Why I'm glad I didn't require first-time obedience

[Xahm]

When I was a new mom, the other moms at my church and in my social circle with older kids were big proponents of requiring first-time obedience of little ones. I, on the other hand, swelled with pride the day my oldest, as a little toddler asked to give me a prized possession she wasn't supposed to have, delayed nearly a full minute. She was clearly thinking hard, torn between her desire to do as I said and her very strong desire to keep the thing she had. In the end, she handed it to me and I praised her up and down for making such a good choice. My mom friends did not see this the same way and foresaw much gloom and doom over our family's discipline situation. 

Since then, I've drifted away from that group, joining a different church and meeting new people. My oldest is still just nine, with three little siblings. When we go out, people are usually impressed by my children's behavior, but at home, there's chaos a lot of the time. I have to explain rules and make sure they are understood if I want them to be followed. It can be a hassle. Sometimes I wonder if requiring blind obedience would have been the better path.

Recently, my 8 year old had a last minute invitation to go to a special Christmas concert with my in-laws. It was a cool opportunity, and I allowed it without very much consideration (which I now regret, obviously). It turns out almost no one there masked, including my in-laws. Not surprisingly, it lead to a chain of people being infected with Covid, who then circled around and brought it to us. It also turns out that, while there, my mother in law repeatedly told my son to take off his mask and he declined her offer politely, repeatedly. He understood our rule, had internalized it, and it was his rule now. She was perplexed by why he would wear a mask when no one was making him, and he was troubled that she would request he do otherwise. While the irresponsible actions of others mean that we did get infected and will miss a lot of Christmas fun, I can be proud that our child has a strong sense of right and wrong and isn't easily moved from that path. 

If I told this story to my old mom friends, who at the time had oldest kids who seemed so very big but were actually mostly younger than mine are now, I wonder whether they'd be proud of my son for doing what he knew to be right or aghast that he disobeyed his grandma. I'm still sure we're making lots of mistakes, but I think we're beginning to see good fruit come of asking for obedience to ideas rather than people.

[CTVKath]

I hear you and I get it. And I hope my children will do the same and for similar reasons. 

[Carrie12345]

25 minutes ago, Xahm said:

s. When we go out, people are usually impressed by my children's behavior, but at home, there's chaos a lot of the time. I have to explain rules and make sure they are understood if I want them to be followed. It can be a hassle. Sometimes I wonder if requiring blind obedience would have been the better path.

Just singling this part out because same!  
I have 3 legal adults, plus 14 and 11yos. Our life at home has ALWAYS been chaos, but my kids have always (okay, 99% of the time) been lavished with praise out and about.

 I’m convinced it’s the room to learn, grow, and understand through conversations and trial and error at home that make them good citizens. 
 

(There was one year when getting my youngest out of the community pool was a real circus.)

[maize]

I think some people forget that our goal is to raise our children to be healthy, functional adults. Knee-jerk obedience to other people, even authority figures, does not fit with that goal. It is convenient as a parent if kids just do as they are told; kids are pretty chaotic by nature, and treating them as puppets on strings certainy has its conveniences (assuming at least that the children in question have moderately compliant natures). Interacting with children as feeling, thinking, individual people is both harder and, ultimately, so much more rewarding.

Myself, I was the non-compliant sort of child. My parents did expect obedience, it was the only sort of child-rearing they knew. I got spanked a fair bit when young. Then the spanking stopped; my mom tells me she realized that what they were doing was not effective, and that it was not right to escalate to whatever point might be needed to break me--that breaking a child's will was in fact not something desirable or good.

Myself, I came to parenting remembering how completely ineffective control-oriented parenting tactics had been with me. Obedience as obedience just didn't seem like a worthwhile goal.

To be honest, my kids could benefit from more structure than I provide; I'm not good at structure. But my kids are growing up to be kind and thoughtful people. My oldest is 18 and is consistently both caring and willing to stand up for her perception of right. A child subjected to intensive obedience training could absolutely grow up that way, but not because of the obedience training.

