow.  I’m not sure if I’m all the way there but it’s close.  

That's already allowed in TX. It helped exactly NO ONE. Most teachers will not and will never carry. They teach to help kids LEARN. They don't sign up for armed warfare.

[Terabith]

4 minutes ago, Lovinglife123 said:

Is your DH going into a war zone daily unarmed?  Because it is a war zone since Columbine.  I’m not suggesting machine guns for teachers but a concealed weapon absolutely.  They are the  ones shielding their students from attacks with their own bodies !!!   And yes do the other stuff like New Zealand.  I’m not for more guns in general, I would loooove more gun laws.  Show me any other situation where someone is shielding others with their body.  Didn’t happen in Buffalo, Everyone hid.  Teachers.. never.

Because THIS is what happens. 

I have been a teacher, and I would outright refuse to carry a weapon.  I am not safe with a firearm.  

Of course, the system we have now of active shooter drills where we ask children to decide who would be willing to practice throwing textbooks at an armed intruded is a crappy one.  

The other part of trauma that we don't talk about with teachers is that you're required to lock the door, even if one of your students is out of the classroom and is banging on the door crying to be let in.  You aren't allowed to open the door for them.  It's heartbreaking.

 

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, prairiewindmomma said:

The only times I really thought I was going to be shot were in Texas. Everyone has a “protect me and mine” “I will get what I need for me and mine” mentality. Fights escalated quickly when the guns got pulled out. Road rage incidents often ended in gunfire.

Making it culturally ok to shoot people, culturally ok to arm to the teeth, culturally ok to swagger about “home defense” is part of the sickness that feeds the gun loving mentality. 

I recently read an article about the big increase in road rage incidents involving guns, and it said that 25% of road rage shooting fatalities in the entire US were in Texas.

[Elona]

5 minutes ago, Lovinglife123 said:

Is your DH going into a war zone daily unarmed?  Because it is a war zone since Columbine.  I’m not suggesting machine guns for teachers but a concealed weapon absolutely.  They are the  ones shielding their students from attacks with their own bodies !!!   And yes do the other stuff like New Zealand.  I’m not for more guns in general, I would loooove more gun laws.

I know that you and he both feel helpless in this situation. We all do. It seems to you like putting a weapon in his hand would improve his odds of survival and enable him to protect kids. Maybe it would. But in the long run, guns in the hands of many teachers would likely lead to more violence, not less. As a policy, it's a bad move.

But I really feel for your dh - it is horrible to feel powerless.

[Heartstrings]

4 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

That's already allowed in TX. It helped exactly NO ONE. Most teachers will not and will never carry. They teach to help kids LEARN. They don't sign up for armed warfare.

I agree.  Completely.  And yet today I’m feeling uncomfortable with the idea of leaving them sitting ducks.  Cops aren’t going in to save them.  I don’t know.  

[kokotg]

7 minutes ago, Lovinglife123 said:

Is your DH going into a war zone daily unarmed?  Because it is a war zone since Columbine.  I’m not suggesting machine guns for teachers but a concealed weapon absolutely.  They are the  ones shielding their students from attacks with their own bodies !!!   And yes do the other stuff like New Zealand.  I’m not for more guns in general, I would loooove more gun laws.  Show me any other situation where someone is shielding others with their body.  Didn’t happen in Buffalo, Everyone hid.  Teachers.. never.

My husband is. The second someone expects him to bring a gun to school is the second he stops teaching. And there were people with guns right there in this situation. There was an armed guard at the grocery store in Buffalo. An armed officer at Parkland. 

[Terabith]

Thank you, @MercyA.  That is a horrifying picture of police inaction and actively fighting and harming parents, including one trying to get his child off a bus???  Seriously, WTF?

[Sneezyone]

Just now, Heartstrings said:

I agree.  Completely.  And yet today I’m feeling uncomfortable with the idea of leaving them sitting ducks.  Cops aren’t going in to save them.  I don’t know.  

We don't have to leave them as sitting ducks. Seriously. This is fixable with VOTER will. Whether people will EVER put women/children first with their votes is probably a pipe dream but we can try. We can talk about it. We can point out the hypocrisy and insanity of military weapons in the hands of civilian teens who can't even rent a car or get a hotel room.

[WildflowerMom]

So he stood around outside shooting and no one locked the damn doors?  I'm finding that so hard to comprehend.   Like surely that cannot be correct.  

