Anyone else regret homeschooling?

[ktgrok]

11 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I actually don't think you get it. NOT taking her through algebra would have taken far more effort and frustration. She's my kid who'd throw tantrums when faced with 5 double digit addition problems but who would then happily convert 10 different numbers from binary to decimal (which, I'll note, involved something like 50 double digit addition problems! But they felt MOTIVATED, and that made a huge difference to her.) 

I wasn't ever TRYING to get my gifted child through algebra. I got her through algebra because she ASKED me to learn algebra at the beginning of grade 2. I really don't want to know what would have happened if I refused. 

The things she's having trouble with are things like "checking whether the word she copied is the same as the word below the line" and "bothering to check the number of days in February." She makes LESS effort on stuff that's "too easy." She wants things to be interesting. Grade level math is the opposite of interesting! 

Ah, gotcha. My ADHD brain sympathizes with her a bit, lol. But I see what you are saying now, it isn't the advanced part you had to drag her through, but the mundane check your work stuff. Maybe the reality of a bad grade in a classroom will help with that (I hope so!) but in the meantime, I can say that one thing I found that works for kids who hate rechecking or fixing stuff after the fact is to catch them AS they make the mistake and have them fix it before moving on. Doesn't work for everything, but for the stuff you can do it with, it works really really well. Has to do with learning theory - for a consequence to make sense it has to happen within seconds. Having to go back and fix something 20 minutes or a day later makes no sense to some people who really rely on immediacy - usually big picture thinkers. Because they subconsciously realize it won't actually help them, they see no point in doing it. It's busy work. (the greatest evil to mankind!). But, if when they make the silly copying mistake you have them fix it before going on to the next word that actually DOES make sense to the brain, and they are much more likely to be careful with the next words they copy. Consequence has to be immediate for it to change behavior organically. 

Not an solution to everything, but might help short term with a few things. 

And I get that if she's going to have to be upset about this stuff no matter what, it might as well be you sympathizing and the teacher forcing the issue rather than you being the bad guy.  Especially if you are the one making the problems - one reason we had to use actual planned curriculum with some of mine was so I could point to the teacher manual and let it be the "bad guy", not me, lol. 

Edited September 22, 2021 by ktgrok

[fairfarmhand]

30 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

A couple I know recently “separated”, but continue cohabitating ‘cuz $$$. 2 careers, kids in school. 
Obviously, more money is more than no money, but these issues aren’t always homeschool/sahp-caused.

Had I been working, perhaps I’d be tied up in a more expensive home and higher overall bills if a bad thing were to happen. I’ll never know.

Yes, you are right.

Which is why I do my best to avoid dwelling in regret land. Because there's no way of knowing how it would have all played out if I'd made a different decision all those years ago.

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, ktgrok said:

Ah, gotcha. My ADHD brain sympathizes with her a bit, lol. But I see what you are saying now, it isn't the advanced part you had to drag her through, but the mundane check your work stuff. Maybe the reality of a bad grade in a classroom will help with that (I hope so!) but in the meantime, I can say that one thing I found that works for kids who hate rechecking or fixing stuff after the fact is to catch them AS they make the mistake and have them fix it before moving on.

First of all, if I do this, then I'll again be putting in all the energy into this. Plus, if I do this, she'll stop checking anything at all. I've been there, done that, and got the T-shirt. 

Furthermore, if I check the easy stuff for her as she goes, she'll start refusing to do the harder stuff, too. Like, she'll start refusing to think entirely, and then we'll have insane stand-offs where I ask her to please consider what the grammar might look like in this case, and she'll simply refuse. 

 

5 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

And I get that if she's going to have to be upset about this stuff no matter what, it might as well be you sympathizing and the teacher forcing the issue rather than you being the bad guy.  Especially if you are the one making the problems - one reason we had to use actual planned curriculum with some of mine was so I could point to the teacher manual and let it be the "bad guy", not me, lol. 

Right. Exactly. And frankly, at the point I'm going to have to buy curriculum and let someone else be that bad guy, I don't know that I'd rather it be a book and not a teacher. 

Psychologically, she's not in a good place to be able to work well for me right now. That could change, I dunno. But I can't possibly be the one to change that. That's on her. 

[Ausmumof3]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

When my youngest was four, we took a trip to Niagara Falls. Stayed there for a week; could look right out the window and into one of the seven wonders of the natural world. What ds remembers most about that trip? That the hotel TV had Mario Kart, which we did not have at home. 🙄

I did have pictures of the falls posted on our homeschool wall for several years, though. My proof we did cool things. 

My family did an NZ trip when I was four and I remembered nothing but when I went back to same place as an adult i remembered it all.

 

[ktgrok]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

First of all, if I do this, then I'll again be putting in all the energy into this. Plus, if I do this, she'll stop checking anything at all. I've been there, done that, and got the T-shirt. 

Furthermore, if I check the easy stuff for her as she goes, she'll start refusing to do the harder stuff, too. Like, she'll start refusing to think entirely, and then we'll have insane stand-offs where I ask her to please consider what the grammar might look like in this case, and she'll simply refuse. 

 

Right. Exactly. And frankly, at the point I'm going to have to buy curriculum and let someone else be that bad guy, I don't know that I'd rather it be a book and not a teacher. 

Psychologically, she's not in a good place to be able to work well for me right now. That could change, I dunno. But I can't possibly be the one to change that. That's on her. 

Oh, the suggestion about immediately giving feedback was to help correct bad habits, with the idea that they put more care into getting it right the first time. Getting it wrong (you don't tell them the answer, just tell them it is wrong or they made a mistake) inspires trying harder on the next one. Finding out an hour later that you got a bunch wrong doesn't - that's not how brains work. 

But if it isn't about any of that, just that she's chosen this area to be where she fights you, because she can, then ignore me, lol. 

[EmilyGF]

3 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

My family did an NZ trip when I was four and I remembered nothing but when I went back to same place as an adult i remembered it all.

 

We spent 3 months in Israel. One of my kids was 3. She frequently asks to go back to Israel because the bus driver in Israel gave her a peppermint candy, LOL. For her, Israel will always be the place where she got candy on the bus!