She certainly hasn't suffered from the lack.

 

Edited December 24, 2021 by maize

[Xahm]

9 minutes ago, maize said:

I think some people forget that our goal is to raise our children to be healthy, functional adults. Knee-jerk obedience to other people, even authority figures, does not fit with that goal. It is convenient as a parent if kids just do as they are told; kids are pretty chaotic by nature, and treating them as puppets on strings certainy has its conveniences (assuming at least that the children in question have moderately compliant natures). Interacting with children as feeling, thinking, individual people is both harder and, ultimately, so much more rewarding.

Myself, I was the non-compliant sort of child. My parents did expect obedience, it was the only sort of child-rearing they knew. I got spanked a fair bit when young. Then the spanking stopped; my mom tells me she realized that what they were doing was not effective, and that it was not right to escalate to whatever point might be needed to break me--that breaking a child's will was in fact not something desirable or good.

Myself, I came to parenting remembering how completely ineffective control-oriented parenting tactics had been with me. Obedience as obedience just didn't seem like a worthwhile goal.

To be honest, my kids could benefit from more structure than I provide; I'm not good at structure. But my kids are growing up to be kind and thoughtful people. My oldest is 18 and is consistently both caring and willing to stand up for her perception of right. A child subjected to intensive obedience training could absolutely grow up that way, but not because of the obedience training.

She certainly hasn't suffered from the lack.

 

Yes, our focus as parents is raising competent, healthy, independent adults!

I was an apparently compliant child, though not all my siblings were. I learned early to wait until no one was watching, then go with my own plan. If my plan was actually good, everything would work out just fine. Thankfully, I was pretty good at coming up with good plans, and never had real problems from this, but I also missed out on lots of guidance that would have been helpful. My kids come to me saying, "You said to do this, but we did this other thing instead." It sometimes baffles me that they so openly admit to this given my background, but we end up discussing the relative merits of each method, and I can help them troubleshoot what went wrong with their plans, or I admit their way was great. I'm hoping this means they will still come to me in their teenage years, but I know there's all sorts of things at play then.

[TexasProud]

I did require first time obedience under 5.  Very glad I did.  However, let go of the reins slowly after that. Almost no rules by the time they were seniors. Lots of dialogue.  Worked well for us.  I was one of the strictest parents when they were toddlers and most permissive in high school. 

[DawnM]

1 hour ago, Xahm said:

 

If I told this story to my old mom friends, who at the time had oldest kids who seemed so very big but were actually mostly younger than mine are now, I wonder whether they'd be proud of my son for doing what he knew to be right or aghast that he disobeyed his grandma. I'm still sure we're making lots of mistakes, but I think we're beginning to see good fruit come of asking for obedience to ideas rather than people.

 

My guess is that those types are also anti-maskers, so I am doubting they would be proud of him.  I know those types.

But I am proud of him!

[Xahm]

13 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

I did require first time obedience under 5.  Very glad I did.  However, let go of the reins slowly after that. Almost no rules by the time they were seniors. Lots of dialogue.  Worked well for us.  I was one of the strictest parents when they were toddlers and most permissive in high school. 

My little kids were unusually rational as little ones, so I know that my method wouldn't work for all children, especially not without adaptation. We have some rules that were explained before hand, like, "in parking lots and other dangerous places, whatever mama says you have to do right away." They also have to accept that sometimes they had to first do what I said, then I'd explain later. We use that mostly out in public when either I am busy with other things or don't want to deal with other adults giving their input. They trust that I would explain later, so they go along. 

I suspect your version of first time obedience was somewhat gentler than that of some of the moms I knew. One boasted that her son took a submissive stance whenever her husband entered the room when the kid was about two. I still don't want to know what that means.

[maize]

2 minutes ago, Xahm said:

My little kids were unusually rational as little ones, so I know that my method wouldn't work for all children, especially not without adaptation. We have some rules that were explained before hand, like, "in parking lots and other dangerous places, whatever mama says you have to do right away." They also have to accept that sometimes they had to first do what I said, then I'd explain later. We use that mostly out in public when either I am busy with other things or don't want to deal with other adults giving their input. They trust that I would explain later, so they go along. 

