Why get a COVID Vaccine if it will make no difference in your life?

[Resilient]

I admit that I am a little sarcastic about this situation, but a part of me is genuinely asking and willing to learn.

An acquaintance has been (what I consider to be) completely fanatic about following alllll the protocols--going well above and beyond.  Double masking with N95 even in her car, when when walking outdoors, 6' away from her walking friend... She has groceries delivered and washes all of the packaging with bleach. This is a small sample of her protocols to give you the drift.   

She got the vaccine for herself and her family before they were eligible (dh, 2 adult children) by lying about their "underlying conditions" and "caregiving for multi-generational people in your home" (read: my adult child comes to visit)...  Got the scenario?

She has the vaccine now, as does everyone she knows (most of whom got it out of order but by luck, not by lying) and she still is insisting on all the same protocols: (see the first 2 paragraphs).  She has no plan to change anything at all in her life as a result of getting the vaccine.   

I don't understand this. Can someone explain?  

 

[Tanaqui]

I'd suggest that one of two things is going on.

Either somebody in her life is extremely high risk, and she wishes to take no extra chances (and you may not know this about her even if you think you know her well), or, it's possible she's suffering from some sort of anxiety disorder or similar conditions.

At any rate, how she lives her life is her business. If you're her friend, you don't really need to know her reasoning, you just need to understand that this is important to her.

(I do think she should not have lied, but in the long run increased herd immunity will benefit everybody. If you think that's an ethical line too far, decide what you have to do about your relationship and stick to it.)

[Ali in OR]

I believe CDC still asks you to follow a lot of those guidelines, and it makes sense as case numbers are still as high as they were last summer and increasing in some places. I feel safer if everyone in the grocery store is masked; if people aren't masked, how do I know if they are unmasked because they are vaccinated or just don't like masks? Our state is running ads to remind everyone to "follow the four"--wear masks, wash hands, stay 6 ft away from people, and avoid crowds. And they don't say to do that only if you're unvaccinated. But when we have enough people vaccinated to have very low case counts, I expect those directives will go away.

The goal of vaccination isn't just to be able to do what you want; the goal is to get to that herd immunity point where everyone is safer. Think at the community level, not just your own personal life. I have no problem with people who remain cautious after vaccination.

[Resilient]

20 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

I'd suggest that one of two things is going on.

Either somebody in her life is extremely high risk, and she wishes to take no extra chances (and you may not know this about her even if you think you know her well), or, it's possible she's suffering from some sort of anxiety disorder or similar conditions.

At any rate, how she lives her life is her business. If you're her friend, you don't really need to know her reasoning, you just need to understand that this is important to her.

(I do think she should not have lied, but in the long run increased herd immunity will benefit everybody. If you think that's an ethical line too far, decide what you have to do about your relationship and stick to it.)

I don’t really have a relationship with her. 24 years ago, I knew I couldn’t deal with this person.  But through others, she is in my life.  I don’t hate her.  I don’t have what it takes to be her friend.  She is a remarkable and accomplished person—much more so than I.  
I agree it is not my business to judge.  I’m working on that.  
But I also don’t understand and I want to.  I have used a specific  person as an example to set forth the situation.  
She is not the only person I know taking this position. I want to understand it.  
I admit to being a bit annoyed because other people with this attitude ARE friends or are being affected by this attitude. 

 

[Pen]

1 hour ago, Resilient said:

I admit that I am a little sarcastic about this situation, but a part of me is genuinely asking and willing to learn.

An acquaintance has been (what I consider to be) completely fanatic about following alllll the protocols--going well above and beyond.  Double masking with N95 even in her car, when when walking outdoors, 6' away from her walking friend... She has groceries delivered and washes all of the packaging with bleach. This is a small sample of her protocols to give you the drift.   

She got the vaccine for herself and her family before they were eligible (dh, 2 adult children) by lying about their "underlying conditions" and "caregiving for multi-generational people in your home" (read: my adult child comes to visit)...  Got the scenario?

She has the vaccine now, as does everyone she knows (most of whom got it out of order but by luck, not by lying) and she still is insisting on all the same protocols: (see the first 2 paragraphs).  She has no plan to change anything at all in her life as a result of getting the vaccine.   

I don't understand this. Can someone explain?  

 

In the event that Geert Vanden Bossche and others are correct that getting the vaccine turns people into breeding grounds for mutated (and perhaps more deadly) strains of virus, it is probably a good thing that many people getting the vaccine are being ultra careful, double masking, bleaching, and more. 
 

I had thought everyone I personally knew who had gotten vaccinated was doing okay with it other than temporary reactions, but I am no longer sure that’s the case. 

[Resilient]

@Pen

So now what, if this is the case?

ASKING because the vaccine is not risk free, not getting the vaccine is not risk free, and getting the vaccine introduced new risks.  
 

aiaiai.   

[Tanaqui]

Pen, that's conspiracy-theory reasoning. This is not the case with any other vaccine, and it is extremely unlikely that this is the case with THIS vaccine. Furthermore, there is no evidence that it IS the case for this vaccine, and a great deal of evidence that it isn't the case.

