New Covid medicine reduces hospitalizations and death by almost half among unvaccinated!

[Fritz]

20 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

Again, there has not been a double blind randomized peer review study that has shown efficacy of ivermectin for covid to this point.  Several small studies have shown it not to have significant affect.  Metadata analysis does not equate to double blind randomized peer review study.  If/when such studies exist, then it will get widely used. 

To say India did great with covid is ridiculous.   My husband's India office had 5 people die from a 400 person office and 4 of them were under age 40.  Plenty of other stories of lost parents and how people transported family members many hours to try and find a hospital bed from that small sample.   And this was from a wealthy cohort in India.  

This new drug was so efficacious during the double blind study, it became unethical to continue to have a control group.

Agree we'd have everyone vaccinated who could be and use this for breakthrough cases.  I hope they are studying that.   We need layers of protection.  

So had you had a family member test positive for covid in 2020 you would not have preferred they be given the option of taking an old drug in correctly prescribed dosages rather than having them sent home with no treatment plan other than if you get to the point where you can breathe get to the ED? Did you watch Dr. Campbell's youtube? 

[KSera]

1 minute ago, Fritz said:

Covid-19 did not start when the vaccine came out. Many people died before the vaccines were out. Had many of the dead been given ivermectin in the correct dosage along with the other vitamins included in the home kits those in India were given perhaps there would have been fewer deaths. Telling doctors they are not allowed to prescribe medications (old medications with known effects, I might add) but rather must send patients home to wait and see if they get to the point of not being able to breathe is not a plan to provide the best care for your citizens. I am sure the families of the now dead, if asked, would have preferred their family member to at least been offered these kits or at least a prescription for Ivermectin at the outset of diagnosis. 

But why ivermectin, rather than any of 100 other drugs that similarly have not shown clear benefit yet? Doctors had some medication‘s that they were using that were helping, but they can’t just give any old thing, just in case it might help. There are real liabilities if they do that and when the studies come out, it’s shown that the medication they gave out without approval or indication actually harmed people more than it helped them. Hopefully the Oxford study on ivermectin that’s currently being done will give some more definitive answers. In the meantime, we’re no longer talking about a pre-vaccine world, so that’s really not relevant. (Pre-vaccine, there are a lot of things that people currently touting ivermectin could’ve been doing to reduce the chances of getting sick, but weren’t, so if we want to start somewhere talking about what people should’ve been doing pre-vaccine…)

And once again, I’m left scratching my head that so many of the same people who still think Covid vaccines haven’t been shown to be safe and effective, after billions of doses given and untold thousands of lives saved, take a small number of low quality studies on ivermectin as solid proof that ivermectin holds the cure 🤷‍♀️.

[Fritz]

8 minutes ago, KSera said:

But why ivermectin, rather than any of 100 other drugs that similarly have not shown clear benefit yet? Doctors had some medication‘s that they were using that were helping, but they can’t just give any old thing, just in case it might help. There are real liabilities if they do that and when the studies come out, it’s shown that the medication they gave out without approval or indication actually harmed people more than it helped them. Hopefully the Oxford study on ivermectin that’s currently being done will give some more definitive answers. In the meantime, we’re no longer talking about a pre-vaccine world, so that’s really not relevant. (Pre-vaccine, there are a lot of things that people currently touting ivermectin could’ve been doing to reduce the chances of getting sick, but weren’t, so if we want to start somewhere talking about what people should’ve been doing pre-vaccine…)

And once again, I’m left scratching my head that so many of the same people who still think Covid vaccines haven’t been shown to be safe and effective, after billions of doses given and untold thousands of lives saved, take a small number of low quality studies on ivermectin as solid proof that ivermectin holds the cure 🤷‍♀️.

I don't think anyone is saying that Ivermectin "holds the cure". You are assuming that anyone who does not take the vaccine is an ignorant fool. There are many people who cannot take the vaccine for medical reasons. Many have religious reasons for not taking the vaccine. Having options for treatment for those people in my mind is a good idea. Many vaccinated people also contract Covid-19. I think we are going to see those numbers increasing. Again, I was mostly talking about those that were offered no treatment pre-vaccine who could have potentially been saved if treatment had started at the time of diagnosis, rather than all the "horse wormer" hysteria from the know-it-all crowd. This new Merck drug does look promising. I am happy to see the drug companies working on treatments as well as vaccines.

[KSera]

5 minutes ago, Fritz said:

I don't think anyone is saying that Ivermectin "holds the cure".

That's good to hear that you don't think that, but unfortunately I have seen many, many people saying it is a cure. That's my whole issue with it--groups online promote it as a miracle cure and people listening to them think that they don't have to worry about Covid, because if they get it, they can just take ivermectin and it will cure them. Except it doesn't, and by the time they realize that, it's too late.

 

7 minutes ago, Fritz said:

You are assuming that anyone who does not take the vaccine is an ignorant fool. There are many people who cannot take the vaccine for medical reasons. Many have religious reasons for not taking the vaccine.

No, I don't assume anyone not taking the vaccine is an ignorant fool (where did I say anything like that?). Clearly some people have medical contraindications (though fortunately that is actually a very small group of people, and those people really benefit from the protection of everyone they encounter being vaccinated). Religious reasons are a harder sell, even though people might bill their political beliefs as being "religious beliefs".

 

11 minutes ago, Fritz said:

Having options for treatment for those people in my mind is a good idea.

