Anyone else regret homeschooling?

[PeterPan]

On 9/22/2021 at 3:04 PM, LucyStoner said:

The niche of accounting that I function in provides me with decent money for reasonably meaningful work and very little effort on my part because I am good at what I do and I don't need more education to do it.  

Can I ask whether you did career testing or how you landed on this path?

Edited September 24, 2021 by PeterPan

[Spryte]

3 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

Yikes. 

Thankfully I do not have to factor in supporting parents. 

It’s definitely a painful issue.

 

[PeterPan]

On 9/22/2021 at 4:29 PM, Condessa said:

I do wonder about now, though.  I am so tired...  I have been running on empty for so long, and somehow keep finding more and more to give when I think I have nothing left. 

 

21 hours ago, Alte Veste Academy said:

I feel adrift, without conviction in any direction. I had big dreams as a student/teen/young woman that were replaced by my very strong sense of the rightness of being home with my children, which turned into a very strong sense of the rightness of educating my children. Now I have some big dreams of things I could do, and they are smaller than my old big dreams but I don't feel enthusiastic about them, which is not me. I've got some things to figure out.

To me these two issues intertwine. We gave our most energetic years to homeschooling, not realizing we wouldn't always feel the same, and now we're left with another 20 where we're kind of winding down into mature solidity. I can show up on time but I'm probably not going to work as tirelessly, nor would I even care to. 

[Not_a_Number]

30 minutes ago, SKL said:

I am not sure what to say about this assignment, but I'm pretty sure my kids' response to that question would be:  "your mom."  To which I would laugh and change the subject.

Seriously, she sounds like a perfectionist.  She would rather give an obviously wrong answer, or no answer, than to make a serious attempt and be wrong.  And you dragging this on for 2 hours (for what purpose?) is not going to fix her basic issue.

No, she's not a perfectionist. She's not at all a perfectionist. She rarely checks her work and doesn't care at all if it's right if she "got the idea." 

This wasn't even an assignment. It was a word that we came across that I asked her to think about quickly. I had also been backing away from conflict and allowing her not to think about stuff she didn't feel like, except that started completely taking over our homeschooling. There were a lot of things she didn't feel like thinking about. Words. Grammar. How to repeat a sentence correctly after me. How to multiply numbers she didn't feel like multiplying. How to fix arithmetic mistakes. It stopped being feasible to let her not to do anything she didn't feel like doing, even though that is in fact what I had foolishly been doing for 2 years. And that's why I insisted on her thinking about it. I didn't think it'd take 2 hours. But I knew that if I folded yet again, things weren't going to get better. 

This conversation is depressing me. She's not an easy kid and I've tried an incredible number of things over the last couple of years, and yet people are still insisting on blaming me for the ways in which she's difficult. Everyone seems to know my kid better than I do without having ever met her and no one seems to believe me when I describe what we've tried. 

I'm exhausted. Homeschooling has meant the world to me and the possibility that we can't do it any more is breaking my heart. I don't want any more smug "obviously it's all YOU" responses, please. 

I'm out. 

[Arcadia]

28 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

. I can show up on time but I'm probably not going to work as tirelessly, nor would I even care to. 

I once worked as a temp software tester for a printer company. We had a certain amount of testing to be finished by noon and another amount of testing to be completed by 5pm. Our supervisor don’t care if we take two hours lunch. He also didn’t care if we play computer games or surf the internet after we completed our assigned work. We could eat at our desks. It was a minimum wage temp job but it was relaxing. 

Edited September 24, 2021 by Arcadia
Typo

[Melissa Louise]

I've liked working from home this term. So long as I get through the work, it doesn't really matter when or how long it takes (other than student Zooms, of course). I've enjoyed starting at six and being done at midday some days. 

I'm not really looking forward to going back to tightly scheduled on site learning, even excluding all the Covid stuff. 

[kiwik]

On 9/21/2021 at 12:06 AM, Melissa Louise said:

My kids hardly remember all the pouring out of creativity for their benefit, lol. I'm sure many people do have that impact, don't get me wrong, but I am pretty sure it wasn't as significant in our case as I thought at the time. 

I actually don't mind a small life, in some ways. It can have very happy moments. It's just, well, small. 

We don"t remember a lot from when we are kids but we are shaped by it.  

[kiwik]

5 hours ago, Arcadia said:

I once worked as a temp software tester for a printer company. We had a certain amount of testing to be finished by noon and another amount of testing to be completed by 5pm. Our supervisor don’t care if we take two hours lunch. He also didn’t care if we play computer games or surf the internet after we completed our assigned work. We could eat at our desks. It was a minimum wage temp job but it was relaxing. 

See most minimum wage jobs they expect you to clean if there is any down time.  In my experience the less they are paying the more they want their pound of flesh.

[Eos]

12 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

It was important, in my case, to draw back, focus on joy and beauty and relationship for a time, because the relationship IS the MOST important part.

Agree.  I know the poster has moved on to another thread, but I will leave this here.  Thank you.

[Eos]

I regret certain things that were concomitant with homeschooling but never homeschooling itself, if that makes sense.  I regret the amount of insecurity I allowed myself to experience.  I regret that I never told my husband how much I wished he would verbally appreciate all we did.  I regret that I only rarely told my husband how much I appreciated all he did!  And I regret that I was so lonely during such an intense time of our lives.  It's fully my identity and I am quite nervous about "what comes next" as I've said in other threads.  I have other identities within my community but none that matters to me as much.

I once hosted a couple at my lodging business that were on a vacation celebrating their last of 8 kids graduating homeschool, paid for by their kids.  It was so sweet.  We never had a honeymoon, so when my last graduates I think I would like a honeymoon-that-is-also-the-end-of-homeschooling trip to mark the occasion.  We're big on "ceremonies" so that would just feel right, and hopefully lead into a healthy mourning period and a move to the next thing.  Whenever I figure out what that will be!

[LucyStoner]

10 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Can I ask whether you did career testing or how you landed on this path?