 

https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/covid-19-critical-thinking-pseudoscience/doomsday-prophecy-dr-geert-vanden-bossche

Edited April 1, 2021 by Tanaqui

[Jean in Newcastle]

The vaccine will make a huge difference in my life.  Not immediately with regards to the very easy mitigation efforts of masking, social distancing and low crowd sizes.  But it will make a difference as it lowers Covid rates in my local area and eventually in the country as a whole.  This will improve everyone's quality of life.  Also it will lower my risk of hospitalization and/or death significantly.  Since I am immunocompromised that is very significant for me but even if I weren't, it would still lower my risk. 

[Resilient]

@TanaquiThank you for this input.  I have been really frustrated by so much of this whole situation.  
 

“Follow the Science” has been the mantra, but in the world of “my truth” the science turns out to be whatever I can say to gain power or whatever is “my truth.”

I understand that people have different sets of circumstances they have to deal with.  Some are medically fragile.  Some have extended families that they have to respect or never see until WHATEVER magical moment makes it all ok again. I DO understand that.  I even get it that there is a broad spectrum of the ability to trust or suspect political people, to suspect (or nit) the lust for power.  But none of that should be “Science.” 

I’m worn out with people acting like we haven’t learned a single thing in a year.  Last year at this time, we knew nothing.  So running around like suddenly headless chickens was not irrational.  But to continue to act like we know nothing and act like  it is a year ago...is not encouraging re human rationality.  
 

[Resilient]

FWIW I am “medically fragile.”   

[Pen]

15 minutes ago, Resilient said:

@Pen

So now what, if this is the case?

ASKING because the vaccine is not risk free, not getting the vaccine is not risk free, and getting the vaccine introduced new risks.  
 

aiaiai.   

I am an Ivermectin; zinc plus ionophore; and natural vitamins especially D3 (plus AEK and cofactors) , minerals, supplements proponent.     For myself I pretty much have to be in any case due to allergies to vaccine components.  
 

most vaccines do not cause the type of reaction feared, but certainly at least the mRNA types are completely new as “vaccines” -  I do not know yet what will happen .   I think anyone who claims to know for sure, in either direction, is going off on “theory” whether or not one chooses to add the word Conspiracy to that.  Brand new “vaccine” whole mode, can’t have more than theory as to future ramifications. 

 

life is not risk free    
 

Truth

 

get as much information as you can and make the best decision you can 

 

 

 

[Pen]

28 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

Pen, that's conspiracy-theory reasoning. This is not the case with any other vaccine, and it is extremely unlikely that this is the case with THIS vaccine. Furthermore, there is no evidence that it IS the case for this vaccine, and a great deal of evidence that it isn't the case.

 

https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/covid-19-critical-thinking-pseudoscience/doomsday-prophecy-dr-geert-vanden-bossche

 

most vaccines do not cause the type of reaction feared, but certainly at least the mRNA types are completely new as “vaccines” -  I do not know yet what will happen .   I think anyone who claims to know for sure, in either direction, is going off on “theory” whether or not one chooses to add the word Conspiracy to that.  Brand new “vaccine” whole mode, can’t have more than theory as to future ramifications. 

 

when you use “fact checkers” etc, be sure you have thoroughly looked into the fact checkers themselves.  Who are they? What are their allegiances and financing? What is their training? 

[LaughingCat]

While these are new vaccine types. saying that because of that they will CAUSE virus mutations and make people more sick is just someone throwing out a scary theory based on no research or facts.      Which is not to say there could not turn out to be unexpected consequences to these quickly turned out new style vaccines -- but if you're going to worry about something, worry about something more like thalidomide babies IMO. 

I do wonder how much our life will change 'back' after vaccines since some close family members have become quite a bit more germ phobic than I would have thought (far beyond following restrictions and being extra careful).      

[Resilient]

Vaccines have always caused problems for subsets of the population.  Risk assessment is a rational act.  So is care for those beyond oneself.  

I don't want to go into details; the internet is never "private." That said, I have a LOT of personal experience with risk assessment and tough medical decisions; vaccines and their risks and benefits; new and tried medicines that might work or might kill you; and the balancing act with "doing one's part for the good of the community" and "doing what is best for me."  I say this not to set myself up as a paragon (I'm not) but to preclude remarks about shallowness or inexperience on my part. Sue me. I am paying the piper right this minute for decisions that my parents and then I myself have had to make re: medical intervention. 

As I wrote the last paragraph, I came to realize what bugs me so much about the person used as the "case" in my initial post. We have different decision-making criteria, different basic values. It makes me think that the question is less about the vaccine and more about core values, so maybe the answers to the question I asked will, in the end, not satisfy.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Resilient - I do believe that ultimately the decision to vaccinate or not for Covid should be between a person and their (qualified) medical doctor.  There are some cases where doctors may advise someone not to get the vaccine.  That has always been the case for all vaccines.  But for the majority of us, I assume (with some basis for thinking this) that most doctors will recommend vaccination.  I am skeptical of people who decide to reject the vaccine with no conversation at all with with their medical doctor because I do think that this is a decision that should be made with the help of qualified medical help.  That said, of course, we cannot make others go to or listen to their doctors.  For that reason I am glad that the vaccine will give me some protection from those who don't vaccinate and more importantly, those who choose not to be careful in the midst of a global pandemic. 