Emily

[marbel]

14 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

My family did an NZ trip when I was four and I remembered nothing but when I went back to same place as an adult i remembered it all.

 

Yeah, it can be surprising what kids remember. 

We went to England and Scotland when my kids were 6 and 8. We still talk about it pretty regularly - right now it looks like that was the trip of all our lifetimes though I hope my kids have bigger and better travel ahead of them - but it's funny what they remember vs what I remember. A lot of it has faded but if they go back, they will remember. Plus we have photos. 

One of my kids told me that I had failed by not talking about dating and relationships when they were in their teens. I was stunned. I tried to talk about it! Kids didn't want to talk about it! I talked anyway... they didn't listen. Or they did because they appear to be in healthy relationships now. 

ETA: re: that trip: one remembers strongly that I refused to buy the beautifully-wrapped, crazy expensive chocolates at Kensington Palace because I knew under that gorgeous wrapping was sub-par chocolate. We spent the money on a lovely tea in the garden. But the missed chocolates.... oy.

Edited September 22, 2021 by marbel

[Not_a_Number]

8 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Oh, the suggestion about immediately giving feedback was to help correct bad habits, with the idea that they put more care into getting it right the first time. Getting it wrong (you don't tell them the answer, just tell them it is wrong or they made a mistake) inspires trying harder on the next one. Finding out an hour later that you got a bunch wrong doesn't - that's not how brains work. 

But if it isn't about any of that, just that she's chosen this area to be where she fights you, because she can, then ignore me, lol. 

Yeah, we did a lot of immediate correction previously, and it did not serve as any kind of inspiration for next time, lol.

[Jenny in Florida]

29 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I actually don't think you get it. NOT taking her through algebra would have taken far more effort and frustration. She's my kid who'd throw tantrums when faced with 5 double digit addition problems but who would then happily convert 10 different numbers from binary to decimal (which, I'll note, involved something like 50 double digit addition problems! But they felt MOTIVATED, and that made a huge difference to her.) 

I wasn't ever TRYING to get my gifted child through algebra. I got her through algebra because she ASKED me to learn algebra at the beginning of grade 2. I really don't want to know what would have happened if I refused. 

The things she's having trouble with are things like "checking whether the word she copied is the same as the word below the line" and "bothering to check the number of days in February." She makes LESS effort on stuff that's "too easy." She wants things to be interesting. Grade level math is the opposite of interesting! 

For what it's worth: I absolutely, completely get it.

I vividly remember so many well-meaning people "gently suggesting" to me that maybe I shouldn't "push" my daughter so hard, academically. All I could do was laugh ruefully, because I was so far from pushing that all I could do was hold onto her coattails . . . as long as she was interested in what she was doing. The "check your work" and "write legibly" stuff was nightmarish for a while, though.

[El...]

12 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

Well, seven pages later, I've worked out what to do.

Going to use the term break to go through the homeschool photos, choose my faves, and make and hang a collage of them. The kids may have no memories but damn, I'm gonna display the evidence 🙂 

I didn't realise how much the lack of recognition  - hey guys, we did this thing, put a lot into it! - was bothering me. 

I LOVE this idea. Brilliant!

[Dmmetler]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

Honestly, at the point that I'm not teaching her and she's doing online classes, I'm not seeing a huge benefit in keeping her home. We have lots of good schools around here in NYC and we can thankfully afford a private school if need be. 

Plus, DD9 actually wants me to teach her 😛 . She consistently ranks the things I teach her as her favorites -- she does have other subjects she takes, but she always says that she likes math and Russian the best.

I dunno. We'll figure it out. I'm just kind of at the end of my rope with her. 

I do think being in NYC changes the picture a lot. We had NO good school options here, so it was either homeschool or accept being stuck in grade level with little or no options for acceleration before high school, and then high pressure AP or IB schools with an attitude of "sleep is for wimps" that believed rigor was the amount of work, not level. 

[Dmmetler]

35 minutes ago, Jenny in Florida said:

For what it's worth: I absolutely, completely get it.

I vividly remember so many well-meaning people "gently suggesting" to me that maybe I shouldn't "push" my daughter so hard, academically. All I could do was laugh ruefully, because I was so far from pushing that all I could do was hold onto her coattails . . . as long as she was interested in what she was doing. The "check your work" and "write legibly" stuff was nightmarish for a while, though.

One thing that I have realized is that if my kids' mind is not busy, anxiety takes over. So, a lot of he drive came from the need to have that focus. One of the hardest things last year was too much free time-the kind of schedule that had worked in the past with lots of extracurriculars was not enough. This year, on a campus with a lot going on, a full time academic load (part upper division, part grad, part first year courses for the specific research program), it's enough again, and the difference is night and day. 

 

So, it was mostly hang on tight and don't look down-ans accept that those asynchronous parts would catch up. 

 

I admit to wondering, as happy as my kid now is on campus, if maybe jumping to MB earlier would have been a good choice-but until COVID, there was enough with sports plus homeschool extracurriculars, plus teaching online, plus college classes plus homeschool/online stuff to keep the brain busy, and the anxiety over leaving home was really strong. It took a year of too little and boredom to make leaving look more like an escape and less a loss. 

[Not_a_Number]

43 minutes ago, Jenny in Florida said:

For what it's worth: I absolutely, completely get it.

I vividly remember so many well-meaning people "gently suggesting" to me that maybe I shouldn't "push" my daughter so hard, academically. All I could do was laugh ruefully, because I was so far from pushing that all I could do was hold onto her coattails . . . as long as she was interested in what she was doing. The "check your work" and "write legibly" stuff was nightmarish for a while, though.

Right. That's exactly where we are. She wanted to learn how to use similar triangles to figure out areas on the AMC 8, and she HAS. You know what she's screwing up, though? Remembering to divide by 2 and putting in the effort to actually submit correct stuff!! 

 

9 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

I do think being in NYC changes the picture a lot. We had NO good school options here, so it was either homeschool or accept being stuck in grade level with little or no options for acceleration before high school, and then high pressure AP or IB schools with an attitude of "sleep is for wimps" that believed rigor was the amount of work, not level. 