Absolutely. I celebrate every treatment that shows effectiveness for treating Covid. This new one from Merck is no different. If ivermectin is ever shown to be effective, I will celebrate that as well. I hope it is, but so far, it doesn't seem to be a great option any more than hydroxychloriquine was.

This whole side conversation started based on a response equating relying on the vaccine for protection with relying on medication after the fact for protection, and so far, those two routes clearly have very different outcomes and it's dangerous to suggest to people that they can just wait until they get sick and then they can take medication and it will be fine.

[Tanaqui]

Fritz, I don't know it all. I do know that there is no solid evidence - and no, I do not accept some rando on youtube as "evidence" - that ivermectin is an effective treatment.

[catz]

54 minutes ago, Fritz said:

So had you had a family member test positive for covid in 2020 you would not have preferred they be given the option of taking an old drug in correctly prescribed dosages rather than having them sent home with no treatment plan other than if you get to the point where you can breathe get to the ED? Did you watch Dr. Campbell's youtube? 

If it were a proven drug that shown efficacy, sure.  But ivermectin hasn't.  I'd personally want MAB and steroid inhalers.  

Yes, I've watched Campbell's video.  He is just going through metadata.  Some that has been pulled for fraud.  He is not a specialist in this and cannot speak to how the data was collected.  You are aware one of the large early studies was withdrawn?  If this drug is so effective, it would not be hard to show efficacy in a large double blind study.  If you give a drug to the healthiest populations where most people survive, it isn't hard to make it look like it is effective in a meta data analysis.  This is why double blind, randomized is the gold standard for drug approval and recommendations.      

Studies are still running and I will be happy to reverse my view on it if a couple good studies show efficacy.  

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02081-w

Edited October 2, 2021 by FuzzyCatz

[Corraleno]

Anyone who claims a "religious exemption" for covid vaccines on the grounds that they were tested on (not manufactured with) fetal cell lines, must also refuse all monoclonal antibody treatments for the same reason. They also cannot take acetaminophen, albuterol, aspirin, ibuprofen, Pepto Bismol, Tums, Lipitor, Senokot, Motrin, Maalox, Ex-Lax, Benadryl, Sudafed, Preparation H, Claritin, Prilosec, or Zoloft, and must avoid the MMR, chickenpox, and shingles vaccine. They should also not purchase any products from Nestle or any of Nestle's subsidiaries, since they contract with a company called Senomyx that develops flavor enhancers that are tested using the same HEK293 cell line used to test the Pfizer & Moderna vaccines. Pepsi and Campbell's have previously developed products with Senomyx using HEK293, although they currently use a different cell line, but it's probably best to avoid all Pepsi and Campbell products as well, to be sure to not consume anything that might have been tested on fetal cells in the past.

Number of people in the US who claim a religious exemption from covid vaccination and actually avoid all of the items listed above: 0

[KSera]

I just saw and read a Vox piece that was very relevant to this current part of the discussion. Vox wouldn't be my usual source, but because the commentary is so relevant, I'll link it here:

Why people who don’t trust vaccines are embracing unproven drugs  Inside the upside-down world where Covid-19 vaccines are dangerous and ivermectin is saving lives.

The key idea is that people are very good at reshaping their narratives to avoid having to admit they were wrong. In this case, it's people who belittled the risk of covid in the beginning, needing to somehow adapt their narrative to the fact that Covid19 has killed millions at this point, including over 700,000 people in the US alone. So it shifts to the cure being readily available and "they" just don't want you to know because they want you to take their [insert conspiracy theory here] vaccines.

That piece led me to another super interesting piece from the Atlantic on the sociology behind some of this:

The Anti-vaccine Con Job Is Becoming Untenable  Why targets of deliberate deception often hesitate to admit they’ve been deceived

Quote

In Missouri and other red states, vaccine refusal on partisan grounds has become a defining marker of community affiliation. Acceptance within some circles is contingent on refusal to cooperate with the Biden administration’s public-health campaign. Getting vaccinated is a betrayal of that group norm, and those who get the shot can legitimately fear losing their job or incurring the wrath of their families and other reference groups.

Sociology solves mysteries like these by zeroing in on problematic relationships, not the decisions that individuals make in isolation. Many of the people refusing safe, effective vaccination amid a deadly pandemic are enmeshed in a very distinctive type of relationship that sociologists have been studying for more than 70 years: the con job. Con artists gain social or financial advantage by convincing their marks to believe highly dubious claims—and to block out all information to the contrary.

Quote

To outsiders, the social dynamics of the con appear peculiar and irrational. Those caught up in it can seem self-destructive and, frankly, clueless. But to sociologists, including me, who study fraud, such behaviors obey a predictable logic.

The seminal text in the field—Erving Goffman’s 1952 essay “On Cooling the Mark Out”—observes that all targets of con artists eventually come to understand that they have been defrauded, yet they almost never complain or report the crime to authorities. Why? Because, Goffman argues, admitting that one has been conned is so deeply shameful that marks experience it as a kind of social death. The victim, he writes,

has defined himself as a shrewd man and must face the fact that he is only another easy mark. He has defined himself as possessing a certain set of qualities and then proven to himself that he is miserably lacking in them. This is a process of self-destruction of the self.

 

Fascinating stuff, but tragic that it's costing people so much. As one line of the above Vox article says,

Quote

“If we’ve learned anything in the past five years,” Bernstein said, “it’s that tribal identity trumps everything else, including ... self-interest.”