[lauraw4321]

Just now, WildflowerMom said:

So he stood around outside shooting and no one locked the damn doors?  I'm finding that so hard to comprehend.   Like surely that cannot be correct.  

Agree. None of it makes any sense. I’m hoping that there’s some big information disconnect that will become clear. 

[Murphy101]

7 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

I've seen that and I'm very upset about it all.  Originally reporting made me think the cops called for a tactical unit then spent the time waiting evacuating as many students as they could.  Now it looks more like they called for tactical, got out their own kids and spent the rest of the time holding parents back from getting their own kids out while teachers were left on their own to evacuate or hunker down or whatever.  

I DO not blame the cops for not going in after the guy.  They wouldn't have been successful without the right gear and more dead people helps no one.  But they could  have been helping with the evacuation and directing parents to the funeral home next door where a bunch of kids ended up anyway. Some of the video looks like cops on a power trip in the worst moments.  

Stop. The sheriff’s own child died in that room. Now he might very well be a POS dad who didn’t care but I’m going to bet that for the rest of his life he will be wondering what else he could have done to get in that room faster. 

Evacuating is NOT always the safest thing.  Everyone saying out of the way so cops can focus everything on that shooter is priority. 

7 hours ago, happi duck said:

From the article: “The bottom line is law enforcement was there," McCraw said. “They did engage immediately. They did contain (Ramos) in the classroom.”

Contained in a classroom full of kids was a "win"??!!?  Sickening.

 

We currently have zero reason to think they were not doing everything they could as fast they could. It’s possible that room couldn’t be breached without risking more lives without backup.  Dead cops can’t evacuate children either.

Containment and elimination is the goal.  If parents outside wouldn’t stay out of the way then that takes away cop resources.

And please. Again.

Most of the cops either had kids in that building or knew the kids some other way.  They were deeply invested in protecting as many as they could.

There is exactly only one reason 19 children died that day: 

An unstable adult with homicidal ideation was able to buy guns and ammo in one day with zero limits or waits or restrictions.

And the bottom line is 21 dead people and 20+ Hospitalized people would have had been able to go about living an uneventful day if he hadn’t been able to do that.

That’s the only thing that would have saved those people this week.

Stay focused.

Do not let anyone anywhere shift the facts of this to blame anything else.

Do not let anyone anywhere continue to allow us to shift us from any argument about this fact.

Stay focused until gun regulations happen. 

[Hilltopmom]

39 minutes ago, Lovinglife123 said:

I just think at this point.. after so many of these, as part of being a teacher they should be trained and armed… just part of their everyday job.  They go through so much school and training already, background checks etc.  I wish my DH could carry a gun to school.  Instead 18 year olds can carry machine guns into the schools, but teachers can’t protect their students?  I’m all for getting rid of military weapons from civilians too, but why not have every teacher a “security officer” too.  In every school shooting the teachers step in and give their lives to try and save the kids already.  

And how many students would accidentally get ahold of those guns? I’ve taught preK- 12, Gen Ed and special on.. sitting on the floor at circle time, what- you want a gun on my hip? How about when restraining a child with severe behavior issues?- so they can grab it and shoot me?? 
Your dh might want a gun at work but I think most of us would quit.

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I don’t think the answer is more guns. 
 

When we lived in Texas, nearly everyone in my neighborhood was armed. They got guns because the police were slow to respond and there was an uptick of armed invasions happening in the neighborhood. Most of them had never fired their guns. Women carried handguns in their purses without trigger locks. Guns were left in glove boxes, hidden under pool towels, worn into grocery stores in holsters.  It was normal to hear of toddlers getting ahold of guns and accidentally shooting themselves or others.

The only times I really thought I was going to be shot were in Texas. Everyone has a “protect me and mine” “I will get what I need for me and mine” mentality. Fights escalated quickly when the guns got pulled out. Road rage incidents often ended in gunfire.
 

Making it culturally ok to shoot people, culturally ok to arm to the teeth, culturally ok to swagger about “home defense” is part of the sickness that feeds the gun loving mentality. 
 

 

I don't think I was clear - my bit about making the schools, shopping centers, etc a military protected zone was sarcasm. Or being fatalistic, maybe. Just....the obvious answer is gun reform. No doubt. But those saying we don't need it need to reduce guns on the street, AND in the face of police unable to protect us, they need to fess up to what the only other answer is - an militarized country. Obviously, that is NOT the right answer. 