I suspect your version of first time obedience was somewhat gentler than that of some of the moms I knew. One boasted that her son took a submissive stance whenever her husband entered the room when the kid was about two. I still don't want to know what that means.

This is the scary part of black-and-white approaches to discipline. If you have kids who comply without threat of extreme measures, expecting obedience of small children isn't a huge deal.

But when this is pushed as The Right Way to Parent, some parents feel they need to force obedience no matter how non-compliant the child is. And for some children that means escalating to measures that are absolutely inhumane.
 

One of my sisters had a college roommate whose legs were covered in scars from "discipline" measures administered by her dad. She defended her dad's approach and was angry at the sister who eventually reported him to CPS.

[Jaybee]

Like @TexasProud, I required quick obedience when my children were toddlers/preschoolers, for their own safety. That did not mean that we were not also teaching thinking and reasoning alongside (oldest was a first-rate arguer, and still is, lol) and that the reasoning side of things soon became the dominant approach to things as their cognitive abilities grew. 

16 minutes ago, Xahm said:

I suspect your version of first time obedience was somewhat gentler than that of some of the moms I knew. One boasted that her son took a submissive stance whenever her husband entered the room when the kid was about two. I still don't want to know what that means.

Right. That sounds horrible--why would you be proud of that?  In our home, this was NOTHING like blanket training or fear-based parenting. It did help our home to run more smoothly, but it was not stifling of personalities, creativity, or thinking skills. All that to say, good for your ds! You have reason to be proud!

[catz]

Parenting my own kids would have been a heck of a lot harder and we would definitely not have the relationships we have today had I not allowed questions and thoughtful discussion.  I wanted to raise critical thinkers that can see grey in situations and understand the world isn't black and white and one size fits all.   Fits into the "Well Trained Mind" educational philosophy!

Good for your son!  You should be proud!  I am sorry you are sick though, hope you are all well quickly.  ❤️  

[City Mouse]

I think you are doing a great job! I am a firm believer that the expectation of immediate, no questioning, obedience is a conduit for abuse of the child. Physical discipline can turn to abuse when parents escalate their response to non-compliant children. Separate from that, those children are taught that they must do exactly what any elder requires of them, which can lead to children being taken advantage of and abused when they don’t feel they have the ability to say no. (For those who might disagree with me, please note that I am saying “can” not “will”)

[ScoutTN]

I had some of those first time obedience (Ezzo-influenced, Growing Kids God’s Way. Ugh!) people in my life when my kids were little. Their ideas always troubled my mom-instinct and struck me as formulaic, not Biblical.

I have one very compliant and one stubborn, strong-willed, fiercely independent one. The first didn’t need any strict discipline and it wouldn’t have worked on the second. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

You can be rigid in different ways. I wanted and asked for first time obedience in emergency situations. Other times we discussed the whys at great length and they had lots of choices. 
 

It’s tiring and unproductive to always have to argue your point especially if time is of the essence . It’s also bad to not develop thinking skills. 

[Carol in Cal.]

I think that this is especially important for girls, who are often pressured in ways that this can play into.

[Carol in Cal.]

8 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

You can be rigid in different ways. I wanted and asked for first time obedience in emergency situations. Other times we discussed the whys at great length and they had lots of choices. 
 

It’s tiring and unproductive to always have to argue your point especially if time is of the essence . It’s also bad to not develop thinking skills. 

I did this, too.  

I conveyed very early that ‘this is a safety issue’ was not ever negotiable.

[Guest]

That is an awesome story! Kudos to your kiddo! 
 

As I grew up in a “cheerful obedience” household, I saw and experienced first hand what happens when people (maybe girls especially) are trained to please everyone else before meeting their own needs. It has taken me decades to learn that what I want *matters*. 