When my older son was born, I was working at a non-profit as basically an office admin.  I revamped their bookkeeping and grants reporting system because it needed doing and found that people with a head for numbers and analytics are kind of a rare commodity in the non-profit world.  At my next job, I was running a small organization and learned the relevant to non-profits side of tax accounting on a trial by fire basis because they neglected to tell me they were several years arrears in filing their taxes when they offered me the job (like 5th day on the job, there was an IRS investigator with a badge knocking on the door FFS) and also doing all of their grant writing.  At my next job, they needed a grantwriter, fundraiser and full charge bookkeeper.  I did well in both the fundraising and bookkeeping but it became clear that my son really couldn’t go to school.  We landed on homeschooling, and I started staying home.  I did some contract work in grantwriting and fundraising but was quickly reminded  that fundraising and part time work don’t really go together well.  At my last job, I had hired a contract bookkeeper to give more me more time to focus on fundraising.  He was impressed with my attention to detail and understanding of non-profit accounting needs and had mentioned that I could probably do what he did.  I called him up, picked his brain and got my first client or two, mostly from people I knew from my past work who needed bookkeeping services that really understood fund accounting as it applies to non-profits.  I found that bookkeeping, unlike fundraising, could be done on a part-time basis.  I got myself certified in the software that most small non-profits use for accounting.  I took more accounting classes here and there with an eye towards perhaps becoming a CPA.  I found though that I didn’t really have time for homeschooling and part time work AND full-time school plus I absolutely didn’t need to be a CPA for what I was doing and in fact there was a huge space in the market for people who were more skilled than a basic bookkeeper but not as pricey as a CPA (CPAs in my area bill north of $200/hr).  I had helped clients with audit prep and such and so some of my referrals came from the CPA firms that we worked with who had clients that needed someone who understood non-profit accounting; the rest of my referrals came from staff WOM.  When I was in undergrad, I had studied business and economics and part of that was the core accounting series but those 3 accounting classes were all I had when I started out.  

I have done career assessments and worked with a career coach when I was thinking of going to law school.  The coach felt that I’d be good at both law and mediation.  I stopped working with her right at the start of Covid because I didn’t have the bandwidth.  I may resume at some point.  While I don’t want to go to law school, I have considered some pivots that would use more of my writing and analytical skills.  Basically my work is helping people not make accounting and bookkeeping mistakes, untangle labyrinthine state reimbursement processes, prepare financial reports and budgets that are grant ready.  It’s a lot of explaining the basics of accrual accounting and setting up clean accounting systems and processes.  I do some writing for it- mostly policies and procedures.  There’s a clear overlap some of the same skills that would have helped in law but it’s also rather dull work.  That said, it’s dull work where I can earn great money because looping back to what I said at the start of this:  people with a head for numbers are a commodity in the non-profit sector.  

Edited September 24, 2021 by LucyStoner

[Carrie12345]

14 hours ago, Arcadia said:

Those I know are already not active in the boards, too busy with work and/or divorce. 
Even among my Generation X friends back where I am from whose spouses are working full time, many don’t see themselves retiring before 65 because of having elderly parents to support. My in-laws don’t have pension for example so my FIL worked until he was retrenched at retirement age. For them it is a combination of parents with no pension and parents living longer (and unfortunately higher medical expenses as they age). 

As a youngish X’er (‘77), retirement planning isn’t a big topic of conversation in my circles. Thinking about it now, I’d say the majority of my homeschooling friends are working while homeschooling as it is.

I don’t know of any Boomers or X’ers (overall, not specifically homeschoolers or sahps) who intend to retire on the early end, except for one retired, wealthy couple that seems to still have their hand in a few things. Otherwise, everyone looks to be going as long as they’re able.

On one hand, that makes me recognize my position as more precarious. On the other hand, if most people aren’t coming from a long-term sah position, can I really point to that as a root cause?

[Faith-manor]

15 hours ago, Arcadia said:

Those I know are already not active in the boards, too busy with work and/or divorce. 
Even among my Generation X friends back where I am from whose spouses are working full time, many don’t see themselves retiring before 65 because of having elderly parents to support. My in-laws don’t have pension for example so my FIL worked until he was retrenched at retirement age. For them it is a combination of parents with no pension and parents living longer (and unfortunately higher medical expenses as they age). 

This. My mother really did not have enough savings to even think about being retired, but what was a women with a cancer patient husband and 70 years old supposed to do? She had to retire. We help support her while putting kids through college simultaneously. I went back to work in order to make I all happen. Now my job, community fine arts program director with a non-profit, has been gutted due to covid. But, after many appeals, we managed to finally find a V.A. lawyer who was able to make the V.A. cough up a gob of money owed my dad for injuries he injuries incurred in the Air Force that he had to pay out of pocket to treat. The settlement was no generous given what he went thriugh, however, it has left a cushion so I don't feel quite so stressed. But, once some level of normal returns to society, I will be going back to work for a few more years.

I fell like Gen X, sandwiched between boomers many of whom thanks to modern medical advancements will live well beyond their money, and ridiculous costs of college and launching young adult children, will die younger than their parents because we will wear ourselves out crushed by the load. My mother's generation also seems to have much higher expectations for the level of personal care and attention they should receive vs. my grandmother's generation. My grandparents were really understanding and did everything possible to not make it harder. I can NOT say that about my mom and mother in law, and many people I know feel the same way about how their grandparents behaved in retirement compared to their parents. Not sure why this is. Possibly being post WWII boon in their formative and teen years maybe? 

[Jenny in Florida]

4 hours ago, Harpymom said:

I once hosted a couple at my lodging business that were on a vacation celebrating their last of 8 kids graduating homeschool, paid for by their kids.  It was so sweet.  We never had a honeymoon, so when my last graduates I think I would like a honeymoon-that-is-also-the-end-of-homeschooling trip to mark the occasion.  We're big on "ceremonies" so that would just feel right, and hopefully lead into a healthy mourning period and a move to the next thing.  Whenever I figure out what that will be!

I realized at some point not too long ago that I haven't really had ceremony to recognize most of my achievements or milestones (at least, not since I graduated from middle school in 1978). And that is largely because I have taken a somewhat unconventional path through life. When I'm in charge of things, I work hard to make them special for others. So, I do sometimes feel sad that I haven't had those opportunities.