1 hour ago, Faith-manor said:

Not trained, Rambo up for cosplay,  just cool dress up clothes and toys, and then "Oh f@ck this is really happening. What the hell am I supposed to do?"

You have NO idea how much my nephew, Michigan National Guard, is seething over this. But he also said it is typical.  They are armed for Iwo Jima, and trained for Pleasantville with police academy training being 3 months long and includes ZERO training for this, mostly just memorizing laws and procdures. They have been failed by the system as much as we civilians have. The only dfference is, they willing signed up for the job and have the responsibility to get informed.

The article I linked to WAS about training for this particular situation. It was developed a few hours away, and is being taught to police around the country. It is one of the reasons that the Parkland situatoin was handled more quickly than say, Columbine. Those officers did have that training. That said, no weekend training is going to be the same as being a soldier. WE can't keep expecting police to be soldiers just because they carry military style weapons. 

33 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I had some sympathy with the idea of beat cops not going in to do anything.  But a SWAT team in full gear doing crowd control on parents is BS plain and simple.  If they didn’t want to go in fine, resign and hand off your gear to a parent.  
 

We ask more of teachers than SWAT teams.   

Ok, wait. I thought they were waiting for SWAT (wrong decision). But are you saying SWAT was there and STILL didn't go in?!?!?! WTF? Tell me I have that wrong. please. 

26 minutes ago, KSera said:

Because most teachers don't want to do that. That's not what they signed up for, and it's far more likely there would end up more shootings caused by the teachers' guns than by someone entering school grounds from the outside with a gun. We've already seen time and again that even armed guards on campuses more often than not are unable to stop shooters. Are the teachers supposed to be outfitted with AR-15s also? And how is that going to go down in a split second decision in a room full of kids? Arming teachers is no kind of solution for anyone except the gun manufacturers, who are the ones who stand to gain financially from that.

A math teacher with a handgun is not going to make a headshot on a guy in body armor who is actively spraying the room with bullets. Lets be real. That's...that's not going to happen. And the first time a teacher accidentally shoots a student? Or a teacher loses it and shoots a parent? 

18 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

NZ style background checks

yearly proficiency and mental health review checks

assault rifle bans

magazine limitations

 

 

So wait - background checks, references from people that know you, training, and a limit on number of rounds/magazines...OR....arming your local art teacher. WHY is this a touch choice for people??? Who on EARTH thinks there is a huge overlap between people with a vocation for teaching children to read and people who are capable of making a difficult shot in an active shooter situation without hitting any kids in a full classroom that has erupted in chaos?!?!?  The people that can do that (if there even ARE any) are in the military already, or secret service, etc. 

[WildflowerMom]

I think we can stop it going forward, but the guns are already out there.  The ammo is stockpiled.   There's got to be multiple fixes, not one.  And arming teachers isn't one.  

[ktgrok]

4 minutes ago, WildflowerMom said:

So he stood around outside shooting and no one locked the damn doors?  I'm finding that so hard to comprehend.   Like surely that cannot be correct.  

 

3 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

Stop. The sheriff’s own child died in that room. Now he might very well be a POS dad who didn’t care but I’m going to bet that for the rest of his life he will be wondering what else he could have done to get in that room faster. 

Evacuating is NOT always the safest thing.  Everyone saying out of the way so cops can focus everything on that shooter is priority. 

We currently have zero reason to think they were not doing everything they could as fast they could. It’s possible that room couldn’t be breached without risking more lives without backup.  Dead cops can’t evacuate children either.

Containment and elimination is the goal.  If parents outside wouldn’t stay out of the way then that takes away cop resources.

And please. Again.

Most of the cops either had kids in that building or knew the kids some other way.  They were deeply invested in protecting as many as they could.

There is exactly only one reason 19 children died that day: 

An unstable adult with homicidal ideation was able to buy guns and ammo in one day with zero limits or waits or restrictions.

And the bottom line is 21 dead people and 20+ Hospitalized people would have had been able to go about living an uneventful day if he hadn’t been able to do that.

That’s the only thing that would have saved those people this week.

Stay focused.

Do not let anyone anywhere shift the facts of this to blame anything else.

Do not let anyone anywhere continue to allow us to shift us from any argument about this fact.

Stay focused until gun regulations happen. 

