Give perspective on this trans issue I'm dealing with. Religious and secular wanted.

[Catwoman]

1 minute ago, Terabith said:

Yeah, that's fair.  And changing titles like husband and wife are trickier, too.  I wasn't trying to call out anyone in particular, but I do think it's truly important that HS Mom start trying to use the new name and pronouns.  

Oh, no problem at all — I know you weren’t calling anyone out! 🙂 

[HS Mom in NC]

56 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Also, I notice nobody on the hive is using she/ her for your daughter’s spouse.  I know said spouse says she is still okay with male pronouns and name, but she also said she would prefer female pronouns and new name.  The trans people say they’re okay with old stuff because they feel like they have to take what they can get. But they HOPE people will refer to them the way they choose. It’s hard to change names and pronouns, especially when someone is still presenting as gender assigned at birth. But it would be incredibly kind and supportive to do so.  

He's definitely not someone who would go along with something he didn't genuinely agree with.  Not.at.all.  He makes me look wishy-washy, cowed, and people pleasing by comparison-not something I have a reputation for. Also, let's not start assuming people don't really mean what they say-that's infantalizing, gaslighting, and condescending.  It's like that person I once heard correct an Eskimo who introduced themselves as being Eskimo. The Eskimo lady was NOT happy to have someone else tell her how she should identify, especially a person who wasn't Eskimo.   It was insulting.

[HS Mom in NC]

4 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

Honestly, that just sounds like a bunch of psychobabble.

This is your daughter, not some random adult. You are not infantilizing her by doing her a favor she asked you to do for her. And even if you are, she is your daughter and she is going through an extremely stressful, intense, and probably confusing phase of her life, and maybe she just needs her mommy. 

Seriously, my best advice to you is to stop viewing her as an “adult” and remember that she will always be your little girl, and that right now, she might really appreciate feeling like you’re there to help her and take care of her if she needs it. You don’t have to smother her with affection, but I would definitely err on the side of being extra-loving and supportive. 

The we have profoundly different psychologies and life experiences.  If you haven't been around people who are boundary pushers, controlling, enabling, patronizing and other forms of dysfunctional, you don't know what it's like to look back and see how destructive even things that were good intentioned can be.  That's why I'm focused on general principles.

[KSera]

1 hour ago, Amy in NH said:

 because transition should be a happy event

I think this has been kind of an unhelpful framing in current culture. It's one thing to say it's an event that the person should be supported through, and it's also one thing being happy for a person who is just changing name and pronouns and how they present themselves, but the positive spin on medical treatments that carry risk and harm I do not think has been beneficial. We don't normally celebrate someone finding out they need to take drugs for the rest of their life that carry some serious side effects. It's also not necessarily happy for the spouse/partner, though it sounds fine for this particular couple. I do think it can be quite hard for partners who are given the message they should be happy about the transition, when it has serious implications for them that aren't what they wanted in a relationship, but they feel like they aren't allowed to express that.

39 minutes ago, HS Mom in NC said:

The frustrating thing is that my 77 year old mother and step-daddon't text.  It seems to be a point of pride for her to not be in on new trends. It's phone call or in person as emails may or may not be checked.

I'm sorry. That makes it harder. I get the idea your dynamic might be like mine, where I would most definitely want to do it by text or email. My mom is very gossipy and would want to ask all kinds of questions and I am terrible on the spot and wouldn't feel like it was appropriate for me to get into the weeds in answering the inevitable questions, yet I always seem to fumble when asked questions and not have a good on the spot way to reply. I would practice some of the suggested replies above ahead of time if it were me.

8 minutes ago, HS Mom in NC said:

If they're in therapy and it's brought up with a therapist there could be advice to distance themselves from me or change the relationship dynamic because I didn't respect them as adults, and I'm an adult who is older and should've known better. 

My dc went through a therapist like this. That therapist made life much more difficult for dc for awhile because the therapist drove a wedge in our relationship, which caused a lot of unhappiness for dc, who was then without their major support system (us). They eventually dropped that therapist and resumed our regular relationship and were much happier. I don't expect that would happen just from being the one to share the news though. It's pretty common for people to ask their family members to be the ones to do that and I don't expect a therapist would interpret that negatively. Unless the gossip came back to bite them and then it was shared as if you had been gossiping about them. Ai-yi-yi. Yeah, I can actually see your caution there in that case. These aren't kids though, and this isn't a cancer diagnosis where they are unhappy about it, so I don't think those things apply. If this is something they are confident and happy about, it seems they should be able to share it. It's going to be something they have to face in many situations going forward, so they do need to be prepared for that.

[Terabith]

6 minutes ago, HS Mom in NC said:

He's definitely not someone who would go along with something he didn't genuinely agree with.  Not.at.all.  He makes me look wishy-washy, cowed, and people pleasing by comparison-not something I have a reputation for. Also, let's not start assuming people don't really mean what they say-that's infantalizing, gaslighting, and condescending.  It's like that person I once heard correct an Eskimo who introduced themselves as being Eskimo. The Eskimo lady was NOT happy to have someone else tell her how she should identify, especially a person who wasn't Eskimo.   It was insulting.

I'm not saying how anyone should identify.  I'm saying your daughter's spouse said she was "Okay with male pronouns and birth name, but would prefer female pronouns and new name."  That's what she said.  It's not gaslighting to use her first choice of names and pronouns.  

[Catwoman]

4 minutes ago, HS Mom in NC said:

The we have profoundly different psychologies and life experiences.  If you haven't been around people who are boundary pushers, controlling, enabling, patronizing and other forms of dysfunctional, you don't know what it's like to look back and see how destructive even things that were good intentioned can be.  That's why I'm focused on general principles.

This is your DAUGHTER, not some psychological experiment. She is ASKING for your help and support. 

Forget about “general principles” and just be her MOM. 

[KSera]

12 minutes ago, Terabith said:

if you don't take that burden that you were asked to do, is FAR more likely than the likelihood that a counselor will tell your daughter to cut you off because you infantilized them by doing something they asked you to do.  

I agree with this, unfortunately.