I didn't graduate from high school in a traditional way. I finished my B.A. mid year, and there was no ceremony until the end of the following semester, by which time I was working and had pretty much moved on from the whole college experience. My husband and I planned and paid for our own very small wedding (which happened under a sort of emotional cloud because of some drama in my extended family). I didn't have a baby shower with for my daughter. (My husband and a friend did organize a lunch meet-up at a restaurant when I was having our son.) I earned a graduate certificate a year or so ago, which arrived in the mail. I showed it to my husband, who said, "Congratulations" and went back to whatever he was doing. 

I know it's dumb. I know none of it "matters." I know I could arrange my own party or tell my family that I insist they do something for me. (I will say that that latter idea hasn't worked for me when I've tried similar things before. Like the time I explicitly told my husband and son and his then-girlfriend that I really wanted them to come to the opening of a project I had facilitated at the local library . . . My husband showed up grumpy and complained about the crowds and noise. My son showed up late. The girlfriend didn't feel well and didn't come at all.) 

But homeschooling was a Really. Big. Deal. for me, and it sure would have been nice if anyone had noticed.

[HS Mom in NC]

18 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

OH MY GOODNESS. Are you serious?!?!?!

You'd be willing to do this day in and day out for 3 months without any perceptible improvement except the kid getting more and more resentful?? I'm sorry to exaggerate a little here (no, it didn't ruin my life, but it certainly made my life way tenser and more unpleasant than it had to be), but jumping straight to "and you shouldn't homeschool" is bizarre. 

When you describe it as ruining your life and keep insisting it's impossible and counterproductive for you to spend the time doing what homeschool parents like me and others do: the drudgery of making the child do it over until it's done correctly or by the deadline, then, yes.  It seems to me you're no more interested in doing the unfun parts of homeschooling as the parent than your child is in doing the unfun parts of homeschooling as a student.  So if getting things done to standards is as impossible as you insist it is, and your relationship is going down as badly as your posts seems to indicate if you even try for as long (gasp!) 3 months,  then it sounds like other academic options are necessary in your case. You seem to have very little tolerance for tension, frustration, and difficulty that naturally occur in even the best homeschooling settings. Those are all part of homeschooling to different degrees at different times.  In short, I think you have unrealistic expectations of children and homeschooling in general and you're prone to overreacting and personalizing when it isn't appropriate.

You seem to think that I'm disagreeing with you because I don't understand what you're saying.  That's a common mistake many people make.  I disagree with you because I understand what you're saying and have a completely different set of expectations for homeschooling, parenting and family dynamics.  I'm not surprised or bothered that some children make silly, inattentive mistakes, don't enjoy some or all of their academics, etc. and I don't take any of that personally. I'm not bothered when my kids complain to me about not liking certain parts of assignments and such.  That's just part of the homeschooling package. I choose to take the whole of homeschooling and all that comes with it.  I think you might be better off leaving it because your level of being upset now is so high with very typical behaviors, I'm thinking about how much harder it will be when the layer of puberty hits.  That's usually when homeschooling gets much harder in most situations.

You also seem to think you have a situation so unique no one could possible provide any useful feedback and no forms of comparison are useful in your situation.  You're simply wrong about that.  Your situation isn't as unique as you think it is.

[Lady Florida.]

On 9/20/2021 at 2:25 AM, Melissa in Australia said:

 

 I have noticed recently  (like in the last 3 years) that I have become completely addicted to gardening. it is like the only real world is gardening and everything else is just an interference . the crazier the world becomes around me the more my brain turns off and just focuses on plants

I think I found this on the jokes and memes thread. 😂

ETA: I couldn't get it to show up under this quote. See below.

On 9/20/2021 at 5:37 AM, Carrie12345 said:

 

Though it sounds uncomfortably anti-feminist on the surface, providing the ultimate flexibility for dh’s career has done more than my own would have. Sometimes I do struggle with not having my own “success” to point to, but not enough that I’d do it differently.

 

This was the decision we made. Dh would have loved to be a stay at home dad though I'm not sure he would have made a good homeschool dad. His salary in the space industry definitely paid more than my teaching salary so I was the one who stayed home. 

Edited September 24, 2021 by Lady Florida.

[HS Mom in NC]

18 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

That is incredibly rude. I'm sort of shocked you'd be willing to say something like this to a stranger on the Internet. 

I like talking to people and this has been a big social outlet for me during the pandemic. I'm sorry to derail your thread, @Melissa Louise -- we've been having a rough few days and I've definitely overused this thread. I'll go back to my own thread (I did start it for that reason), and I'll encourage anyone who finds me annoying not to follow me. 

My apologies for posting so much on here. 

ETA: And I'm certainly about to use some useful forum functions. They lower my blood pressure. 

If you're shocked at getting direct feedback on a discussion board on the internet, then you're unrealistic about internet culture.

[PeterPan]

16 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

She's not an easy kid and I've tried an incredible number of things over the last couple of years, and yet people are still insisting on blaming me for the ways in which she's difficult.

Fwiw, the answer at that point is evals.

16 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

no one seems to believe me when I describe what we've tried. 

I had a point where someone challenged me (not on the boards here but irl!) saying that *I had been dealing with this for some time*. It was so polite, where maybe on the boards here we're pretty frank, but she was right that I had lost track of how long I was complaining about something without actually taking the steps to get the information to change the dynamic.

16 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

backing away from conflict

It's sad that this word is part of what you're dealing with. I get it (btdt with dd and that's a word that applied), but again I'll politely say that that's your clue that it's time to get evals. Do you know how?

https://www.hoagiesgifted.org/psychologists.htm  Try here. Won't be perfect but it's a start. Yourself, her, the family dog, take in anyone you want. 

I have no clue what answers you'd get with evals, but in my experience having the right words for what I'm seeing gave me the ability to find better tools and better methods of working together. You said you've tried a lot and that people blame you, and I really don't think that's the case that people blame you (even though it feels like it). You have a conglomeration here of women who've worked with some pretty astonishing situations, and I guarantee you they, to a person, did it by doing what someone else said couldn't be done. And they did it by getting INFORMATION. Information and data lets you make better decisions and get access to better tools/approaches/methodologies. Otherwise you're shooting in the dark.