 

[ktgrok]

2 hours ago, Fritz said:

Covid-19 did not start when the vaccine came out. Many people died before the vaccines were out. Had many of the dead been given ivermectin in the correct dosage along with the other vitamins included in the home kits those in India were given perhaps there would have been fewer deaths. 

or maybe if we gave them all green tootsie rolls they'd have lived! Cause there is about the same amount of evidence for tootsie rolls as ivermectin, particularly back before vaccines were around. 

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

or maybe if we gave them all green tootsie rolls they'd have lived! Cause there is about the same amount of evidence for tootsie rolls as ivermectin, particularly back before vaccines were around. 

This is why RCTs are so important — you could literally give a green tootsie roll to everyone who tests positive and boast a 99% survival rate. Which of course is totally meaningless since the same % of people who don't eat green tootsie rolls also survive. Unfortunately most antivaxxers don't seem to have any grasp of the difference between correlation and causation, so if they know people who took ivermectin and 9 out of 10 got better, that proves it's at least 90% effective! And they often fail to mention other treatments that the same person took that have proven efficacy — like all the memes and posts on social media right now claiming that ivermectin cured Joe Rogan, which conveniently leave out the fact that he also got monoclonal antibodies and steroids.

[Meriwether]

I am not surprised that the othering had already started by the second post on this good news thread.

[MEmama]

1 hour ago, Meriwether said:

I am not surprised that the othering had already started by the second post on this good news thread.

Why? Because people are being held accountable *to their own reasoning*? That’s, um, not the definition of “othering”. Lol

[Faith-manor]

5 minutes ago, MEmama said:

Why? Because people are being held accountable *to their own reasoning*? That’s, um, not the definition of “othering”. Lol

Exactly! It is not "discrimination" to call out logical fallacies. And if one does not want to be "othered", stop proclaiming myths, falsehoods, proven untrue remedies, and dangerous advice during a pandemic. No one has to have patience with that. People are disabled and die from this crap.

[klmama]

I have friends who won't get this vaccine.  They actually aren't anti-vaccine -- their kids are more vaccinated than mine are, if you are talking about regular vaccines.  They are concerned about this one, either because of the lack of long-term studies or because they or their family members have some health issue that they fear may get worse with vaccination.  As I know several people who have had significant reactions or have experienced worsening health issues, I can't fault anyone who avoids the vaccine out of fear of that happening -- I hesitated for a long time, too, for the same reasons. 

Since mainstream medicine has not offered much in the way of treatments until this new drug, of course people have been looking at alternative treatments, with or without proof of efficacy.  That's normal human behavior.  So is feeling frustrated or angry with others who see things completely differently than you do; however, if you want people to change their minds, you have to influence them, and that generally requires kindness and compassion.  Hostility drives people away.  

[WildflowerMom]

2 minutes ago, klmama said:

I have friends who won't get this vaccine.  They actually aren't anti-vaccine -- their kids are more vaccinated than mine are, if you are talking about regular vaccines.  They are concerned about this one, either because of the lack of long-term studies or because they or their family members have some health issue that they fear may get worse with vaccination.  As I know several people who have had significant reactions or have experienced worsening health issues, I can't fault anyone who avoids the vaccine out of fear of that happening -- I hesitated for a long time, too, for the same reasons. 

Since mainstream medicine has not offered much in the way of treatments until this new drug, of course people have been looking at alternative treatments, with or without proof of efficacy.  That's normal human behavior.  So is feeling frustrated or angry with others who see things completely differently than you do; however, if you want people to change their minds, you have to influence them, and that generally requires kindness and compassion.  Hostility drives people away.  

You said this very well, thank you.     Dh is not anti-vax but he is not vaxxed yet.   He is the kindest man I know.    But he has a serious AI issue and any more problems with it will have *very difficult* implications on his remaining years.    He wants to give it a little more time to make sure issues with the vax don't start popping up.   I, on the either hand, rushed out to get my vax the first morning it became available to everyone in my state.   I was thrilled to get it.   But, I do not have the illness he has.   Who am I to tell him what to do?   I've pleaded with him, but it's his decision.   I just am not really upset too much at people who don't want the vax yet.     I get much more irritated by people who don't want to use a face mask. 

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, klmama said:

I have friends who won't get this vaccine.  They actually aren't anti-vaccine -- their kids are more vaccinated than mine are, if you are talking about regular vaccines.  They are concerned about this one, either because of the lack of long-term studies or because they or their family members have some health issue that they fear may get worse with vaccination.  As I know several people who have had significant reactions or have experienced worsening health issues, I can't fault anyone who avoids the vaccine out of fear of that happening -- I hesitated for a long time, too, for the same reasons. 

I hear people near me in the anti-vax crowd saying they know people who've had reactions, but I rarely hear of someone in the pro-vaccine crowd have a problem. For example, people will say a friend died (but do not give details). I think some are legit, but not specific to the Covid vaccine--someone got GBS, but that's not Covid-specific. That person could've needed and received a pneumonia or tetanus shot that day instead of the Covid shot or been exposed to the flu on that day and gotten GBS from that instead. 

I honestly suspect that some people are so stressed out that they worsen conditions they already have, and it coincides with the shot. Not that the vaccine couldn't make some symptoms worse, but so could another virus, etc. 

One anti-vaxer local to me was basically using a person's anguish over the shot as a reason to avoid it, but all I could think was, "Would they be in anguish if you hadn't been posting anti-vax information since long before there was even a vaccine to be against?" I mean, really, if you're tied up knots because you're going against your social group, some people are going to provoke a physical stress response.