Right. We're simply not in that situation. We can absolutely find a good school for her. Will it be as good as me teaching her? Academically, no. But emotionally, me being the bad guy all the time is incredibly wearing. 

 

[ktgrok]

56 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Yeah, we did a lot of immediate correction previously, and it did not serve as any kind of inspiration for next time, lol.

Gotcha 

7 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Right. We're simply not in that situation. We can absolutely find a good school for her. Will it be as good as me teaching her? Academically, no. But emotionally, me being the bad guy all the time is incredibly wearing. 

 

Right - at first I thought you were dealing with it being a fight because you were trying to push her to work to her ability. But it's not that, it is the equivalent of dealing with a kid who puts their kids next to the hamper instead of in the hamper. Some of that may come with maturity, but in the meanwhile someone else can tell her to put her mathematical clothes in the hamper, and she will see that all the other kids have to put their mathematical clothes in the hamper as well. And then maybe you two can have fun doing some math puzzles together without worrying about showing work or whatever. 

 

Edited September 22, 2021 by ktgrok

[SKL]

3 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

Things aren't any more harmonious in other stuff, lol. She just can't seem to make herself put in adequate effort. 

Plus, I've been letting her pick everything anyway! Together, we decided our goal this year was her doing well on the AMC 8, and what she's been doing is literally picking the topics that she wants to work on each day. I write her questions on HER topics, then she does a super-sloppy job with minimal effort and no checking, then half the time she refuses to fix things if I hand things back to her. 

Same thing with Russian. She picks the kind of work she does, then she won't look it over to correct it. At all. Or we'll be doing conversation and she doesn't even try to think about my questions when I ask her stuff. 

And those are the ONLY subjects she currently has output in.

....

Illogical as it may seem, this sounds to me like perfectionism.

[Not_a_Number]

44 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Gotcha 

Right - at first I thought you were dealing with it being a fight because you were trying to push her to work to her ability. But it's not that, it is the equivalent of dealing with a kid who puts their kids next to the hamper instead of in the hamper. Some of that may come with maturity, but in the meanwhile someone else can tell her to put her mathematical clothes in the hamper, and she will see that all the other kids have to put their mathematical clothes in the hamper as well. And then maybe you two can have fun doing some math puzzles together without worrying about showing work or whatever. 

Right. Exactly. 

I don't need to push her to work to her ability, because she far prefers to work to her ability already. What she has trouble with is basically everything else: consistent effort, checking her work, having a decent attitude towards me as teacher. (Like, me asking her to fix things and her refusing for 2 hours straight is NOT a reasonable attitude. It just isn't.) 

Frankly, I think I kind of screwed up with her. When we pulled her out after kindergarten, it was all new and exciting and I had no idea how long I'd do it, so I didn't set up good ground rules for acceptable behavior. She got away with murder for far too long (and DH wasn't supportive when I complained about her behavior, which was also really inconvenient and made me doubt myself.) So then we found ourselves in the middle of grade 2 with a kid who would sometimes totally refuse to do work, and there was no way to budge her. And I spent quite a while trying to work around her... and it just doesn't work. She needs to cooperate for homeschooling to work and she simply doesn't cooperate. 

At this point, I told her we'll probably send her to school. She's sounding determined to show me that she can do better, and I'm curious what that'll look like -- I'm not encouraging her, and I told her chances are she can't budge me, but it's possible she'll find that much more motivating than me saying that she COULD convince me, lol. We'll see. We can't send her this instant, anyway, and I'm not sending her before she's vaccinated... so who knows what'll happen. All I know is I'm done with our current set-up in which she refuses to do what she's told day in and day out. 

Edited September 22, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[ktgrok]

6 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Right. Exactly. 

I don't need to push her to work to her ability, because she far prefers to work to her ability already. What she has trouble with is basically everything else: consistent effort, checking her work, having a decent attitude towards me as teacher. (Like, me asking her to fix things and her refusing for 2 hours straight is NOT a reasonable attitude. It just isn't.) 

Frankly, I think I kind of screwed up with her. When we pulled her out after kindergarten, it was all new and exciting and I had no idea how long I'd do it, so I didn't set up good ground rules for acceptable behavior. She got away with murder for far too long (and DH wasn't supportive when I complained about her behavior, which was also really inconvenient and made me doubt myself.) So then we found ourselves in the middle of grade 2 with a kid who would sometimes totally refuse to do work, and there was no way to budge her. And I spent quite a while trying to work around her... and it just doesn't work. She needs to cooperate for homeschooling to work and she simply doesn't cooperate. 

At this point, I told her we'll probably send her to school. She's sounding determined to show me that she can do better, and I'm curious what that'll look like -- I'm not encouraging her, and I told her chances are she can't budge me, but it's possible she'll find that much more motivating than me saying that she COULD convince me, lol. We'll see. We can't send her this instance, anyway, and I'm not sending her before she's vaccinated... so who knows what'll happen. All I know is I'm done with our current set-up in which she refuses to do what she's told day in and day out. 

I had a week or so where I only graded my son's math on his attitude and willingness. 

[ktgrok]

Oh, if she WANTS to try to do better, would it help to make a schooling covenant with her - a written document of what you expect from her as well as your responsibilities as the teacher (not saying you are not already living up to your end, but to put it in writing to show HER that this requires effort on both parts). She's so smart and mature maybe something formal, similar to what schools do first day, would help? Heck, even print out bullet points to put on the front of her binder or on the wall, lol? "In this house, we correct our work in a timely manner" kind of thing? Or in covenant form, "The teacher will grade all work within x amount of time. The student will correct any errors within X amount of time".  So when she is slacking, you can point to the written thing, and make it the bad guy, not you. Similar with using lists for assignments. The list says this, so it must be done. 

Edited September 22, 2021 by ktgrok

[Not_a_Number]

15 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I had a week or so where I only graded my son's math on his attitude and willingness. 

She'd flunk, lol. 

 

11 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Oh, if she WANTS to try to do better, would it help to make a schooling covenant with her - a written document of what you expect from her as well as your responsibilities as the teacher (not saying you are not already living up to your end, but to put it in writing to show HER that this requires effort on both parts). She's so smart and mature maybe something formal, similar to what schools do first day, would help? Heck, even print out bullet points to put on the front of her binder or on the wall, lol? "In this house, we correct our work in a timely manner" kind of thing? Or in covenant form, "The teacher will grade all work within x amount of time. The student will correct any errors within X amount of time".  So when she is slacking, you can point to the written thing, and make it the bad guy, not you. Similar with using lists for assignments. The list says this, so it must be done. 

