Purpose / Meaning / Joy - Some kind of framework?

[lewelma]

Just now, Carol in Cal. said:

I think it’s usually more preventative than anything.  Like, it’s not what makes someone better, but it helps them to prevent themselves from sliding back into depression again.

My sister feels that it does make someone better. The meds don't work wonders. And although you could try to wait it out, that is neither pleasant nor a guarantee. She is a counselor so she does have a bone in the fight, but she thinks it is meds in combination with counseling that make the difference in recovery. And at least her style of counseling is not just a 'listen to you work through your problems', instead she challenges her clients and their ways of thinking. She teaches them how to process their thoughts and feelings so that they can slowly dig their way out of depression. 

[Frances]

Has anyone tried transcranial magnetic stimulation (TMS) to treat depression? It recently became available here.

[Carol in Cal.]

3 minutes ago, lewelma said:

My sister feels that it does make someone better. The meds don't work wonders. And although you could try to wait it out, that is neither pleasant nor a guarantee. She is a counselor so she does have a bone in the fight, but she thinks it is meds in combination with counseling that make the difference in recovery. And at least her style of counseling is not just a 'listen to you work through your problems', instead she challenges her clients and their ways of thinking. She teaches them how to process their thoughts and feelings so that they can slowly dig their way out of depression. 

This is not what I said.  I said that just habits of mind are more for prevention than recovery.  The idea that those habits plus meds are the best for a recovery is what I observed.  I think that the meds are often a scaffold to creating space for the habits of mind learning and practice.

[Drama Llama]

8 minutes ago, Frances said:

Has anyone tried transcranial magnetic stimulation (TMS) to treat depression? It recently became available here.

Not me, but I have a friend with very refractory depression that says this helped him. 

[lewelma]

22 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

This is not what I said.  I said that just habits of mind are more for prevention than recovery.  The idea that those habits plus meds are the best for a recovery is what I observed.  I think that the meds are often a scaffold to creating space for the habits of mind learning and practice.

Ah, got it.  I agree. 

[Ausmumof3]

7 hours ago, regentrude said:

Definitely SAD, but that's not the issue here since what I am talking about has been lasting for several years. My youngest kid is a senior in college.

I am not sure I said what you remember - I usually jump right at the cleaning and organizing as soon as the semester is over and by day three have every last junk drawer straightened and the donations taken to Goodwill 🙂

Lol well that’s what whoever said it said - that by the next week they had it all done.  I related to the first bit but the second not so much.  I was so sure in my head it was you but must have been someone else.

Edited to say I found the thread and apparently I had mashed the poster before you and yours together in my head somehow. 
 

Re the SAD it may not be the long term issue but I suspect it’s going to be harder to tackle the original issue unless you can deal with that a bit first. 

Edited November 17, 2020 by Ausmumof3

[GoodGrief3]

45 minutes ago, lewelma said:

My sister feels that it does make someone better. The meds don't work wonders. And although you could try to wait it out, that is neither pleasant nor a guarantee. She is a counselor so she does have a bone in the fight, but she thinks it is meds in combination with counseling that make the difference in recovery. And at least her style of counseling is not just a 'listen to you work through your problems', instead she challenges her clients and their ways of thinking. She teaches them how to process their thoughts and feelings so that they can slowly dig their way out of depression. 

Your sister's methods sound similar to what my daughter had in Seattle. It worked remarkably well, in conjunction with medication. She would like to find the same sort of therapist in her current location.

[regentrude]

3 hours ago, lewelma said:

Working Life - 8 hours per day

Positive thoughts: I would work to develop positive thoughts every day in my job.  This is mindfulness.  I would notice all the small things I like and keep a gratitude journal just about my work life. Gratitude journals make a difference to how you *perceive* of your life. 

Small changes: I would make small positive changes in my own productivity and interactions with my workmates.  This might mean responding to emails within the hour, this might me improving my lecture notes to be even more clear, or improving the layout of my report I'm turning in. Basically, doing the best job I can do, rather than just making it through the day.

Big changes: I would be entrepreneurial in my own job.  I would offer to take on work that looks interesting. Being a scientist, I would start an after school outreach program for girls, or I would create free science content on line. I would make this job that I am stuck in, more. More what I want it to be.

Thanks for this perspective. I find that I am doing something radically opposite:

As a relentless perfectionist who has kept changing already very good materials simply to ward off boredom, I am stopping doing work that is only busywork intended to make myself feel better. For me, rather than spending more and more time on the diminishing return of making things possibly a tiny bit better, the radical solution may be to recognize when good is good enough. Otherwise, I am creating an illusion of accomplishment when all I have actually done was to spend more time.

I have, over that past years, added a variety of responsibilities to my primary job. I am doing all the tours for prospective students, open houses, and admissions events for my department, have started social media, manage our website and publicity, am the undergraduate advisor - at some point, piling on more responsibilities is not going to solve the problem of ennui. It is just keeping me more busy. It's not like if I add doing "X" I get to do less of "Y". I have no desire to add any more work.