 

[Catwoman]

9 minutes ago, HS Mom in NC said:

He's definitely not someone who would go along with something he didn't genuinely agree with.  Not.at.all.  He makes me look wishy-washy, cowed, and people pleasing by comparison-not something I have a reputation for. Also, let's not start assuming people don't really mean what they say-that's infantalizing, gaslighting, and condescending.  It's like that person I once heard correct an Eskimo who introduced themselves as being Eskimo. The Eskimo lady was NOT happy to have someone else tell her how she should identify, especially a person who wasn't Eskimo.   It was insulting.

Honestly, if he has such a strong personality that even you look wishy-washy, cowed, and people-pleasing by comparison, that is all the more reason to be extremely concerned that your dd is being bullied into accepting your SIL’s transition. He may not be doing it in a mean way, but she may not feel that she has any other option but to go along with what he wants because he is such a force of nature.

I really think you should try to take her away for a girls’ weekend and make sure that she is truly okay with all of this. I’m very concerned that your SIL may be manipulating her emotions. (I don’t mean that he is being intentionally abusive, just that he seems to have a very strong personality and could be intimidating without even realizing it.)

[Melissa Louise]

8 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Yeah, that's fair.  And changing titles like husband and wife are trickier, too.  I wasn't trying to call out anyone in particular, but I do think it's truly important that HS Mom start trying to use the new name and pronouns.  

This was the single most unhelpful bit of advice our family ever got, as it upped the stress everyone was under, instead of giving some processing time. We never used opposite sex pronouns, and that was for a way more vulnerable minor, and was with the clinic's ok. (That doesn't mean we ran around shouting 'he/him in his face.)

SIL is not the only person in the family. HS Mom is clearly a kind MIL so let's give her the same courtesy we would give SIL and let her work this out in her own time. 

SIL is not a baby. If he can undertake transition, he can undertake clear communication. He has said he does not need to be called she or her at this time. Others are not beholden to mind read and discern that he 'really' means...

Additionally, we're not speaking to the SIL. Unless you have reason to think he is a poster on this board, it doesn't matter that we continue to call a male person he. For some of us - people who ARE on the board - it might matter very much that we don't have perform lying ( as we perceive it) for a stranger. 

(Before anyone jumps down my throat, enby friend is staying here tonight, yes, I call enby name/they, yes, I made dinner for enby and bonus kid last night so just don't). 

This particular scolding type behaviour grinds my gears. 

 

 

[Harriet Vane]

5 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

This is your DAUGHTER, not some psychological experiment. She is ASKING for your help and support. 

Forget about “general principles” and just be her MOM. 

Gently, this framing is not helpful. It is a delicate situation with layers of complexity. Hs Mom in NC rightly understands that emotions are riding high and wants to be careful. It's not really obvious what it means to just be her mom. As far as I can see, Hs Mom in NC has expressed her love for both her daughter and sil as good moms do. It's not necessarily being a MOM to unequivocally do or not do what our kids ask because human beings and human interactions ARE complicated.

[Drama Llama]

17 minutes ago, HS Mom in NC said:

The we have profoundly different psychologies and life experiences.  If you haven't been around people who are boundary pushers, controlling, enabling, patronizing and other forms of dysfunctional, you don't know what it's like to look back and see how destructive even things that were good intentioned can be.  That's why I'm focused on general principles.

Wouldn't a general principle be that when someone asks you to do something, and you say you'll do it, you either do it or tell them that you can't as soon as you realize?  

Are you saying the bolded applies to your daughter?  

[Catwoman]

Just now, Harriet Vane said:

Gently, this framing is not helpful. It is a delicate situation with layers of complexity. Hs Mom in NC rightly understands that emotions are riding high and wants to be careful. It's not really obvious what it means to just be her mom. As far as I can see, Hs Mom in NC has expressed her love for both her daughter and sil as good moms do. It's not necessarily being a MOM to unequivocally do or not do what our kids ask because human beings and human interactions ARE complicated.

Sorry, but we’re going to have to agree to disagree on this one. (And I never said that she has to absolutely do everything her daughter asked her to do; that was not my point at all.)

[Melissa Louise]

Any therapist who encouraged your dd to cut you off because you don't tell other people about SIL's news, OP, should be struck off. 

And anyone who is using fear to manipulate you? Needs to stop. 

You are ALLOWED to have time to process this, you do NOT have to be joyous, and telling your parents on their behalf should only be done because you feel able and willing, not with a threat to the relationship being held over your head. 

You are also a person, your perspectives and needs are as valid as any of the other adults in this scenario. 

[MercyA]

I think it's fine if you tell your relatives for them, since you've been asked to do so, and also perfectly fine to change your mind and tell them you're not comfortable doing it.

Mostly I wanted to say that I think you're handling this in a very Scripturally sound way, drawing on wisdom from the whole of the New Testament. I admire your discernment.

 

[1234]

I thought I’d chime in to say that while I did tell my family for ds (only 16 at the time though), it did take me a bit. Dh had told his family months before I was able to tell my own. Ds understood thankfully and we had many discussions about it being ok to take a while with his therapist. When I did tell my family, I sent a group email. Then, I unplugged for the rest of the day and didn’t even begin to deal with the reactions for 24 hours.

 So, I don’t think you have to do it but it would obviously be helpful since they asked. Since you have until Thanksgiving to deal with it, maybe it’s something you could eventually do as you’ve had more time to process it all. 

[Terabith]

8 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

You are ALLOWED to have time to process this, you do NOT have to be joyous, and telling your parents on their behalf should only be done because you feel able and willing, not with a threat to the relationship being held over your head. 

You are also a person, your perspectives and needs are as valid as any of the other adults in this scenario. 

I'm certainly not telling anyone they need to be joyous.  I think there is real, genuine joy and relief in a person transitioning and becoming their true self, and I think there is also real, genuine grief.  HSMom doesn't have to be joyous.  She should be allowed to process it.  Of course.  What I'm saying she should do is:  1) do what SIL asked her to do and pass on the news to family members, since she said she would do so, and 2) use SIL's new name and pronouns, that are her first choice name and pronouns, to the best of her ability.  

Of course HSMom has a lot to process.  But the people who have the most to process and who are most affected are SIL and her daughter.  And as a mother, I would do what I could to make her daughter's life easier, including telling extended family.  

And I know first hand how much that really, truly sucks.  

Edited March 31, 2022 by Terabith

[HS Mom in NC]

9 minutes ago, Terabith said:

How does news in general pass in your family?  