Oh gosh, we've done all that. You have no idea how many things we've tried. We had posted responsibilities. And small penalties for not meeting them. And not having small penalties. And reminders after the small penalties. And reminders without penalties. None of it made a bit of difference past the 3 days in which it felt new and exciting. 

DD9 is a clone of my DH, lol. He's also terrible at making changes and will constantly try to get the maximum possible leniency out of a situation, and that's what she does. When we had a maximum of 9 penalties that she could have per day, she wouldn't even TRY until the 8th penalty 😛 .  She's not very self-aware (like DH) and she's not easy to motivate (like DH) except with stuff that's innately interesting or purely structural. 

[ktgrok]

4 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

 

DD9 is a clone of my DH, lol. He's also terrible at making changes and will constantly try to get the maximum possible leniency out of a situation, and that's what she does. When we had a maximum of 9 penalties that she could have per day, she wouldn't even TRY until the 8th penalty 😛 .  She's not very self-aware (like DH) and she's not easy to motivate (like DH) except with stuff that's innately interesting or purely structural. 

Oh yes, the give an inch, take a mile type. I have one of those. My condolences, lol. 

I will say maturity helps a lot with the brain's processing of cause and effect, so she may change over time. Mine it took until at least age 13.  Just gotta survive until then without pulling your hair out.

[Not_a_Number]

6 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

She'd flunk, lol. 

 

Oh gosh, we've done all that. You have no idea how many things we've tried. We had posted responsibilities. And small penalties for not meeting them. And not having small penalties. And reminders after the small penalties. And reminders without penalties. None of it made a bit of difference past the 3 days in which it felt new and exciting. 

DD9 is a clone of my DH, lol. He's also terrible at making changes and will constantly try to get the maximum possible leniency out of a situation, and that's what she does. When we had a maximum of 9 penalties that she could have per day, she wouldn't even TRY until the 8th penalty 😛 .  She's not very self-aware (like DH) and she's not easy to motivate (like DH) except with stuff that's innately interesting or purely structural. 

The one thing we've done that was a real help was to have me be a "fake teacher" named Miss Swamp, LOL. Honestly, that made a serious difference and turned "completely work refusal with sulking included" into "half-assed work that's at least done." And the kids stopped constantly interrupting each other during reading. 

[Dmmetler]

My guess is that peer pressure in a school setting might help. Sometimes other kids make a difference. 

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Oh yes, the give an inch, take a mile type. I have one of those. My condolences, lol. 

I will say maturity helps a lot with the brain's processing of cause and effect, so she may change over time. Mine it took until at least age 13.  Just gotta survive until then without pulling your hair out.

Right. And I'm not averse to pulling her back out of school, either! She's a very academically-motivated kiddo. If she matures a bit and makes it possible to homeschool her again, I'm very open to it. I just want some peace in the darn house!!! 

Edited September 22, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Dmmetler said:

My guess is that peer pressure in a school setting might help. Sometimes other kids make a difference. 

Yes. It does. I've had her in MY classroom before and she behaved very differently. 

[ktgrok]

27 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Right. And I'm not averse to pulling her back out of school, either! She's a very academically-motivated kiddo. If she matures a bit and makes it possible to homeschool her again, I'm very open to it. I just want some peace in the darn house!!! 

And that's totally fair. If actual school had worked fo7r my oldest, I'd have done it to avoid the chaos the other kids had to witness. Unfortunately, he just transferred his obstinancy to other things, including homework, his room, the color of the sky, etc. He still fought with me constantly, AND we all got less sleep due to him having to be there at 7:15 am, and he's a night owl. 

 

[BlsdMama]

3 hours ago, regentrude said:

Thanks for saying this. Sometimes the ' never too late" mindset borders dangerously on toxic positivity. It's simply not true. My dream was to be an opera singer; that ship had sailed completely decades ago, because you don't even get into conservatory as a vocal performer after a certain age. I will also never have a tenure track position, it's not possible to suddenly begin a research program after 25 years away from active research. I have zero chance of  becoming an elite climber.

I find it important to acknowledge that some choices close doors permanently, and that it's OK to mourn the missed opportunities. That doesn't mean rewriting history and dismissing those choices. But it's OK to be sad. No, sometimes it is indeed too late, and all we can do is make our peace with that.

You aren’t wrong in that there are times when, “It’s never too late,” really just equates to muffled speaking with one’s head in the sand. *The rest is not to Regentrude, but to the forum as we tend to be a critical and skeptical lot. For good reason too, as it has served us well over the years being “look deeper” rather than happy shallow acceptance. But I might suggest that this same skepticism does not necessarily serve us well 50+ as it did in our 20s & 30s. 
 

I think I possess the credentials to infer it is not so in this scenario. In my post I did say some of us (namely me) do not have another 25 years. Hell, it’s doubtful I have five. But I’m going to say this because some of you don’t understand yet. 
 

Do you know how Melissa asked if 2003 Quill would have listened to 2021 Quill? And we all silently nodded. Why? Because at 25 we “knew what we knew” and armed with that limited knowledge, marched forth, being certain in our convictions and not being turned aside. 
 

This. Is. That. 
 

Will the 75 year old woman laugh at the jaded 50 year old version of herself who, in skepticism, didn’t think she was worth investing in any longer because the ROI didn’t seem plausible?

What if, in retrospect, it was a financial break even but you ended up in a place that brought you relationships and joy for 15 years?

The 25 year old versions of ourselves may have been shortsighted, but the 45-50 year old versions of ourselves are no better, having learned little in some cases, and believing the path we are currently on is the way. And the old women in the room smile behind their hands. 
 

I asked my grandfather, 90 at the time, why he bothered to get up early each morning, abstain from treats, and exercise. It seemed as though he was in a time he could just let his life guidelines relax a bit to enjoy some short sighted fun. He said they would prevent him from moving, doing, living his best life. 
 