[Pen]

12 minutes ago, Resilient said:

Vaccines have always caused problems for subsets of the population.  Risk assessment is a rational act.  So is care for those beyond oneself.  

I don't want to go into details; the internet is never "private." That said, I have a LOT of personal experience with risk assessment and tough medical decisions; vaccines and their risks and benefits; new and tried medicines that might work or might kill you; and the balancing act with "doing one's part for the good of the community" and "doing what is best for me."  I say this not to set myself up as a paragon (I'm not) but to preclude remarks about shallowness or inexperience on my part. Sue me. I am paying the piper right this minute for decisions that my parents and then I myself have had to make re: medical intervention. 

As I wrote the last paragraph, I came to realize what bugs me so much about the person used as the "case" in my initial post. We have different decision-making criteria, different basic values. It makes me think that the question is less about the vaccine and more about core values, so maybe the answers to the question I asked will, in the end, not satisfy.

even these contrasts are difficult because what one person -say Bill Gates — thinks is “for the good of the community” may be what another person — say Vanden Bossche — thinks is “for the bad of the community”

 

I believe people need to do their own research as much as they are capable of that and make their own best decisions 

you seem new here and by and large fwiw this tends to be a pro-vaccine group in my experience 

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Getting vaccine advice from a veterinarian is not exactly the best idea. . .

[Tanaqui]

Pen, please - don't tell me to deeply interrogate the motives and backgrounds of fact checkers when, as near as I can tell, you're currently swallowing any amount of garbage fed to you by Youtube's algorithm if it resonates with you emotionally.

[*****]

2 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

or, it's possible she's suffering from some sort of anxiety disorder or similar conditions.

Perhaps OCD?

I have a friend who is still doing all the washing of grocery items, too. Way more than I think is necessary.  She is immune compromised, so very high risk, but she isn't having groceries delivered or jumping lines. Everything about this pandemic is just...'I don't get it'!

[Resilient]

29 minutes ago, Pen said:

you seem new here and by and large fwiw this tends to be a pro-vaccine group in my experience 

Oh. My newbie mistake.  
im sorry if I have overstepped or posted an incorrect question or been offensive 
ugh.  I can’t even find a way to say this without sounding sarcastic. 
never mind.  

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

when you use “fact checkers” etc, be sure you have thoroughly looked into the fact checkers themselves.  Who are they? What are their allegiances and financing? What is their training? 

You cite a Belgian veterinarian whose made-up "theories" are spread on YouTube and FB, and then imply that an article published by McGill University, that refutes this guy's discredited ideas point by point with actual data, is not to be trusted and is pushing some sort of agenda? 

I have to say, Pen, that watching you fall deeper and deeper down the rabbit hole of Q-spiracies and covid quackery over the course of the last 12 months has been really disheartening. I sincerely hope that once this pandemic is over you're able to find your way back.

[Jean in Newcastle]

7 minutes ago, Resilient said:

Oh. My newbie mistake.  
im sorry if I have overstepped or posted an incorrect question or been offensive 
ugh.  I can’t even find a way to say this without sounding sarcastic. 
never mind.  

You have not overstepped. This is an important discussion. Not all will agree on this board, just as not all will agree in “real life “. But the vast majority of us value honest debate backed with data and good logic skills. I think that’s fitting for a board focused on good education. 
 

The one discussion not allowed on this board (see post pinned at the top) are explicitly political posts. 

[Corraleno]

6 minutes ago, Resilient said:

Oh. My newbie mistake.  
im sorry if I have overstepped or posted an incorrect question or been offensive 
ugh.  I can’t even find a way to say this without sounding sarcastic. 
never mind.  

Don't worry, you didn't make any mistakes and your questions were not offensive at all. 

What Pen actually means is that most people here are pro-science. So if you want to argue that Andrew Wakefield is a persecuted martyr who proved that vaccines cause autism and there's a global conspiracy to suppress that, you can expect push back. If you're going to link to crazy anti-vaxx websites that promote conspiracy theories with no basis in fact, expect serious push back. But if you say "I read that mRNA vaccines can cause infertility, is there any truth to that?" you'll get a respectful discussion with links to scientific facts and explanations. 

[Shoeless]

58 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Getting vaccine advice from a veterinarian is not exactly the best idea. . .

Well, unless you are a dog or cat. 🐶😻

[Guest]

To answer the OP’s question: anxiety. Anxiety is the reason someone does a bunch of likely unnecessary things. People who have anxiety control the small part they think they can control because the part they cannot control feels scary. 

I hope you will stick around and get a feel for the board. This is the best place on the web for intelligent, well-reasoned discussion. IRL, I call this board, “my smart people.” It’s only because of my smart people that I had masks, sanitizer, wipes, extra toilet paper and a pulse oximeter last February. 

