Purpose / Meaning / Joy - Some kind of framework?

[Frances]

Just now, regentrude said:

so what would be the meaning of life of a person who cannot do that? Does such life not have inherent meaning?
Or is their existence only meaningful because it provides others a way to derive meaning?

I was only answering for me, so I haven’t thought about someone who can’t do that in any way. I don’t think the meaning of life is the same for everyone. For example, I’m not religious, and I would assume that the meaning of life for most religious people is somehow centered around their God. Obviously that’s not going to apply to me.

[iamonlyone]

I was thinking along the same lines as, klmama: how our primary purpose is to glorify God. How "in [His] book all the days of my life were written, when as yet there were none of them." And how we are created for "good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."

I also sometimes struggle working this out in my life, now that our children are grown and not home. I recently studied through "The Armor of God" study by Shirer with some college friends. It reminded me to consider what is holding me back from being fully alive. For me, one of those things is fear of getting it wrong. So, I've been putting out more feelers and taking more risks (not that this applies to you, OP).

I am, by nature, an encourager, so I try to Zoom, text, send encouraging notes, etc. These are small things, but I think they can be important during the pandemic especially.

I hope you find more purpose/identity going forward. I definitely share the struggle!

[J-rap]

20 minutes ago, Frances said:

I’ve also dreamed of that type of living, even though I’m a very strong introvert. The absolute best housing situation I ever experienced was when my husband and I were RAs in an international housing complex while he was in grad school. The second best was one summer when I was in grad school and we rented a room in a house with complete strangers and we all quickly became very close. We cooked and ate dinner together most nights and also went out together to do fun stuff. 

I agree with your experiences...  Some of my most meaningful housing experiences were when we have lived abroad within a small community of others, often expats, but not always and certainly not all Americans.  Just a random group of people who ended up living in close quarters to each other and forging a close bond.  We often didn't even have much in common otherwise (as far as how we'd typically look for groups), but a type of bond is formed where you really support each other and are there for each other, and it was always so refreshing!

[Jenny in Florida]

1 hour ago, Frances said:

Would you be interested in working to make a difference in the lives of other children or teens? Do you think that would give you meaning? Two volunteer gigs I would like to pursue here when I’m not working full-time are being a court appointed special advocate (CASA) for youth going through the foster system and volunteering at the local high school program that helps teens as they investigate and pursue careers, colleges, scholarships, etc.

See, it's the "when I'm not working full-time" thing that's the glitch. I do work full-time (at a job I chose in part because I do believe that, underneath the corporate concerns, I am helping to provide a valuable resource to people).

That is one of a list of aspects of my life that limit my opportunities to explore some things I might otherwise attempt. For example, I have a variety of health concerns that demand a certain amount of time and resources. Only because my employer and my direct management have been incredibly patient and accommodating have I been able to continue working full-time while juggling more doctor's appointments than I can to count for the last 18 months. I am entitled to a few hours of leave each year that are specifically tagged for volunteering/community service done during regular work hours. However, I save those to "spend" on a couple of volunteer things I do every year. 

I also have a husband who has some chronic pain and assorted emotional stuff he's trying to address. He's got a wonderful heart, but is easily overwhelmed and stressed. So, I have to be careful how much I impose on him. (At the moment, although my son has moved out, we still have his ex-girlfriend living with us. She's not a lot of trouble these days -- it's sometimes hard to tell if she's even home -- but my husband still finds it uncomfortable to have another person in the house.) So, foster care of either humans or animals, and similar commitments are not things I can take on.

We live in a rental home and already have our limit of (adopted and rescued) animals. My dog is not friendly with other beasts. I keep an eye on the pets in my neighborhood and have escorted home a fair number of wanderers, but I can't bring home any of them.

I have reached out and put myself on the list for volunteer training at a local organization I have supported for several years. Right now, they are not doing any in-person stuff, but I do follow their newsletters and jump in when I can. They actually just put out a plea for holiday donations, so my husband and I are going shopping tomorrow to pick up some things. We're adopting a family for the holidays through the same group.

So, much of my "helping" ends up boiling down to giving money. When I moved from working at a non-profit (county library) to this corporate gig, I got a nice bump in salary. One way I salved my sadness about leaving the library behind was to pledge to donate at least a percentage of the difference between what I made at the library and what I now make to local non-profit organizations.  When I get a raise, they get one, too. It's not now and will never be a ton of money, but I know they appreciate the steady stream of monthly income. And that's great, and I know that, in many cases, just giving a group bucks for them to spend in thoughtful and strategic ways is bottom-line more valuable and efficient than some amateur showing up on their doorstep to help. 

But it somehow doesn't look like "purpose" to me.

Edited November 14, 2020 by Jenny in Florida

[Calm37]

21 minutes ago, Jenny in Florida said:

I would agree with much of what you wrote, except that I would add the words "for me" in a few places.

"For me, the single most important thing I will do in my life is raise my children."

"For me, nothing is more important than embracing parenting and home-educating in the all-in way I did. Nothing will ever have the same level of  meaning again for me."