If you hear, in my previous posted, gilded optimism, I’m grateful. Perhaps I’ve retained some after all. I am the same woman who has carefully weighed choosing medical suicide because of the future that seems certain. My legs are barely of use. I’ve lost 65% of my strength in arms. My neck and back are gone by half and my voice is going. It appears, surface deep, pointless to continue homeschooling and, obviously, it is taxing to a mind, body, and condition that is made all the worse by stress. Here, at the end of my life, I find women my age tend to be overly skeptical. They’ve lived what they feel to be the entire lives and feel they are nearing the end. I know, absolutely know, that another 25 years or more is an entire lifetime! After all, that is the span of time that passed from age 0-25, then again from 25-50.... Except now women are armed with knowledge, experience, and fortitude. No, it is not an easy thing to start something new. But it is a worthwhile thing, to persevere, to continue learning, to do brave things. 
 

I remember when Sarah Mackenzie began Read Aloud Revival and so many smirked... After all, what did she know? Young and wide eyed, I think her oldest was in fifth grade, though I do not remember clearly. I was also a bit skeptical but I found myself in love with her podcast and for good reason! I was growing weary in this season and her wholehearted enthusiasm reminded me I had more work to do and that it could be a joy! I needed that youthful positivity to snap me out of my wearied acceptance of, “This is my lot.” Thank God for the optimists... not the blind Polly Anna’s, but those who come alongside to encourage the “next thing.” Life is not what you make of it. There are times when you are dealt a mighty blow, things you have no power to control or quell... Obviously I know that. But to accept defeat when it is “merely” imminent rather fight the good fight? What a shame and a loss. No, I am no Pollyanna but perhaps I have insight some have not yet reached?

[Terabith]

2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

Psychologically, she's not in a good place to be able to work well for me right now. That could change, I dunno. But I can't possibly be the one to change that. That's on her. 

Send her to school.  Give it a try for a year or two.  It doesn't have to be a forever commitment.  But you guys have been struggling a lot for a long time.  I really don't think it's healthy for either of you to be banging heads like you are.  And I really do think that the experience of an outside teacher and peers will motivate her to learn how to deal with this.  I sent my oldest to school at nine, and they came home from school one day and said, "I never knew that other kids had to learn things, too."  

They had been fighting and fighting me and been furious with me for making them learn things, because they genuinely, 100% believed that other kids just KNEW stuff.  They thought I had been torturing them in a personal way.  The idea that everyone had to learn and make mistakes, despite me saying it a hundred times a day, had never really occurred to them.  

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Send her to school.  Give it a try for a year or two.  It doesn't have to be a forever commitment.  But you guys have been struggling a lot for a long time.  I really don't think it's healthy for either of you to be banging heads like you are.  And I really do think that the experience of an outside teacher and peers will motivate her to learn how to deal with this.  I sent my oldest to school at nine, and they came home from school one day and said, "I never knew that other kids had to learn things, too."  

They had been fighting and fighting me and been furious with me for making them learn things, because they genuinely, 100% believed that other kids just KNEW stuff.  They thought I had been torturing them in a personal way.  The idea that everyone had to learn and make mistakes, despite me saying it a hundred times a day, had never really occurred to them.  

The tricky thing is that she would far prefer to be homeschooled. Like, a lot. 

You're right that this isn't healthy. I'm not doing whatever this is anymore. I'm firmly done with it. 

[Terabith]

3 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

The tricky thing is that she would far prefer to be homeschooled. Like, a lot. 

You're right that this isn't healthy. I'm not doing whatever this is anymore. I'm firmly done with it. 

I think she can't imagine what life would be like without that conflict.  The trick is you can't transfer that conflict to things like homework.  School has to be 100% her responsibility.  

[HS Mom in NC]

17 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

But I know lots of homeschoolers (including me) who struggle with feeling responsible for their kids attitudes and /or feelings on homeschooling. 

Yeah, that's something we veterans need to address more, that is if newer homeschooolers want to listen to people who've BTDT.  I blame the choices in speakers and focus of homeschool convention workshops. I think some well known homeschoolers are idealistic Baby Boomers and not enough of cynical Gen Xers. Newbies and some veterans seem almost offended when I unapologetically state that I'm perfectly willing to incorporate things that I really think would be of interest to my kids and that are fun or engaging compared to typical lecture, textbook, worksheets, and summaries, but if the kids don't respond accordingly I'm not going to take it personally or fret about it. I'm realistic enough to see I'll have to shift gears and demand they do it correctly anyway whether they like it or not. At that point, their enjoyment is not.my.problem. They had the chance to engage willingly, now it will be consequence oriented enforcement.  Get it done by the deadline or you lose all privileges (screens, socializing, free time, etc.)

I think Millennial homeschoolers as a group are particularly susceptible to guilt about it because they grew up in an era when children were special and education had been infiltrated by an edutainment mindset which is the perpetuation of the lie that kids can't learn unless they're enjoying it. Seriously, I hear people say this out loud on a regular basis and am astonished by how far from reality that thinking is. Millennials on the whole are more prone to buying into an idealistic mindset (much like their Boomer parents) so they're much more easily discouraged thinking of themselves as failures to homeschooling when their ideals aren't lived reality.  In other words, they'll question themselves as being cut out for homeschooling instead of questioning the ideal that successful homeschooling means the kids love learning and will be cooperative and even enthusiastic. That's not to say homeschooling will work for everyone, or that every homeschooling family dynamic is overall healthy. It's saying their questioning and assessment are far too narrow in focus.

As a Gen Xer, I didn't live in that world where kids were special. Yet we managed to learn quite a lot in a crappy public school spite of not enjoying school.  I was motivated to learn by reading widely outside of school from a young age, which wasn't something school or my family instilled in me. I learned what I needed to in school to get my high school diploma. Many of us learned what we needed to get the degree in college so we could support ourselves.  Those were hoops to jump through, not necessarily formative experiences for growing ourselves as people.   Gen X as a whole is just far more pragmatic and realistic.  If the ideal isn't a lived reality, we're willing to tweak things even if it means stepping away from our ideals and adopting new ones. We're willing to question ideals and ourselves because we lived in an environment that creates cynicism. A certain amount of cynicism is essential to successfully homeschool because you have to be willing to make appropriate adjustments as needed.