[Soror]

This is my mil. It has became an excuse not to see people and feeds her loneliness (fil died 3 yrs ago now). I've tried offering her solutions of things to do and stay safe but she won't. She considered an outside and distanced Easter celebration but now says she wants to wait until Summer when everyone is vaccinated but not all of my children will even be able to be vaccinated by then.  To top it off she will go in the store with a mask but not see family outside. She always loved that before. Sigh.

[Pawz4me]

NM, not really relevant

Edited April 1, 2021 by Pawz4me

[Katy]

5 hours ago, Resilient said:

@TanaquiThank you for this input.  I have been really frustrated by so much of this whole situation.  
 

“Follow the Science” has been the mantra, but in the world of “my truth” the science turns out to be whatever I can say to gain power or whatever is “my truth.”

I understand that people have different sets of circumstances they have to deal with.  Some are medically fragile.  Some have extended families that they have to respect or never see until WHATEVER magical moment makes it all ok again. I DO understand that.  I even get it that there is a broad spectrum of the ability to trust or suspect political people, to suspect (or nit) the lust for power.  But none of that should be “Science.” 

I’m worn out with people acting like we haven’t learned a single thing in a year.  Last year at this time, we knew nothing.  So running around like suddenly headless chickens was not irrational.  But to continue to act like we know nothing and act like  it is a year ago...is not encouraging re human rationality.  
 

The thing is we don’t yet know how effective the vaccine is against some of the new strains, and we don’t know how effective it is for preventing asymptomatic spread. So the science is to continue following the guidelines in case you can still catch it and spread it to others.  

Also, this friend of yours has already made it clear she doesn’t value honesty. It could be someone or multiple people in her family is very high risk and she doesn’t want anyone to know. Some people consider medical problems to be a moral defect, especially if it’s something that might be related to diet like blood pressure or diabetes. She could have been honest about the need to get the vaccine early and lying to everyone else about it. 

[Martha in GA]

Quote

4 hours ago, Pen said:

I believe people need to do their own research as much as they are capable of that and make their own best decisions

 

I agree with this, but, sadly, it seems those who choose not to vaccinate are considered villains, and many people are behind the idea that those who choose not to vaccinate be excluded from society -- unable to travel, unable to shop, etc. That is no longer a choice. And, yes, I've heard all the rhetoric that we need to protect everyone by being vaccinated. I think we have purposely been kept in fear (media?) about the pandemic so that we aren't thinking straight as a society. I'm sure I'll receive a million party-line responses. I'm not particularly interested in a debate...And, I am not anti-science as I'm sure certain people on this board will call me. I just don't think science "knows" enough right now. The body is incredibly complex.

[PeterPan]

4 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Getting vaccine advice from a veterinarian is not exactly the best idea. . .

Are you for real, the guy putting forward his idea about the vaccine resulting in you carrying mutations is a veterinarian?? That's as bad as when a certain religious group (that I feel ashamed to be part of sometimes) put forward a KNEE DOCTOR as an expert on mental health. The dude had an MD and was a christian, so he should be listened to. Knee doctor is pretty close to psychiatry, right? LOL I kid you not they did this. Had a convention, brought this guy in as an expert. 

[Pawz4me]

22 minutes ago, Martha in GA said:

I agree with this, but, sadly, it seems those who choose not to vaccinate are considered villains, and many people are behind the idea that those who choose not to vaccinate be excluded from society -- unable to travel, unable to shop, etc. That is no longer a choice. And, yes, I've heard all the rhetoric that we need to protect everyone by being vaccinated. I think we have purposely been kept in fear (media?) about the pandemic so that we aren't thinking straight as a society. I'm sure I'll receive a million party-line responses. I'm not particularly interested in a debate...And, I am not anti-science as I'm sure certain people on this board will call me. I just don't think science "knows" enough right now. The body is incredibly complex.

But if you read the other thread (I think it's titled "To vaccine or not to vaccine" or something similar) you'll see that many of us have said we're okay with people making their own choices about whether or not to get vaccinated. Many of us are of the consistent belief that people should be allowed to make their own choices WRT their bodies. But bring wacko conspiracy theories into the discussion as an attempt to justify the decision and you should expect push back. Say "I want to wait awhile and see what happens" and I'm okay with that. Say "I'm going to wait because this person with no legit qualifications on YouTube says blah blah blah easily disprovable thing" and there's almost certainly going to be push back, and rightly so.

[freesia]

I agree with those who say that it is anxiety. I also think people resist shifts in behavior unless they have a personal motivation.   I am between vaccine shots and am trying to get in the head space of being able to do some things differently, but it’s hard to imagine.  As more people around us are vaccinated, and numbers go down, I think the general anxiety will lower and the people you are concerned about will relax. 

In my world, with some generalized anxiety, it’s not the media that causes fear, but the folks who refuse to take any precautions and argue all the time.  If my family has made a risk assessment and decide to attend an activity which has certain guidelines, we expect other to also. Flouting them causes the anxiety, not because the media tells us, but bc of the risk factors we have and the folks we’ve known who’ve lost loved ones to this virus. 