After struggling with the issue for going on six or seven years now, I recognize the fact that this is true for me. I acknowledge I will not likely ever find anything as fulfilling (and exhausting and crazy-making and stressful) as parenting/homeschooling. But I'm still trying to find something besides taking the dog outside to pee that makes it worth getting out of bed in the morning.

Jenny, I have struggled for as long, too, and am in complete agreement with your "for me" statements. I realized at some point a year ago (after surviving a major depressive episode) that I just needed time to grieve, accept and move on. My mil had warned me years ago that it would be like this. She said at the time, "The best years of my life are over now." I tried to argue with her, but she assured me it was true, just a fact. 

I thought I had finally found a purpose for this new season earlier in the year, but Covid took it all away. Gone for now at least and very unlikely to return in the same form. So.....!!!!! 🙂 

One of the little joys I have right now is in searching out and doing new things. It may look like visiting a city I never visited, taking a path on a walk I haven't tried, whatever. My husband and I climbed down to a beach that we've been seeing on our Covid walking path and explored that two weeks ago. Anyway, just random DIFFERENT is doing me some good right now. For my birthday yesterday I made a puzzle, lit a candle, played old video games, and went out to walk at a place that I had stopped using because it hurt my knees. My husband brought home a waffle maker of all things and we all had waffles for my birthday dinner. My daughter hid new ice cube trays all around the house for me to find. Now I won't have to soak my old trays to get the ice out! It was a good day.

I have actually started working out for the first time in my life! Ktgrok mentioned "Walk At Home" and I have been doing that. One of the reasons that I tried that walk yesterday was to test out the new strength in my knees!

I have been growing in my faith, too, and have gotten back to a part-time prayer ministry.

One day at a time. Here's to more good days!

[Jenny in Florida]

39 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Jenny, I hope you don't mind me saying so many things here in your thread... I have been thinking about this so much.

For the many folks who have suggested volunteering and finding people to help: do you consider the inherent meaning and purpose of life to be needed by other people? 

 

No, please, I love that you're in here wrestling with these questions, too. 

For me, being of service to others (which is not the same as being "needed" and is not limited to "other people") is absolutely a big part of my sense of my inherent purpose.

[J-rap]

19 minutes ago, regentrude said:

so what would be the meaning of life of a person who cannot do that? Does such life not have inherent meaning?
Or is their existence only meaningful because it provides others a way to derive meaning?

I've spent the last several years thinking about these questions...  and I keep coming back around to my faith, which I believe teaches that the bottom line meaning of life is love.  That includes being valued.  And not just any love, but a self-sacrificial type of love.  For most people and for much of their lives, we can hopefully be on both the giving and receiving end of that.  At some point, we will ALL only be on the receiving end of that.  Some will only be on the receiving end of that their entire lives, but their lives can still be valued and that gives immense meaning.  At least, that's how I think of it.

[SKL]

Have you ever read about the four stages of life in Hinduism?  Here is the first quick link I found: https://www.hinduamerican.org/blog/what-are-the-four-stages-of-hindu-life/ but I read a lot about this years ago in greater depth.

I think it's more focused on a man's life, but it can be applied to a woman's too.  Basically it is time for you to move from Grihastha (householder) to Vanaprastha (retired, stage 3), and gradually work toward Sannyasa (renunciation).  Wise people over many years have given this transition and upcoming purpose a lot of thought, so it might be interesting / helpful to read what they have to say.

Edited November 14, 2020 by SKL

[KathyBC]

24 minutes ago, Jenny in Florida said:

See, it's the "when I'm not working full-time" thing that's the glitch. I do work full-time (at a job I chose in part because I do believe that, underneath the corporate concerns, I am helping to provide a valuable resource to people).

That is one of a list of aspects of my life that limit my opportunities to explore some things I might otherwise attempt. For example, I have a variety of health concerns that demand a certain amount of time and resources. Only because my employer and my direct management have been incredibly patient and accommodating have I been able to continue working full-time while juggling more doctor's appointments than I can to count for the last 18 months. I am entitled to a few hours of leave each year that are specifically tagged for volunteering/community service done during regular work hours. However, I save those to "spend" on a couple of volunteer things I do every year. 

I also have a husband who has some chronic pain and an assorted of emotional stuff he's trying to address. He's got a wonderful heart, but is easily overwhelmed and stressed. So, I have to be careful how much I impose on him. (At the moment, although my son has moved out, we still have his ex-girlfriend living with us. She's not a lot of trouble these days -- it's sometimes hard to tell if she's even home -- but my husband still finds it uncomfortable to have another person in the house.) So, foster care of either humans or animals, and similar commitments are not things I can take on.

We live in a rental home and already have our limit of (adopted and rescued) animals. My dog is not friendly with other beasts. I keep an eye on the pets in my neighborhood and have escorted home a fair number of wanderers, but I can't bring home any of them.

I have reached out and put myself on the list for volunteer training at a local organization I have supported for several years. Right now, they are not doing any in-person stuff, but I do follow their newsletters and jump in when I can. They actually just put out a plea for holiday donations, so my husband and I are going shopping tomorrow to pick up some things. We're adopting a family for the holidays through the same group.