[Slache]

In our home dialog takes precedence over obedience. If we need to talk about it then we will, but if you do not have a reasonable objection you do as you are told. My oldest just turned 11 and I can't really say there's much or any focus on obedience anymore. I think I've very much gone the same route as @TexasProud. 

7 minutes ago, Quill said:

As I grew up in a “cheerful obedience” household, I saw and experienced first hand what happens when people (maybe girls especially) are trained to please everyone else before meeting their own needs. It has taken me decades to learn that what I want *matters*. 

This is gross. I actually don't know how to parent bad feelings because I wasn't allowed to have them. I tell them they aren't allowed to be nasty to eachother just because they're sad or disappointed. I do give a lot of grace to those who want to be alone, not talk, or not do what they're supposed to be doing in that moment (school/chores) due to a bad mood and need for recovery time. Fortunately, my kids know that their needs come before anyone else's wants and are learning to budget needs, wants, time and rest quite well, but I honestly have no idea what I'm doing.

[Pam in CT]

6 hours ago, Xahm said:

... I wonder whether they'd be proud of my son for doing what he knew to be right or aghast that he disobeyed his grandma...

That is a working metaphor for much of adulthood.

 

4 hours ago, maize said:

This is the scary part of black-and-white approaches to discipline. If you have kids who comply without threat of extreme measures, expecting obedience of small children isn't a huge deal.

But when this is pushed as The Right Way to Parent, some parents feel they need to force obedience no matter how non-compliant the child is. And for some children that means escalating to measures that are absolutely inhumane.

One of my sisters had a college roommate whose legs were covered in scars from "discipline" measures administered by her dad. She defended her dad's approach and was angry at the sister who eventually reported him to CPS.

Yeah. My first kid happened to be so naturally compliant as a baby/toddler/preschooler that it was very easy to convince myself that my parenting approach was AWESOME and anybody who experienced trials or hiccups or frustrations of any kind just wasn't doing it right.  I mean, I didn't even *demand* first time obedience but I still more or less got it, not always "cheerful" but nearly always "easily re-directed."

And then the second came along four years later. And expecting cheerful first time obedience out of that one could only ever have gone one of two ways: left the kid with physical scars and an irrevocably broken spirit; or driving one or the other of us permanently out of the household.

 

3 hours ago, ScoutTN said:

..I have one very compliant and one stubborn, strong-willed, fiercely independent one. The first didn’t need any strict discipline and it wouldn’t have worked on the second. 

Exactly this.

[KungFuPanda]

Requiring blind obedience is only a good idea if your plan is to raise cult members or perfect victims. It’s gross. 

[kbutton]

What a great kid! And good parenting! 

I hope you all recover well. 

[Clarita]

Thank you for this post. My kids are not first time obedience kids either. Today was especially hard with my eldest. 

Thanks for reminding me about all the times my kids internalized rules and no matter what anyone else is presuring them to do they stick to their guns and what they think is right. 

[MercyA]

Your son did great!! You are right to be proud. 🙂

Hope you all feel better soon.

[MooCow]

You did good, yay for your son! 

[BakersDozen]

On 12/24/2021 at 10:31 AM, Jean in Newcastle said:

You can be rigid in different ways. I wanted and asked for first time obedience in emergency situations. Other times we discussed the whys at great length and they had lots of choices. 

This is the approach we take. For example, if I say, "Get your shoes on and get in the van," no one is to question why. They can ask why once they are in the van/out of the house, but obedience first. This stemmed from an emergency situation way back in 2000 when I realized the importance of immediate, unquestioning obedience in some situations. Over the years I've had to employ this a number of times and each time it meant no wasted seconds or further harm to one of my dc. Just this last year a massive gas leak prompted me to yell, "GET OUT OF THE HOUSE NOW." Instant obedience, thank goodness. Another time it was, "Freeze!" Instant obedience meant a child's safety.

There is value in first time obedience as well as concern. Used wisely, it can be of great benefit. Used unwisely, it can backfire. (imo, of course)