The positive thoughts are hard, since what I loved about my job has been taken away by the pandemic: the personal contact with students. Making online videos watched by, and online exams taken by, 400 people who I never interact with in person is not what teaching is about for me.

For me, the radical shift is to compartmentalize and make the job tolerable by no longer allowing it to define me. For years, I have defined through my occupation. I have grown up with the ideal that one must have a job one is passionate about, and I am married to, and surrounded by, academics for whom that is absolutely the case. Over the past three years, however, my perspective has changed and I have come to view the job as what I do (and do very well) to pay the bills. I am no longer a physics professor who writes poetry in her spare time - I am a poet who teaches physics as her day job. That was a huge paradigm shift for me.

Putting up boundaries for the job has practical implications like escaping the tyranny of the immediate response and no longer answering non-urgent student emails at 9pm. 
And it means I will stop feeling guilty when I get done with something in a short time just because I am extremely efficient. Time spent at the office is not a sensible measure of productivity, success, or quality, let alone a moral virtue. That's counter-cultural in this society's worship of busyness.

 

Edited November 17, 2020 by regentrude

[Carol in Cal.]

See, if someone is, at the most basic level, depressed because they are an extrovert who is not able to be around people, coupled with an inclination toward depression, that’s when I think meds and some really determined CBT as well as some judicious contact with conversational friends would be just the ticket.

[Skippy]

On 11/13/2020 at 9:52 PM, Jenny in Florida said:

So, any thoughts? What gives your daily life shape or meaning? What do you consider your purpose? And, if you ever felt you had lost it, how did you find it again?

Sorry, that I am just seeing this now, so I haven't read responses but am answering your questions. I am so sorry that you are struggling.

Personally, this is what gives my life meaning and purpose: Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

Personally, my purpose is to love God and others. I often stray from this purpose, and my mind dwells on so many other things. I find my way back by refocusing on this purpose. It's very simple, but sometimes I make it very hard. 

[lewelma]

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

Thanks for this perspective. I find that I am doing something radically opposite:

As a relentless perfectionist who has kept changing already very good materials simply to ward off boredom, I am stopping doing work that is only busywork intended to make myself feel better. For me, rather than spending more and more time on the diminishing return of making things possibly a tiny bit better, the radical solution may be to recognize when good is good enough. Otherwise, I am creating an illusion of accomplishment when all I have actually done was to spend more time.

I have, over that past years, added a variety of responsibilities to my primary job. I am doing all the tours for prospective students, open houses, and admissions events for my department, have started social media, manage our website and publicity, am the undergraduate advisor - at some point, piling on more responsibilities is not going to solve the problem of ennui. It is just keeping me more busy. It's not like if I add doing "X" I get to do less of "Y". I have no desire to add any more work.

The positive thoughts are hard, since what I loved about my job has been taken away by the pandemic: the personal contact with students. Making online videos watched by, and online exams taken by, 400 people who I never interact with in person is not what teaching is about for me.

For me, the radical shift is to compartmentalize and make the job tolerable by no longer allowing it to define me. For years, I have defined through my occupation. I have grown up with the ideal that one must have a job one is passionate about, and I am married to, and surrounded by, academics for whom that is absolutely the case. Over the past three years, however, my perspective has changed and I have come to view the job as what I do (and do very well) to pay the bills. I am no longer a physics professor who writes poetry in her spare time - I am a poet who teaches physics as her day job. That was a huge paradigm shift for me.

Putting up boundaries for the job has practical implications like escaping the tyranny of the immediate response and stopping to answer non-urgent student emails at 9pm. 
And it means I will stop feeling guilty when I get done with something in a short time just because I am extremely efficient. Time spent at the office is not a sensible measure of productivity, success, or quality, let alone a moral virtue. That's counter-cultural in this society's worship of busyness.

 

I can totally get why you are putting up boundaries. Sounds like the exact right thing to do.  I also think that the covid thing is something that we are all facing. You have lost the best part of your job; my husband is in danger of losing his job every day. He works for immigration, which is funded by visitor visas, and obviously there are no visitors to NZ because the borders are closed. At least 2 times a week since March he has been told that they are cutting his funding and he will be laid off. This is obviously stressful for the whole family, not just him. But it helps me to think it is just a covid thing we have to get through. It will pass. It is temporary. It does not have to be the focus of our life right now.

Obvious when covid is over, it sounds like you would spend as much time with students as possible as that is what gives you pleasure. It sounds like your leisure time is where your flexibility lies. 

 

 

[regentrude]

18 minutes ago, lewelma said:

I can totally get why you are putting up boundaries. Sounds like the exact right thing to do.  I also think that the covid thing is something that we are all facing. You have lost the best part of your job; my husband is in danger of losing his job every day. He works for immigration, which is funded by visitor visas, and obviously there are no visitors to NZ because the borders are closed. At least 2 times a week since March he has been told that they are cutting his funding and he will be laid off. This is obviously stressful for the whole family, not just him. But it helps me to think it is just a covid thing we have to get through. It will pass. It is temporary. It does not have to be the focus of our life right now.