So, much of my "helping" ends up boiling down to giving money. When I moved from working at a non-profit (county library) to this corporate gig, I got a nice bump in salary. One way I salved my sadness about leaving the library behind was to pledge to donate at least a percentage of the difference between what I made at the library and what I now make to local non-profit organizations.  When I get a raise, they get one, too. It's not now and will never be a ton of money, but I know they appreciate the steady stream of monthly income. And that's great, and I know that, in many cases, just giving a group bucks for them to spend in thoughtful and strategic ways is bottom-line more valuable and efficient than some amateur showing up on their doorstep to help. 

But it somehow doesn't look like "purpose" to me.

Would it add more meaning if you were on the board of a charity, helping to decide where donations might do the most good? You could also apply thought to making a targeted difference?

[Jenny in Florida]

5 hours ago, ktgrok said:

I'm wondering if lack of purpose is fueling the existential depression or if the depression is fueling the lack of purpose? I'd be careful as to which way I was thinking it went. If the depression is better controlled perhaps the feeling of purpose will be easier to find?

That said, what things, prior to all this, did you feel passionate about? Or, could you do some kind of rotation through some volunteer causes to find one that strikes your fancy now? Given that motherhood was your purpose before I'm leaning toward areas where you serve others, rather than hobbies where you are enjoying yourself, if that makes sense. 

But I'm also concerned that nothing will feel like a purpose or something you could be passionate about while you are dealing with depression. 

Not to be a bummer, lol, but wondering if you are trying to fix a biochemical problem with a spiritual solution. 

As Regentrude said, my flailing/lack of meaning started well before the depression kicked in. And all of the professionals with whom I have spoken -- as well as friends and family members who have weighed in -- agree that the sense of lacking purpose is contributing to, if not causing, the depression.  I have always had what I think of as depressive tendencies, but I find that I only really dip into depression when I am stuck in a situation that is especially difficult. And I have to say that this go-round is so much worse than any depressive episode I have had before that I tend to think I was never actually depressed. I'm a lot more careful about how I use that word now that I know what depression really feels like.

Interestingly, the last two counselors I have worked with for any period of time have both essentially come up against a wall and admitted they don't know how to help me. The first one finally just agreed that my situation was upsetting and difficult, kept recommending "self-care" but couldn't ever help me figure out what that would look like for me. The second one is the one who said in what turned out to be our second-to-last session that he had just realized that my problem is not psychological but existential. Then he kind of seemed stumped about what to do next.

In terms of what I used to be passionate about? Interesting question. I've always derived satisfaction from being of service in some way. I used to spend a fair amount of most events at the various churches I attended washing dishes and putting away chairs. I did teach Sunday school for about a decade and served on various church committees and ran events, which I loved and hated in about equal parts but always felt were important. 

Education, in general, both learning for myself and helping others learn.

Other than that, I would say I had some passionate interests, but not really "passions." I loved reading and literature. I loved theatre and good films. 

I think the problem I'm having is that some of those things are no longer important to me, some are no longer available to me for various reasons and some just feel "played out." 

I look back on a lot of stuff that I felt like I cared about before kids, and while some of it may be interesting or amusing or pass the time, none of it feels particularly meaningful anymore. I really feel like I found my purpose in being a mom -- surprising no one more than me, by the way -- and that everything else pales in comparison. 

Edited November 14, 2020 by Jenny in Florida

[Jenny in Florida]

1 hour ago, klmama said:

I keep coming back to the catechism:

What is man's primary purpose?  Man's primary purpose is to glorify God and to enjoy him forever.  

That begs the question of how exactly does one glorify God?  Jesus's answer in Mark 12:30-31 to being asked about the greatest commandment seems to address that:

29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’  There is no commandment greater than these.”

 

And despite the fact that I am not a Christian in any traditional sense that most folks would recognize, I resonate with those basic ideals. I guess I just need a little more help with the "how" part of it.

[regentrude]

3 minutes ago, Jenny in Florida said:

Interestingly, the last two counselors I have worked with for any period of time have both essentially come up against a wall and admitted they don't know how to help me. The first one finally just agreed that my situation was upsetting and difficult, kept recommending "self-care" but couldn't ever help me figure out what that would look like for me. The second one is the one who said in what turned out to be our second-to-last session that he had just realized that my problem is not psychological but existential. Then he kind of seemed stumped about what to do next.

Oh man, that sounds familiar. First one pushed meds even though I had made it clear that I am not considering them. Second spent months suggesting I think about things about which I had already extensively thought and written (frankly, I don't think she was particularly smart). Third one flat out told me in the initial session that she cannot help me because she does not think I am depressed enough, and that I have all the information to know what I need to do. Gee, thanks.

[MercyA]

2 hours ago, EKS said:

I'm right there with you.

Lately, I've begun to realize that the reason everything else seems to be time filling rather than fulfilling a purpose is that the single most important thing one does in life is raise children.  It is what links past to future and is literally what it means to be human.  Everything else is contrived.  Our society does its best to tell people that raising children is, at best, a side gig, but homeschooling parents who are all-in embrace the truth of the importance of parenting every single day.  And once the truth is seen, it can't be unseen.