IF what is being said is accurate, then no, they were not following best procedure as it has been known for years. At this point, the goal is to track down the shooter as soon as possible. Period. 

Again, I REALLY hope we are misinformed, and that while some cops were containing the parents (which I understand) others were inside going after the shooter. If not...they did more harm than good. 

[ktgrok]

1 minute ago, WildflowerMom said:

I think we can stop it going forward, but the guns are already out there.  The ammo is stockpiled.   There's got to be multiple fixes, not one.  And arming teachers isn't one.  

That's why buybacks were implemented in other places. It helped. REducing the number of guns helps. 

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I don't think I was clear - my bit about making the schools, shopping centers, etc a military protected zone was sarcasm. Or being fatalistic, maybe. Just....the obvious answer is gun reform. No doubt. But those saying we don't need it need to reduce guns on the street, AND in the face of police unable to protect us, they need to fess up to what the only other answer is - an militarized country. Obviously, that is NOT the right answer. 

The article I linked to WAS about training for this particular situation. It was developed a few hours away, and is being taught to police around the country. It is one of the reasons that the Parkland situatoin was handled more quickly than say, Columbine. Those officers did have that training. That said, no weekend training is going to be the same as being a soldier. WE can't keep expecting police to be soldiers just because they carry military style weapons. 

Ok, wait. I thought they were waiting for SWAT (wrong decision). But are you saying SWAT was there and STILL didn't go in?!?!?! WTF? Tell me I have that wrong. please. 

A math teacher with a handgun is not going to make a headshot on a guy in body armor who is actively spraying the room with bullets. Lets be real. That's...that's not going to happen. And the first time a teacher accidentally shoots a student? Or a teacher loses it and shoots a parent? 

So wait - background checks, references from people that know you, training, and a limit on number of rounds/magazines...OR....arming your local art teacher. WHY is this a touch choice for people??? Who on EARTH thinks there is a huge overlap between people with a vocation for teaching children to read and people who are capable of making a difficult shot in an active shooter situation without hitting any kids in a full classroom that has erupted in chaos?!?!?  The people that can do that (if there even ARE any) are in the military already, or secret service, etc. 

Parkland was NOT a success, Katie. Failure is inevitable until we address the guns.

[Hilltopmom]

Also- even if I wanted a gun at school… when would you like me as a teacher to do all this continuing firearms training? Put a shooting range in the gym? Hire a sub once a week to keep my skills fresh? Paying for this? What???

just no

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, WildflowerMom said:

I think we can stop it going forward, but the guns are already out there.  The ammo is stockpiled.   There's got to be multiple fixes, not one.  And arming teachers isn't one.  

Gun buybacks work. Guns for gas cards work. We can get them off the streets...voluntarily. We can appeal to WOMEN to get them out of their homes.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Sneezyone

[ktgrok]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

Parkland was NOT a success, Katie. Failure is inevitable until we address the guns.

Again, I very very very clearly think gun reform is the answer. I don't think dead kids in a classroom is ever a success. But it was quicker to the end than in some previous instances, which is what I was referring to. 

 

[ktgrok]

1 minute ago, Lovinglife123 said:

My husband has tons of useless meetings.  Plenty of time for training.  Just saying.  If he’s expected to just lay there helpless…

VS making it so a shooter can't get a gun like this?

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, Lovinglife123 said:

My husband has tons of useless meetings.  Plenty of time for training.  Just saying.  If he’s expected to just lay there helpless…

Yeah, so, his meetings don't include leaving the job site to go to a gun range to train on and certify on military weapons on a regular basis. His *JOB* isn't to be fully qualified in those weapons or the appropriate use thereof which is separate from the actual target certification. THAT is for NAVAL personnel who don't even see hand-to-hand combat. That is military-level training. That's not even half of what the military police and other direct combat forces do.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Pam in CT]

re so many good guys, with so many guns, and yet...

1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

.. the training program developed to handle school shootings was developed IN Texas, less than 3 hours away! I would say, "Oh, the department in a small town didn't have the funds for the training" but all that gear I saw sure cost money. So either they were trained and didn't follow it, or not trained at all but given fun toys. https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/02/15/us/florida-school-shooting-columbine-lessons/index.html

The sellers of fun toys have an interest in selling them. The sellers of machismo have an interest in stoking fear and driving up yet further demand for more fun toys.

Turns out that *having the fun toys* doesn't magically create the courage to run TOWARD a heavily armed Kevlar-clad active shooter. Training notwithstanding.