Obvious when covid is over, it sounds like you would spend as much time with students as possible as that is what gives you pleasure. It sounds like your leisure time is where your flexibility lies.

I am sorry about your DH; that must be very stressful. I marvel how you can make Covid not the focus - I find that every single decision and work task and interaction is about, or tainted by, the damned virus. It pervades everything and is inescapable for longer than a few hours of hiking in the woods. Yes, it is temporary, but who knows how long. 2021 will be not much better, at least here in the US.

My leisure time does give me flexibility, but I admit that I still struggle with the loss of all I had planned and the projects I had started, because this year was supposed to be moving me towards a new trajectory - and those opportunities are not postponed, they are gone. I am not dwelling on that all day every day, but it's likely one of the reasons I have been unable to write since March... and that opens the whole "what's a writer who isn't writing?" can of worms.
My other creative outlet was making music together with people. Sigh.

And yes, I have spent the summer gardening with a friend (whom I now will only get to see very rarely if the weather permits an outside visit) and do a lot of hiking. It's not like I'm not trying. But it's not easy to replace the activities that fed my soul and inspired me to create and that were related to what comes closest for me to "vocation".

Edited November 18, 2020 by regentrude

[lewelma]

10 minutes ago, regentrude said:

I am sorry about your DH; that must be very stressful. I marvel how you can make Covid not the focus - I find that every single decision and work task and interaction is about, or tainted by, the damned virus. It pervades everything and is inescapable for longer than a few hours of hiking in the woods. Yes, it is temporary, but who knows how long. 2021 will be not much better, at least here in the US.

Well, our focus is on spending our last year with our youngest, building beautiful memories, and preparing him for his future. My job is focused around the desperate attempt to get my students to pass their final exams when they lost about a third of the teaching time this year. We are at the end of the year that started with the covid lockdown in March-May, and it is not pretty.  But the kids and I are laughing it off.  'It is just a covid thing.'  Yes, it is ugly. Yes, the teachers munted it. Yes, it is just so much work to try to clean it up here at the end. But we are in it together. I spend 20 hours a week calming teen fears and reassuring the parents that what their teens are experiencing is normal.  So yes, I am surrounded right now by the effects of the virus. My dh is definitely losing his job at the end of February, and we are expecting that he won't get a new one until 2022 because of the economic conditions.  So we will be sending him on the equivalent of the Appalachian Trail here in NZ.  This means I cannot stop my tutoring to go to uni next year, but will need to do both concurrently. Well, so be it.  It means that dh may have trouble getting a job in 2022 because of a 'gap' in his employment record, well, we will find a way. Worrying won't help.  Enjoying my family, good books, good cooking, and now summer is what I am planning. I guess I just see things in a more positive light.

[lewelma]

31 minutes ago, regentrude said:

this year was supposed to be moving me towards a new trajectory - and those opportunities are not postponed, they are gone.

😞 

[Scarlett]

2 hours ago, Skippy said:

Sorry, that I am just seeing this now, so I haven't read responses but am answering your questions. I am so sorry that you are struggling.

Personally, this is what gives my life meaning and purpose: Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

Personally, my purpose is to love God and others. I often stray from this purpose, and my mind dwells on so many other things. I find my way back by refocusing on this purpose. It's very simple, but sometimes I make it very hard. 

Spiritually....if a person is religious.....this is helpful and works up until the day it doesn’t.  I think it is helpful to see that, to believe that you can completely lose your way and feel like you are scratching and clawing to find your way back to the place where you felt centered and happy.  
 

I have a good friend whose Elderly grandparents were brutally murdered and my friend found the bodies.  It has forever altered who this friend of mine is.  She describes it as her brain ‘flipping’.  What she got her good feelings from no longer worked.  Thankfully, she substituted radical exercise which I believe is the best case scenario in my friends situation and probably other situations like people on this board struggling.  
 

I have struggled with a less brutal but serious situation and saying my brain ‘ flipped’ describes it well.  
 

I think this will make sense to people or it won’t.  It is hard to explain. 

[Carol in Cal.]

17 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Spiritually....if a person is religious.....this is helpful and works up until the day it doesn’t.  ...
 

I have struggled with a less brutal but serious situation and saying my brain ‘ flipped’ describes it well.  
 

I think this will make sense to people or it won’t.  It is hard to explain. 

It totally makes sense to me, and I think it is why the shrooms work sometimes--they sort of engender a positive brain flip.  I've always avoided drinking alcohol when I feel bad, because I don't want it to become associated with 'the way to feel better' in my brain, but it's undeniable that there are times when a little alteredness is truly helpful, not just anesthetizing you from life but sort of giving your brain respite from the misery and enabling healing to start.