That's why when newbies ask me what they should take to homeschool conventions, my answer has always been, "Discernment." Discernment means being able to separate what's true/useful/applicable from what's bs.

[SKL]

I also have one kid who will not learn from me, and pretty much never would.  You would not believe how stubborn she could be (unless you had one just like her, LOL).  At school she does the minimum to keep me off her back.  I decided long ago that I was not going to grind my teeth down to stubs because my advanced kid isn't as advanced as she could be.

And she is why I would never dare to homeschool, LOL.  Well, I did it for half a year when she was 4yo, but that was it.

My other kid was/is way easier to manage as far as "making" her do what I want.  She tells me I'm better at teaching her than anyone else.  But since 7th or 8th grade, she has realized that many if not most kids don't have to do "mom work," and she doesn't realize the benefits to her beyond just getting the school homework done right and squeaking by on the tests.  So even if I'd homeschooled her, I could see where switching to b&m at middle school might have been needed.  There does seem to be a lot of motivation from common group expectations by mid-late elementary school.  [And also, the sass.  The illogical t(w)een brain that thinks everything moms do is designed to harm or aggravate our kids.  I get enough of it outside of school hours, thanks.  :)]

Edited September 22, 2021 by SKL

[Porridge]

9 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

The tricky thing is that she would far prefer to be homeschooled. Like, a lot. 

You're right that this isn't healthy. I'm not doing whatever this is anymore. I'm firmly done with it. 

Hugs, @Not_a_Number. It does seem like it's been very hard for you. Are there ways you can mitigate in the meantime, since you don't plan to send her back to school immediately? Could DH take a more active role in homeschooling DD9 until brick and mortar school is a real option?  Do you need time or space for "self-care?"

 

[Not_a_Number]

17 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I think she can't imagine what life would be like without that conflict.  The trick is you can't transfer that conflict to things like homework.  School has to be 100% her responsibility.  

Oh, she totally can, lol. We've taken long breaks which have mostly had very little conflict. Plus she did go to school in kindergarten, which she specifically didn't like and asked to not go to anymore.

I don't think I'd let school be 100% her responsibility, but she responds very differently when I'm not the bad guy, anyway. We've never had real trouble about work she's gotten from other people, even when I've had to sit on her. 

And also, as for conflict, it's not like there's daily conflict. Lots of days are just fine from her perspective. I just post about it more when we argue. 

[Not_a_Number]

11 minutes ago, WTM said:

Hugs, @Not_a_Number. It does seem like it's been very hard for you. Are there ways you can mitigate in the meantime, since you don't plan to send her back to school immediately? Could DH take a more active role in homeschooling DD9 until brick and mortar school is a real option?  Do you need time or space for "self-care?"

DH has definitely taken a more active role recently, and that's been nice. But honestly, what we need is a break from anyone sitting on her about her schoolwork. She is no longer doing well with people sitting on her. 

[Terabith]

5 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

DH has definitely taken a more active role recently, and that's been nice. But honestly, what we need is a break from anyone sitting on her about her schoolwork. She is no longer doing well with people sitting on her. 

She's nine.  The school year has already started, so it's not ideal to send her to brick and mortar school right now.  She's significantly ahead academically.  Why not just unschool the rest of this year?  

[Not_a_Number]

24 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I think she can't imagine what life would be like without that conflict.  The trick is you can't transfer that conflict to things like homework.  School has to be 100% her responsibility.  

Lol, I just asked her if she'd want to do baseball camp all year round if that was an option, and she said no. And she ADORED baseball camp. 

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, Terabith said:

She's nine.  The school year has already started, so it's not ideal to send her to brick and mortar school right now.  She's significantly ahead academically.  Why not just unschool the rest of this year?  

I wouldn't send her before she's vaccinated, anyway. I can imagine sending her back in January, though. 

Our current plan is unschooling and seeing what happens. She's actually so far more motivated by the idea that she may have to go to school than by all my previous attempts to convince her. 🙄 She's been working all morning by herself to show me that she's able. She's currently asking to practice working with me in a good way (so to practice listening to me in a way that enables her to answer questions well.) 

I have no idea where all this is going, except that I know I'm done fighting with her. 

Edited September 22, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[mom2scouts]

17 hours ago, lewelma said:

I have a teacher friend who always said that "school is for the average kid." This is one of the reasons that I have never regretted schooling, because neither of my kids are average. My older is both incredibly motivated and profoundly gifted, and my younger is 2E. If I had to choose which one was more important to homeschool, I would say my younger. Twice exceptional just does NOT work in schools. I know for a fact that he would have dropped out as soon as he could have if he had been in school. And he would have thought he was stupid, and routed into a basic and ultimately unsatisfying career. I have saved him from this fate. But I do think my older would have found his way. He would have hated school, really despised it, but I still think he would have found his way to becoming a scientist.

It's interesting you should say this. I've been following this post with mixed feelings as I'm getting closer to the empty nest years after decades of being at home. My career field has changed so dramatically that it would be almost impossible for me to return to it now. DH is not a driven person and is in a field that responds to the economy and layoffs are common and frequent. He's happy with the job he has now where he's underpaid and has no benefits, but has professional freedom, flexibility, and little chance of layoff. He plans to work well into his 70's so we can have some financial stability.

My profoundly gifted son is a scientist. He went to public school. He absolutely hated every second of school. He's vowed never to set foot into his high school again for any reason. DS is now becoming successful in his career, but the emotional scars from public school are still very evident. He was misunderstood and bullied by both students and teachers. Sending him to public school is my biggest parenting regret. It was truly a big mistake. The reason I started homeschooling my younger children was because I saw younger DS heading in a similar direction. I couldn't handle losing the fight again. Homeschooling younger DS has been amazing. He graduated last spring and homeschooling was exactly what he needed. I've loved the time I've spent with him. Now I only have DD left. She's never been to school and I have regular panic about whether I'm doing the right thing with her. There's no high school homeschoolers here and teen social life revolves around the high school. Covid has decimated the few co-ops and homeschool classes that were available. She seems happy about homeschooling, but I know she wants more of a social life. When she graduates, both dh and I will be in our 60's and not in a great financial situation. I have regrets, but they're not really about homeschooling. They're more about not thinking through all the future issues and taking them into consideration while homeschooling.