I guess what I'm saying here is that perhaps you feel the way you do because it's true--that, when it comes to meaning, there is nothing more important than parenting.  Perhaps acknowledging that nothing can ever have the same level of meaning again would free you to experience other activities on their own terms.

I say this as much to myself as to you.

As someone who was unable to have children for many years, and as a Christian who finds purpose in service and obedience to God, and as a human being with intrinsic worth of my own, I beg to differ. 🙂 

Edited November 14, 2020 by MercyA

[Jenny in Florida]

29 minutes ago, KathyBC said:

Would it add more meaning if you were on the board of a charity, helping to decide where donations might do the most good? You could also apply thought to making a targeted difference?

I have had a few people suggest that to me. I intended to apply to join the community advisory board of the local public radio station, but then I broke my arm and came down with the whole vertigo thing and got overwhelmed and tired and missed the deadline. I'm not averse to the concept, but I haven't seen a lot of those opportunities with organizations I support.

[Calm37]

7 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Third one flat out told me in the initial session that she cannot help me because she does not think I am depressed enough, and that I have all the information to know what I need to do. Gee, thanks.

I mean, I get that. I have sort of "known" all along that I needed to "buck up" (a favorite saying in dh's family).  It's just that I honestly can't, and that I feel physically crummy all the time.

[KathyBC]

Stoic philosophy has been on my radar for a bit. Man's burden in life, at least sometimes, is to suffer. And the idea of purpose can be joy in the good times, but can also be something that makes the suffering meaningful. So letting the dog out to pee, providing shelter for your child's friend, doing the work to heal your body, going to work to pay down debt... these can be the things that drag you out of bed in the hard times, propelling you along until life moves into a less painful phase.

At least that's the premise as I understand it.

[Jean in Newcastle]

My meaning and purpose is found in my personal relationship with God.  This hasn't kept me from having some seriously difficult years recently.  And it hasn't kept me from floundering a bit after being "retired" from active mothering and homeschooling (though I am coming out of that and as someone else mentioned, have been going back to some of my old interests).  But while things have been tough for me for a number of reasons, I have still felt solace and meaning in God.  It's provided me a perspective that is bigger than myself and my own insignificant place in this world. 

[lewelma]

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

Jenny, I hope you don't mind me saying so many things here in your thread... I have been thinking about this so much.

For the many folks who have suggested volunteering and finding people to help: do you consider the inherent meaning and purpose of life to be needed by other people? 

 

No, but helping my teens gives me joy.  But as for inherent meaning, I do not need to be special, I do not need to actually even have meaning.  It is enough to be.  I focus on being satisfied. Satisfied with my health, my looks, my husband, my house, my children, etc.  There does not need to be a point to life.  I do not need a purpose. I can just be.  I can do what I love, which is to learn.  My father calls me a scholar. My life is enough. I do not need more. 

[Carol in Cal.]

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

Jenny, I hope you don't mind me saying so many things here in your thread... I have been thinking about this so much.

For the many folks who have suggested volunteering and finding people to help: do you consider the inherent meaning and purpose of life to be needed by other people? 

 

Not necessarily, but if that's a really key skillset for a particular person, it's a great way to use that accummulated wisdom ongoing beyond child raising.

[ktgrok]

3 hours ago, regentrude said:

OTOH, it won't help trying to fix a spiritual problem by throwing medication at it. 
The fact that a crisis of meaning is fairly common in our age group seems to suggest that there may be more to it than a chemical imbalance (and it is not actually understood what depression even is - the lack of serotonin is a hypothesis that has not been conclusively substantiated.)
I am in a similar situation as the OP, and my crisis of purpose definitely predated the depression. It just feels different.

Oh, absolutely it can be either direction. Was just encouraging her to look hard at chicken/egg timing 🙂

2 hours ago, EKS said:

I'm right there with you.

Lately, I've begun to realize that the reason everything else seems to be time filling rather than fulfilling a purpose is that the single most important thing one does in life is raise children. 

In a broader sense, I'd say "to help my society". So that may be raising children, or helping care for the elderly, or some other thing. But working in and participating in a real society. 

 

2 hours ago, J-rap said:

I think this is very astute.   I don't think having children is necessarily what is most essential (although it certainly is if you are a parent), but rather, being a very valued and necessary part of a family group (or family-like group), which might play out in having children, or other roles within that group.  And it's why I lament how the world has changed in some ways...  Long ago, after your children were grown, or after you became an adult, you were still living within your traditional family group where you then become grandparents, or perhaps mentors, or numerous other roles which were important and necessary in order for the group to continue to function in a healthy way.   So you were still part of a big, close family or group that shared its meals together and lived life together.  You still had roles that were expected of you, and you still felt busy and useful, necessary and valued.

Now, in our independent society, children move on and being part of their parents' lives is more of a peripheral role, and each small-family group is mostly on their own.   Or, if not married or without children, you are still expected to move on and be independent.  Sometimes I dream about living in a type of commune, where we all have our own small homes within a village square but still live life together, sharing a meal together everyday in a big central kitchen, and with lots of overlaps all day long where we're with each other, helping each other, encouraging each other, enjoying each other.    

so much this!!! I often watch videos of the Bruderhoff and other groups, and realize how much they get right (not everything!). 