We've had women here who didn't eval but would come back and complain and they get taken to task pretty heavily. Sometimes it's that the mom doesn't see it yet. I was in that camp, so that makes sense to me. But what doesn't make sense to me is not respecting yourself enough as an educator to want the same full information that any school team would want to work with the dc successfully. THAT to me is key, respecting yourself and your task enough to demand information and answers to allow you to work together successfully. 

 

Edited September 24, 2021 by PeterPan

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, PeterPan said:

I had a point where someone challenged me (not on the boards here but irl!) saying that *I had been dealing with this for some time*. It was so polite, where maybe on the boards here we're pretty frank, but she was right that I had lost track of how long I was complaining about something without actually taking the steps to get the information to change the dynamic.

Well, honestly, we've changed the dynamic a lot this year. It's not actually the case that we're standing still. 

[Not_a_Number]

The point is that I'm about 98% sure I'd have an easier time with her if she went to school 😛 . My experience of her in school and in classes are that she functions perfectly well in them and manages without trouble. 

[PeterPan]

16 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

She rarely checks her work and doesn't care at all if it's right if she "got the idea." 

This is pretty typical of ADHD. It's just par for the course and a consequence of chemistry.

16 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

It was a word that we came across that I asked her to think about quickly.

I wonder if this interaction would change if you had data from evals about her processing speed? My dd was so bright that I had NO CLUE how severely her processing speed was affected and WHO SIGNIFICANTLY discrepant it was from IQ. So yes, I would expect conflict and challenging behaviors if a dc is being pinned in (inadvertently) by a person who doesn't have the data to realize what they're working with.

If you want to change the dynamic, you need more information. Just repeating what you've already tried or trying well meaning advice from the internet or a church or whatever won't help. Without INFORMATION and data, you're just shooting in the dark trying random approaches. 

It's not like a school is going to find her a picnic either. She's still going to be the same her, albeit with higher structure in a school setting. You'd be EXCEPTIONALLY wise to get evals hot fast if you're putting her in school, because you want to be able to advocate and have this go well.

 

[PeterPan]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

My experience of her in school and in classes are that she functions perfectly well in them and manages without trouble.

Girls have a way of flying under the radar.

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, PeterPan said:

This is pretty typical of ADHD. It's just par for the course and a consequence of chemistry.

She doesn't have ADHD. She really doesn't. It doesn't fit. 

 

1 minute ago, PeterPan said:

I wonder if this interaction would change if you had data from evals about her processing speed? My dd was so bright that I had NO CLUE how severely her processing speed was affected and WHO SIGNIFICANTLY discrepant it was from IQ. So yes, I would expect conflict and challenging behaviors if a dc is being pinned in (inadvertently) by a person who doesn't have the data to realize what they're working with.

It doesn't help if I give her more time. At all. 

 

1 minute ago, PeterPan said:

It's not like a school is going to find her a picnic either. She's still going to be the same her, albeit with higher structure in a school setting. You'd be EXCEPTIONALLY wise to get evals hot fast if you're putting her in school, because you want to be able to advocate and have this go well.

She has been in lots of classroom situations in her life and has never had any trouble. Model student, I swear. 

The problem with her is that she's incredibly prone to feeling resentful and feeling like there's a power struggle. This problem is BETWEEN US. It's how a kid with her personality responds to being taught by her mom. 

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Girls have a way of flying under the radar.

Yes, I know, but I'm more ASD than she is (I always say spectrum-adjacent, and I think that's right) and know what ASD/ADHD girls look like, and she isn't it. 

Edited September 24, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Alte Veste Academy]

 

2 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Fwiw, the answer at that point is evals.

I had a point where someone challenged me (not on the boards here but irl!) saying that *I had been dealing with this for some time*. It was so polite, where maybe on the boards here we're pretty frank, but she was right that I had lost track of how long I was complaining about something without actually taking the steps to get the information to change the dynamic.

It's sad that this word is part of what you're dealing with. I get it (btdt with dd and that's a word that applied), but again I'll politely say that that's your clue that it's time to get evals. Do you know how?

https://www.hoagiesgifted.org/psychologists.htm  Try here. Won't be perfect but it's a start. Yourself, her, the family dog, take in anyone you want. 

I have no clue what answers you'd get with evals, but in my experience having the right words for what I'm seeing gave me the ability to find better tools and better methods of working together. You said you've tried a lot and that people blame you, and I really don't think that's the case that people blame you (even though it feels like it). You have a conglomeration here of women who've worked with some pretty astonishing situations, and I guarantee you they, to a person, did it by doing what someone else said couldn't be done. And they did it by getting INFORMATION. Information and data lets you make better decisions and get access to better tools/approaches/methodologies. Otherwise you're shooting in the dark.

We've had women here who didn't eval but would come back and complain and they get taken to task pretty heavily. Sometimes it's that the mom doesn't see it yet. I was in that camp, so that makes sense to me. But what doesn't make sense to me is not respecting yourself enough as an educator to want the same full information that any school team would want to work with the dc successfully. THAT to me is key, respecting yourself and your task enough to demand information and answers to allow you to work together successfully. 

Yeah. See below. LOL/not

2 hours ago, PeterPan said:

This is pretty typical of ADHD. It's just par for the course and a consequence of chemistry.

I wonder if this interaction would change if you had data from evals about her processing speed? My dd was so bright that I had NO CLUE how severely her processing speed was affected and WHO SIGNIFICANTLY discrepant it was from IQ. So yes, I would expect conflict and challenging behaviors if a dc is being pinned in (inadvertently) by a person who doesn't have the data to realize what they're working with.

If you want to change the dynamic, you need more information. Just repeating what you've already tried or trying well meaning advice from the internet or a church or whatever won't help. Without INFORMATION and data, you're just shooting in the dark trying random approaches. 

It's not like a school is going to find her a picnic either. She's still going to be the same her, albeit with higher structure in a school setting. You'd be EXCEPTIONALLY wise to get evals hot fast if you're putting her in school, because you want to be able to advocate and have this go well.