[Terabith]

18 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I wouldn't send her before she's vaccinated, anyway. I can imagine sending her back in January, though. 

Our current plan is unschooling and seeing what happens. She's actually so far more motivated by the idea that she may have to go to school than by all my previous attempts to convince her. 🙄 She's been working all morning by herself to show me that she's able. She's currently asking to practice working with me in a good way (so to practice listening to me in a way that enables her to answer questions well.) 

I have no idea where all this is going, except that I know I'm done fighting with her. 

That energy isn't sustainable either though.  I agree that I definitely wouldn't send her pre vaccination.  I wouldn't make going to school a threat or a punishment, but I also would't make it a choice or a way to negotiate good behavior either.  You guys have tried a lot of things.  Your relationship needs a break.  It really doesn't seem to be healthy for either of you.  

[Jenny in Florida]

15 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

Well, seven pages later, I've worked out what to do.

Going to use the term break to go through the homeschool photos, choose my faves, and make and hang a collage of them. The kids may have no memories but damn, I'm gonna display the evidence 🙂 

I didn't realise how much the lack of recognition  - hey guys, we did this thing, put a lot into it! - was bothering me. 

I kept an assortment of mementos scattered around my home office for the first few years after we were done. I found it comforting to have them there. I did finally pack away most of it when we made the most recent move. It just felt like time.

I will say that I think everyone thought I was joking when I said I felt like I deserved a party as much as my son did when he graduated. But I wasn't entirely kidding. I do not like being the center of attention, and I'm really bad about accepting praise or recognition gracefully, but I really did feel like I needed and deserved some kind of acknowledgment of the fact that it was a big transition for me, too. 

If I had worked at almost any other paid-type job for as long as I had homeschooled, there would have been a farewell party when I left. I know nobody really gets a gold watch anymore, but, heck, even when I left the bookstore I managed for a couple of years, everyone chipped in for a nice engraved pen. 

Instead, when homeschooling was over, I got unceremoniously dumped out into the outside world with no more than a kind of grudging goodbye hug when we finished moving my son into his dorm. 

To be clear, I know my children don't owe me a darned thing. As someone else said, I chose to have them, and I do not believe they have any obligation to express everlasting gratitude to me simply because I did the best I could in terms of raising and educating them. I owed them that.

But, geez, having anyone in the world notice that the end of it was a big deal for me would have been nice.

[katilac]

Let me share a viewpoint on memories that might have meaning to some of you. 

My cousin takes each of her kids to Disney World right around their 2nd birthday. People constantly ask her why she takes them so young, they aren't going to remember it. She just says, but I will remember it. 

Memories can still be magical even if the kids don't remember! 

8 minutes ago, Jenny in Florida said:

But, geez, having anyone in the world notice that the end of it was a big deal for me would have been nice.

 

We did backyard graduations on our deck for our dds. When the youngest graduated, dh presented me with a diploma, lol. 

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

  Gen X as a whole is just far more pragmatic and realistic.  If the ideal isn't a lived reality, we're willing to tweak things even if it means stepping away from our ideals and adopting new ones. We're willing to question ideals and ourselves because we lived in an environment that creates cynicism. A certain amount of cynicism is essential to successfully homeschool because you have to be willing to make appropriate adjustments as needed.
 

That may be true. I'm Gen X, and am not expecting my kids to be enthusiastic and adore anything, so when they are, it's extra special. 

1 hour ago, SKL said:

I also have one kid who will not learn from me, and pretty much never would.  You would not believe how stubborn she could be (unless you had one just like her, LOL).  At school she does the minimum to keep me off her back.  I decided long ago that I was not going to grind my teeth down to stubs because my advanced kid isn't as advanced as she could be.

 

this is how my oldest ended up basically unschooling his highschool years, other than the semesters he did dual enrollment. He was learning, although not typical stuff, and I felt just keeping him alive to learn later was more important - and keeping our relationship there so when he was ready, he'd come to me. It means he has "avian science" on his transcript as a class from when he volunteered 3 days a week at a bird rehab center, and I counted PBS documentaries as history credit...but whatever. He got good grades in college courses, so it worked. And was better than him failing out of public school and/or hating me for trying to force him to homeschool in a traditional way. But there were mental health aspects at play as well, not sure what I'd have done without that issue. 

40 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I wouldn't send her before she's vaccinated, anyway. I can imagine sending her back in January, though. 

Our current plan is unschooling and seeing what happens. She's actually so far more motivated by the idea that she may have to go to school than by all my previous attempts to convince her. 🙄 She's been working all morning by herself to show me that she's able. She's currently asking to practice working with me in a good way (so to practice listening to me in a way that enables her to answer questions well.) 

I have no idea where all this is going, except that I know I'm done fighting with her. 

I may or may not have yelled at one of my kids, who was dragging their feet, "Do you WANT me to put you in public school so you can get Covid?!?!?!". Not my finest moment, but it did work, lol. 

[Jenny in Florida]

2 minutes ago, katilac said:

We did backyard graduations on our deck for our dds. When the youngest graduated, dh presented me with a diploma, lol. 

We did individual party-type graduations for both of ours, too.

Your husband had the right idea.

[ktgrok]

5 minutes ago, katilac said:

 

We did backyard graduations on our deck for our dds. When the youngest graduated, dh presented me with a diploma, lol. 

Forget a diploma, I want a trophy...or jewelry, lol. Or a vacation. 

[Dmmetler]

17 minutes ago, Jenny in Florida said:

I kept an assortment of mementos scattered around my home office for the first few years after we were done. I found it comforting to have them there. I did finally pack away most of it when we made the most recent move. It just felt like time.

I will say that I think everyone thought I was joking when I said I felt like I deserved a party as much as my son did when he graduated. But I wasn't entirely kidding. I do not like being the center of attention, and I'm really bad about accepting praise or recognition gracefully, but I really did feel like I needed and deserved some kind of acknowledgment of the fact that it was a big transition for me, too. 