I really don't know how to treat most anti-vaxers with compassion and engage them. They are just so.far.gone. With most, there is no place of truth from which to approach the problem. 

**ETA: Most people think that all VAERS reports are the gospel truth, which doesn't help. They act like they are all proof of harm before even being investigated.

Edited October 4, 2021 by kbutton

[Spy Car]

On 10/2/2021 at 7:59 AM, Fritz said:

I don't think anyone is saying that Ivermectin "holds the cure". You are assuming that anyone who does not take the vaccine is an ignorant fool. There are many people who cannot take the vaccine for medical reasons. Many have religious reasons for not taking the vaccine. Having options for treatment for those people in my mind is a good idea. Many vaccinated people also contract Covid-19. I think we are going to see those numbers increasing. Again, I was mostly talking about those that were offered no treatment pre-vaccine who could have potentially been saved if treatment had started at the time of diagnosis, rather than all the "horse wormer" hysteria from the know-it-all crowd. This new Merck drug does look promising. I am happy to see the drug companies working on treatments as well as vaccines.

Yes.

There are virtually no reasons not to take safe and effective vaccines on medical grounds and there are no valid religious exemptions either for behaviors that put other people's lives at needless risk.

Ivermectin doesn't work. So you are spreading Covid disinformation. Bad on you.

Bill

Edited October 4, 2021 by desertflower
Be nice Bill.

[klmama]

10 minutes ago, kbutton said:

I really don't know how to treat most anti-vaxers with compassion and engage them.  

That's sad.

[Spy Car]

3 minutes ago, klmama said:

That's sad.

No, what's sad is that there are people to are facilitating death and disease for no good reason.

Beyond sad. 

Bill

[kbutton]

Just now, klmama said:

That's sad.

It's sad that there is no place to start the discussion. It has nothing to do with me being willing to patiently explain to someone why they should vaccinate if they truly care to know. I had a friend seek me out for just this kind of information, and I spent hours compiling lists of links and evidence-based information and then answering follow-up questions. I would gladly send this list to others. The others that I know would simply say the sources are bogus or start instantly spouting things about their rights.

How is literally not knowing how to engage with that kind of stuff sad?

As for compassion, the ones that I know are supposedly fellow Christians who are committed to the truth, and they are spreading lies. In this area of their lives, they have opted for conspiracy theories, and they literally think the truth is not knowable because of conspiracy theories. These are the same people who supposedly believe that lies come from Satan himself. I have no compassion for spreading lies, and I don't think I am supposed to. The closest I can get is grieving that they are behaving like sheep without a shepherd and be further frustrated because leadership has basically gone silent on this issue as if it doesn't matter. 

A few spout political stuff, and I can squash that (pointing out Trump got the shot, etc.), then I can usually find out what their "real" objection is (and it's often easy to answer)--these are folks that vaccinate for everything else, but they are just too busy listening to the wrong sources, so they have doubt sown in their minds. 

[kbutton]

8 minutes ago, klmama said:

That's sad.

Sorry for the second quote, but I wanted to also mention that my DH is a healthcare practitioner. Many friends who are anti-vax would not/do not hesitate to ask him about other healthcare issues ("Do I need to go to the ER for this," etc.), but they couldn't care less what he has to say about the vaccine. Many of the people around us spreading lies about the vaccine are nurses. It's terrible here. Perhaps you are envisioning some kind of benign, handwringing concern from your anti-vax people, but the ones here are militant. Heck, they post videos saying that hospitals are killing people, not Covid. They won't mask. They protested everything from the start (literally--including passing around information on how to harass the governor at his private residence instead of the governor's mansion).

[klmama]

17 minutes ago, kbutton said:

It's sad that there is no place to start the discussion. It has nothing to do with me being willing to patiently explain to someone why they should vaccinate if they truly care to know. I had a friend seek me out for just this kind of information, and I spent hours compiling lists of links and evidence-based information and then answering follow-up questions. I would gladly send this list to others. The others that I know would simply say the sources are bogus or start instantly spouting things about their rights.

How is literally not knowing how to engage with that kind of stuff sad?

I see.  I'm glad you cared enough about your friend to give her the information she wanted.  

I'm also coming from a place of frustration, as I see people on both sides of the issue losing compassion for others.  That concerns me greatly.  Some have stopped listening or engaging with people who think differently - caused by differences in opinion on this topic, but refusing to engage on any topic - and it seems some have genuinely stopped caring what happens to their fellow human beings who think differently.  That is how I understood what you wrote, and that's what I meant when I said it was sad.  I apologize for misunderstanding your meaning.  

[kbutton]

1 minute ago, klmama said:

I see.  I'm glad you cared enough about your friend to give her the information she wanted.  

I'm also coming from a place of frustration, as I see people on both sides of the issue losing compassion for others.  That concerns me greatly.  Some have stopped listening or engaging with people who think differently - caused by differences in opinion on this topic, but refusing to engage on any topic - and it seems some have genuinely stopped caring what happens to their fellow human beings who think differently.  That is how I understood what you wrote, and that's what I meant when I said it was sad.  I apologize for misunderstanding your meaning.  