Yep. Again, see below. And how these things can't be true of her because she's had other teachers and she's a model pupil. Yep. See below.

2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

She doesn't have ADHD. She really doesn't. It doesn't fit. 

It doesn't help if I give her more time. At all. 

She has been in lots of classroom situations in her life and has never had any trouble. Model student, I swear. 

The problem with her is that she's incredibly prone to feeling resentful and feeling like there's a power struggle. This problem is BETWEEN US. It's how a kid with her personality responds to being taught by her mom. 

2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

Yes, I know, but I'm more ASD than she is (I always say spectrum-adjacent, and I think that's right) and know what ASD/ADHD girls look like, and she isn't it. 

You just absolutely, positively do not know this. You think you know, because you know your child as any homeschooler/mother knows her child, but you do not know her from the neutral perspective of an expert evaluator and all the tools with which they are equipped. You have too much emotion to see things clearly, and you are assigning motives to her patterns of behavior that are as much (if not more) about your psychological makeup as they are about hers. 

I've been reading your thread within a thread here as I work through the regrets thread, which is very interesting to me, as I am coming to the final chapters of my homeschooling journey. I have almost posted a response to you 5 times over the past few days and, honestly, the reason I haven't is because you shoot anyone down immediately who says things you don't want to hear. You seem to have a knee-jerk reaction to having your current thinking challenged. But here I am, posting and agreeing that you need to have her evaluated. And, truthfully, because of my own history, it is driving me nuts that you keep saying you know that she doesn't have this or that because you just know it. 

You are rightfully proud of your PhD in Probability. It conveys a level of expertise. Our evaluator has a PhD in Educational Psychology along with a slew of other qualifications, and those convey a level of expertise as well. She also has decades of experience diagnosing and working with children/teens/young adults. When you keep saying over and over that you know these things just don't fit her but then post and post and post and post about how she is frustrating you beyond reason and you cannot figure her out, why wouldn't you just respect that a PhD neuropsychologist with scads of experience and insight could possibly be a help to you? Why wouldn't you just take your DD for evaluations?

The worst case scenario is that something is going on that could be found but you don't take her in to find it. She either has something going on that's diagnosable or she doesn't. And if she does, the best case scenario is that you find it as early as possible. If she doesn't, yeah, it's a relationship thing probably, and school should be a better fit. And maybe counseling. But without evaluations, you are guessing. 

I have been on these boards since 2008, when my DS18 started Kindergarten. I had struggles, many similar to yours. The kid was/is smart as a whip, but omg, the challenges to get him to do good work... Tears were shed. You want credentials for my misery? Probably around your DD9's age, my DS drew a picture of him and me as fire and ice. Something was wrong. I saw so many people here talk about evaluations and considered it, but I knew my kid. And I had most of the exact same issues you describe having with your DD, right down to being a model student for other teachers. My DS could do perfect work. And you wanna hear the kicker?! I have a Masters in Social Work. I studied the DSM-V. I worked with kids with similar issues. But my kid didn't have anything I couldn't work around because, hey, we're homeschoolers and can be flexible. And I brushed away the idea that he could have ASD a thousand times. But I always had a feeling I was not getting the best out of him. I was right about that. 

My DS18 was diagnosed with ASD at...18. He was diagnosed with ADHD in 9th grade. (This one I had guessed right on, but didn't want him officially diagnosed and started on meds until high school). It turns out he has a high virtually everything you can evaluate for, but his processing speed—which was the only aspect of testing he scored below "superior" on—is in the basement. And THAT one thing that I—as his homeschooler, his mother, and someone with experience in the field—could never see has been enough to make school a special kind of hell unless (thanks to the ADHD and ASD, lol) it is something he is personally extremely invested in. 

Being absolutely amazing at masking is what kept him from a diagnosis for so long. Well, I mean obviously it was my complete and utter lack of humility that kept me from getting him evaluated, because I just knew! The neuropsychologist said she'd never seen masking at his level before. Sounds like a compliment, lol, but it's absolutely not. Masking is not good. It's exhausting. He's exhausted. And he broke. 

I honest to goodness do not want you to respond to this post. I think you have your DD's best interests at heart. Of course you do. Despite being here for so many years, I have never come and posted about the brokenness my DS started experiencing in 11th grade because of my negligence in following the advice to get him evaluated when he was younger. I am very tender about revealing this, especially because I think it's likely that you won't hear it in the spirit it's intended. You are very defensive. I was too, and I regret it. The biggest risk of having him evaluated when he was your DD9's age would have been them finding nothing. But I didn't do it, and I've got a lot of guilt about that. Your DD is different, obviously. And you might be right when I wasn't, obviously. But I'm just posting to tell you that you don't know, and that the kindest thing you can do for you and your DD both is to have her evaluated. 

And really, I'm begging you not to respond to this post.  

Edited September 24, 2021 by Alte Veste Academy

[Not_a_Number]

33 minutes ago, Alte Veste Academy said:

And really, I'm begging you not to respond to this post.  

I won't if you like, but it's a little hard to read something and then not be able to say... anything. May I reply to anything at all? I do appreciate you sharing your story, and I'm sorry it worked out that way for you. 

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

Yes, I know, but I'm more ASD than she is (I always say spectrum-adjacent, and I think that's right) and know what ASD/ADHD girls look like, and she isn't it. 

https://www.socialthinking.com/Articles?name=social-thinking-social-communication-profile  Where do you fit in the social thinking profiles and where does she fit? 

I want to be very polite here, but I think you're probably pretty close to the situation and not an objective assessor. You also have limited experience, which makes you more likely to be biased or make assumptions based on experience rather than looking at data and clinical tools. 

You know this, but when you know one person with spectrum, you know one person with spectrum. I would caution you not to assume you are the correct person to diagnose or undiagnose your dc. You're very likely to get it wrong, simply because of your biases. You want someone who comes in and sees her fresh and objectively.