If I had worked at almost any other paid-type job for as long as I had homeschooled, there would have been a farewell party when I left. I know nobody really gets a gold watch anymore, but, heck, even when I left the bookstore I managed for a couple of years, everyone chipped in for a nice engraved pen. 

Instead, when homeschooling was over, I got unceremoniously dumped out into the outside world with no more than a kind of grudging goodbye hug when we finished moving my son into his dorm. 

To be clear, I know my children don't owe me a darned thing. As someone else said, I chose to have them, and I do not believe they have any obligation to express everlasting gratitude to me simply because I did the best I could in terms of raising and educating them. I owed them that.

But, geez, having anyone in the world notice that the end of it was a big deal for me would have been nice.

I made my kid do a small homeschool graduation for me-because I needed the closure. In retrospect, it really wasn't a great choice for a kid who had been struggling with major COVID anxiety-even with knowing everyone was vaccinated and that June was pretty low risk, it was pretty hard to do-but I'm glad I did. Because it meant that I was with other parents also going through the same transition and sending kids to college mid-COVID. 

 

We did a park party where L's friends could drop in, and that was the graduation L wanted. 

[LucyStoner]

5 hours ago, regentrude said:

Thanks for saying this. Sometimes the ' never too late" mindset borders dangerously on toxic positivity. It's simply not true. My dream was to be an opera singer; that ship had sailed completely decades ago, because you don't even get into conservatory as a vocal performer after a certain age. I will also never have a tenure track position, it's not possible to suddenly begin a research program after 25 years away from active research. I have zero chance of  becoming an elite climber.

I find it important to acknowledge that some choices close doors permanently, and that it's OK to mourn the missed opportunities. That doesn't mean rewriting history and dismissing those choices. But it's OK to be sad. No, sometimes it is indeed too late, and all we can do is make our peace with that.

Thank you.  I frame this in terms of opportunity costs.  Choices and circumstances do close doors.  

I am someone who, due to when I had kids and the extraordinary needs that those particular children had, more or less missed my calling.  When my older son was born, I planned to attend law school while he was young.  We had financial considerations and he had needs that simply made that path impractical.  I *could* go to law school in my 40s and still practice law for 20+ years but it doesn't make a lot of sense for me to do so as I presently work less hard for more money than I would be likely to make after going to law school (to say nothing of PAYING) for law school.  I would rather pour our resources into securing our retirement, getting the kids through college and travel than bust my butt in law school for 3 years and spend the next decade paying off those loans.  The opportunity cost of law school at this juncture are ones I don't wish to pay.  And that's ok.  The niche of accounting that I function in provides me with decent money for reasonably meaningful work and very little effort on my part because I am good at what I do and I don't need more education to do it.  

Edited September 22, 2021 by LucyStoner

[LucyStoner]

I would add that seeing and acknowledging the opportunity costs of homeschooling or any other life event (having kids, staying home) in no way means that someone is bitter or regrets spending time with their kids. 

I honestly don't feel that I spend all that much less time with my younger son who is in school full time than I did with his big brother at the same age who was homeschooled.  Sure he was homeschooled but a lot of that time was used for therapy, classes and extracurriculars.  Now, the therapy and classes are in the context of the school day and I am free to work and invest in myself rather than using the downtime of OT, SLP and other therapies to plan our next homeschooling endeavor.  I'm still home when he's home, I'm still soccer momming it to activities etc.  

I don't have any patience for mommy war type stuff that places any particular path above or below others.  

Edited September 22, 2021 by LucyStoner

[LucyStoner]

10 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Forget a diploma, I want a trophy...or jewelry, lol. Or a vacation. 

A vacation would be nice but I'll settle for a cookie.  

[lewelma]

4 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

The things she's having trouble with are things like "checking whether the word she copied is the same as the word below the line" and "bothering to check the number of days in February." She makes LESS effort on stuff that's "too easy." She wants things to be interesting. Grade level math is the opposite of interesting! 

Older boy was like this, and I came to believe 'easy work' was like proof reading a telephone book to him. He could want to do it and he could try to do it, but it was just so easy and boring and horrible that there was no way that he could do it. It wasn't that he *wouldn't* is was that he *couldn't*. This was not a hill that I was willing to die on. I let his skills run 6 years ahead and only shored up his weaknesses to grade level.  Perhaps you struggle with the inconsistent levels of the very gifted. By the age of 13, my older boy was 6 years ahead in math, 1 year behind in writing, and 4 years behind in Executive Function skills. Interacting with any person like this, let alone your own child, is confusing and exhausting. Things they should be able to do, the just cannot do. Don't be hard on yourself. Kids like this are hard. 

[HS Mom in NC]

I wouldn't feel the slightest guilt with threatening public school. It's bizarre to me others are bothered by it.  Really!?  Once again, that's just reality, as is the frustration expressed by a parent when a kid isn't doing school that is reasonably and developmentally appropriate for them.   Our society has laws and morals regarding the education of children.  You get the equivalent of a K-12 education somewhere, and if it's not happening in the child's current location, the natural consequence is to move to a different location.  Homeschooling not working for whatever reason?  Then make it public school or private school.  Hire a tutor.  Whatever, just make sure the kid is getting a K-12 educaiton.  Yes, there is a certain amount of responsibility on the kid to cooperate. If they won't cooperate enough to make appropriate progress with a parent, then the parent's only realistic option is have someone else give it a go within the constraints of location and available resources.

We're friends with a family of 9 children between the ages of 3 and 16. They've been homeschooled all their lives.  A couple of years ago there were external forces putting strain on the parents limiting (not eliminating) their attentiveness to the kids' academics, and the school aged kids weren't getting done academics they were definitely capable of doing. So the mom did the sensible thing and explained that each of the school aged kids was on academic probation, meaning for the next 3 months until the second week of December,  if they didn't get their homeschooling done by the set deadlines (weekly if I remember correctly) with the amount of supervision mom and dad were able to do at that time, then mom would enroll those that didn't in ps the week before Christmas Break and they would start in January. They all managed to get it done on time and have been since.  They know they'll be enrolled in ps if they don't.  That's life.  That's reality.  That's what's appropriate.