I mean, in my family, I talk to my mother every week or so.  I text with my sister once in awhile.  And I NEVER call or communicate with any of the aunts or cousins.  We like and sometimes comment on each other's facebook posts, but even that is pretty sporadic.  But my mother talks often with her sisters (my aunts).  So when the news is things like a job change or a pregnancy or a surgery or any number of things like that, the general mode of communication goes from me to my mom and from my mom to the extended family, even my sister.  Is that infantilizing?  I don't think so.  It's just the general modes of communication and who usually talks to whom.  

I mean, there's a lot of wacky counselors in the world, but I think the odds that a counselor would criticize you for saying you would pass on news that is exhausting to tell and to whom they have to tell everyone else, when they asked you to do so, if you don't take that burden that you were asked to do, is FAR more likely than the likelihood that a counselor will tell your daughter to cut you off because you infantilized them by doing something they asked you to do.  

People announce their own stuff for big life events.  I only talk to my mother once a month about vague, generally stuff like books, movies, hobbies, employment, and gardening because she's always ready to go off about whatever she doesn't approve of.  My daughters don't talk to her more than a time or two a year and then it's usually vague and chit chatty. None of my mother's granddaughters talk to her or invited her to their weddings because she would've found something to go off about-like it that it wasn't  religious or on a church, even though none claim to be religious at all.

My parents and my in-laws are shallow friends who don't really like each other, but attend the same Bible study at my parents' house with a mutual friend circle where my MIL and FIL over share and my mother sits in the corner thinly veiling her fuming when my in-laws ask for even legitimate requests like prayer for my daughters' issues, including my oldest daughter's mental health issues, which embarrass my mother.

When my FIL gets info he doesn't like, like when my husband left the faith, he got himself in such a dither he had to go to the ER for heart issues and had to go on and on about it publicly at church-while I was in the room.  So I had to walk up to the pastor and whisper in his ear in my Mommy Is Very Displeased Voice, "You need to put an end to this NOW, Joel." And he bubbled for a moment and then cut it off with a , "OK, let's always remember to pray for our loved ones.  Moving on..."

So these aren't annoyed, disapproving types, this is huge nasty drama, but it's reality. I've been dealing with it for all of my 49 years, and I started addressing it in my teens and 20s when I made life decisions that didn't get approval because, as I saw it, it was part of being an adult.  By 24 I had 2 kids and it would've never occurred to me to have someone else deal with my relatives on my behalf.  Nothing's gotten worse, it's just old familiar stuff. I could handle it then, I handle it now. So why can't they? No one WANTS to deal with crap, but crap cometh anyway.

When my brother knocked up his fling (at 30)he came to me and I told him to tell Mom himself. I mean, sheesh!  If you're old enough to have sex, surely you're old enough to tell Mommy you made a baby even though you weren't married. Yeah, it's going to suck, but I didn't knock anyone up, so it's not my news to break to anyone.

5 years ago my niece (19 at the time) , living at my parents' house with her newly divorced father, decided she didn't want to parent her toddler and wanted to place the baby for adoption (online with strangers she never met, not through an agency) and I found out about it because she texted my daughter and her own father. I convinced her to give me the toddler until she worked out proper adoption channels, then it fell on me again to break the news to my crazy parents.  Since contacting human traffickers and severe mental illness in the custodial parent were factors, I did. My parents were furious and spewed all kinds of screaming and hate my way (because they wouldn't be in control of what was happening and they'd be embarrassed) which I'm willing to do for a helpless 18 month old.  But I'm not dealing with helpless toddlers now. 

I'm getting tired of being the one to handle other people's blow back.  Just because I can take tremendous amounts of heat when I know it's necessary, doesn't make every difficult situation every family member has my responsibility.

[Terabith]

1 minute ago, HS Mom in NC said:

People announce their own stuff for big life events.  I only talk to my mother once a month about vague, generally stuff like books, movies, hobbies, employment, and gardening because she's always ready to go off about whatever she doesn't approve of.  My daughters don't talk to her more than a time or two a year and then it's usually vague and chit chatty. None of my mother's granddaughters talk to her or invited her to their weddings because she would've found something to go off about-like it that it wasn't  religious or on a church, even though none claim to be religious at all.

My parents and my in-laws are shallow friends who don't really like each other, but attend the same Bible study at my parents' house with a mutual friend circle where my MIL and FIL over share and my mother sits in the corner thinly veiling her fuming when my in-laws ask for even legitimate requests like prayer for my daughters' issues, including my oldest daughter's mental health issues, which embarrass my mother.

When my FIL gets info he doesn't like, like when my husband left the faith, he got himself in such a dither he had to go to the ER for heart issues and had to go on and on about it publicly at church-while I was in the room.  So I had to walk up to the pastor and whisper in his ear in my Mommy Is Very Displeased Voice, "You need to put an end to this NOW, Joel." And he bubbled for a moment and then cut it off with a , "OK, let's always remember to pray for our loved ones.  Moving on..."

So these aren't annoyed, disapproving types, this is huge nasty drama, but it's reality. I've been dealing with it for all of my 49 years, and I started addressing it in my teens and 20s when I made life decisions that didn't get approval because, as I saw it, it was part of being an adult.  By 24 I had 2 kids and it would've never occurred to me to have someone else deal with my relatives on my behalf.  Nothing's gotten worse, it's just old familiar stuff. I could handle it then, I handle it now. So why can't they? No one WANTS to deal with crap, but crap cometh anyway.

When my brother knocked up his fling (at 30)he came to me and I told him to tell Mom himself. I mean, sheesh!  If you're old enough to have sex, surely you're old enough to tell Mommy you made a baby even though you weren't married. Yeah, it's going to suck, but I didn't knock anyone up, so it's not my news to break to anyone.

5 years ago my niece (19 at the time) , living at my parents' house with her newly divorced father, decided she didn't want to parent her toddler and wanted to place the baby for adoption (online with strangers she never met, not through an agency) and I found out about it because she texted my daughter and her own father. I convinced her to give me the toddler until she worked out proper adoption channels, then it fell on me again to break the news to my crazy parents.  Since contacting human traffickers and severe mental illness in the custodial parent were factors, I did. My parents were furious and spewed all kinds of screaming and hate my way (because they wouldn't be in control of what was happening and they'd be embarrassed) which I'm willing to do for a helpless 18 month old.  But I'm not dealing with helpless toddlers now. 