Also, have you thought of the illogic of what you're saying? ASD is not a mysterious thing. You either have a de novo mutation or a handed down set of mutations. Most of the time it's handed down, with some conglomeration of genes (SPARK  now has a massive list https://d2dxtcm9g2oro2.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/13153839/SPARK_gene_list_July2020.pdf ) that accumulate and present in varying degrees from ADHD to schizophrenia to ASD 1/2/3. So I'm sorry, but to be blunt when someone is saying they are kissing the spectrum they are saying they are carrying the genes. And if you carry, well you shared them. Your dd got some kind of mix of you and the bio father.

I think SPARK is saying only about 15% of participants with autism had flashy wow genes (single gene mutation, syndromal, boom). The remaining have all turned out to be this really involved family, handed down blue jeans, this is normal for how we roll, then it accumulated and the kids a few generations later started getting labels things.

47 minutes ago, Alte Veste Academy said:

was diagnosed with ASD at...18. He was diagnosed with ADHD in 9th grade.

This is so, so common, the sliding along. Totally agree that things become more obvious with time. And it does a COMPLETE DISSERVICE to girls to say they don't deserve diagnosis and identification and supports just because they happen to have girl strengths that MASK some of their challenges. 

That's why these disabilities are HIDDEN or INVISIBLE disabilities. And as women we need to defend the rights of women to know themselves, know how they feel, know what they want, to feel well, and to be self determinate. Under-identification of women on the spectrum is RAMPANT because we have a system that looks largely at how it presents as MALES.

I'm speaking to @Not_a_Number here, whom I assume is female, and I'm suggesting she think of this in an appropriately feminist way.

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, PeterPan said:

You're very likely to get it wrong, simply because of your biases. You want someone who comes in and sees her fresh and objectively.

I know it's impossible to ever convince people of this, but I'm brutally honest about people I know. I don't even know if it's a strength or a weakness. 

 

2 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

https://www.socialthinking.com/Articles?name=social-thinking-social-communication-profile  Where do you fit in the social thinking profiles and where does she fit? 

How would I evaluate this, exactly? Do you want me to just read the descriptions? 

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

And if you carry, well you shared them. Your dd got some kind of mix of you and the bio father.

Yes, I know. I've always known that and I've always looked for autistic traits in my kids for this reason. 

[PeterPan]

50 minutes ago, Alte Veste Academy said:

Probably around your DD9's age, my DS drew a picture of him and me as fire and ice. Something was wrong. I saw so many people here talk about evaluations and considered it, but I knew my kid. 

Oh yeah baby. People are like HOW DO YOU KNOW??? And we're like, cuz we've btdt, because people say stuff that doesn't pass the sniff test, because all the little teeny tiny things that don't make the DSM are happening. People who've btdt know what happens and know how it affects the dynamic.

This is for @Not_a_Number when I first started filling out spectrum forms for my ds, *I* did not give scores high enough to diagnose him. I kid you not. His current diagnosis is ASD2. That means anyone who is with him a significant amount of time figures it out. Read the descriptions of the support levels, lol. But in my world, his behaviors were NORMAL and comprehensible and I was just glossing them. I missed them, didn't see them.

My dh ended up filing out the forms that got him diagnosed and the psych had this nice little write-up about mom (who has had her own psych evals now btw) who had significantly discrepant scores.

So it's actually pretty telling if you're describing stuff and other people see it and you don't. You are NOT an accurate observer of your own dc, unfortunately. That's why we have the ADOS and psychs and more objective tools and ways to approach it. 

I have zero clue who needs what label here. I don't care, and I'm pretty go with the flow on stuff. Actually I think the DSM is idiotic. But it's a useful tool and I think that it's VERY IMPORTANT to empower our kids for self awareness and self determination. And frankly, for some kids psych evals WILL BE an essential part of that. Without that, they'll linger in the netherland of wondering, rather than having the clarity of an objective discussion.

[PeterPan]

2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I know it's impossible to ever convince people of this, but I'm brutally honest about people I know. I don't even know if it's a strength or a weakness. 

 

How would I evaluate this, exactly? Do you want me to just read the descriptions? 

Look, you said you think you're somewhere on the spectrum. Why would I doubt that you can be very blunt or b&w or incisive? LOL 

Yes, you just read through the profiles and see if any make sense to you. Then for kicks hand the doc to someone else and ask them what profiles *they* think fit people in your family. Again, there was a discrepancy between the way *I* saw myself and ds and the way *others* saw him/me. (I basically pegged us both one category lower than most others would say we were.) And, just for your trivia, I didn't see my dd AT ALL in there and she did see herself. 

We are not necessarily objective observers of ourselves. We're like the Hubble telescope, brilliant but needing glasses.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, PeterPan said:

So it's actually pretty telling if you're describing stuff and other people see it and you don't. You are NOT an accurate observer of your own dc, unfortunately. That's why we have the ADOS and psychs and more objective tools and ways to approach it. 

I know, but you don't know her, either. You've only seen my text-based descriptions. I've never had anyone flag her in real life, and she has been in many situations where she's observed for hours. Now, does that mean there's nothing there? No. But I am also not sure kids are easier to diagnose via their parents' description than they are by meeting them. 

Is there any test or any screener I could take at all where it'd be obvious whether it's worthwhile to evaluate her more? I could have someone else evaluate her if you don't trust me. I just don't feel like making her feel even worse right now, and doing lots of evaluations is not going to make her feel great. 

[PeterPan]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

I've never had anyone flag her in real life, and she has been in many situations where she's observed for hours.

That would be pretty common in the WISC, etc. profiles with a girl. Anything ASD1 or going that direction (ADHD, GAD, no diagnosis but issues that need support, etc.) could have that happen. It's only when you get to ASD2 that you expect people to definitely notice. And girls MASK. The entire diagnostic system is skewed toward boy presentation. 

[Melissa Louise]

8 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

This. My mother really did not have enough savings to even think about being retired, but what was a women with a cancer patient husband and 70 years old supposed to do? She had to retire. We help support her while putting kids through college simultaneously. I went back to work in order to make I all happen. Now my job, community fine arts program director with a non-profit, has been gutted due to covid. But, after many appeals, we managed to finally find a V.A. lawyer who was able to make the V.A. cough up a gob of money owed my dad for injuries he injuries incurred in the Air Force that he had to pay out of pocket to treat. The settlement was no generous given what he went thriugh, however, it has left a cushion so I don't feel quite so stressed. But, once some level of normal returns to society, I will be going back to work for a few more years.