I also value the smaller societies, like the Amish, where community has a specific, limited size. Our brains struggle with giant cities of people versus a community. 

and I think, Jenny, part of this was losing your community, if it was the homeschool world/drama/dance world? and around the same time your family had so many issues, making even your nuclear "community" not feel safe?

Could you continue to work in that world in some way? 

Or, alternately, could you and your husband shift your lives to be closer or more involved in the lives of your family - maybe your children but maybe extended family?

 

1 hour ago, Jenny in Florida said:

No, please, I love that you're in here wrestling with these questions, too. 

For me, being of service to others (which is not the same as being "needed" and is not limited to "other people") is absolutely a big part of my sense of my inherent purpose.

With Covid finding ways to serve others is hard! 

Have you looked into online volunteer work? Crowdsourcing and such? https://www.volunteermatch.org/virtual-volunteering

Or do you need to consider a different job, where you feel more like you are contributing and important?

 

[annandatje]

Life itself has no inherent purpose.  To make life meaningful, you will need to do something that is meaningful to you.  What causes are important enough to you to sacrifice time and energy on?  You seem quite self-aware and adept at internal dialoguing to find these often elusive answers.

[Carol in Cal.]

2 hours ago, regentrude said:

Much of what is suggested to find purpose and meaning centers on doing something. But I have lately been wondering: what if that is the wrong avenue to explore? I can do things that are worthwhile, keep busy by more doing and achieving - but what if there is an innate meaning and purpose in just Being? I am by no means able to embrace that yet, but studying Zen has me thinking of all beings being connected and part of the fabric of the universe and that perhaps being enough of a reason for living.
There is a whole philosophical issue with the purpose-by-doing: what does that mean for the meaning of a person who cannot do/achieve/accomplish? Is there meaning to life when one is "useless"? Is there meaning at all?

See my earlier answer.  That's just where I landed.  I am enough.

For me this goes back to the Christian (Lutheran) concept of vocation.  We have various callings in life, and sometimes those are 'giving' callings and sometimes they are 'receiving' callings, and sometimes they are both.  But our overarching calling is to be in fellowship with God and to serve Him in our vocations.  

And, He gives us things not just to use wisely and well, but also to enjoy.  (That enjoyment part is something I've realized kind of lately, like within

maybe the past five years.  It's a bit of a paradigm shift for me.)  (Reference is I Tim. 6:  "¹⁷ As for the rich in this present age, charge them not to be haughty, nor to set their hopes on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly provides us with everything to enjoy. ¹⁸ They are to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, ¹⁹ thus storing up treasure for themselves as a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is truly life."  It refers to 'the rich' but let's face it, by world standards that's what we all are, even if we don't feel that way.)

Soooo, I know this is not everyone's cup of tea but it's the truth of my situation.  And it makes a big difference in how I feel about purpose and meaning.

 

Also, actually, I've been through this before.  My whole childhood I was focussed on college.  Once I graduated, it was a real let down, because that was The Big Goal pretty much as far back as I could remember.  This was the case even though I had a great job lined up, and was moving across the country, and was pretty psyched to start my new life.  Then when I was working in engineering I developed a couple more big goals to strive for.  And the idea of being home with kids was unimaginable at that time--I would have felt so trapped, and like I had no goal to work for, and that would have meant a meaningless, miserable, depressed life.  But thankfully I got to those goals before I got pregnant, so I could move on without regret.  And so later when I stopped homeschooling, and later than that when Dd went off to college, the issue was hard but it was also familiar and I kind of knew how to think about it differently, and that the let down would subside in a year or two.  I kind of buffered it a bit, too.  I organized some education related volunteer work for myself that I really enjoyed while DD was in high school (brick and mortar) and I also have helped with starting a unique and remote rural school, both things that took advantage of my years of working in education and reflecting on how to do it best, but did not consume my life the way homeschooling did.  Deeply satisfying, and less distorting--very nice.

[Carol in Cal.]

1 hour ago, Jenny in Florida said:

 

So, much of my "helping" ends up boiling down to giving money. When I moved from working at a non-profit (county library) to this corporate gig, I got a nice bump in salary. One way I salved my sadness about leaving the library behind was to pledge to donate at least a percentage of the difference between what I made at the library and what I now make to local non-profit organizations.  When I get a raise, they get one, too. It's not now and will never be a ton of money, but I know they appreciate the steady stream of monthly income. And that's great, and I know that, in many cases, just giving a group bucks for them to spend in thoughtful and strategic ways is bottom-line more valuable and efficient than some amateur showing up on their doorstep to help. 

But it somehow doesn't look like "purpose" to me.

Did you ever read "Rose in Bloom" by Louisa May Alcott?  It's one of her less well known books but it's interesting in that she proposes ways to live well.  She is known for children's books but this one is more about adults.  Anyway, one of the major themes is that even a wealthy person should have a profession in life, and in this book an heiress chooses philanthropy as hers.  I think that that is a great way to think about this.  Philanthropy, thoughtfully done, is really a big and meaningful commitment.