 

Edited April 1, 2021 by freesia

[PeterPan]

Just for a little twist, turns out this Vanden Bossche dude has a phd in virology as well as his DVM, specializes in *vaccine development*, and has been employed by some big orgs in that field. So his knowledge isn't *so* tertiary or off he wall or extrapolated. 

https://be.linkedin.com/in/geertvandenbossche

I'm not saying I know anything more about the validity of his arguments, just thinking if vaccines are what he works with all day (not kitty cats), he has room to have an opinion. In fact, it's kind of interesting if MDs (not specialists in virology, much more broad training?) are knocking the views of someone with a phd in virology. 

Edited April 1, 2021 by PeterPan

[1234]

1 hour ago, Katy said:

The thing is we don’t yet know how effective the vaccine is against some of the new strains, and we don’t know how effective it is for preventing asymptomatic spread. So the science is to continue following the guidelines in case you can still catch it and spread it to others.  

Also, this friend of yours has already made it clear she doesn’t value honesty. It could be someone or multiple people in her family is very high risk and she doesn’t want anyone to know. Some people consider medical problems to be a moral defect, especially if it’s something that might be related to diet like blood pressure or diabetes. She could have been honest about the need to get the vaccine early and lying to everyone else about it. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1262710

Thought I would share this here. New Pfizer data shows still very effective six months after second dose and seems to show effectiveness against, at least, the SA variant. 

[PeterPan]

Here's an analysis of Vanden Bossche from the anti-vaxing community (yes? am I missing it?) that kind of goes into the weeds of his arguments. They're actually really interesting, but the article then pulls out a whole bunch of challenges. https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/vanden-bossche-mass-vaccination/

[Katy]

2 minutes ago, Joker2 said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1262710

Thought I would share this here. New Pfizer data shows still very effective six months after second dose and seems to show effectiveness against, at least, the SA variant. 

Yes but we need bigger, long term studies of all the vaccines against all the known variants to change public health recommendations. 

[1234]

2 minutes ago, Katy said:

Yes but we need bigger, long term studies of all the vaccines against all the known variants to change public health recommendations. 

I understand but some of what the OP’s friend is doing isn’t even current recommendations anymore, at least not around here. I get making inside and distancing (though I think distance requirement was changed to only 3 feet for schools), but the other stuff definitely seems to be just anxiety driven, so aren’t actually public health rec’s. 

[Laura Corin]

2 hours ago, Soror said:

This is my mil. It has became an excuse not to see people and feeds her loneliness (fil died 3 yrs ago now). I've tried offering her solutions of things to do and stay safe but she won't. She considered an outside and distanced Easter celebration but now says she wants to wait until Summer when everyone is vaccinated but not all of my children will even be able to be vaccinated by then.  To top it off she will go in the store with a mask but not see family outside. She always loved that before. Sigh.

I'm sorry. My mum once told my brother that he couldn't come over to see her because she had a routine dental checkup that week.

[ktgrok]

To take out all the angst and emotion, I'd bet she is worried about some of the new strains, at least one of which the vaccine is less effective for. Or, she doesn't want to be in the 5% that it doesn't work well for. 

She got the vaccine to lower her risk of getting sick or dying, and the other measures she is taking also lower that risk. With new variants that we don't know much about yet, she's continuing being cautious. 

Why does this bother you? What difference does it make to you if she wipes down her groceries? (although, if you chat with her, suggest peroxide - less caustic and no fumes! Still kills corona viruses!)

[Soror]

1 hour ago, Joker2 said:

I understand but some of what the OP’s friend is doing isn’t even current recommendations anymore, at least not around here. I get making inside and distancing (though I think distance requirement was changed to only 3 feet for schools), but the other stuff definitely seems to be just anxiety driven, so aren’t actually public health rec’s. 

Yes, that is mil. It concerns us because we are concerned for her. She is obviously anxious and I wonder if/when she will recover from this emotionally. She was already a bit of a recluse after fil died and this has encouraged this in her to irrational levels. COVID is just an excuse.

57 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

I'm sorry. My mum once told my brother that he couldn't come over to see her because she had a routine dental checkup that week.

Wow! I'm sure he was hurt. I know we feel hurt here. She goes on about being lonely and she says she is sad (and obviously is) but won't work with us to find a way to visit that feels acceptable to her risk level. We've offered to do anything she would like to make her feel comfortable. She is not the easiest person to get along with so we are not doing this for our benefit but hers.

[Pen]

7 hours ago, Resilient said:

Oh. My newbie mistake.  
im sorry if I have overstepped or posted an incorrect question or been offensive 
ugh.  I can’t even find a way to say this without sounding sarcastic. 
never mind.  

I didn’t at all mean that you were overstepping. Just giving you my impression of the “hive” view on this. You can read this thread and come to your own conclusion as to whether I am right or wrong.   There seem to have been more “outside the hive*” thinkers here a decade ago, as I recall.  But it is extremely hard to have ideas different than the hive of any particular social media site. 