By the same token, PTSD is really a thing, REALLY, and it flips your brain in the other direction.  

[lewelma]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

I have struggled with a less brutal but serious situation and saying my brain ‘ flipped’ describes it well.  
 

I think this will make sense to people or it won’t. 

I had no trigger, but when I went into my most severe OCD episode, my brain definitely flipped.  It did not grow gradually that I remember. It was horrific and debilitating. Not knowing what it was, I googled schizophrenia. I thought I was going crazy. I have also experienced postpartum depression at 30, and 5 years of clinical OCD in my early 20s.  The 3 month episode, however, was far far far worse. 

Edited November 18, 2020 by lewelma

[Scarlett]

9 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

It totally makes sense to me, and I think it is why the shrooms work sometimes--they sort of engender a positive brain flip.  I've always avoided drinking alcohol when I feel bad, because I don't want it to become associated with 'the way to feel better' in my brain, but it's undeniable that there are times when a little alteredness is truly helpful, not just anesthetizing you from life but sort of giving your brain respite from the misery and enabling healing to start.

By the same token, PTSD is really a thing, REALLY, and it flips your brain in the other direction.  

I am remembering that when I went through my horrific divorce I did turn to alcohol too much. And thinking back on it I was looking to  flip something.  
Interesting.  

[Jenny in Florida]

7 hours ago, BaseballandHockey said:

Society places so much value on "pushing through", but it doesn't recognize that doing so can rob someone from other things.  My kid with physical disabilities could walk, but sometimes doing so meant he slept through family dinner, or didn't have enough energy to play legos with his brother.  So, sometimes, he walked and sometimes he chose to be carried or use his wheelchair so he could do those other important things.  People with mental illness face similar choices.  In both cases they'll face judgment. 

I find the story of the spoons helpful in attempting to explain this to people.

My husband lives with chronic pain, which is getting worse as he gets older. For years he refused to admit or even acknowledge to himself when doing things would be too much for him. He insisted on riding the roller coaster when we were on vacation and doing the manual labor when we needed to move and too many similar things to list. Then he would collapse into his recliner and be a wreck for days or weeks on end, in excruciating pain and unable to speak to interact with his wife or children. And who knows what kind of additional damage he did to himself over the years.

I shared the spoons concept with him, which helps him to think about how to allocate his energies.

In the last year, I've hit a lot of bumps both physically and emotionally, and my own supply of spoons has dwindled. And what I have learned is that using up any of my small store of emotional energy on pretending things don't suck just means I have less energy to get through the day without weeping.

[Jenny in Florida]

On 11/16/2020 at 9:02 PM, lewelma said:

I disagree with this.  Achievement is how *you* define it.  Recognition is if you want others' to value it.

True enough. And for some people -- like, say, Regentrude and me -- the kind of artificial goals being suggested don't meet our definition of achievement.

[Jenny in Florida]

7 hours ago, lewelma said:

I had a hot flash last night which kept me up for about an hour, which left me little to do but think!  So I started thinking about what I would specifically do in your circumstance, and this is what I came up with.

Working Life - 8 hours per day

Negative thoughts: If I was stuck in a job for many good reasons, I would get rid of all negative thoughts about it. Not thoughts like I need to talk to my boss about bad things happening. I mean get rid of the thoughts that say that this job is not meaningful, or below me, or not fun.  I would simply cancel those thoughts like I have taught my son to do. Negative thoughts about a job I cannot change will not help me or my life. 

Positive thoughts: I would work to develop positive thoughts every day in my job.  This is mindfulness.  I would notice all the small things I like and keep a gratitude journal just about my work life. Gratitude journals make a difference to how you *perceive* of your life. 

Small changes: I would make small positive changes in my own productivity and interactions with my workmates.  This might mean responding to emails within the hour, this might me improving my lecture notes to be even more clear, or improving the layout of my report I'm turning in. Basically, doing the best job I can do, rather than just making it through the day.

Big changes: I would be entrepreneurial in my own job.  I would offer to take on work that looks interesting. Being a scientist, I would start an after school outreach program for girls, or I would create free science content on line. I would make this job that I am stuck in, more. More what I want it to be. 

Leisure Life - 4 hours per day + 2 days per week

Given that my job is not what I really want to be doing, I would use my leisure time to matter to others and make a difference. For me, my leisure time is about being self absorbed in personal improvement - reading, studying, fitness, etc.  But if I want to 'matter', I would spend 3 months at a time rotating through different projects.  Either I would find something I love, or in 30 years, I could reflect back on the 100 cool things I did to help my community.

Fleeting vs permanent impact: I'm talking helping in a soup kitchen vs building houses for habitat for humanity. In covid world it would be more like tutoring online or writing the community newsletter.