This school HAD the armed guards on prem, HAD the doors that locked from inside, HAD the (mental health eroding) drills with the kids. It had already done the *hardening* that gun advocates call for.

 

re culture that glorifies the fun toys, rather than leadership and sacrifice

1 hour ago, prairiewindmomma said:

... Everyone has a “protect me and mine” “I will get what I need for me and mine” mentality. Fights escalated quickly when the guns got pulled out. Road rage incidents often ended in gunfire.

Making it culturally ok to shoot people, culturally ok to arm to the teeth, culturally ok to swagger about “home defense” is part of the sickness that feeds the gun loving mentality.

Agreed. Ironically and self-perpetuating-ly, the culture feeds on FEAR. But it's also amped up, a LOT, by the sellers of guns and their lobbyists. There are surges in sales after every one of these shootings.

 

re what's next

6 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

We don't have to leave them as sitting ducks. Seriously. This is fixable with VOTER will. Whether people will EVER put women/children first with their votes is probably a pipe dream but we can try. We can talk about it. We can point out the hypocrisy and insanity of military weapons in the hands of civilian teens who can't even rent a car or get a hotel room.

 

[Heartstrings]

11 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

 

Most of the cops either had kids in that building or knew the kids some other way.  They were deeply invested in protecting as many as they could.

 

. 

Cops went in an evacuated their own children while other cops prevented other parents from doing the same.  There is video of that being admitted too.   I think there it is reasonable to ask if the cops did what they were supposed to do.  Did you read the article linked upthread where a state trooper/dad went in and wondered why the cops were all outside?   Why did they need to wait for the border patrol tactical team when they have a SWAT team?     

I'm not wrong for thinking it looks pretty bad right now for the police.  

 

Also the school-was it already in lockdown, if not shouldn't it have been if the guy was outside for 5-10 minutes shooting his gun? 

 

Of course only the gunman is to blame, but that can't absolve anyone who didn't do what they were supposed to do to try and protect the children.   

 

Edited May 26, 2022 by Heartstrings

[prairiewindmomma]

I think the comment above about guns in malls....you meant it as sarcasm, @ktgrok, but some/many Texans would not take it that way. When the mall shooting in San Antonio happened, two random people in the mall tried to engage the shooter with the guns they were carrying that day on their own persons. https://abcnews.go.com/US/42-year-man-idd-good-samaritan-killed-san/story?id=44983988  

More guns aren't the answer. 

Guns on school campuses in TX story....https://www.texastribune.org/2021/03/11/texas-legislature-campus-carry-guns-schools/  Currently teachers can be deemed "marshalls" and have guns at school, locked away. Texas lawmakers have been pushing for teachers to be able to conceal carry, like they can nearly everywhere else in TX. 

When dd went to school in TX, it was a "hardened" campus. No trash cans outside of the school because they could be a place bombs could be hidden. Cameras everywhere. Locked doors with driver's licenses scanned to enter the building. Kids held until parental release (because no bus service).  Regular shooter drills. It felt scary to be there. Dd had a lot of military families in her school. Even they commented on how odd the culture was. Fear drives a lot of gun buying in Texas, I think.

Honestly, the whole nation would benefit from a free public television channel dedicated solely to mental health issues. 

[Murphy101]

I have been in multiple planning meetings for teacher at various things next fall.

Twice the topic of “safety” has come up. And someone mentioned arming teachers.

No. I won’t do it. And I won’t work with a teacher who does either.

Is it not enough that I’d take a bullet for your kid? Must I put a bullet in someone else too?

Because I won’t.

And this shooter had just turned 18.  A legal adult I know.  But just a kid too.  Who here doesn’t see an 18 year old and think they are just kids?  Yes.  Adults too.  But so very much still a kid at the same time.

Do we really want to have teachers that would be okay shooting a teen?

Again. Is it not enough I wouldn’t even have to think about taking a bullet for your kid? You want me to be willing to shoot some other messed up kid for them too?  Justified or not - I don’t want to be the teacher who does that.

And according to that article I posted earlier apparently even when teachers do carry guns, teachers aren’t safe at it even when there isn’t a shooter. So no thanks. 