I share the same concerns in the midst of my frustration. I have come down on the side of it being impossible to discuss things with people who have left reality behind. Additionally, if we have shared values, and I can't appeal to them in any way without those values being reprioritized (actual political concern--real or imagined--prioritized over another shared value that should take precedence), then it's also not something I can overcome. Heaven knows I've tried over the last few years. This split was exacerbated by Covid, but I've been trying to bridge the divide for a while. I am conservative, for instance, and I can no longer even converse with most conservatives. There are a few who see what I see (and have seen if for the last 5 or 6 years), but the rest don't see how they've arrived at this point. They think they've always seen things this way, and it's not true. I can see that the divide has been widening for a while, but I thought it would close again. I thought the gap would disappear when certain personalities were out of the way. I was just wrong about that, and I go between wishing I had been more upset a few years ago (and maybe sought out different community at that point) and thinking that at least I stuck it out and gently pushed back when I could. Either way, we've cut our ties to the largest portion of these folks now. Long-term relationships are another story (extended family, people we've known for twenty years), but we just try to avoid talking directly about it. 

I have heard people wiser than I am speak about how many moderate people (not just in the political sense) just won't speak up anymore in fatigue, but they are in the majority. I hope so, and I hope they start speaking up. 

[Spy Car]

24 minutes ago, klmama said:

I see.  I'm glad you cared enough about your friend to give her the information she wanted.  

I'm also coming from a place of frustration, as I see people on both sides of the issue losing compassion for others.  That concerns me greatly.  Some have stopped listening or engaging with people who think differently - caused by differences in opinion on this topic, but refusing to engage on any topic - and it seems some have genuinely stopped caring what happens to their fellow human beings who think differently.  That is how I understood what you wrote, and that's what I meant when I said it was sad.  I apologize for misunderstanding your meaning.  

We have over 700,000 Americans dead and over 4.5 million dead around the globe.

The time has past when we need to worry about "the feelings" of those who are playing on Team Virus. They are fueling this pandemic and they fueling death.

This is the moral test of our age. 

Those on the wrong side are on the wrong side. Clearly and unequivocally. 

Bill

 

[desertflower]

1 hour ago, kbutton said:

It's sad that there is no place to start the discussion. It has nothing to do with me being willing to patiently explain to someone why they should vaccinate if they truly care to know. I had a friend seek me out for just this kind of information, and I spent hours compiling lists of links and evidence-based information and then answering follow-up questions. I would gladly send this list to others. The others that I know would simply say the sources are bogus or start instantly spouting things about their rights.

How is literally not knowing how to engage with that kind of stuff sad?

As for compassion, the ones that I know are supposedly fellow Christians who are committed to the truth, and they are spreading lies. In this area of their lives, they have opted for conspiracy theories, and they literally think the truth is not knowable because of conspiracy theories. These are the same people who supposedly believe that lies come from Satan himself. I have no compassion for spreading lies, and I don't think I am supposed to. The closest I can get is grieving that they are behaving like sheep without a shepherd and be further frustrated because leadership has basically gone silent on this issue as if it doesn't matter. 

A few spout political stuff, and I can squash that (pointing out Trump got the shot, etc.), then I can usually find out what their "real" objection is (and it's often easy to answer)--these are folks that vaccinate for everything else, but they are just too busy listening to the wrong sources, so they have doubt sown in their minds. 

Just to chime in.  I'm a Christian and am vaccinated.  I have a nonChristian friend who is antivax.  She thinks I'm misinformed and I think she's misinformed.  🤣   Most of my friends are Christian and are vaccinated. 

[desertflower]

18 minutes ago, kbutton said:

I share the same concerns in the midst of my frustration. I have come down on the side of it being impossible to discuss things with people who have left reality behind. Additionally, if we have shared values, and I can't appeal to them in any way without those values being reprioritized (actual political concern--real or imagined--prioritized over another shared value that should take precedence), then it's also not something I can overcome. Heaven knows I've tried over the last few years. This split was exacerbated by Covid, but I've been trying to bridge the divide for a while. I am conservative, for instance, and I can no longer even converse with most conservatives. There are a few who see what I see (and have seen if for the last 5 or 6 years), but the rest don't see how they've arrived at this point. They think they've always seen things this way, and it's not true. I can see that the divide has been widening for a while, but I thought it would close again. I thought the gap would disappear when certain personalities were out of the way. I was just wrong about that, and I go between wishing I had been more upset a few years ago (and maybe sought out different community at that point) and thinking that at least I stuck it out and gently pushed back when I could. Either way, we've cut our ties to the largest portion of these folks now. Long-term relationships are another story (extended family, people we've known for twenty years), but we just try to avoid talking directly about it. 

I have heard people wiser than I am speak about how many moderate people (not just in the political sense) just won't speak up anymore in fatigue, but they are in the majority. I hope so, and I hope they start speaking up. 

I'm getting frustrated at my friend too.  I feel for you.  I know what you are going through.  She has plenty of articles she's going to give to me today or within the next few days that will state her case. 

But the reality of it is, she knows plenty of vaccinated people and are fine.  but for some reason she's believing what she's reading.  That's what I'm trying to get through to her.  Her parents and sister are vaccinated. our mutual friends are vaccinated.  me and my extended family.  I told her this today.  So, I'm hoping she will listen.  Because this is first hand accounts.  What better source then first hand accounts?  She doesn't have to read about it in the papers.  😆

That's all i can say.  She has articles and I'm sure I can find some too.  But all we have to do is ask our family, friends and trusted doctor. 

[Spy Car]

4 minutes ago, desertflower said:

Just to chime in.  I'm a Christian and am vaccinated.  I have a nonChristian friend who is antivax.  She thinks I'm misinformed and I think she's misinformed.  🤣   Most of my friends are Christian and are vaccinated. 