Joining an ongoing project vs creating my own volunteer group:  Joining a project is easy (soup kitchen) but I may want to be less replaceable. Instead, I could create my own volunteer group. Create my own tutoring center, or create a conservation group that plants natives in my local park.  Something Bigger than just joining an ongoing project. 

Volunteer vs Paid work: I think I would rather volunteer, but I could certainly get paid for another job in my leisure time. I could make things to sell, or I could help old people set up their computers, or I could be a professional organizer.  I have many many hours of leisure time in the week to do other things!

-----------------

So if I was stuck in my job, I would do these 2 things 1) make that job better and 2) make my leisure time matter. I may not ever find the golden goose that gives me great meaning, but I would have had a beautiful life with so many memories and have impacted so many lives.  

That is what I lay in bed thinking about. And I will say that it has inspired me to get started right away.  🙂  

Good for you.

[Jenny in Florida]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

I have struggled with a less brutal but serious situation and saying my brain ‘ flipped’ describes it well.  
 

I think this will make sense to people or it won’t.  It is hard to explain. 

Stipulating that having one's family members murdered is horrendous, and finding the bodies adds a whole additional layer of awfulness I can't begin to imagine. That said, I do think the description of a brain "flipping" in response to a particularly upsetting situation is apt.

In my case, I know that I learned certain truths as a result of my cancer diagnosis and treatment that I can't ever un-know. I try not to make these pronouncements, but I can't imagine I will ever again be the person I was before.

[Scarlett]

25 minutes ago, Jenny in Florida said:

Stipulating that having one's family members murdered is horrendous, and finding the bodies adds a whole additional layer of awfulness I can't begin to imagine. That said, I do think the description of a brain "flipping" in response to a particularly upsetting situation is apt.

In my case, I know that I learned certain truths as a result of my cancer diagnosis and treatment that I can't ever un-know. I try not to make these pronouncements, but I can't imagine I will ever again be the person I was before.

And I think there we have it. This is not your normal,post children mid life crisis.   

[Jenny in Florida]

4 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

And I think there we have it. This is not your normal,post children mid life crisis.   

To be clear, I was flailing well before the cancer knocked on my door. And I actually coped pretty well with the cancer, itself. It was at some point during the aftermath that I went downhill. (And, yes, I can be more specific than that, but not in public.)

[Scarlett]

24 minutes ago, Jenny in Florida said:

To be clear, I was flailing well before the cancer knocked on my door. And I actually coped pretty well with the cancer, itself. It was at some point during the aftermath that I went downhill. (And, yes, I can be more specific than that, but not in public.)

Well I have followed you pretty closely...I would be curious to know what the tipping point was.  I know what it was for me.

[Jenny in Florida]

Some not-yet-organized thoughts sparked by the discussion so far:

A lot of posters seem to have gotten stuck on diagnosing and curing my depression. I'm not denying it's a factor. In addition to counseling, I spent several months on medication, which I had to stop taking when it became clear it was causing some extremely unpleasant physical symptoms. The psychiatrist tried me on three different meds, all of which caused the same problem. It has taken a good six weeks of being off meds for it to begin to recede. 

That said, the sense of flailing started well before the depression hit -- or at least before it became debilitating. My gut tells me that the loss of purpose and direction is a major factor in worsening the depression. I've handled a lot of emotional upsets and stressors in my life before without falling down into that deep a hole. This time has been different.

But where I keep circling around to in trying responses here is that I don't really need advice about how to keep going, how to make myself get out of bed in the morning, etc. I'm doing that. I get up every day and take the dog for a walk. I follow the exercise plan I have set up for myself. I sign up for walking challenges and 5Ks (and complete them). I shower and get dressed and sit down at my desk and do my job well. I remind myself regularly that, while it isn't the most exciting job in the world, it is worthwhile. I chat with my co-workers via Slack and Zoom. I cook a few meals a week and do the laundry and the dishes and pay the bills.

What I am trying to pinpoint is why I should be doing those things.

They are hard. I derive very little satisfaction from any of them (except that I do like the exercising and the walking challenges). With the possible exception of the small public service I provide in my job, none of those things I make myself do every day provide any benefit to the world or even to my local community. Any way you look at it, I am absolutely taking up more space and resources than I am repaying into the system. 

So why am I doing it? What is the purpose? 

Edited November 18, 2020 by Jenny in Florida

[Jenny in Florida]

(Ooops)

Edited November 18, 2020 by Jenny in Florida

[Rosie_0801]

22 minutes ago, Jenny in Florida said:

What I am trying to pinpoint is why I should be doing those things. 

Any way you look at it, I am absolutely taking up more space and resources than I am repaying into the system. 

So why am I doing it? What is the purpose? 

We could pretty it up with philosophy, but in the end, the reason is because you're not dead yet. You are doing it because you have the right to live until you're not alive any more.

Self care *is* hard. But it is necessary to maintain ourselves.

[Carol in Cal.]