I'm getting tired of being the one to handle other people's blow back.  Just because I can take tremendous amounts of heat when I know it's necessary, doesn't make every difficult situation every family member has my responsibility.

Okay, that certainly does put a different spin on things.  

Honestly, why on earth are your daughter and SIL going there for Thanksgiving?  Can't they just bow out of the extended family gatherings and get togethers?  

In this situation, I would not want to tell the family either, and I would just have them quietly exit the extended family, because my God, this seems like way too much toxicity and drama to put up with.  

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, Terabith said:

I'm certainly not telling anyone they need to be joyous.  I think there is real, genuine joy and relief in a person transitioning and becoming their true self, and I think there is also real, genuine grief.  HSMom doesn't have to be joyous.  She should be allowed to process it.  Of course.  What I'm saying she should do is:  1) do what SIL asked her to do and pass on the news to family members, since she said she would do so, and 2) use SIL's new name and pronouns, that are her first choice name and pronouns, to the best of her ability.  

Of course HSMom has a lot to process.  But the people who have the most to process and who are most affected are SIL and her daughter.  And as a mother, I would do what I could to make her daughter's life easier, including telling extended family.  

And I know first hand how much that really, truly sucks.  

Long way to say, suck it up Mom, even though you are, as per first post, already at overwhelm and have a personal philosophical/religious position to be worked through. Moms of adult children are not just momming machines, and it's good for adult children to get their heads around that. 

 

 

[HS Mom in NC]

9 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Any therapist who encouraged your dd to cut you off because you don't tell other people about SIL's news, OP, should be struck off. 

And anyone who is using fear to manipulate you? Needs to stop. 

You are ALLOWED to have time to process this, you do NOT have to be joyous, and telling your parents on their behalf should only be done because you feel able and willing, not with a threat to the relationship being held over your head. 

You are also a person, your perspectives and needs are as valid as any of the other adults in this scenario. 

Don't over state it.  I didn't say cut off, I said distance (which isn't always physical, it can be emotional distancing, which I'm the master at emotional distancing from my own mother for her both subtle and overt over-stepping) or change the relationship dynamic.  Those are very different than cut off-let's not tell ourselves otherwise.

And thank you so much for specifically stating that I'm a person and my perspectives and needs are just as valid. It's probably the most important thing a someone could've said to me because the worst part of having the reputation of being the person capable of putting my own feelings and needs aside when difficult things need doing, is that it seems like people expect me to do so even though we haven't established that it's necessary.

[HS Mom in NC]

7 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Okay, that certainly does put a different spin on things.  

Honestly, why on earth are your daughter and SIL going there for Thanksgiving?  Can't they just bow out of the extended family gatherings and get togethers?  

In this situation, I would not want to tell the family either, and I would just have them quietly exit the extended family, because my God, this seems like way too much toxicity and drama to put up with.  

Yeah, I wonder that too. I think that's another topic I need to ask daughter about.

[Melissa Louise]

6 minutes ago, HS Mom in NC said:

I'm getting tired of being the one to handle other people's blow back.  Just because I can take tremendous amounts of heat when I know it's necessary, doesn't make every difficult situation every family member has my responsibility.

This is the nub of it, and it's fair, given the 'kids' are adults. You are allowed to feel and express this, and even make decisions on that basis. You don't have to, but you're allowed to. 

 

[Melissa Louise]

5 minutes ago, HS Mom in NC said:

Don't over state it.  I didn't say cut off, I said distance (which isn't always physical, it can be emotional distancing, which I'm the master at emotional distancing from my own mother for her both subtle and overt over-stepping) or change the relationship dynamic.  Those are very different than cut off-let's not tell ourselves otherwise.

And thank you so much for specifically stating that I'm a person and my perspectives and needs are just as valid. It's probably the most important thing a someone could've said to me because the worst part of having the reputation of being the person capable of putting my own feelings and needs aside when difficult things need doing, is that it seems like people expect me to do so even though we haven't established that it's necessary.

Do you think some therapeutic support for you might be helpful? 

Old family of origin  patterns + new stressful situation can be hard to handle. 

It could possibly give you space to just have your emotions as well, including the fear that dd will distance from you. 

(Unscrupulous/untrained therapists may encourage this, treating lack of immediate affirmation as abuse - it's not a fear you're imagining - but FOO stuff might be amplifying it in an unhelpful way). 

 

 

[katilac]

1 hour ago, HS Mom in NC said:

The frustrating thing is that my 77 year old mother and step-daddon't text.  It seems to be a point of pride for her to not be in on new trends. It's phone call or in person as emails may or may not be checked.

No, it could also be a letter, as they like to be old-fashioned! Which the young couple can send. 

14 minutes ago, HS Mom in NC said:

 attend the same Bible study at my parents' house with a mutual friend circle 

When worlds collide 💀

I would hate that, and neither my parents nor my in-laws are particularly difficult, lol 

[Amy in NH]

18 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Okay, that certainly does put a different spin on things.  

Honestly, why on earth are your daughter and SIL going there for Thanksgiving?  Can't they just bow out of the extended family gatherings and get togethers?  

In this situation, I would not want to tell the family either, and I would just have them quietly exit the extended family, because my God, this seems like way too much toxicity and drama to put up with.  

I agree with this.  I informed all of the extended family - some supportive, and some bigots - when dd started to transition as an older teen.  She has chosen since that time not to attend 99% of family gatherings because she doesn't want to deal with misgendering and deadnaming.  DH has a niece getting married this summer, and even though dd would have chosen not to attend had she been invited, she was not invited.  DH is more upset about it than she is, because she knows who the bigots are and has intentionally cut that toxicity out of her life.

And yes there was some grief attached to the experience, but also a great deal of relief.  I have joy for my dd that she is finally happy living as her authentic self.

Edited March 31, 2022 by Amy in NH
fix typo

[Catwoman]

15 minutes ago, Amy in NH said:

I agree with this.  I informed all of the extended family - some supportive, and some bigots - when dd started to transition as an older teen.  She has chosen since that time not to attend 99% of family gatherings because she doesn't want to deal with misgendering and deadnaming.  DH has a niece getting married this summer, and even though dd would have chosen not to attend had she been invited, she was not invited.  DH is more upset about it than she is, because she knows who the bigots are and has intentionally cut that toxicity out of her life.