One might think that every Christian would be vaccinated--after all, "love thy neighbor as thyself" is supposedly a central tenet of the faith, but the reality is that White Evangelical Christians are near the very bottom of those who are willfully not vaccinating and who are, thereby, driving the pandemic and adding to the death toll.

A very sad commentary on the state of too large a portion of American Christianity.

Bill 

[desertflower]

1 minute ago, Spy Car said:

One might think that every Christian would be vaccinated--after all, "love thy neighbor as thyself" is supposedly a central tenet of the faith, but the reality is that White Evangelical Christians are near the very bottom of those who are willfully not vaccinating and who are, thereby, driving the pandemic and adding to the death toll.

A very sad commentary on the state of too large a portion of American Christianity.

Bill 

I think they are the loudest group.  I mean for the last 100,000 deaths does it say Nonvaccinated Christian on their death certificate?

Not being vaccinated as a Christian doesn't mean that we don't love one another.  It's not that black and white.  There are various reasons for not getting vaccinated. and if one can still stay on lockdown, then one doesn't have to get vaccinated. 

I can still "love thy neighbor" by staying on lockdown. I was hoping to do that and not get vaccinated for a little while longer.  But since my husband has to go into the office once a week, we got vaccinated. 

It's the crowd that goes around nonmasked spreading it.  One can still spread it being vaccinated and nonmasked. 

Everyone in my congregation is vaccinated.  I know many Christians in my last congregation in another state are vaccinated.  I have Christian family members who are vaccinated.  I don't know why some Christians are stating religious reasons for not getting vaccinated.  But I just think they are the loudest group.  Just like in the news, most news are about bad things happening. 

[Spy Car]

12 minutes ago, desertflower said:

I think they are the loudest group.  I mean for the last 100,000 deaths does it say Nonvaccinated Christian on their death certificate?

Not being vaccinated as a Christian doesn't mean that we don't love one another.  It's not that black and white.  There are various reasons for not getting vaccinated. and if one can still stay on lockdown, then one doesn't have to get vaccinated. 

I can still "love thy neighbor" by staying on lockdown. I was hoping to do that and not get vaccinated for a little while longer.  But since my husband has to go into the office once a week, we got vaccinated. 

It's the crowd that goes around nonmasked spreading it.  One can still spread it being vaccinated and nonmasked. 

Everyone in my congregation is vaccinated.  I know many Christians in my last congregation in another state are vaccinated.  I have Christian family members who are vaccinated.  I don't know why some Christians are stating religious reasons for not getting vaccinated.  But I just think they are the loudest group.  Just like in the news, most news are about bad things happening. 

I think the situation is pretty black and white.

Those who are aggressively resisting vaccines and not masking are not--in the vast main--staying locked down. 

Whether is says "unvaccinated Christian" on someone's death certificate (or not) is irrelevant. They are dead and there is a reason why.

Those spreading willfully spreading Covid are not loving their neighbors. Far from it, they are putting their neighbors at grave risk. And now, too many pastors are trying to write bogus religious exemptions.

This is a moral failure of the worst kind.

Bill

 

 

 

[Terabith]

I have heard some folks, even on the hive, express what seemed like reasonable reasons for being hesitant about the covid vaccine for reasons of their own complicated medical history.  What I do find frustrating is that while I completely understand wanting to wait a bit because of unusual, particular medical reasons, most of the people I have encountered who are waiting are not waiting while locking down as much as they possibly can.  That would be pretty reasonable, and at least one poster on the hive is in that position.  But people simultaneously refusing to vax because of concerns and going to concerts and indoor restaurants unmasked and what not makes do danged sense.  To me, that's not cautious concern; that's irresponsibility.  

[desertflower]

7 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

I think the situation is pretty black and white.

Those who are aggressively resisting vaccines and not masking are not--in the vast main--staying locked down. 

Whether is says "unvaccinated Christian" on someone's death certificate (or not) is irrelevant. They are dead and there is a reason why.

Those spreading willfully spreading Covid are not loving their neighbors. Far from it, they are putting their neighbors at grave risk. And now, too many pastors are trying to write bogus religious exemptions.

This is a moral failure of the worst kind.

Bill

 

 

 

My response was to your reply about Christians, that's why I stated about the death certificate. 

People are making excuses no matter if they are Christians or not. 

[desertflower]

1 minute ago, Terabith said:

I have heard some folks, even on the hive, express what seemed like reasonable reasons for being hesitant about the covid vaccine for reasons of their own complicated medical history.  What I do find frustrating is that while I completely understand wanting to wait a bit because of unusual, particular medical reasons, most of the people I have encountered who are waiting are not waiting while locking down as much as they possibly can.  That would be pretty reasonable, and at least one poster on the hive is in that position.  But people simultaneously refusing to vax because of concerns and going to concerts and indoor restaurants unmasked and what not makes do danged sense.  To me, that's not cautious concern; that's irresponsibility.  

I totally agree.  It is irresponsible.  Even vaxxed, I'm still not eating indoors.  I'm hoping to just kill this virus by stop spreading it.  But that will probably not happen at this rate.  We will have to learn to live with covid.  and I rather be vaxxed then have long Covid.  or worse die from it. 

[Spy Car]

7 minutes ago, desertflower said:

My response was to your reply about Christians, that's why I stated about the death certificate. 

People are making excuses no matter if they are Christians or not. 

The fact remains that White Evangelical Christians as a group remain at just about the very bottom of the list when it comes to vaccinations.