Edited May 26, 2022 by Murphy101

[ktgrok]

1 minute ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I think the comment above about guns in malls....you meant it as sarcasm, @ktgrok, but some/many Texans would not take it that way. When the mall shooting in San Antonio happened, two random people in the mall tried to engage the shooter with the guns they were carrying that day on their own persons. https://abcnews.go.com/US/42-year-man-idd-good-samaritan-killed-san/story?id=44983988  

More guns aren't the answer. 

 

I guess it was me trying to show where the "logical" end is, if we won't stop arming citizens. As you point out, armed citizens can't handle an active shooter situation. Neither can the average police officer. So that leaves either NOT letting anyone who wants one have a freaking gun, OR giving up and putting natioinal guard troops at every public place in the country. (which is obviously not exactly feasible, nor at all desirable)

[WildflowerMom]

I see teachers as sort of having that oath to protect, sort of like doctors and nurses.  'Do no harm'.  I get that teachers don't actually have that oath, but I think they (most of them) probably feel that deep down or they wouldn't have wanted to teach in the first place.  I can't imagine arming teachers getting any traction with actual teachers.  But who knows.

[Terabith]

1 minute ago, WildflowerMom said:

I see teachers as sort of having that oath to protect, sort of like doctors and nurses.  'Do no harm'.  I get that teachers don't actually have that oath, but I think they (most of them) probably feel that deep down or they wouldn't have wanted to teach in the first place.  I can't imagine arming teachers getting any traction with actual teachers.  But who knows.

Even if teachers are willing, it's a really bad idea!  They tried it in Florida.  Guns got left in school bathrooms.  It's just a terrible idea, all the way around.

[prairiewindmomma]

1 minute ago, ktgrok said:

I guess it was me trying to show where the "logical" end is, if we won't stop arming citizens. As you point out, armed citizens can't handle an active shooter situation. Neither can the average police officer. So that leaves either NOT letting anyone who wants one have a freaking gun, OR giving up and putting natioinal guard troops at every public place in the country. (which is obviously not exactly feasible, nor at all desirable)

Or maybe the answer is reasonable gun legislation....

banning automatic weapons

limiting magazine size

requiring registration of guns with the feds (subject to high penalties)

requiring licensing to carry guns that is renewed regularly and requires both regular mental health checks and proficiency in shooting exams

requiring trigger locks (subject to high penalties)

There are in-between things we can do, but it's because we allow the gun crazies to control the dialogue and shut it down through stonewalling that we only think of things as "all guns" or "no guns". 

We're looking for reduction in risk. 

[Murphy101]

2 minutes ago, WildflowerMom said:

I see teachers as sort of having that oath to protect, sort of like doctors and nurses.  'Do no harm'.  I get that teachers don't actually have that oath, but I think they (most of them) probably feel that deep down or they wouldn't have wanted to teach in the first place.  I can't imagine arming teachers getting any traction with actual teachers.  But who knows.

There are many teachers in Ok and TX who would be thrilled to carry in school. 

[ktgrok]

1 minute ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Or maybe the answer is reasonable gun legislation....

banning automatic weapons

limiting magazine size

requiring registration of guns with the feds (subject to high penalties)

requiring licensing to carry guns that is renewed regularly and requires both regular mental health checks and proficiency in shooting exams

requiring trigger locks (subject to high penalties)

There are in-between things we can do, but it's because we allow the gun crazies to control the dialogue and shut it down through stonewalling that we only think of things as "all guns" or "no guns". 

We're looking for reduction in risk. 

That's what I meant by the "not let just anyone who wants one get whatever gun they want". 

shorthand for the VERY reasonable and feasible regulations proposed by many - such as what you are saying. 

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

There are many teachers in Ok and TX who would be thrilled to carry in school. 

Any teacher that would *want* to have a gun in class isn't one I'd want teaching my children. EVER.

[Heartstrings]

5 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Or maybe the answer is reasonable gun legislation....

banning automatic weapons

limiting magazine size

requiring registration of guns with the feds (subject to high penalties)

requiring licensing to carry guns that is renewed regularly and requires both regular mental health checks and proficiency in shooting exams

requiring trigger locks (subject to high penalties)

There are in-between things we can do, but it's because we allow the gun crazies to control the dialogue and shut it down through stonewalling that we only think of things as "all guns" or "no guns". 

We're looking for reduction in risk. 

This is obviously what's needed, obvious to me at least.  I think a lot of us are just frustrated because its so obvious, yet nearly impossible.   I'm in a red state, my senators are bozos who win by huge margins.  It feels powerless, but what can we do to actually move all this good stuff forward?  

