TY

[lauraw4321]

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Edited March 13, 2022 by lauraw4321
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[East Coast Sue]

Just hugs. I’m sorry you’re in this situation. It sounds like something I can relate to, unfortunately. 

[prairiewindmomma]

Don’t make any decisions today when you are already feeling low. Makes notes to reflect back on later if need be. 
 

How would finances, child custody, and the like work out for you? I would give some mental space to exploring divorce and then set aside some solo therapy time to discuss your marriage. I would also build up your friend social network.
 

I have a lot of friends for whom divorce has been a huge relief. I have others who have had to deal with issues that may not be ones for you—but being thrust into relative poverty, having inadequate retirement savings, and not having a social safety net of friends to step in. 

Is marital therapy something you are interested in? Y’all have had a lot of stressors to deal with and a neutral person to facilitate difficult conversations might be helpful.

Hugs!!

Edited March 12, 2022 by prairiewindmomma

[JustEm]

Have you 2 gone to marriage counselling to actually try to work out the issues you guys have?  Working on you is incredibly important and I truly believe it needs to happen before couples counselling because it is hard to work on a marriage when you aren't personally doing well ( says the person who has gone through a separation and came out the other end of it with an intact marriage that is stronger than ever.) 

Everything you type is probably pretty accurate, however, that doesn't mean it needs to stay that way.  But if he isn't willing to work on the marriage then their is nothing you can do but do what is best for you.  For me,  I asked for the separation after trying for years to fix the same issue over and over and dh never being able to.  Aside from that issue we had a solid marriage, but once it started effecting me outside of the occasional argument and it was really hurting my well being I was ready to walk if things didn't get fixed for good.  He stepped up and did what needed to be done and we were able to repair our marriage. But if he didn't step up I was fully prepared to live a life without him by my side because I was a better me without him and that issue.

Edited March 12, 2022 by hjffkj

[Dianthus]

Oh, I'm so sorry. He ran after you to apologize, which sounds to me like he cares.

I think your emotional state might be interpreting this worse than it is. I would tell my dh how I'm interpreting it and directly ask if he no longer likes me, IF you are ok with hearing either answer. If yes, and you love him, then schedule time together. If no, then you know, and can plan your exit, which you seem to be OK with already.

How old are your kids?

[Faith-manor]

I am so sorry you are going through this. 💓

My advice is to ask yourself what do you want to role model to your children. My husband's father did not like his mother so the marriage was very stressful and strained. Ultimately it had tangible, negative effects on the all the kids growing up, and on Dh's older siblings well into adulthood. His parents stayed together, but to this day all three of the kids will say that they wish their parents had separated. It is the same for my cousin with their parents. Now both parents need help, but neither of the adult kids can manage the situation with both of them so though 80 and 82, they are separating their parents, one parent moving in with each adult child, and figuring out all the finances is a bit of a nightmare. They really wish their parents had divorced and sorted out the mess years ago. Additionally, they are both scarred from their parents marriage and seeing how much their dad disrespected their mom. My male cousin subconsciously fell into some of the same patterns and ended up divorced from his first wife. He ended up in counseling and eventually worked it out and is now happily married. He also had to work at repairing some of that damage with his own son before the young man got married so history wouldn't repeat itself yet again.

So definitely give some thought to how the relationship affects the kids. Also, side note, there was a three year period in which my in laws did separate and during that time, my father in law was a far better father with his children than he was when living with mother in law. She was a better parent as well. It was unfortunate when they got back together.

 

[JustEm]

But with all the above I said,  it took a long time for me to know I would be ok without him and to know that I wasn't making a rash decision.  Only you can know those things about yourself.

[lauraw4321]

.

Edited March 13, 2022 by lauraw4321

[Corraleno]

I don't want to quote, but I will say that I could have written your second paragraph myself, word for word, right down to the complaint about my ex never getting his way, when in fact he always got his way and our entire lives revolved around me bending over backwards to accommodate an Aspie with ADHD. He also said some extremely hurtful and untrue things that made me realize that his image of me and of our relationship was incredibly distorted. And I still put up with it for much longer than I should have, because I grew up with divorced parents and I didn't want to put my kids through that. In the end, though, he went so far off the rails that the kids were happy to get away from him. It wasn't until I finally got away that I realized just how deeply stressed/anxious/depressed I was those last few years; it was like the storm clouds parted and I suddenly felt so much lighter and happier. And it ended up being much better for the kids, too, none of us have any regrets. 