That's a pretty appalling state of affairs if you ask me.

As is pastors writing so-called "religious exemptions" that directly counter the teachings of the faith.

Not a good look. 

Bill

[SKL]

On 10/2/2021 at 12:05 AM, Ausmumof3 said:

Not only that but a lot of resources that would typically be focussed on other disease have had to be diverted to Covid research meaning other research is set back a couple of years. On the other hand Covid research has certainly improved general understanding of viruses and immunity I guess.

I agree with your second sentence in particular.  Whatever was happening pre-Covid wasn't improving either health or awareness in general.  Developments were mostly focused in areas that would lead to riches for the few, not health for the many.

[mathnerd]

52 minutes ago, desertflower said:

I don't know why some Christians are stating religious reasons for not getting vaccinated.  But I just think they are the loudest group.

The purported reason being Embryonic cells extracted in the 1970's and cloned and used in the Testing (not Development, but in the testing) of the vaccines.

Related Information #1:

Some religious leaders, especially in the United States, believe Catholics should be allowed to claim conscientious objection to the Covid-19 vaccines on religious grounds. However Pope Francis has disagreed with this, and said the vaccines were "morally acceptable" and could be used "in good conscience".

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-58573892

Related information #2:

"Prove It" : Hospital asks anti-vax employees to prove that their claim of religious exemption is not fake.

https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/workforce/prove-it-hospital-asks-unvaccinated-employees-claiming-religious-exemption.html

Edited October 4, 2021 by mathnerd

[SKL]

Well anyways.  The vax isn't for everyone, so I'm glad they have something for those who are not vaccinated, regardless of their reasons.

If you look at the % of US healthcare spending that goes into helping those who are sick/injured/at risk due to bad choices, well it's almost our whole health care system, so I think there is a lot of irrationality on this thread.  To me, it looks like some people just need a reason to feel superior to some other group.

[desertflower]

23 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

The fact remains that White Evangelical Christians as a group remain at just about the very bottom of the list when it comes to vaccinations.

That's a pretty appalling state of affairs if you ask me.

As is pastors writing so-called "religious exemptions" that directly counter the teachings of the faith.

Not a good look. 

Bill

I'm sure it is.  But there are plenty of non-Christians like this as well. 

Every time I get a report I read part of the thread, and I see people type Christians.  Rarely, people say some Christians.  I think it's more valid if people say some Christians. 

Just like I wouldn't say Asians are smart.  Or Italian men are very fine. Just stereotyping.  It's more acceptable to say the word some in front. 

[desertflower]

16 minutes ago, mathnerd said:

The purported reason being Embryonic cells extracted in the 1970's and cloned and used in the Testing (not Development, but in the testing) of the vaccines.

Related Information #1:

Some religious leaders, especially in the United States, believe Catholics should be allowed to claim conscientious objection to the Covid-19 vaccines on religious grounds. However Pope Francis has disagreed with this, and said the vaccines were "morally acceptable" and could be used "in good conscience".

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-58573892

Related information #2:

"Prove It" : Hospital asks anti-vax employees to prove that their claim of religious exemption is not fake.

https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/workforce/prove-it-hospital-asks-unvaccinated-employees-claiming-religious-exemption.html

Oh yes, I forgot about the embryonic cells. I don't know enough about it to comment on it.  Thanks for the info. 

[Happy2BaMom]

This news (about the new drug) IS wonderful.

I'd still like to point out that "almost half" still means that the new drug will not be effective for 50+% of the unvaccinated.

I think we're at ~1,900 people/day are dying of Covid right now....the new drug would mean *only* ~950/day would be dying. Yes, a near-50% reduction is wonderful....for the people in that 50%.

 

[Spy Car]

3 minutes ago, desertflower said:

I'm sure it is.  But there are plenty of non-Christians like this as well. 

Every time I get a report I read part of the thread, and I see people type Christians.  Rarely, people say some Christians.  I think it's more valid if people say some Christians. 

Just like I wouldn't say Asians are smart.  Or Italian men are very fine. Just stereotyping.  It's more acceptable to say the word some in front. 

Not really. White Evangelical Christians as a group don't have many rivals for bottom of the pack. The other contender I can't mention under the board rules.

And, as a point of fact, I have qualified the criticisms of Christian non-compliance in each instance. The attempt to suggest I'm stereotyping is false.

What's not false if that White Evangelical Christians are near the bottom of the list for vaccinations and that is a terrible disgrace to a religion that has "love thy neighbor" as a supposed virtue.

Same with pastors who are writing religious exemptions. Neither of these dreadful conditions are a matter of stereotyping, but--rather--what is actually happening as we speak.

I appreciate that some Christians have spoken up in opposition to such behaviors and I hope those voices get louder.

Bill

 

[Spy Car]

1 minute ago, Happy2BaMom said:

This news (about the new drug) IS wonderful.

I'd still like to point out that "almost half" still means that the new drug will not be effective for 50+% of the unvaccinated.

I think we're at ~1,900 people/day are dying of Covid right now....the new drug would mean *only* ~950/day would be dying. Yes, a near-50% reduction is wonderful....for the people in that 50%.

 

The good news from the initial study is that no one died who took these medications after getting Covid.

"Hospitalization and death" seems like it is treated as a single cohort. But it seems more accurate that this new med may cut hospitalizations by 50% and death by a great deal more than that.

The only downside is that there may be an unintended consequence if people continue to avoid vaccination, get sick, get others sick, and we still have high hospitalization rates.