I fell like Gen X, sandwiched between boomers many of whom thanks to modern medical advancements will live well beyond their money, and ridiculous costs of college and launching young adult children, will die younger than their parents because we will wear ourselves out crushed by the load. My mother's generation also seems to have much higher expectations for the level of personal care and attention they should receive vs. my grandmother's generation. My grandparents were really understanding and did everything possible to not make it harder. I can NOT say that about my mom and mother in law, and many people I know feel the same way about how their grandparents behaved in retirement compared to their parents. Not sure why this is. Possibly being post WWII boon in their formative and teen years maybe? 

My Boomer parents retired early, as homeowners with good pensions/super.* They achieved this with one full time income for much of my childhood. 

By early, I mean late 50's, though my Dad continued to work for fun for another decade, in a completely different industry. 

Their context is just so different to mine. Dad had no student loans, graduated into an economy with consistently rising wages, house prices were affordable to the average worker. Mum's p/t income, when she went back to work after 15 yrs at home, could go to 'extras'. They did not support either of us past 18 (me) and 19 (sis). So setting themselves up for old age has been relatively possible. 

Here, Gen X graduated into a recession with soaring house prices, a need for double incomes to service mortgages, with peak earning years being impacted by 2008 and following poor growth in wages. Some of us still managed to reach the same security as our parents, some of us didn't, but the difference isn't some lack of care for our own children. In fact,a lot of us are still supporting, or helping support, our own children as a direct result of the rise in house prices and now, a pandemic. 

Anyway, that's just how it is here, in my country. Nothing to do with being selfish, everything to do with prevailing economic conditions. 

[PeterPan]

4 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Is there any test or any screener I could take at all where it'd be obvious whether it's worthwhile to evaluate her more? I could have someone else evaluate her if you don't trust me. I just don't feel like making her feel even worse right now, and doing lots of evaluations is not going to make her feel great. 

Start a new thread. Seriously. 🙂 It's a fun topic and you'll love it. You'll have way more fun with this if you start a new thread. And that way I won't lose it, lol. 😄 

[Not_a_Number]

4 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Start a new thread. Seriously. 🙂 It's a fun topic and you'll love it. You'll have way more fun with this if you start a new thread. And that way I won't lose it, lol. 😄 

Will do, lol. I want to stop hijacking this one! 

[Carol in Cal.]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

I know, but you don't know her, either. You've only seen my text-based descriptions. I've never had anyone flag her in real life, and she has been in many situations where she's observed for hours. Now, does that mean there's nothing there? No. But I am also not sure kids are easier to diagnose via their parents' description than they are by meeting them. 

Is there any test or any screener I could take at all where it'd be obvious whether it's worthwhile to evaluate her more? I could have someone else evaluate her if you don't trust me. I just don't feel like making her feel even worse right now, and doing lots of evaluations is not going to make her feel great. 

It’s very hard to tell someone that you think there is something really different about their child.  I’ve had to do that once in my life, almost twice, and it just about slayed me.  I think you can’t necessarily conclude that the fact that no one has spoken up means they have not observed anything.

[Garga]

@Alte Veste Academy Thanks for posting. I won’t quote, but your story is similar to mine. 

I don’t regret homeschooling itself. They were precious years that I wouldn’t have traded for the world. I would have been miserable going to a job all day and being separated from my kids.

But I 100% regret not having my son tested, so I could have homeschooled him differently. I did him such a disservice. Things were such a struggle and I flailed about not being able to help him, because I never properly found out what his needs were. Why didn’t I just get him checked out? Why did I let it wait until he was 17 and falling into serious depression? I thought he was fine, but just a little quirky. I thought I would recognize all the signs for myself. (like Not A Number.)

Urgh.

But at the same time, my homeschooling years were hands down the most fulfilling years of my life. Hands down.

I managed to nab a job just 4 months ago, doing what I did before I homeschooled, and I’ve been able to pick up where I left off. Working is much, much easier than homeschooling ever was, but nowhere near as precious and worthy. 

——-

I don’t expect I’ll retire before 70-something. As a Gen Xer, I’ve known for a long time—at least 20 years—that I’ll have to work until I’m physically incapable of work. That’s just the world we live in.

Edited September 24, 2021 by Garga

[Not_a_Number]

37 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

It’s very hard to tell someone that you think there is something really different about their child.  I’ve had to do that once in my life, almost twice, and it just about slayed me.  I think you can’t necessarily conclude that the fact that no one has spoken up means they have not observed anything.

I've asked people. Last I checked, she scans as much MORE normal than she is, lol. Like, I've had a lot of descriptions of the "bright and normal" form, because she has a tendency to not make waves unless she's really excited about something. 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

I've asked people. Last I checked, she scans as much MORE normal than she is, lol. Like, I've had a lot of descriptions of the "bright and normal" form, because she has a tendency to not make waves unless she's really excited about something. 

Maybe something I should note is that I've always been on the lookout for ASD and things like that with DD9, due to the genetics. So I've always talked to her preschool teachers and her kindergarten teacher and her homeschooling class teachers about how she's doing socially, how she's interacting with other kids, etc. The report has always been that she plays well with other kids, that she seems sociable and get along well with others. That would generally be what I'd observe at the playground and during "homeschool recess" as well. 

[SeaConquest]

23 hours ago, PeterPan said:

That would be pretty common in the WISC, etc. profiles with a girl. Anything ASD1 or going that direction (ADHD, GAD, no diagnosis but issues that need support, etc.) could have that happen. It's only when you get to ASD2 that you expect people to definitely notice. And girls MASK. The entire diagnostic system is skewed toward boy presentation. 