[math teacher]

No advice-just so sorry!!

[lauraw4321]

3 hours ago, Corraleno said:

.

Edited March 13, 2022 by lauraw4321

[regentrude]

I am sorry. You are modeling for your children what a marriage looks like, and they will absorb the template of their parents' relationship. You are modeling for them what they can expect from life. 
If, after careful consideration of all aspects, your assessment is that he is a "net negative" in your life, then I see no reason to prolong an unhappy situation just so he won't "fail". Or just to fulfill some kind of principle.

Edited March 13, 2022 by regentrude

[footballmom]

One thing that stands out to me in your post is how upsetting it is to feel like he doesn’t care.  I would encourage you to separate that out as much as you can - he may care, he may not.  Ultimately, if you are accepting a way of being treated that is degrading, disrespectful, hurtful, you need to value yourself over trying to get him to act in a way that feels caring.  Don’t chase his approval and work on you and your feelings and happiness.  Big hugs.

[ktgrok]

Have you read the Marriage Builders stuff about the Love Bank? It's about exactly this - when someone is only making withdrawals from your love bank, and not making deposits, (your net negative) you fall out of love. It also talks about how if all your fun/best times (like going out to eat) are with other people, and only the bad stuff (cleaning house, paying bills, etc) are with the spouse, you end up only making withdrawals and not making deposits. You fall in love with your friends and out of love with your spouse. It might be worth looking at IF he would be willing to work on that stuff, and try for a few months to make deposits and not withdrawals. 

Edited March 13, 2022 by ktgrok

[Kassia]

@ktgrok she asked not to quote - just wanted to let you know.

@lauraw4321I'm sorry about the situation.  Wish I had some words of wisdom to help.

[lauraw4321]

2 hours ago, ktgrok said:

Have you read the Marriage Builders stuff about the Love Bank? It's about exactly this - when someone is only making withdrawals from your love bank, and not making deposits, (your net negative) you fall out of love. It also talks about how if all your fun/best times (like going out to eat) are with other people, and only the bad stuff (cleaning house, paying bills, etc) are with the spouse, you end up only making withdrawals and not making deposits. You fall in love with your friends and out of love with your spouse. It might be worth looking at IF he would be willing to work on that stuff, and try for a few months to make deposits and not withdrawals. 

Edited March 13, 2022 by lauraw4321

[Moonhawk]

You said you don't think he actually likes you. My question is, do you actually like him? Not even asking about love.

You say he has a net-negative effect, but that's different from what I'm asking.

Your answer to that would probably inform a lot about how you may start approaching the future.

{{{Hugs}}}

Edited March 13, 2022 by Moonhawk

[Katy]

Hugs. I agree with the idea that you shouldn’t make decisions when your mood is low. I would actually try not to think about it now, and distract yourself with something funny or maybe get some exercise and sleep. 

I think the general rule is that kids are better off if their parents stayed together unless there is addiction or abuse going on. But emotional abuse, gaslighting, and manipulation are abuse. And I wouldn’t put up with them, though I do give DH some space to occasionally snap a little when he’s having a bad day or about to get a migraine. I can always tell because he gets sensitive to sounds before he gets snippy.

I think the main thing is not to act when you’re low. How do you feel when you’re having a great day?  

[ktgrok]

I don't think you should convince him. I was more saying, if it was ever good in the past, and you want to get back to that, that is how you might approach it. He chooses if he is willing to do that work or not. If not, that's sort of your answer. Or, if it was never good, then that's a whole other issue. 

But if it was, and you would like that back again, divorce is hard so trying something like that, IF he's willing to do so, may be worth it. 

[kbutton]

It sounds like when he did something nonsensical, and you explained it, then he had to insult you to make himself be okay with being scrutinized. Both the nonsensical stuff and the being insulting when scrutinized is really hard to break, but I wonder if fixing that would help you out.

I can't take the random stuff. Redefining something like "tidy up living room" every time it needs to happen is just not okay with me. Then insulting just to take the heat off himself--infuriating.

If you try counseling, you need someone competent with ADHD.

I do find To Love, Honor, and Vacuum to be helpful for finding words for things.

***Removed some personal details.

I am sorry things are like this, but I think you need to take notes for another day vs. ruminate on it now. 