Edited May 26, 2022 by Heartstrings

[stephanier.1765]

Armed guardians already in schools

https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2022/05/26/undercover-armed-guardians-already-in-place-in-local-schools/

[Sneezyone]

7 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

This is obviously what's needed, obvious to me at least.  I think a lot of us are just frustrated because its so obvious, yet nearly impossible.   I'm in a red state, my senators are bozos who win by huge margins.  It feels powerless, but what can we do to actually move all this good stuff forward?  

Use the powers we do have. Seriously. No one questions 'life voters' who stop at the womb but libs. GO FURTHER. Life includes our living, breathing children. It includes churchgoers and grocery shoppers. Life includes ALL OF US. It includes healthcare. Use your power accordingly.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Dmmetler]

1 hour ago, Lovinglife123 said:

I just think at this point.. after so many of these, as part of being a teacher they should be trained and armed… just part of their everyday job.  They go through so much school and training already, background checks etc.  I wish my DH could carry a gun to school.  Instead 18 year olds can carry machine guns into the schools, but teachers can’t protect their students?  I’m all for getting rid of military weapons from civilians too, but why not have every teacher a “security officer” too.  In every school shooting the teachers step in and give their lives to try and save the kids already.  

As I stated above, I am a 50 yr old woman with dyspraxia and a visual-spatial perception disorder. I once managed to shoot an arrow that landed BEHIND me at summer camp as a kid.  I am a damned good teacher. I am the last person you want to give a gun to, and I know it.  I do not want to be handed a gun to protect my students because I can’t protect them that way. I want our schools, and churches, and supermarkets, and other settings to NOT HAVE people shooting there. Period. Why is it that the answer to too many guns is more guns? 

[Murphy101]

5 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Any teacher that would *want* to have a gun in class isn't one I'd want teaching my children. EVER.

I have always said anyplace that needs metal detectors, armed police security door guards, and how to avoid getting shot to death drills is a place where no child should be sent for anything.

If my HOME was like that? CPS would take my children from me.

I am super tired of schools doing things to children that most state child protection services would consider grounds for a parent losing their kid and even possibly going to prison for.

[Sneezyone]

40 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

Stop. The sheriff’s own child died in that room. Now he might very well be a POS dad who didn’t care but I’m going to bet that for the rest of his life he will be wondering what else he could have done to get in that room faster. 

Evacuating is NOT always the safest thing.  Everyone saying out of the way so cops can focus everything on that shooter is priority. 

We currently have zero reason to think they were not doing everything they could as fast they could. It’s possible that room couldn’t be breached without risking more lives without backup.  Dead cops can’t evacuate children either.

Containment and elimination is the goal.  If parents outside wouldn’t stay out of the way then that takes away cop resources.

And please. Again.

Most of the cops either had kids in that building or knew the kids some other way.  They were deeply invested in protecting as many as they could.

There is exactly only one reason 19 children died that day: 

An unstable adult with homicidal ideation was able to buy guns and ammo in one day with zero limits or waits or restrictions.

And the bottom line is 21 dead people and 20+ Hospitalized people would have had been able to go about living an uneventful day if he hadn’t been able to do that.

That’s the only thing that would have saved those people this week.

Stay focused.

Do not let anyone anywhere shift the facts of this to blame anything else.

Do not let anyone anywhere continue to allow us to shift us from any argument about this fact.

Stay focused until gun regulations happen. 

TO BE CLEAR, the SHERIFF who was yelling about a SOB at an auditorium press conference, away from grieving families, lost NO ONE that day. A *DEPUTY* who has not been quoted, did. 

Edited May 26, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Murphy101]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

TO BE CLEAR, the SHERIFF who was yelling about a SOB at a press conference, lost NO ONE that day. A *DEPUTY* who has not been quoted, did. 

Yikes. I did not see any press conferences. Just don’t need to see that.  But if my details are wrong then I’m sorry for the error. 

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

I have always said anyplace that needs metal detectors, armed police security door guards, and how to avoid getting shot to death drills is a place where no child should be sent for anything.

If my HOME was like that? CPS would take my children from me.

I am super tired of schools doing things to children that most state child protection services would consider grounds for a parent losing their kid and even possibly going to prison for.

ME TOO! That said, this is what *some* Americans are demanding/allowing to happen through inaction/hypocrisy. It is what it is.