My grandfather was a professor in a significant university with a part of his research focus on immunology. My mother is an MD with a partial focus on immunology. I was going in the immunology training direction in schooling until I switched directions. 
 

Both of my parents in fact are MDs — and by and large trained at the same universities though in different sub-specialties - yet they each went in different directions with regard to the mRNA vaccine for themselves. Neither of them blindly.  
 

My father debated getting this particular vaccine  (one of the mRNA ones) longer than he usually debates before deciding to get it. He does not necessarily get all vaccines, but usually reads some and makes a fairly quick yes or no decision... this time he thought the situation was much more complicated. And he was leaning toward no before shifting to yes in part because he is probably close to his life’s end anyway and wanted to have more freedom to see friends and grandchildren  (Also because he loves Fauci.) 
 

I strongly suggest that you too (everyone here really) do your own research. Your own risk analysis as well as you can. 

* hive mind can be positive or negative itself   - and even on a site that acknowledges that it is a “hive” with people working up hive ranking as they post to become for example 

• Rank
  Hive Mind Queen Bee 

it can still be hard to realize for oneself that the way we approach things may be substantially Hive influenced.  

 

Negative:

/assets/icons/favicons/wikipedia.3x.pnghttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hive_mind

a type of collective consciousness Groupthink, in which the desire for harmony or conformity in a group results in irrational or dysfunctional decision-making

 

Positive:

 

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/hive-mind

a collective consciousness, analogous to the behavior of social insects, in which a group of people become aware of their commonality and think and act as a community, sharing their knowledge, thoughts, and resources: the global hive mind that has emerged with sites like Twitter and Facebook.

Negative: 

 

ttps://powerlisting.fandom.com/wiki/Hive_Mind

Hive mind allows a group of people (often biologically related) "share" the same mind. In some cases one person could take control of another separate body to add to the hive. Like most hive insects like bees and ants, each can work autonomously, though they think the same thing at the same time. The members have little individuality, more or ...

 

 

And an interesting article (suggests that even in one mind the individual neurons may act like a hive of bees): 

 

You Have a Hive Mind - Scientific American

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/you-have-a-hive-mind/

To Dr. Thomas Seeley, a professor of neurobiology at Cornell University, the "hive mind" is more than just a metaphor. In a recent paper in Science, Seeley and his colleagues describe a potential...

 

 

ETA: And I think the definitions about “hive mind” and the Scientific American article about “hive mind” within individual brains may explain part of what you have noticed in your friend. 

Edited April 1, 2021 by Pen

[ksr5377]

I think it's likely that when a larger segment of the population is vaccinated that they (and many other people) will slowly begin to stop all the other safety protocols.   It will be easier to do that for many people when the numbers are going down and the CDC says it's safe to do so.  I think it's similar to any vaccine really.  My kids have all been vaccinated for chicken pox.  I would still not take them to a place where I knew someone had chicken pox.  I know it's not entirely the same but I do understand that for some, especially if they have a lot of anxiety about the current situation, it feels like Covid is guaranteed to be everywhere.  

[bibiche]

Here is a non-sketchy site to read an article explaining the veterinarian’s theory and why it isn’t plausible: https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/covid-19-critical-thinking-pseudoscience/doomsday-prophecy-dr-geert-vanden-bossche

 

Edited April 1, 2021 by bibiche

[Pen]

3 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Are you for real, the guy putting forward his idea about the vaccine resulting in you carrying mutations is a veterinarian?? That's as bad as when a certain religious group (that I feel ashamed to be part of sometimes) put forward a KNEE DOCTOR as an expert on mental health. The dude had an MD and was a christian, so he should be listened to. Knee doctor is pretty close to psychiatry, right? LOL I kid you not they did this. Had a convention, brought this guy in as an expert. 

he has other science training besides veterinary degree . That could be looked up instead of using someone else’s somewhat “flame” post as your full information . Dont you think?   I am pretty sure you know you know how to do things like use pub med and so forth. 

 

 

he has a PhD in virology in addition to Veterinary degree

 

in addition perhaps it would be wise to consider that there is more veterinary experience with Coronavirus vaccines than there is human medical experience with it. 
 

Bold added below:

“Biography
Vanden Bossche received his DVM from the University of Ghent, Belgium, and his PhD degree in Virology from the University of Hohenheim, Germany. He held adjunct faculty appointments at universities in Belgium and Germany. After his career in Academia, Geert joined several vaccine companies (GSK Biologicals, Novartis Vaccines, Solvay Biologicals) to serve various roles in vaccine R&D as well as in late vaccine development. Geert then moved on to join the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation’s GH Discovery team as SPO and later on to work with GAVI as Senior Ebola Program Manager; he subsequently joined the German Center for Infection Research as Head of the Vaccine Development Office. Geert is now primarily serving as a Biotech/ Vaccine consultant while also conducting his own research on NK cell-based vaccines. His work is driven by a relentless passion to translate scientific breakthrough findings into competitive vaccine products. As a creative thinker, innovator, entrepreneur and visionary, Geert has been invited to speak at multiple international congresses. “
 

ETA: He is not generally against vaccines, and probably has more knowledge in that field than any of us on WTM. He probably also has more knowledge about vaccines than most of our primary care doctors do — though less knowledge about each of us personally than our primary care doctors would. 