And yes there was some grief attached to the experience, but also a great deal of relief.  I have joy for my dd that she is finally happy living as her authentic self.

I’m so happy for your dd, Amy — and for you, too, because you get to share in her happiness! 🙂 

[Katy]

1 hour ago, HS Mom in NC said:

The we have profoundly different psychologies and life experiences.  If you haven't been around people who are boundary pushers, controlling, enabling, patronizing and other forms of dysfunctional, you don't know what it's like to look back and see how destructive even things that were good intentioned can be.  That's why I'm focused on general principles.

Are you saying your daughter is toxic too?  Because before I read below I sort of thought her opinion is the only one that matters.

59 minutes ago, HS Mom in NC said:

People announce their own stuff for big life events.  I only talk to my mother once a month about vague, generally stuff like books, movies, hobbies, employment, and gardening because she's always ready to go off about whatever she doesn't approve of.  My daughters don't talk to her more than a time or two a year and then it's usually vague and chit chatty. None of my mother's granddaughters talk to her or invited her to their weddings because she would've found something to go off about-like it that it wasn't  religious or on a church, even though none claim to be religious at all.

My parents and my in-laws are shallow friends who don't really like each other, but attend the same Bible study at my parents' house with a mutual friend circle where my MIL and FIL over share and my mother sits in the corner thinly veiling her fuming when my in-laws ask for even legitimate requests like prayer for my daughters' issues, including my oldest daughter's mental health issues, which embarrass my mother.

When my FIL gets info he doesn't like, like when my husband left the faith, he got himself in such a dither he had to go to the ER for heart issues and had to go on and on about it publicly at church-while I was in the room.  So I had to walk up to the pastor and whisper in his ear in my Mommy Is Very Displeased Voice, "You need to put an end to this NOW, Joel." And he bubbled for a moment and then cut it off with a , "OK, let's always remember to pray for our loved ones.  Moving on..."

So these aren't annoyed, disapproving types, this is huge nasty drama, but it's reality. I've been dealing with it for all of my 49 years, and I started addressing it in my teens and 20s when I made life decisions that didn't get approval because, as I saw it, it was part of being an adult.  By 24 I had 2 kids and it would've never occurred to me to have someone else deal with my relatives on my behalf.  Nothing's gotten worse, it's just old familiar stuff. I could handle it then, I handle it now. So why can't they? No one WANTS to deal with crap, but crap cometh anyway.

When my brother knocked up his fling (at 30)he came to me and I told him to tell Mom himself. I mean, sheesh!  If you're old enough to have sex, surely you're old enough to tell Mommy you made a baby even though you weren't married. Yeah, it's going to suck, but I didn't knock anyone up, so it's not my news to break to anyone.

5 years ago my niece (19 at the time) , living at my parents' house with her newly divorced father, decided she didn't want to parent her toddler and wanted to place the baby for adoption (online with strangers she never met, not through an agency) and I found out about it because she texted my daughter and her own father. I convinced her to give me the toddler until she worked out proper adoption channels, then it fell on me again to break the news to my crazy parents.  Since contacting human traffickers and severe mental illness in the custodial parent were factors, I did. My parents were furious and spewed all kinds of screaming and hate my way (because they wouldn't be in control of what was happening and they'd be embarrassed) which I'm willing to do for a helpless 18 month old.  But I'm not dealing with helpless toddlers now. 

I'm getting tired of being the one to handle other people's blow back.  Just because I can take tremendous amounts of heat when I know it's necessary, doesn't make every difficult situation every family member has my responsibility.

I think it's perfectly within your rights to say you can't or won't bring yourself to break the news to the parents.  I just think it's much more supportive to break the news for them.

I'm more worried for your daughter than anything else.

[goldberry]

19 hours ago, DawnM said:

I have yet to find a situation where the spouse stays.   I am not saying it can't or doesn't happen, just that every situation I have known personally has not worked out.   Your daughter will probably need a lot of support and letting her know that she can trust you now would go a long way in that.   

 

The trans person I know the best was married about 10 years pre transition and about 15yrs to present post-transition. Her wife said it was not easy but she loved her and was willing to work through the many issues. Wife viewed herself as traditional cis female so it was not an easy thing. They did make it though.

[El...]

I'm not going to quote that, HS Mom, but man, that sounds really fraught and hard. I'm sorry it's like that. 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

I really don’t have words of wisdom.  I have a lot of thoughts, but I don’t think anyone of them would be helpful.  I absolutely admire how, as a Christian, you’ve chosen to handle this.

So I am praying for you, and I trust God will lead you in whatever way is best. 

[kristin0713]

@HS Mom in NC 

After everything else that you’ve posted, I want to reiterate that I still absolutely believe that you are under no obligation to be the bearer of this news. The whole dynamic with extended family seems very toxic and even bizarre re: your parents and ILs attending Bible study together but not liking each other etc.  I also would not attend Thanksgiving with this crowd and just host your own kids for a smaller, quiet, and less stressful and dramatic dinner. 

But I do also have to say that I’m still concerned about your DD given the strong personality of your SIL and your DD’s autism. I really hope she is able to process and evaluate this independently and without manipulation and move forward in a healthy way in her life, whatever that way is.  

 

[Danae]

5 hours ago, HS Mom in NC said:

And thank you so much for specifically stating that I'm a person and my perspectives and needs are just as valid. It's probably the most important thing a someone could've said to me because the worst part of having the reputation of being the person capable of putting my own feelings and needs aside when difficult things need doing, is that it seems like people expect me to do so even though we haven't established that it's necessary.

Is this why you're looking for a moral imperative against you being the one to bear the news  . . . because you don't think you can say no just because you don't want to do it?  It's okay for you to say no to doing this favor for them even if doing it would be a perfectly fine and even kind thing to do.  You get to say, "no, I don't want to be the one to do this" when you don't want to do something that is not your responsibility, even when it would also be perfectly fine to say, "sure, I can do that for you."  

[melmichigan]

22 hours ago, Catwoman said:

I think the disparity here is that you were fortunate enough to find an open-minded, fair, unbiased therapist who truly wanted what was best for your child -- but I remember Melissa Louise's experiences, and sadly, they were quite the opposite. 😞 

Yes, the therapist, while recommended by the hospital/provider was independent and not part of any program or clinic.