Edited March 13, 2022 by kbutton

[kbutton]

5 minutes ago, Lovinglife123 said:

Let me just say I have severe ADHD and DH thought I didn’t like him.  It took a long time for him to really explain it to me in a way I could understand.  Once I understood I have made changes (it’s an ongoing learning process for me).

I would be really interested in hearing more about this if you're willing (can be a PM). I appreciate that you're willing to say so, and I am glad your able to work on it. 

[lauraw4321]

1 hour ago, Moonhawk said:

 

Your answer to that would probably inform a lot about how you may start approaching the future.

{{{Hugs}}

Edited March 13, 2022 by lauraw4321

[lauraw4321]

1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

I don't think you should convince him. I was more saying, if it was ever good in the past, and you want to get back to that, that is how you might approach it. He chooses if he is willing to do that work or not. If not, that's sort of your answer. Or, if it was never good, then that's a whole other issue. 

But if it was, and you would like that back again, divorce is hard so trying something like that, IF he's willing to do so, may be worth it. 

Edited March 13, 2022 by lauraw4321

[lauraw4321]

S

Edited March 13, 2022 by lauraw4321

[lauraw4321]

19 minutes ago, Lovinglife123 said:

Let me just say I have severe ADHD and DH thought I didn’t like him.  It took a long time for him to really explain it to me in a way I could understand.  Once I understood I have made changes (it’s an ongoing learning process for me).  I also was depressed and looking to get out with friends etc, not realizing he could be my very best friend.  I’m so so glad he never gave up on me, I would have been devastated.  He never knew how much I cared because I never showed it/ spent time with him.  I also like to rearrange furniture a lot and organize his stuff which drives him nuts.  

Can you expand on this? What did you need him to communicate to you? How did he communicate this to you?

[MercyA]

2 hours ago, Lovinglife123 said:

Let me just say I have severe ADHD and DH thought I didn’t like him.

Yes. I have diagnosed OCD and probably autism (DH says definitely yes) and probably ADD too. I am so, so, so thankful DH didn't give up on me, either.

I didn't show I cared about him by spending time with him. I was always caught up in doing something else (while never really getting much done at all). I was a horrible listener. I said some awful, hateful things to him when he dared to contradict my OCD thinking and behavior--it enraged me. And yes, I liked to mess with his stuff and move it around (I try not to do that anymore!). I'm sure he would have said I didn't like him, when in reality I never want to be without him. He is the best thing in my life.

All of that to say, laura, I would have a frank conversation with him about his feelings for you at some point, but not right now while you are so down. Things may be different than what you think. 

I am so very sorry you are going through this. Praying for you.

Please don't quote. 

 

Edited March 13, 2022 by MercyA

[lauraw4321]

I

Edited March 13, 2022 by lauraw4321

[ktgrok]

38 minutes ago, lauraw4321 said:

Here’s how that would look. Yes, let’s get out together. That sounds great. 
 

Then he’d wait for me to do all the planning / arranging. 
 

 

That would not count as making deposits in your love bank. At all. 

If he's not willing to DO things to make deposits, you can't make him. But sometimes seeing it in those kinds of black and white terms can help. 

[lauraw4321]

43 minutes ago, Lovinglife123 said:

Honestly what about scheduled date every week.  Doesn’t have to be food.  Coffee date, at this time, at 

Edited March 13, 2022 by lauraw4321

[fairfarmhand]

Op, you don't have to answer these on the board, but you can think about it.

Do you want to stay? If so, why?

What would it cost you to leave? Not only financially, but mentally and emotionally. Anything at all that he takes care of will then be on you. You may feel it's worth it, you may not. No judgement either way. 

Are you up to compartmentalizing your mental energy about your marriage (f you choose to stay)? For example, just accepting that he doesn't care for you the way that he ought to. Can you detach from him in a healthy way? 

You may answer these questions one way today. But I urge you to reconsider them on a day when you are not feeling so down. 

P.S. HIS DESIRE to not want to fail is not enough for you to stay in a place where you are being treated so badly. You were treated terribly disrespectfully today, and I hate that for you. It had to be painful.  It is wrong for someone to behave that way, whether or not they have ADHD or anything else going on.

[lauraw4321]

21 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

Op, you don't have to answer these on the board, but you can think about it.

Do you want to stay? If so, why?

What would it cost you to leave? Not only financially, but mentally and emotionally. Anything at all that he takes care of will then be on you. You may feel it's worth it, you may not. No judgement either way. 