Edited April 1, 2021 by Pen

[Pen]

@Tanaqui or whoever started the Vanden Bossche is just a veterinarian theme here, please see the biography posted above.  
 

fact checking your fact checkers is extremely important imo - ymmv 

 

yes, Vanden Bossche has a DVM veterinary degree, yet to refer to him and in a put down type of way and to try to discredit him as merely a veterinarian or to put me down for listening to a veterinarian seems incredibly disingenuous and misinformation promoting on your part. I think Vanden Bossche’s career description should be phrased in ways that make clear that he is someone who has worked substantially in the the Vaccine field as well as being a Virologist in addition to a Veterinarian. 
 

 

 

also @Resilient as it applies to your question too 

Quote

 

Edited April 1, 2021 by Pen

[Pam in CT]

There's a lot going on in this thread.

 

I just got my second shot yesterday.  I am mindful, from Moderna's own trial results as well as the communications from CDC, my primary care physician, and the pharmacist who administered it that full immunity will only be achieved 14 days from now.

I am also mindful that though the vaccine has demonstrated in trial conditions 95+% efficacy in preventing COVID (an ASTOUNDING efficacy rate, much higher than many long established vaccines), that still means that 5%, 1 out of 20, people who get the vaccine will contract the disease if they are exposed to it. Hopefully with much milder symptoms. But that is what 95% efficacy means: there WILL be breakthrough cases if the disease is still circulating in the community.

I am also mindful that the data is not yet conclusive about whether or not vaccinated people who do not contract the virus, can still TRANSMIT the virus.  It's looking promising thus far, but we do not know.

I am mindful that -- despite all the promise of the vaccines and their increasing deployment; and also despite our collective exhaustion with the limitations on our lives -- cases are currently going UP, not down, nationwide and in 29 out of 50 states.

But most of all, I am immensely mindful that new, more easily transmissible and apparently more serious, variants have come into my community and are spreading briskly.  And we do not yet know if the vaccines will be effective against these new strains.  We can reasonably expect, however, based on everything we know about similar viruses, that the more new strains that emerge, the less well the existing vaccines will be able to counter them.

 

So -- whether or not we want to be, whether or not we "believe" it -- we're in a Great Race.  Which will happen first: enough people get vaccinated to suppress the spread of current strains and prevent the evolution of new ones?  Or, new variants run rampant as existing vaccines are unable to contain them (bc we haven't achieved 70-85% vaccination rates/ herd immunity, and/or because the new variants resist the vaccine), and we're sent back to February 2020 case/ hospitalization / death rates?

Either is possible.

 

So, principles for my own personal re-entry post vaccination:

1. Based on the vaccine trial results, after my remaining 14 days, I do not expect to contract COVID myself.  Even though there is a 1/20 chance I'll be in that unlucky 5% if exposed (and even though 1/20 is REALLY HIGH ODDS compared to, say, getting hit by a bus or attacked by a shark or mugged on a city street).  So I will start venturing out to activities and contacts I haven't done in a year: particularly with family members and close friends that I know, with certainty, have also been vaccinated.  I will start doing outdoor dining regularly as soon as the weather permits.
2. Because it's not just about vaccinated-and-protected me, but also about others who have not yet been able to get appointments, I will continue to limit my indoor activities and I will certainly mask when I do venture in.  That will continue until everyone in my state who wants a vaccination has been able to get one.  We just opened eligibility today to everyone 16+, so there has been a HUGE run on appointments: at this point, here, demand for vaccines > supply.  CT is doing comparatively well on deployment, but we're still only at 28% vaccination. (scroll down to click on your state)... so we have a long way to go before we approach herd immunity.
3. Because of the rapid spread of new variants in my area, and because it is not clear whether I myself may be a transmitter even if I am not myself ill, I will do my part to uphold my relay in the Great Race.  I will continue to forego large indoor gatherings or indoor dining.  I will stay off planes.  I will largely continue deliveries and curbside with the businesses that have kept us going over the last year, though I will also start making forays into places I've particularly missed.
4. Because it's not just about vaccinated-and-protected me, I'll continue to mask indoors.  Whether or not our mandate stays in place (I expect it will). For the sake of the "essential workers" who are in those spaces all day long, and do not need my exhalations which may -- the data is not yet conclusive -- carry the virus even though I am not myself sick.
5. To mitigate the risk that SUBSEQUENT variants emerge, I will actively support/advocate for immediate policies and practices that "nudge" people toward vaccines -- pharmacy gift cards, free Krispy Kreme donuts, etc.  I support the use of taxpayer rebates to encourage pharmacies and Krispy Kreme and etc to implement them.
6. So long as we're still in the Great Race against variants mode, I'm OK with mechanisms like New York recently announced, requiring proof of vaccination for entrance into large indoor spaces like Madison Square Garden.   I do appreciate why they irritate people.  Nonetheless: attending a basketball game is a choice and a privilege, not a right.  And we have not licked this yet.