[lewelma]

50 minutes ago, Jenny in Florida said:

Interestingly, the last two counselors I have worked with for any period of time have both essentially come up against a wall and admitted they don't know how to help me. The first one finally just agreed that my situation was upsetting and difficult, kept recommending "self-care" but couldn't ever help me figure out what that would look like for me. The second one is the one who said in what turned out to be our second-to-last session that he had just realized that my problem is not psychological but existential. Then he kind of seemed stumped about what to do next.

I had a severe OCD episode about 13 years ago that required me to learn new mental skills.  I was in what is known as Pure O, where I had the obsession without the compulsion and it consumed every single waking moment.  I thought I was going crazy and it lasted about 6 months.  Nothing I was advised to do worked.  It did not help to argue with myself that my obsession about being not good enough was ridiculous.  Keeping journals, working through tasks, all failed. My mind was in a loop that was unbreakable, and I came to believe the more I tried to rationalize my way out, the stronger the connections became.  So I chose to break the connections.  I decided to never let myself think those bad thoughts.  When they came (which was at first at every moment), I would do whatever it took to stop thinking those thoughts.  I would focus on the wind in my hair, or the feel of fabric under my fingers.  I would focus and focus to stop thinking about bad things.  I quit analyzing my thoughts and focused on stopping them.  It took 3 months, but I rewired my brain.  The connections and loops were broken for good, and I learned powerful skills to stop bad thoughts. When I have a thought that I do not want, I lock it down.  I over power it with my mind.  I can do this in a microsecond now.  

I bring this up because perhaps if thinking about all this stuff has not worked, maybe it is time to stop thinking about it.  I don't need a purpose. I can just be.  I can find joy in every tiny little thing in my life because I am not consumed with looking for more. 

[Carol in Cal.]

12 minutes ago, annandatje said:

Life itself has no inherent purpose.  To make life meaningful, you will need to do something that is meaningful to you.  What causes are important enough to you to sacrifice time and energy on?  You seem quite self-aware and adept at internal dialoguing to find these often elusive answers.

Not necessarily.  For instance, an invalid's vocation might be to be cared for, which provides others with their vocations of caring, and to bear up under distress, which provides others with a good example, and to endure to the end.  Those are not really 'doing' things but more 'being' things, but they are valid and make for a meaningful life.  (I would also add--an invalid's vocation can include praying for others and for peace, etc.  Significant for sure.)

[Carol in Cal.]

To the OP:  It occurs to me that you might benefit from a life coach that focusses on a well-rounded, effective life.  That's a little more instructive than a counsellor, but less medicalized, and less directive than a doctor but focussed on wellness rather than merely a cure.

[regentrude]

3 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

To the OP:  It occurs to me that you might benefit from a life coach that focusses on a well-rounded, effective life.  

Carol, what does "effective" mean in this context?

[regentrude]

7 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

Not necessarily.  For instance, an invalid's vocation might be to be cared for, which provides others with their vocations of caring, and to bear up under distress, which provides others with a good example, and to endure to the end.  Those are not really 'doing' things but more 'being' things, but they are valid and make for a meaningful life.  (I would also add--an invalid's vocation can include praying for others and for peace, etc.  Significant for sure.)

So the person is on earth as a means to an end, kind of a character building pet? 

Edited November 14, 2020 by regentrude

[Carol in Cal.]

5 minutes ago, regentrude said:

So the person is on earth as a means to an end, kind of a character building pet? 

Being helpless is not being a pet.  Being helpless does not make you less than human.  There is inherent dignity to humanity.  

There is meaning and there is being.  Being is enough.  But meaning is often present in ways that we don't necessarily notice until we tune into this.

[regentrude]

13 minutes ago, lewelma said:

  I decided to never let myself think those bad thoughts.  When they came (which was at first at every moment), I would do whatever it took to stop thinking those thoughts.  I would focus on the wind in my hair, or the feel of fabric under my fingers.  I would focus and focus to stop thinking about bad things.  I quit analyzing my thoughts and focused on stopping them.  It took 3 months, but I rewired my brain.  The connections and loops were broken for good, and I learned powerful skills to stop bad thoughts. When I have a thought that I do not want, I lock it down.  I over power it with my mind.  I can do this in a microsecond now.  

Very interesting! But how does one know which of the many voices in one's mind is speaking true, and which one needs to be shut up (assuming that's even possible; it is not a skill I possess)? How does one know one is not shutting down the important voice that tells us we need to make a change, just because it is uncomfortable to hear that? How do I know that what I like to call "fat contentment" is the right way, rather than an uncomfortable and difficult road of change?

[Carol in Cal.]

8 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Carol, what does "effective" mean in this context?

It depends on the coach, but a lot of times it means progressing in several areas of life, not just one.  It's a good way to think about how to move forward sometimes when there is no overarching goal to make everything fall into place.

[bookbard]

Don't know if this will help, but years ago I went through an existential crisis, and reading about existentialism was helpful. It helped me work out for myself my own philosophy. 