2 hours ago, Jenny in Florida said:

(Ooops)

You’re totally worth whatever resources you are using.  You are infinitely valuable.  You don’t have to justify your existence.  You’re a human being and human beings are inherently valuable.  

On an unrelated note, your reflections on issues and ethics and right actions are helpful to me and undoubtedly much more so to the people who are in your vicinity.  That doesn’t have to be true for you to be tremendously valuable, but it is true nevertheless, and probably more than you will ever fully realize.

[lewelma]

6 hours ago, Jenny in Florida said:

Good for you.

It is so hard to do things by writing rather than in person.  I thought seeing my thought process might help you see some options.  Perhaps not.  Let me try another way. 

I got postpartum depression after the birth of my first child, and it was deep and long lasting. When my boy was 5 months old, I told my dh that I wanted to separate. Nothing was good enough, nothing gave me joy, including the love of my life who I had been with for 13 years since the age of 17. My sweet dh was willing to do anything I asked -- he was desperate to save our marriage. So I asked to move, move to a hippy commune in the outback of NZ.  He quit his job, we sold the house and everything we owned, and moved into a one room hut with no running water, no electricity, and a composting toilet in the winter with a baby in the middle of nowhere. I will let you stop and think about that for a moment. But unfortunately even embracing this long-standing dream of mine was not enough, and my depression was now augmented by anxiety. We left 4 months later. We moved in with a friend for a few weeks to regain our bearings, and then traveled the USA to attend my sister's wedding. While we were in America, September 11th happened, and by the time we returned to NZ, there was no housing and no jobs.  All the kiwis who were overseas moved back and all the kiwis who were planning to leave, did not.  There was nowhere to live and there were no jobs to be had. We had returned to NZ, homeless and jobless, with no family support and with a 1 year old baby. We found a 300 square foot basement apartment, and my dh did odd computer jobs while working from home.  He made $8000 that year and we ate into our savings. He did not find a proper job for a full 9 months. My depression did not resolve easily, and I took more than a year to get back my moorings and my life. 

What I came to understand during this very difficult time was that following your life's dream is not enough to fix a broken mind.  My mind was broken. It was my mind that had to change, not my circumstances.  So I spent that year digging my way out of this deep depression. It was a rocky road with many false starts, but I did it.  It is because of this experience and others I have had that I keep saying what you don't want to hear.  I think it is unlikely that you will find something meaningful to fix your struggles. Instead, I think that you need to change the way you think about your life experiences and your future. I do not know if your depression is as deep as mine was, so perhaps you have more options than I did. I certainly hope so. And please know that I do not want to cause you more harm, so if you want me to leave this thread, I will. My intentions are good, but it may be that my experiences are of no use to you.

Edited November 18, 2020 by lewelma

[ktgrok]

8 hours ago, Jenny in Florida said:

 

What I am trying to pinpoint is why I should be doing those things.

They are hard. I derive very little satisfaction from any of them (except that I do like the exercising and the walking challenges). With the possible exception of the small public service I provide in my job, none of those things I make myself do every day provide any benefit to the world or even to my local community. Any way you look at it, I am absolutely taking up more space and resources than I am repaying into the system. 

So why am I doing it? What is the purpose? 

well...you work to make money to help support your household. Thats why. Because food and shelter are important. Does it have to be more "why" than that, for your job? By working you are providing a benefit to your household. 

Also, your job must provide benefit to the company/organization you work for, or they wouldn't pay you for it, right? So there again you are providing a service/benefit to someone - the people that own/run the company if no one else. 

Finally - this is not a system of debt and repayment. It just isn't. When your children were babies, did they not have a "reason" to live because they took more from the "system" than they gave? Of course not! You didn't begrudge them their lives because they were not providing a service to the community. They didn't "owe" the system a darned thing by being born and neither do you. 

I'm going to again recommend Richard Rohr for some reading or listening, or anything about imago dei and the innate dignity of the human being. 

 

[regentrude]

8 hours ago, Jenny in Florida said:

That said, the sense of flailing started well before the depression hit -- or at least before it became debilitating. My gut tells me that the loss of purpose and direction is a major factor in worsening the depression. ...

I don't really need advice about how to keep going, how to make myself get out of bed in the morning, etc. I'm doing that. I get up every day and take the dog for a walk. I follow the exercise plan I have set up for myself. I sign up for walking challenges and 5Ks (and complete them). I shower and get dressed and sit down at my desk and do my job well. I remind myself regularly that, while it isn't the most exciting job in the world, it is worthwhile. I chat with my co-workers via Slack and Zoom. I cook a few meals a week and do the laundry and the dishes and pay the bills.

What I am trying to pinpoint is why I should be doing those things.

Jenny, I completely understand! This is why I am careful to distinguish between a Dark Night of the Soul, i.e. spiritual crisis (which can certainly lead to depression) and clinical depression. They do feel different.