[DawnM]

16 hours ago, goldberry said:

The trans person I know the best was married about 10 years pre transition and about 15yrs to present post-transition. Her wife said it was not easy but she loved her and was willing to work through the many issues. Wife viewed herself as traditional cis female so it was not an easy thing. They did make it though.

Yeah, as I said, I am sure there are some.....I wonder if there is a statistic somewhere?   I should look it up.

And this isn't just about transitioning, it is about any huge change in the person you married.    I read that 80% of spouses who get weight loss surgery and lose the weight end up in divorce.  

[Faith-manor]

18 hours ago, Terabith said:

Okay, that certainly does put a different spin on things.  

Honestly, why on earth are your daughter and SIL going there for Thanksgiving?  Can't they just bow out of the extended family gatherings and get togethers?  

In this situation, I would not want to tell the family either, and I would just have them quietly exit the extended family, because my God, this seems like way too much toxicity and drama to put up with.  

Yes, this. They should not subject themselves to it. We have a similar situation in our family, and the toxic folks are cut off and not in the know. That is THEIR fault, not ours, and we decided not to have it in our lives.

I would urge this couple to NOT put themselves in a position to be abused by these grandparents.

[Harriet Vane]

I've been thinking about this one quite a bit. I am similar to you in theology, in respecting other people's choices for spiritual beliefs and lifestyle, and in crazy family.

It's easy for me to see you agreeing in the moment to share news without thinking through all that your agreement means for you personally. I think it's fine to go back to them and say you'd rather they share their own information as adults. People do that all the time--they say, "You know, I hadn't thought that all through, and I'd like to revisit this because I'd rather you handle [fill in the task]."

I also think it's valid for you to share the news as a simple update and then move on. Both communicating or not communicating are valid options. I don't see a moral imperative either way, and I think different people might make different choices on that based on the specific individuals and behavior norms in their circles.

I think back to many years ago when someone dear to me was very much in the throes of drug addiction. I found myself in the middle between the person I cared about and the rest of the family system, and it was complicated. So complicated. There was an ongoing expectation of me being the diplomat between the two sides and the negotiator and the listener for everyone. That season with those people left me scarred for life, quite frankly. The only other time I willingly put myself into that position was when we had foster children in the house and had to deal with both the birth family and the dysfunctional county. Based on those experiences, I would say to keep out of the middle--often being in the middle enables boundary-less behavior on both sides and heaping of expectations on you. That is unfair, no matter what the issue is.

[Dmmetler]

I also think I'd want to get clarity on who exactly to tell and when. People who you'd see at Easter, yeah, I'd let them know so they have a little time to process, but Thanksgiving is a bit out yet. People who you might see at a funeral three years from now...even less so. Part of this is probably due to the fact that most of the trans folks I know are teens, but it seems like it might be good for DIL and SIL to have a chance to explore this and figure things out before extended family they don't see regularly become part of the conversation. 

[Drama Llama]

42 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

I also think I'd want to get clarity on who exactly to tell and when. People who you'd see at Easter, yeah, I'd let them know so they have a little time to process, but Thanksgiving is a bit out yet. People who you might see at a funeral three years from now...even less so. Part of this is probably due to the fact that most of the trans folks I know are teens, but it seems like it might be good for DIL and SIL to have a chance to explore this and figure things out before extended family they don't see regularly become part of the conversation. 

If they shared the news the day before starting medication, wouldn't it be likely that they have been exploring this for a while?  I thought that starting medication was a relatively late step in the process and usually happens after a lot of reflection and figuring things out.  

I think that the choice of who and when to tell belongs 100% to the young couple.  Obviously, it's up to @HS Mom in NC whether or not she's involved in the telling.  

It might be helpful if when HS Mom tells them what she's decided, whether that she's decided to share after the visit, or that she's decided she's not comfortable being the one to share, that she says "when I thought about telling them in the context of the visit, I realized it would almost certainly go badly.  I imagined it would go like this . . . . and I changed my mind about doing it there.  It gave me a lot of empathy for you, and also made me realize that if I were you, I'd be very hesitant about sharing Thanksgiving with people I expect to be hostile.  I'm not telling you what to do, but just sharing my own thoughts."  Or something.  

[KSera]

15 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

If they shared the news the day before starting medication, wouldn't it be likely that they have been exploring this for a while?  I thought that starting medication was a relatively late step in the process and usually happens after a lot of reflection and figuring things out.  

I think that the choice of who and when to tell belongs 100% to the young couple.  Obviously, it's up to @HS Mom in NC whether or not she's involved in the telling.  

It might be helpful if when HS Mom tells them what she's decided, whether that she's decided to share after the visit, or that she's decided she's not comfortable being the one to share, that she says "when I thought about telling them in the context of the visit, I realized it would almost certainly go badly.  I imagined it would go like this . . . . and I changed my mind about doing it there.  It gave me a lot of empathy for you, and also made me realize that if I were you, I'd be very hesitant about sharing Thanksgiving with people I expect to be hostile.  I'm not telling you what to do, but just sharing my own thoughts."  Or something.  

I really like your phrasing in that last paragraph. As far as how long it’s been that they’ve been thinking about this, that could be anything. As I and I think someone else on this thread have shared, it’s possible for it to be a very quick turnaround for those who want it to be. Hopefully it’s not like that for this particular couple.

[HS Mom in NC]

On 3/31/2022 at 3:56 PM, Katy said:

Are you saying your daughter is toxic too?

?!?!?!??!?!??!?!?!??!?!?!??!?!?!?!??!?!I  have no idea how you came to such a conclusion. !?!?!?!?

No, I personally know what it is to have an over-stepping parent and I'm aware it can take time to really see all of it clearly, so there's NO WAY I would consider over-stepping even if asked to do so.  If my daughter and SIL get into therapy and start addressing family dynamics issues and come to realize that I over-stepped at their request, there will be genuine, deserved resentment coming my way.  I don't want to do that, so I'm sorting all this out now. 

I'm guessing people who don't get my caution probably aren't victims of this themselves, so it's like trying to describe color to someone who is blind-it's not shared experience.

Also, people who aren't particularly independent personalities might not grasp how problematic it is for both parties when one party oversteps. It might not be a big deal to some, but any encroachment can really cause relationship problems for people who are. "Being nice" to one person can be quite the opposite to another.