[ktgrok]

In my own life, being vaccinated will change my interactions only in that I will now feel okay being umasked in a small gathering of other fully vaccinated people. I will continue to mask in the general public. I will, however, possibly attend church (masking and social distancing in place), get a massage (masked), and start buying my own groceries instead of ordering delivery. 

I have unvaccinated kids so still spraying down my groceries with peroxide since they will get into them immediately. 

[Pen]

12 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

OP, I do not know your history and I do not expect yours in return for telling you mine.

I am first generation immigrant from an Asian country, from a family that was devastated by TB in my grandparents generation. Young mothers with children died so much so that my grandparents raised some nieces and nephews on both sides who were parceled out to families. The husbands of the women who died never recovered. They could not pick up the pieces, it could be several reasons I do not know for they were not diagnosed or given help. 

My grandparents were uber clean. If you think sanitizing using bleach is over the line, I grew up with my grandparents boiling sheets to wash them in we had fever to sanitize, cleaning coins in warm water, any coin we used. This was two generations after TB and the vaccine was found. No one in my family died of TB after the vaccine. I used to laugh at them because I found it funny because who does that. Now I find myself thinking of them while I sanitize with bleach, my grandmother especially as my heart hurts for them because it speaks of so much trauma that lasted a lifetime. I was raised with teaching me how to clean food, clean floors, clean, clean, clean. They were fastidious. 
 

 

There was a TB outbreak in NYC when I lived there. And it was a city where it was nearly impossible to keep things so clean like that, or at least, I know no one who did. 
 

I think most people did not catch TB with the help of the sterilizing effects of sunlight plus especially the benefits of fairly good nutrition and immune systems.   
 

12 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

The questioning person in me looked for efficacy, evaluated the risks, wanted all information because I wanted to know, I wanted to question and have the information to make an informed decision.  
 

 Good. 

12 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

 

My father just went and took a vaccine. He was so grateful. I asked him why because I was studying up on the vaccines he had access to and wanted to help him and my mom make an informed decision. My parents were one of the first to go and get the vaccine after it was opened up to the general public after healthcare workers. My dad told me he wanted to take it because he grew up with cousins who lost their parents and so he knew a vaccine, any vaccine had risks but he also knew the benefits and wanted to do his part. I cried.

 

that’s a moving sweet story

 

i hope he has made the correct decision 

 

I am not sure what vaccine they are using in India.   Maybe it is one with a longer history of that type of vaccine being used relatively safely. 
 

 

12 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

I also come from a family with a lot of health care workers around the globe. I have seen first hand the experiences of them while they isolated from family, how they dealt with death of patients and colleagues, the fear, the helplessness, the guilt. My BIL is one of the strongest people I know, he sobbed to my husband almost every day after his shift for a period of time. He was one of the first to take the vaccine. His emotional health is so much better now that he can be with his family again.

 

my family also has a lot of health care workers 

the dilemma about whether to take one of the vaccines or not is especially significant for them

 

12 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

Unless you are a person who does not interact with anyone, does not go to a doctor, have no family or friends visit you, hug a friend or hold hands with them I cannot think of a scenario where a vaccine will not make your life easier. What you describe is not my reality or anyone else's I know. 

Easier, at least short term, yes. It probably makes life easier short term. For those who don’t have bad early reactions anyway.

 

”Easier” is not always the best.   
 

I again urge everyone to do the research for him or herself. Either choice could be a life/death one. 

 
 

[Pen]

10 hours ago, Pen said:

In the event that Geert Vanden Bossche and others are correct that getting the vaccine turns people into breeding grounds for mutated (and perhaps more deadly) strains of virus, it is probably a good thing that many people getting the vaccine are being ultra careful, double masking, bleaching, and more. 
 

I had thought everyone I personally knew who had gotten vaccinated was doing okay with it other than temporary reactions, but I am no longer sure that’s the case. 

to those of you who are putting “confused” emojis, if confused by first part, I suggest you use his name to look up his open letter . Or perhaps also videos.

 

if you are confused by my second paragraph, my father took a turn for the worse after his second dose, but it is not clear if the vaccine was causative or contributory or totally irrelevant to the problems. 

[Pam in CT]

11 minutes ago, kand said:

I don’t know if your “promising” includes this week’s data, but I think it looks more than promising after this week’s news. Real world data on essential workers vaccinated with Pfizer or Moderna found a 90% reduction in being infected at all (meaning the vaccinated participants continued to test negative every week throughout the study). If people aren’t carrying the virus, they can’t transmit it, so I feel extremely encouraged by that that the mRNA vaccines are looking like they will squash transmission. (Among the small number vaccinated participants who did still get a positive test in that time period, none of them had serious illness.)

 

eta: Reading this back, it almost sounds like I’m being rude or something with my use of promising in quotes 😳. I hope it’s not coming across that way. I expect it’s likely you’ve already read the study I’m talking about, Pam, but I wanted to make sure the info was there for people who may not have seen it.

No worries!  Yes, I saw this week's study and I really do mean promising, quotes or no!