Like you, I have absolutely no difficulty with task initiation. I get out of bed, I do my job, pile on extra responsibilities, cook, bake, clean, hike, take pictures, run several social media pages, do reading events, choir, book club, women's circle, host dinner parties (well, at least pre-pandemic). There is just this all pervading sense of ennui.

Quote

I am absolutely taking up more space and resources than I am repaying into the system. 

Yeah, but that's not how it works. There is no "system" you have to pay into. that's not to say you can't have a sense of futility, but you do not have to justify your existence by doing. You are a human and you are loved, and that has to suffice - even though it doesn't feel like it some days.

Edited November 18, 2020 by regentrude

[regentrude]

14 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

well...you work to make money to help support your household. Thats why. Because food and shelter are important. Does it have to be more "why" than that, for your job?

But is that a sufficient reason for living? You work so you can eat so you can work some more. That's bleak.

Edited November 18, 2020 by regentrude

[ktgrok]

40 minutes ago, regentrude said:

But is that a sufficient reason for living? You work so you can eat so you can work some more. That's bleak.

No, but it is a reason for doing that job. OUr job doesn't need to define our reason for living. I think you said that as well. 

[ktgrok]

Saw this quote again today and thought of this thread. 

"Life isn't about finding yourself, it is about creating yourself."

And your purpose and who you are changes all the time, and I think that's good?

[regentrude]

59 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

"Life isn't about finding yourself, it is about creating yourself."

Isn't that a question of semantics?
What people talk about when they say "finding" oneself (or one's purpose) isn't all that different from what people call "creating" oneself (or one's purpose). It's essentially the same phenomenon.  

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

Isn't that a question of semantics?
What people talk about when they say "finding" oneself (or one's purpose) isn't all that different from what people call "creating" oneself (or one's purpose). It's essentially the same phenomenon.  

Is it?

To me, creating oneself means just deciding what you want to do, how you want to act, etc and then trying to do that. Finding yourself means asking a lot of questions and trying to figure out what you are best at, what you are meant to do vs want to do, etc. 

[regentrude]

8 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

To me, creating oneself means just deciding what you want to do, how you want to act, etc and then trying to do that. Finding yourself means asking a lot of questions and trying to figure out what you are best at, what you are meant to do vs want to do, etc. 

To me, they are essentially the same. Finding me/my purpose may end up creating myself/my purpose, but none of these gets done without introspection and lots of questions.
Btw, for me, neither has to do with "what I am best at". I find that is a common trap. Just because one is good at a thing doesn't mean that is what will fulfill the person (and I see this both as a parent and in my capacity as an academic advisor),  and it may be impossible to use as a criterion for people who are good at many things.
I don't think one can separate "meant" from "want" (as you know, I do not believe that some higher being ordains what I am meant to do).

Interesting discussion!

ETA: "Finding myself", to me, means "making my spirit whole". 

Edited November 18, 2020 by regentrude

[lewelma]

4 hours ago, regentrude said:

Isn't that a question of semantics?
 

I think finding is passive and creating is active.  

[lewelma]

This discussion is making me think that I don't have a purpose, and I am curious why I don't and why it doesn't bother me. 

I do think that religion and philosophy fill this hole in people's lives. I wonder how easy it is to find purpose without using one of the long-standing bodies of thought that exist throughout the world. 

Edited November 18, 2020 by lewelma

[regentrude]

4 minutes ago, lewelma said:

I think finding is passive and creating is active.  

True, but when people talk about "finding " themselves,  they usually do a whole lot of active searching 🙂

[regentrude]

8 minutes ago, lewelma said:

This discussion is making me think that I don't have a purpose, and I am curious why I don't and why it doesn't bother me. 

I do think that religion and philosophy fill this hole in people's lives. I wonder how easy it is to find purpose without using one of the long-standing bodies of thought that exist throughout the world. 

Completely agree.

Humans have developed religion to find an answer for the question about life's meaning. I think in some sense that's a cop-out. If one has no answer,  one  can always say "God".

ETA: I don't know if one can think about this question "outside" of philosophy. I don't believe there's any new thought that hasn't occurred to thinkers throughout the ages. We may not be able to name the school of thought or -ism, but whatever we think, others must have thought before. 

Edited November 18, 2020 by regentrude

[lewelma]

30 minutes ago, regentrude said:

True, but when people talk about "finding " themselves,  they usually do a whole lot of active searching 🙂

The word is definitely used in multiple ways.  My nephew when on his 'voyage of discovery' after his freshman year of university. He felt completely unmoored and hoped that taking 6 weeks to drive across the USA sleeping in the back of his car and disconnecting would help him 'find' himself.  That seems very passive to me compared to what you are doing. 

[regentrude]

40 minutes ago, lewelma said:

The word is definitely used in multiple ways.  My nephew when on his 'voyage of discovery' after his freshman year of university. He felt completely unmoored and hoped that taking 6 weeks to drive across the USA sleeping in the back of his car and disconnecting would help him 'find' himself.  That seems very passive to me compared to what you are doing. 