Are you up to compartmentalizing your mental energy about your marriage (f you choose to stay)? For example, just accepting that he doesn't care for you the way that he ought to. Can you detach from him in a healthy way? 

I can take out the trash, yes. 

Edited March 13, 2022 by lauraw4321

[Corraleno]

2 hours ago, lauraw4321 said:

How is your custody arranged? 

[please don't quote]

When we got divorced we had been planning to move to another state, which the kids (then 12 & 16) were very excited about. I insisted that the move was going to happen, so the kids would not be penalized, and it was up to him to decide when (and if) he moved as well. He agreed to that and had vague plans that he would stay behind to get the house sold and then follow us in 6-8 months. I knew without a doubt that that would never happen, because in the 20 years we were married we'd moved 5 times, 3 of which were international moves, and I had done 100% of the work every single time. Nothing ever happened unless I made it happen.

So the arrangement was that we had joint legal custody but I had primary physical custody. They would visit him for one week at Christmas, one week during Spring break, and one month in the summer, but he was also free to come visit them any time he wished. As expected, he still hasn't sold the house (it's been 7.5 years), never came to see them, and rarely even asked to have them fly down to visit him. I made them visit anyway, for at least one week at least twice a year, which they weren't happy about, but I felt it was my duty to maintain some kind of relationship. Now both kids are adults and their relationship with him consists of occasional texts for birthdays and Christmas.

In retrospect I can see that I had been sacrificing so much of my emotional health and well-being to keep my "family" together when in reality the "family" was just me and the kids all along. DH always just did whatever he wanted, whenever he wanted, regardless of what was going on with the rest of us. Every single "family" thing was 100% me. Every Christmas present was bought and wrapped by me, including all the ones for his family, even though the tag said they were from both of us. I was the one meeting with teachers, I was the one who decided to homeschool, and I did 100% of the work to make it happen. I was the one at every sports practice and music and dance recital. I was the one who looked after his developmentally disabled relative for more than two decades until he passed away (I made sure to get custody of him as well as the kids). I know that, for most women, life post-divorce often ends up being a lot more work than when they were married, but for me it has been so much less work, because I'm no longer doing all the work for two adults. 

 

Edited March 13, 2022 by Corraleno

[Faith-manor]

I think Fairfarmhand is asking some really good questions to ask yourself in addition to how you see marriage being role modeled to your children.

What is the relationship of the children with him? Does he also belittle them and make them feel unloved, unliked, is he indifferent? Would he parent better if he did not expend emotional energy towards you or would he be worse?

Again, you can just explore these questions personally. You don't need to answer here.

Truly, no judgment here. Life is hard enough without sharing the journey with someone who is emotionally and mentally cruel.

[aggie96]

@lauraw4321 I can't offer any advice except to say, "Me too." Just "me too".

[Eos]

Two years is a long time to have been considering and not seeing change.  And these past two years were a breaking point for many people - when times are tough, you learn people's true capacities.  Very gently, is this how you want your daughters to think they should be treated by their future partners?  (I feel so unkind asking that since we are not real life friends, but you did ask for advice, and that's what jumps out at me.  No unkindness meant at all.)

[Melissa Louise]

You're allowed to separate/get divorced. You don't have to keep doing the work if, on balance, your life would be better/easier without him. It  sounds extremely tiring.

A trial separation could give you some space/relief, and allow HIM the opportunity to 'do the work'. 

 

 

 

[JustEm]

8 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

You're allowed to separate/get divorced. You don't have to keep doing the work if, on balance, your life would be better/easier without him. It  sounds extremely tiring.

A trial separation could give you some space/relief, and allow HIM the opportunity to 'do the work'. 

 

 

 

This. I made it clear to dh that I was taking time during the separation to work on myself and fix the strain on my relationship with the kids that I created as a result of not being able to cope with the marriage issues. I also informed him that if he wanted to fix things he would have to 'do the work' to do so because I couldn't anymore. 

[aggie96]

If anyone doesn't mind sharing, what does a trial separation look like? Who leaves the home? Who pays for what? How are assets protected from vengeance? This sounds good in theory but I cannot wrap my head around what it looks like in practice. I think it would just open up a way for me to get screwed.

 

ETA: Does this get done through a lawyer?