[Pronghorn]

Has anyone ever started a group for ex-homeschoolers? I'm thinking it could be a local group, and perhaps it could provide some support function for current homeschoolers in a particular area. Or perhaps someone could make an online group just focused on mutual support in the difficult task of building a life after homeschooling.

I finished homeschooling  a little over a year ago. I floundered a bit, but had one very meaningful gig helping a child whose homeschooling mom had passed away. Then I started tutoring others, including disabled adults. Things got rocky when covid hit, but I learned to tutor online. And now, I have lost that first job that sustained me through my initial non-homeschooling days. The boy's dad decided to do the homeschooling. Now I am grieving the loss of that relationship. It is really hard. Tutoring is satisfying, but it is not the same as teaching your own children!

[Pawz4me]

30 minutes ago, lewelma said:

  I don't need a purpose. I can just be.  I can find joy in every tiny little thing in my life because I am not consumed with looking for more. 

I've only briefly skimmed this thread, so this might have already been mentioned and I missed it. The above is pretty much the Buddhist way of approaching life. So for anyone floundering . . perhaps consider doing some reading up on secular Buddhism?

Edited November 14, 2020 by Pawz4me

[regentrude]

32 minutes ago, lewelma said:

I don't need a purpose. I can just be.  I can find joy in every tiny little thing in my life because I am not consumed with looking for more. 

But what if you could not find joy in anything? Would you then still feel that just being is enough? 

[lewelma]

13 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Very interesting! But how does one know which of the many voices in one's mind is speaking true, and which one needs to be shut up (assuming that's even possible; it is not a skill I possess)? How does one know one is not shutting down the important voice that tells us we need to make a change, just because it is uncomfortable to hear that? How do I know that what I like to call "fat contentment" is the right way, rather than an uncomfortable and difficult road of change?

The first thing I did was lock down all negative thoughts.  All of them.  I did not judge them worthy or no.  If a thought brought up negative feelings, I got rid of it.  Once my mind was my own (took 3 full months), then I could process ideas one at a time and not be overwhelmed by them.  I could read up on an idea and evaluate it based on my life.  When I felt I had spent enough time for that day on that idea, I would lock it down.  It was a way to control how much of my life was absorbed in thinking about things that were not pleasant. Life is not all roses, and I don't avoid negative ideas. The difference is that I control how I spend my emotional energy.  I don't get consumed or overwhelmed. Because I control my mind, I decide if and when an idea is worth considering. 

[lewelma]

8 minutes ago, regentrude said:

But what if you could not find joy in anything? Would you then still feel that just being is enough? 

I am finding joy right now in how my computer keyboard feels under my fingers.  I am also finding joy in the clock ticking in the background while I hear my typing.  Joy in everyday things leads me to feeling satisfaction in life. It is enough. 

Edited November 14, 2020 by lewelma

[lewelma]

6 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

I've only briefly skimmed this thread, so this might have already been mentioned and I missed it. The above is pretty much the Buddhist way of approaching life. So for anyone floundering . . perhaps consider doing some reading up on secular Buddhism?

I've never done any reading on spiritual/religious teachings.  Interesting to hear that this way that I have developed has been discovered by others.  I am enough. My life is enough. I do not need or want more.

[regentrude]

deleted. too personal
 

 

Edited November 15, 2020 by regentrude

[lewelma]

8 hours ago, regentrude said:

 

There is a difference between *dealing* with negative things, and *worrying* about them. I am talking about not allowing my mind to go round and round on an issue with no results. 

Edited November 15, 2020 by lewelma

[lewelma]

8 hours ago, regentrude said:

 

 

I have the same set of problems that normal people do.  My dh is at risk of losing his job every single day, and there are not more jobs out there in a covid world.  My younger boy is about ready to take his first set of exams and he has dysgraphia so it is not a small issue. My sister has a compromised immune system and is require to teach in person in a covid hotspot or lose her job and there is nothing I can do from so far away. My life is not roses.  But my life is enough.  I take care of things I have to do. I limit my negative response and reframe things in a positive way.  If my dh loses his job, we are going to put him on the equivalent of the Appalachian trail for 5 months and I will increase my tutoring to pay for our expenses. We will eat beans and rice for a year. If my son fails all his exams because he writes at 9 words per minute, we will delay university by a year.  If my sister gets covid and dies, I will mourn, but it will pass.  I live in the world, and I deal with problems, but I am satisfied with my life and don't need more. I don't need a purpose. I am enough.

Edited November 15, 2020 by lewelma

[lewelma]

dp

Edited November 14, 2020 by lewelma

[lewelma]

I will also add that I learned this skill because of severe mental illness.  I am not saying it is easy to learn, but things were bad enough for me that I was willing to try anything.  Basically, I think I learned to meditate in some nontraditional way. 

[lewelma]

1 minute ago, Patty Joanna said:

The nut of what helped me was to figure out that my identity was not in my role but in my soul

I'm not sure that I have an 'identity.' I'm not sure I need one.  I live my life finding joy in small things. I am mindful.  I am caregiver, a teacher, and a scholar. But none of those things define me.  I enjoy staying fit, eating well, and studying chemistry and economics. But they also don't define me.  I love my children and my husband and my family who is so far away.  But when you sum all this up, I just wouldn't call it an identity.  I live. I am satisfied. It is enough.  