Why can't people just do the right thing?

Bill

 

[desertflower]

9 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

Not really. White Evangelical Christians as a group don't have many rivals for bottom of the pack. The other contender I can't mention under the board rules.

And, as a point of fact, I have qualified the criticisms of Christian non-compliance in each instance. The attempt to suggest I'm stereotyping is false.

What's not false if that White Evangelical Christians are near the bottom of the list for vaccinations and that is a terrible disgrace to a religion that has "love thy neighbor" as a supposed virtue.

Same with pastors who are writing religious exemptions. Neither of these dreadful conditions are a matter of stereotyping, but--rather--what is actually happening as we speak.

I appreciate that some Christians have spoken up in opposition to such behaviors and I hope those voices get louder.

Bill

 

I’m not saying you are stereotyping. That remark was for everyone else. 
 

and we can agree to disagree. 

[Spy Car]

4 minutes ago, desertflower said:

I’m not saying you are stereotyping. That remark was for everyone else. 
 

and we can agree to disagree. 

Sure came off that way to me.

And I don't think refusing to vaccinate comports with the commandment to love one's neighbor as oneself. Quite the opposite.

Thoughtful Christians should get a lot louder in repudiating the misuse of the faith IMO.

Bill

[desertflower]

3 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

Sure came off that way to me.

And I don't think refusing to vaccinate comports with the commandment to love one's neighbor as oneself. Quite the opposite.

Thoughtful Christians should get a lot louder in repudiating the misuse of the faith IMO.

Bill

Yes. I hear you. I understand what you are saying. You don’t have to keep repeating yourself. 🤫

[Happy2BaMom]

15 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

The good news from the initial study is that no one died who took these medications after getting Covid.

"Hospitalization and death" seems like it is treated as a single cohort. But it seems more accurate that this new med may cut hospitalizations by 50% and death by a great deal more than that.

The only downside is that there may be an unintended consequence if people continue to avoid vaccination, get sick, get others sick, and we still have high hospitalization rates.

Why can't people just do the right thing?

Bill

 

That's better news....I'd still like to point out that it was a very small study (~380 people received the Molnupiravir) and the entire study has not been peer reviewed.

Not trying to be difficult, just cautious until further data is released.

[desertflower]

4 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

Sure came off that way to me.

And I don't think refusing to vaccinate comports with the commandment to love one's neighbor as oneself. Quite the opposite.

Thoughtful Christians should get a lot louder in repudiating the misuse of the faith IMO.

Bill

I get reports. I go to these threads and I see lots of people just saying Christians. Without the word some in front of it. That’s all I was saying . If you are one of them, then yes it pertains to you. But I’m sure there are others out there. 
 

im just a Christian. I’m human. Will I make mistakes. Yes. I will not always know how to do what is right. Just like non-Christians. We all are just humans. We have different beliefs. We make different decisions. But in the end, it is our decision. 

[Spy Car]

Just now, desertflower said:

I get reports. I go to these threads and I see lots of people just saying Christians. Without the word some in front of it. That’s all I was saying . If you are one of them, then yes it pertains to you. But I’m sure there are others out there. 
 

im just a Christian. I’m human. Will I make mistakes. Yes. I will not always know how to do what is right. Just like non-Christians. We all are just humans. We have different beliefs. We make different decisions. But in the end, it is our decision. 

I'm sure you get reports. Those on Team Virus don't like getting called out, I'm sure.

Right and wrong in this pandemic isn't a tough call. Let's not pretend this is a close call.

One acts to protect life or one helps feed the pandemic and facilitates illness and death.

Few things in life are this clear cut if you ask me.

Bill

[Spy Car]

6 minutes ago, Happy2BaMom said:

That's better news....I'd still like to point out that it was a very small study (~380 people received the Molnupiravir) and the entire study has not been peer reviewed.

Not trying to be difficult, just cautious until further data is released.

Caution is well advised. As you suggest these are very preliminary numbers and the study has not been peer reviewed. But there is cause for optimism when it comes to mortality.

I am concerned that some quarters will read this the wrong way and will use it as a further excuse to avoid vaccination. Unfortunately.

Bill

[Roadrunner]

In my community black population is the least vaccinated followed by granola white parents. So locally persuading African American community to vaccinate has been the hardest. Persuading granola parents - impossible. Our county has done an excellent job in getting the vaccines out to the Hispanic community. I think some of this is very local. 
 

Glad to see effective drugs on the market. We need them, vaccinated or not. 

[Fritz]

4 hours ago, Spy Car said:

Yes.

There are virtually no reasons not to take safe and effective vaccines on medical grounds and there are no valid religious exemptions either for behaviors that put other people's lives at needless risk.

Ivermectin doesn't work. So you are spreading Covid disinformation. Bad on you.

Bill

I am not spreading anything. Feel free to not view Dr. Campbell's video. As to those who are not taking the vaccine here's a breakdown:

https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/issue-brief/latest-data-on-covid-19-vaccinations-race-ethnicity/

https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/news/20210810/covid-vaccine-hesitancy-90-million

Othering as you are doing is not helpful. There is no "team virus". Talking down to people or about people, I realize makes you feel superior, but it is in no way helpful in convincing those that are hesitant to be vaccinated. There's no mention of % of pompous know it alls taking the vaccine. I'm sure that all that know them know their vaccine status though.

And as I said before, I was speaking of the possibility of having given these kits in the months before the vaccines were made available, how different the outcome might have been.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Fritz