 

Edited March 13, 2022 by aggie96

[ktgrok]

47 minutes ago, Eos said:

Two years is a long time to have been considering and not seeing change.  And these past two years were a breaking point for many people - when times are tough, you learn people's true capacities.  Very gently, is this how you want your daughters to think they should be treated by their future partners?  (I feel so unkind asking that since we are not real life friends, but you did ask for advice, and that's what jumps out at me.  No unkindness meant at all.)

I will never forget my therapist saying, gently but firmly, "Katie, you've been complaining about these exact same issues for two years. I think it is time to realize that if nothing has changed in this long, it isn't going to change..so if that is the case, what do you want to do?" 

And my biggest motivation was, as you say, Eos, that I did not want my child to think this was what was normal in a marriage or relationship. 

[prairiewindmomma]

1 hour ago, aggie96 said:

If anyone doesn't mind sharing, what does a trial separation look like? Who leaves the home? Who pays for what? How are assets protected from vengeance? This sounds good in theory but I cannot wrap my head around what it looks like in practice. I think it would just open up a way for me to get screwed.

 

ETA: Does this get done through a lawyer?

 

It only works if parties are amenable, and yes, temporary arrangements on custody and finances can be arranged. They are more likely to become final since that’s how kids were arranged prior to formal divorce.

Honestly, because each state is different, this is a question best for attorneys. If you haven’t done a consult, I 1000% recommend it. Knowing the typical lay of the land for your area and situation is helpful in decision making.

[JustEm]

2 hours ago, aggie96 said:

If anyone doesn't mind sharing, what does a trial separation look like? Who leaves the home? Who pays for what? How are assets protected from vengeance? This sounds good in theory but I cannot wrap my head around what it looks like in practice. I think it would just open up a way for me to get screwed.

 

ETA: Does this get done through a lawyer?

 

I don't know how legal separations work. I knew that in my marriage simply doing nothing official legally was a safe option and I would not be screwed. We both stayed in the same house during our separation, although dh offered to move out.

But I wouldn't advise going that route to anyone. Consult a lawyer 

[Scarlett]

@Corraleno That was very much how my marriage was too.  He took care of weedeating the acre yard we had but I mowed it.  I am pretty sure in the last few years I even took out the trash.  I was a SAHM and he did not want me to be, so he was angry all of the time it seemed.  To mitigate his anger I tried to do everything.  He was very very selfish.  He took vacations without us, he went out most weekends with his friends, to clubs or to the lake for the day or weekend.  Once in a while he would throw us a bone and do something with us as a family.  
 

No amount of talking or begging could get through to him about how he was hurting us. Before  ds was born we tried separation, counseling….I did a lot of reading and trying everything.   Remember one thing I was trying was to put little notes in his lunch.  Nice sweet one line things.  I made his lunch ever day.  After about the third day of no comment, he said, ‘what is this sh@t?’.  I was crushed.  After that I pretty much gave up on our relationship. I focused on our son, my faith, my family.  I still did everything for ds, the house etc, still engaged in tEa….tried my best to be kind and to teach my son to be respect.  But I was done trying to fix ‘us’ by myself.  
 

I was reasonably happy in that mode.  And I stopped complaining about all of his selfish pursuits.  One would think that would make him happy, but it just fueled  his entitlement to the point he began an affair with a co worker 20 years his junior.  That was my line in the sand….a line he apparently did not really believe I had.  He was completely shocked that I divorced him. 
 

There are things about divorce that are very very difficult.  I still really resent some parts of it but I really had no choice.  And that is what it all boils down to….everyone has to be honest with themselves if they have done all they can to save a marriage—

 

@lauraw4321  (((((Hugs)))))

 

[lauraw4321]

I 

 

Edited March 13, 2022 by lauraw4321

[Soror]

@lauraw4321best wishes, no matter what happens in the end. Maybe your dh needed a wake-up call and your marriage can be saved or maybe it can't. Either way you will know. Sounds like you have a clarity and are in a good place moving forward.

[Pam in CT]

Sounds like you have a reasonable plan.

That he is willing to go to counseling is significant. If you haven't gone together before, know that a very common first phase is where at least one, often both, partners try to persuade the therapist that 100% of the "fault" is heaped all on one side. A competent counselor will not indulge in that game, but it's super common for clients to try it in the beginning. 

 

[Scarlett]

3 hours ago, lauraw4321 said:

I 

 

I missed your original post and your reply. Feel free to pm me.