Totally agree with this. I was not diagnosed with ADD -- inattentive type -- until I was in my 30s, and that was after numerous psych workups because I only ever went to see psychs for depression. I was finally appropriately diagnosed with bipolar (after being misdiagnosed with generalized depression for 10 years!) and my doctor at the intensive outpatient program at Cedars Sinai finally caught the ADD. It was only because I was seeing the guy numerous times per week for 6 months and he really got to know me that he could see past the masking and facade of a PG high-powered attorney who was dealing with a mental health crisis. I was floored when he told me, but the meds have helped me SO much. 

I also waited too long with Sacha to get him evaluated. It took another boardie with a PG kid (Jackie), who was teaching him in a class at our charter school to finally convince me. I was like, "He's so advanced. He's not really disabled in any way." But, Jackie knew. She had been there with her own daughter and I figured it couldn't hurt to get a complete neuropsych eval so I could get a complete picture. I am so glad that I listened to her. As you know from working with him, Sacha still has tons of EF issues, and he's a scatterbrain who cannot explain his work in writing problems (your DD likely does better work), but yet somehow manages to get blue on challenge problems and Alcumus each week, but the meds have been life-changing for him. On the days that I forget to give them to him, OMG, eto kashmar!!! Seriozno. 

So, I don't want to add to what likely feels like a pile on because I hope you know how much I care about you as a friend, but I do want to share that it took another mama of a PG kid to give me a gentle nudge to get an eval. It may be that you're right and she is a PG, but otherwise neurotypical kid. But, you might get helpful info from it regardless, and it doesn't sound like money is tight at the moment.  

[Not_a_Number]

6 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

So, I don't want to add to what likely feels like a pile on because I hope you know how much I care about you as a friend, but I do want to share that it took another mama of a PG kid to give me a gentle nudge to get an eval. It may be that you're right and she is a PG, but otherwise neurotypical kid. But, you might get helpful info from it regardless, and it doesn't sound like money is tight at the moment.  

I teach a really wide range of kids so I really do have some sense of the normal range. And DD9 is already pretty keyed up by everything going on. Plus, we had some really good conversations in the last few days that gave us some clarity about our issues last year.

I’m certainly not ruling it out post-pandemic, but right now, my priority is gonna be having fun with my kid and restoring the joy that got lost when we were trying to sort things out. 

Edited September 25, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[SeaConquest]

Regarding the main thread, I first want to say, how the heck did I not know that Melissa Louise was Stella all this time? Dang, I am so stupid sometimes. Thank you for starting this thread. I am so sorry that you are going through all of this. Sending you so much love and strength across the Pacific. 

This thread has been quite eye-opening and I am very thankful for it. We are beginning our 8th year of homeschooling, and my boys are in 7th and 2nd, so still very much in the thick of it. I am turning 47 in November and a few years ago, I decided that, even though I have a law degree, I wanted to go back to school to become a nurse practitioner. It seemed completely nuts to many, but, in between my severe bouts of depression, I have these spurts of manic narcissism where I truly believe that I can do anything. They don't call bipolar the CEO's disease for nothing. 😉 I just finished nursing school with a second bachelors in June and am applying to grad school in the fall.

So, our homeschool has morphed into a lot of outsourcing over the past few years, as I have transitioned back to school, and I have struggled with a lot of guilt about that fact. But this thread is really helping me to see that I may not be doing my family the huge disservice that it feels like at times. So again, thank you to those sharing the wisdom of experience in this thread. I have learned so much from the veteran homeschoolers here, and I continue to do so. You have given me much food for thought. 

[Melissa Louise]

1 hour ago, SeaConquest said:

Regarding the main thread, I first want to say, how the heck did I not know that Melissa Louise was Stella all this time? Dang, I am so stupid sometimes. Thank you for starting this thread. I am so sorry that you are going through all of this. Sending you so much love and strength across the Pacific. 

This thread has been quite eye-opening and I am very thankful for it. We are beginning our 8th year of homeschooling, and my boys are in 7th and 2nd, so still very much in the thick of it. I am turning 47 in November and a few years ago, I decided that, even though I have a law degree, I wanted to go back to school to become a nurse practitioner. It seemed completely nuts to many, but, in between my severe bouts of depression, I have these spurts of manic narcissism where I truly believe that I can do anything. They don't call bipolar the CEO's disease for nothing. 😉 I just finished nursing school with a second bachelors in June and am applying to grad school in the fall.

So, our homeschool has morphed into a lot of outsourcing over the past few years, as I have transitioned back to school, and I have struggled with a lot of guilt about that fact. But this thread is really helping me to see that I may not be doing my family the huge disservice that it feels like at times. So again, thank you to those sharing the wisdom of experience in this thread. I have learned so much from the veteran homeschoolers here, and I continue to do so. You have given me much food for thought. 

Ooh, don't feel guilty! Outsourcing is valid. 

This thread really helped me refine a lot of my thinking. I don't regret homeschooling, but I do find the lack of recognition that I gave it my everything, and lack of shared memories, difficult. 

I've decided to try out the first term of my Early Childhood degree - it sounds good - emphasis on sustainability and connection with Land - but I'll get a better idea once I've done a subject. Paying upfront so I don't feel like it's adding onto debt. 

I connected with an academic who is a wonderful woman with much experience in the writing/academia space, and that clarified for me that I don't need the Masters and there are other options. We are meeting up after lockdown. 

My friends are setting up some stuff to help me better sell some writing products I've designed. 

 

[freesia]

14 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Ooh, don't feel guilty! Outsourcing is valid. 

This thread really helped me refine a lot of my thinking. I don't regret homeschooling, but I do find the lack of recognition that I gave it my everything, and lack of shared memories, difficult. 

I've decided to try out the first term of my Early Childhood degree - it sounds good - emphasis on sustainability and connection with Land - but I'll get a better idea once I've done a subject. Paying upfront so I don't feel like it's adding onto debt. 

I connected with an academic who is a wonderful woman with much experience in the writing/academia space, and that clarified for me that I don't need the Masters and there are other options. We are meeting up after lockdown. 

My friends are setting up some stuff to help me better sell some writing products I've designed. 

 

That all sounds great. That’s actually a lot you’ve done. 

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, freesia said:

That all sounds great. That’s actually a lot you’ve done. 

Thank you! It is.