And frankly, when do I get to retire from being someone's mommy who handles their tough stuff?  I had in mind it would be when my kids were in their 20s. My daughter has been self-supporting and living on her own since she was 18 (she graduated early.) She has a career, owns a house, own a car she saved up for, manages her medical issues, pays taxes on investments, etc.  It's all very adulty in her world and has been for some time now. I have one 16 year old at home.

[HS Mom in NC]

On 3/31/2022 at 2:42 PM, Baseballandhockey said:

Wouldn't a general principle be that when someone asks you to do something, and you say you'll do it, you either do it or tell them that you can't as soon as you realize?  

Are you saying the bolded applies to your daughter?  

No, I have a parent who does that and I don't want to be that parent even if asked to over-step my role in a situation.

[Katy]

4 minutes ago, HS Mom in NC said:

?!?!?!??!?!??!?!?!??!?!?!??!?!?!?!??!?!I  have no idea how you came to such a conclusion. !?!?!?!?

No, I personally know what it is to have an over-stepping parent and I'm aware it can take time to really see all of it clearly, so there's NO WAY I would consider over-stepping even if asked to do so.  If my daughter and SIL get into therapy and start addressing family dynamics issues and come to realize that I over-stepped at their request, there will be genuine, deserved resentment coming my way.  I don't want to do that, so I'm sorting all this out now. 

I'm guessing people who don't get my caution probably aren't victims of this themselves, so it's like trying to describe color to someone who is blind-it's not shared experience.

Also, people who aren't particularly independent personalities might not grasp how problematic it is for both parties when one party oversteps. It might not be a big deal to some, but any encroachment can really cause relationship problems for people who are. "Being nice" to one person can be quite the opposite to another.

And frankly, when do I get to retire from being someone's mommy who handles their tough stuff?  I had in mind it would be when my kids were in their 20s. My daughter has been self-supporting and living on her own since she was 18 (she graduated early.) She has a career, owns a house, own a car she saved up for, manages her medical issues, pays taxes on investments, etc.  It's all very adulty in her world and has been for some time now. I have one 16 year old at home.

I suspect the line is in being asked. You’re never overstepping if you’re being asked to do it instead of assuming you should. If the overstepping is bothering you, that isn’t an issue. 

If you don’t want to handle it because you want her to deal with her own blow blowback then you certainly have a right to refuse. But I wouldn’t assume refusing to have the difficult conversation means you won’t get drawn in with the difficult people AND be resented by DD for changing your mind. 

[HS Mom in NC]

Thanks, this thread has been helpful to work through various aspects of this situation, and on the late night drive last night to oldest's house for another urgent medical situation, I think I've better clarified for myself why I'm so conflicted about being the town crier, so here's where I cam now:

I have no intention of being an over-stepper, even when asked to do so. In the future, on reflection, my daughter could lose respect for me and I'd definitely lose respect for myself. I have been on the receiving end from my own mother's boundary issues and I'm well aware of the resentment even small encroachments can create. I can't go over-stepping after everything I've said (which is a lot over the years) about how bad it is based on my own experience.

I don't want to be conscripted into someone else's war because I'm battle hardened and I know what that choice entails. I have my mother fairly well trained when interacting with me 80% of the time because I have a very long history (since I was teen) of pushing back, not backing down, and and taking control of the situation (the location, conversation topics , limiting contact, etc.)  Others in the family let her intimidate them, but I don't. Their choice. I've had no problem at all being the buffer on the few occasions my kids needed me to when they were (are, youngest is 16) minors.  I have no intention of taking on that role on the behalf of capable adults. They'll have to decide just how much of their own energy they want to put into dealing with what comes of it. If they want to push back and train her on how to interact with them-more power to them. 

The kids involved are not minors, they're not struggling young adults. They're professionals with adult lives and everything that goes with it. So it's time they made their choices and dealt with whatever comes of it:
1. continue a relationship with my mother and push back against her crap
2. continue a relationship with my mother and put up with her crap
3. discontinue a relationship with my mother

They can do whatever they want, but if they choose to continue, they can't use me as a buffer to absorb the inevitable blow back that will come with it. They can't drag me into their relationship with my mother. Like my brother, they'll have to break news she isn't going to like themselves and deal with the consequences because they're adults capable of handling their own adult relationships.  They're perfectly within their rights to choose not to continue what little relationship is left.  I have no problem at all with that-life is full of natural consequences. Oldest was in AZ with her husband the week before we were.  She chose not to visit with my side of the family.  She saw my in-laws briefly because my in-laws can hold it together and be pleasant for a short, couple of hour visit. Her choice.  I support whatever choice she makes on that. 

When daughter and SIL  tell my mother, I'm certain I'll get phone calls from her wanting to go on and on about it and dig for more info.  She did that with me over another granddaughter who refuses to spend time with her, wanting info about granddaughter's husband and what she perceives as a coldness from him toward our side of the family. (Imagine!) (Their family stayed with us during a hurricane when they were evacuated.) I didn't play along.  I just said they're a lovely couple and we really enjoyed them, and the little boy is so sweet, and the cat was so cute, etc. I can do that no problem. That's easy. I do that with topics related to my kids already anyway.

I can't imagine any therapist telling daughter and/or SIL that their mom or mother-in-law should be the one to break the news. My guess is part of therapy will be thinking through how to break the news to different people, how they will likely react it, and how they will  deal with that.  It will also probably cover which family members they might want to consider not having a relationship with because of long histories of toxic behaviors.

[catz]

46 minutes ago, HS Mom in NC said:

And frankly, when do I get to retire from being someone's mommy who handles their tough stuff?  I had in mind it would be when my kids were in their 20s. My daughter has been self-supporting and living on her own since she was 18 (she graduated early.) She has a career, owns a house, own a car she saved up for, manages her medical issues, pays taxes on investments, etc.  It's all very adulty in her world and has been for some time now. I have one 16 year old at home.

You can anytime you want to lay out the boundary.  You can be kind and supportive and still think it may go better coming from them or just not have the bandwidth or whatever works for you.  I really think it's fine either way.  If they just want to avoid that family for a while, I think that is completely a fair choice too.  I have a young adult too and I think we're all walking this line letting go and them pulling away it's not like it happens overnight.  Every family dynamic is slightly different.  It can be heavy emotional work and not everyone always has the bandwidth to take that on.  I really don't think you can overstep when you are asked to help with something, but it's also fair to say you're not prepared.  Like thinking about that more, there is no way I would have used a trip to announce something like that when you were going to be trapped with them for days on end if you thought it wasn't going to go over well and you're still processing yourself.  