I don't understand why you would say that. The work of searching for oneself is internal work that has nothing to do with outward activity. The sages of old went to meditate in the desert. That's not much different from unplugging and driving for weeks, possibly spending time in nature. I find driving very conducive to introspection and letting the thoughts flow.
If anything, he may have had unrealistic expectations of the time it would take; six weeks may not suffice. But overall, I think this is an excellent way to gain perspective and evaluate one's choices.

What more "activity" should one perform in the process of critically inspecting one's life?

Edited November 18, 2020 by regentrude

[lewelma]

52 minutes ago, regentrude said:

I don't understand why you would say that. The work of searching for oneself is internal work that has nothing to do with outward activity. The sages of old went to meditate in the desert. That's not much different from unplugging and driving for weeks, possibly spending time in nature. I find driving very conducive to introspection and letting the thoughts flow.
If anything, he may have had unrealistic expectations of the time it would take; six weeks may not suffice. But overall, I think this is an excellent way to gain perspective and evaluate one's choices.

What more "activity" should one perform in the process of critically inspecting one's life?

That is an excellent point. I'm thinking internal = passive, and something I can *see* is active.  Very bigoted of me.  Glad you pointed it out.

I wonder what the author of the quote meant?

[lewelma]

Thinking more about this... I also think that because he did not achieve what he set out to do (based on his assessment of it, not mine), I viewed it as passive, that he was waiting for the answers to fall in his lap.  Very wrong of me to assume effort = outcome.  

Edited November 18, 2020 by lewelma

[Jenny in Florida]

9 hours ago, regentrude said:

But is that a sufficient reason for living? You work so you can eat so you can work some more. That's bleak.

Exactly. Bleak is precisely the description.

 

[Jenny in Florida]

10 hours ago, ktgrok said:

well...you work to make money to help support your household. Thats why. Because food and shelter are important. Does it have to be more "why" than that, for your job? By working you are providing a benefit to your household. 

Also, your job must provide benefit to the company/organization you work for, or they wouldn't pay you for it, right? So there again you are providing a service/benefit to someone - the people that own/run the company if no one else. 

Finally - this is not a system of debt and repayment. It just isn't. When your children were babies, did they not have a "reason" to live because they took more from the "system" than they gave? Of course not! You didn't begrudge them their lives because they were not providing a service to the community. They didn't "owe" the system a darned thing by being born and neither do you. 

I'm going to again recommend Richard Rohr for some reading or listening, or anything about imago dei and the innate dignity of the human being. 

 

My salary is window dressing compared to what my husband makes. For the first couple of years after I went back to work, it was clear where that money went and that it was making a difference to our financial situation. Now that we are more or less dug out of the worst of the student loan and credit card debt and (not to sound heartless, but facts are facts) now that my husband's family has left him a few different pots of money, my salary no longer has as much of an impact.

I work for a corporation whose goal is to make money. I help them do that, and I'm reasonably good at it. But that hardly feels like a way to reach the meaning of life. (They aren't a bad or especially greedy corporation, and the senior leadership really does seem concerned with finding ways to be good a good corporate citizen, but it's still basically and primarily about the money.)

I do believe whole-heartedly in the inherent worth and dignity of every human being. I'm still Unitarian Universalist enough to cling to that principle. This is not about justifying my existence, but about finding meaning in it. Something that makes it meaningful to me.

 

Edited November 18, 2020 by Jenny in Florida

[R828]

6 hours ago, regentrude said:

Completely agree.

Humans have developed religion to find an answer for the question about life's meaning. I think in some sense that's a cop-out. If one has no answer,  one  can always say "God".

ETA: I don't know if one can think about this question "outside" of philosophy. I don't believe there's any new thought that hasn't occurred to thinkers throughout the ages. We may not be able to name the school of thought or -ism, but whatever we think, others must have thought before. 

Sorry I’m jumping in mid conversation, but I  have pondered purpose and meaning for myself through some dark times as well as good ones, so I’ve read this thread with great interest. I personally feel stuck in some aspects of my life, but like many here I find great fulfillment in mothering and homeschooling my children. It’s sobering to contemplate being an empty nester. 

That said, Regentrude I’m curious why you think finding your ultimate purpose in God is a cop out. Not everyone may want to or be able to believe in God but it seems to me that God is as valid an answer to this question as anything else. 

I absolutely agree with your ‘nothing new under the sun’ sentiment. There really isn’t but that doesn’t seem to make things easier for us! 
 

ETA I ask this in an ‘I really want to hear your thoughts and discuss this’ way, I’m not trying to be contrary. 

Edited November 19, 2020 by R828

[lewelma]

I've decided to back away from this thread.  I have not read the responses because I fear that I have said the wrong thing.  My ideas are nuanced but my responses are short, so I'm sure I am never clear enough. I hope that everyone finds what they are looking for, and I am rooting for positive changes for us all. 

Ruth in NZ