[LauraClark]

1 hour ago, Jenny in Florida said:

And despite the fact that I am not a Christian in any traditional sense that most folks would recognize, I resonate with those basic ideals. I guess I just need a little more help with the "how" part of it.

I'm sorry you're going through this.  I think at some level we can all relate.  I still have young kids and I'm busily trying to educate them, which keeps me busy, but even still I find myself wondering if I'm doing enough and if my life even matters.  But, that is not truth talking and I need to remind myself of truth.  John Piper changes the catechism a bit to: the purpose of man is to glorify God by enjoying Him forever.  That fits so much better to the Biblical perspective of who God is.  He is a God to be enjoyed - and that is how we glorify Him.  How do we enjoy Him?  In every way.  Taking a walk and enjoying His creation (and thanking Him for it), washing dishes because it is a thing that serves your family (and that is where He has you right now), doing any of the tasks He has given you.  And doing it not in an endless cycle of trying to do good (and it never being enough), but doing it because God wants to be enjoyed. 

I think the "how" is also tricky because we really want to see the big picture and specifically how we fit in.  But, we are not given that knowledge.  We are to do the tasks we are to do and trust that in the end it will all make sense and work out to the good.  Job is a fantastic read in that type of thinking.  

And I'm totally not saying any of this as a person who does this all the time and has it all together.  I just know that I have been in those moments described above and it is amazing when I am trusting in God and enjoying Him completely.  

[Carol in Cal.]

7 minutes ago, Patty Joanna said:

I probably mean at least mostly the same thing.  I don't have all the words down right, but this is along the lines of where I was going, at least in a somewhat parallel path.  "Identity" probably has a different meaning these days so maybe I will have to find a new word.  (I actually have the word for it but it would be the work of a few hours to explain and a thread derailment and interesting to about 2 people, so I'll pass for now.)

As one of the two people who would find this interesting, I would love to know what word you are thinking of.

[easypeasy]

5 hours ago, PrincessMommy said:

I know it is because I invested all these years in raising my kids and being home and now I'm forced into retirement.  Plus, there's the added bonus of watching some of the kids make bad decisions and I feel like I've failed at the one job I had.  😞 

For ME, this is the hardest part of having homeschooled. Every decision my kids make, I feel is a reflection of my entire life's career. lol So, good decisions, I breathe a sigh of relief and look back fondly at the lessons I taught and the moments we shared together. A bad choice? OMG, my whole world seems to unravel... where did I go wrong?!? I'm getting better as they're crossing further into full-adulthood, but it's been a journey! lol

 

3 hours ago, regentrude said:

For the many folks who have suggested volunteering and finding people to help: do you consider the inherent meaning and purpose of life to be needed by other people?

No, not to be "needed" by other people. I don't believe that life HAS meaning or purpose except what we assign to it.

For me, I generally try to leave things (whatever they may be at the time) better/healthier/neater/more fun/more organized/whatever than when I arrived. So, I volunteer a lot. I help where I am asked, or where I see a need.

[Pawz4me]

35 minutes ago, lewelma said:

I will also add that I learned this skill because of severe mental illness.  I am not saying it is easy to learn, but things were bad enough for me that I was willing to try anything.  Basically, I think I learned to meditate in some nontraditional way. 

Yes, I think that's exactly what you've done. And according to what I've read of Buddhist philosophy that's absolutely possible. The goal of meditation is really to control ones mind/thoughts and re-frame the way we "see" events. You can do that by formal meditation, and/or by being consciously aware of your wandering/intrusive thoughts throughout the day. I suspect that would work the best done as a whole, but I've done the same thing as you (I think)--without formal meditation. For me it was a very slow, gradual process that took several years (and is still a work in progress). It's served me well over the course of 2020. Not only am I dealing with the same pandemic issues as everyone else, but my husband has stage IV cancer that has recently progressed. I honestly don't know how I would have survived this year w/o the skills I've learned from studying Buddhist thought and learning how traitorous ones mind can be. I certainly have times of feeling utter despair, but being able to realize what my mind is doing and bringing my attention back to enjoying the *right now* has truly been a sanity saver. 

Edited November 14, 2020 by Pawz4me

[lewelma]

13 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

For me it was a very slow, gradual process that took several years (and is still a work in progress). 

I think my mastery of the skill was accelerated because I worked on it for about 15 hours per day and under duress, so I was very very motivated. 

[lewelma]

18 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

 I honestly don't know how I would have survived this year w/o the skills I've learned from studying Buddhist thought and learning how traitorous ones mind can be. I certainly have times of feeling utter despair, but being able to realize what my mind is doing and bringing my attention back to enjoying the *right now* has truly been a sanity saver. 

Yes!  I completely agree. 

I particularly like "how traitorous ones mind can be." Isn't that the truth!  I say that I 'lock down' my mind, but that is just the way I learned to perceive of it based on the severe conditions under which I learned it.  I much prefer they way you said "being able to realize what my mind is doing and bringing my attention back to enjoying the *right now*"

Edited November 14, 2020 by lewelma