Either way though, I'd be prepared to lay down boundaries on your end if you are the typical go to and between in your family if your daughter and spouse do make an announcement.  You don't need to be anyone's punching bag for their own processing.  I would definitely think with the family dynamic you describe it's not like everyone is likely to retreat, process and come back ready to be supportive with whatever path these young people take.  

[Catwoman]

55 minutes ago, HS Mom in NC said:

And frankly, when do I get to retire from being someone's mommy who handles their tough stuff?  I had in mind it would be when my kids were in their 20s. My daughter has been self-supporting and living on her own since she was 18 (she graduated early.) She has a career, owns a house, own a car she saved up for, manages her medical issues, pays taxes on investments, etc.  It's all very adulty in her world and has been for some time now. I have one 16 year old at home.

Well, all I can say is that I always knew my parents were there for me until the day they died, whenever I needed them, whether it was for "tough stuff" or "ordinary stuff," and I hope to be the same way for my ds22. I'm always there for him when he needs to talk, and if he needs me to do something important for him, all he has to do is ask. My dh and I are the two people he knows he can always count on, 100 percent.

I never want to "retire from being someone's mommy." That's the job I happily signed on for when I had my son, and I wouldn't even think of "retiring" from it. 

Obviously, you should do whatever works for your family, but your way definitely wouldn't work for my family. 

[QueenCat]

21 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

Well, all I can say is that I always knew my parents were there for me until the day they died, whenever I needed them, whether it was for "tough stuff" or "ordinary stuff," and I hope to be the same way for my ds22. I'm always there for him when he needs to talk, and if he needs me to do something important for him, all he has to do is ask. My dh and I are the two people he knows he can always count on, 100 percent.

I never want to "retire from being someone's mommy." That's the job I happily signed on for when I had my son, and I wouldn't even think of "retiring" from it. 

Obviously, you should do whatever works for your family, but your way definitely wouldn't work for my family. 

Same here. To all of that. 

[QueenCat]

1 hour ago, HS Mom in NC said:

And frankly, when do I get to retire from being someone's mommy who handles their tough stuff?  I had in mind it would be when my kids were in their 20s. My daughter has been self-supporting and living on her own since she was 18 (she graduated early.) She has a career, owns a house, own a car she saved up for, manages her medical issues, pays taxes on investments, etc.  It's all very adulty in her world and has been for some time now. I have one 16 year old at home.

 

At one point, you mentioned this particular daughter being on the autism spectrum. Often, even if living on their own, they NEED help navigating tough situations for their entire lives. My ds is high-moderate Asperger's. He will ALWAYS have our backs and can ask us for assistance anytime. When we can't, others in the family will. That's how our family rolls. So can the other adult kid. I can't imagine my parents having not been there when I needed help with certain things as an adult. 

[KSera]

1 hour ago, QueenCat said:

 

At one point, you mentioned this particular daughter being on the autism spectrum. Often, even if living on their own, they NEED help navigating tough situations for their entire lives. My ds is high-moderate Asperger's. He will ALWAYS have our backs and can ask us for assistance anytime. When we can't, others in the family will. That's how our family rolls. So can the other adult kid. I can't imagine my parents having not been there when I needed help with certain things as an adult. 

I feel like there's an unfair insinuation that HS Mom in NC isn't just as there for her kids as you (or Catwoman) are for yours. She has mentioned the heavy load she is under from other kids' situations, including a serious mental health situation with her other adult dd (who she was just yesterday driving to help, so it's not like this is a mom who just boots her kids out when they turn 18). Some people are dealt harder hands than others and there does indeed come a point where in order to have anything left at all, a mom has to prioritize what she can and can't be responsible for. And dealing with a mental health crisis in a kid is so, so stressful and takes so much out of you. It goes back to Melissa Louise's comments about a mom still being allowed to be a person too.

I did go ahead and share the news with family when my own trans kid asked me to do so, as they are quite fragile, and I knew I could handle it, despite not wanting to deal with my family's "stuff" in response (gladly, I actually got very little back--I expect all that happened behind my back, which is fine). If my kid was older and stable and confident and I was in the middle of other crises though? I don't think I would lose my supportive mom status if I had said I couldn't take that one on right then. I don't think that's fair.

[Drama Llama]

2 hours ago, HS Mom in NC said:

I can't imagine any therapist telling daughter and/or SIL that their mom or mother-in-law should be the one to break the news. 

I guess I don't think a decent therapist would judge a mom/MIL for sharing what she was asked to share either.  

I think you should make the decision based on what you can handle.  You've mentioned concerns about infantilizing your daughter and her spouse, but I think that questioning their request, and implying that it's not a healthy thing that they asked is what's actually infantilizing.  I think you can say "I can't handle this right now" or "On reflection, I prefer not to do this" without implying that they were wrong to ask, or particularly that it was mentally unhealthy for them to ask.  

 

[Catwoman]

31 minutes ago, KSera said:

I feel like there's an unfair insinuation that HS Mom in NC isn't just as there for her kids as you (or Catwoman) are for yours. She has mentioned the heavy load she is under from other kids' situations, including a serious mental health situation with her other adult dd (who she was just yesterday driving to help, so it's not like this is a mom who just boots her kids out when they turn 18). Some people are dealt harder hands than others and there does indeed come a point where in order to have anything left at all, a mom has to prioritize what she can and can't be responsible for. And dealing with a mental health crisis in a kid is so, so stressful and takes so much out of you. It goes back to Melissa Louise's comments about a mom still being allowed to be a person too.

I did go ahead and share the news with family when my own trans kid asked me to do so, as they are quite fragile, and I knew I could handle it, despite not wanting to deal with my family's "stuff" in response (gladly, I actually got very little back--I expect all that happened behind my back, which is fine). If my kid was older and stable and confident and I was in the middle of other crises though? I don't think I would lose my supportive mom status if I had said I couldn't take that one on right then. I don't think that's fair.

Well, I can’t speak for Queen Cat, but this is not the first time I have seen HSMom express similar feelings over the years, so I am standing by what I said. 

Obviously, we can agree to disagree. 🙂