Purpose / Meaning / Joy - Some kind of framework?

[Scarlett]

15 hours ago, lewelma said:

I've decided to back away from this thread.  I have not read the responses because I fear that I have said the wrong thing.  My ideas are nuanced but my responses are short, so I'm sure I am never clear enough. I hope that everyone finds what they are looking for, and I am rooting for positive changes for us all. 

Ruth in NZ

I have enjoyed your posts in this thread.  Different people provide a different perspective.  So I hope you don't feel like you need to step away.  

[MercyA]

34 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I have enjoyed your posts in this thread.  Different people provide a different perspective.  So I hope you don't feel like you need to step away.  

Same. I think it's been a good discussion with many different perspectives. 

Jenny, we feel for you and are wishing and hoping the best for you.

[GoodGrief3]

17 hours ago, lewelma said:

I've decided to back away from this thread.  I have not read the responses because I fear that I have said the wrong thing.  My ideas are nuanced but my responses are short, so I'm sure I am never clear enough. I hope that everyone finds what they are looking for, and I am rooting for positive changes for us all. 

Ruth in NZ

I've really appreciated your insights, so much so that I shared them with my daughters who struggle (without identifying information or even saying they were from a forum.) You have a real depth of thinking that is useful and practical.

[popmom]

Jenny, I really appreciate your willingness to share your struggle here. It gives me courage to reach out in my own struggle--which is not something that is easy for me. And thanks to all who have commented. 

The first question of the catechism (at least the one I subscribe to...Westminster Confession) was mentioned here a couple of times. The chief end of man: to glorify God and enjoy him forever. I have struggled with this myself as a Christian. The answer to the first question of the catechism begs 1000 more. 

"But where I keep circling around to in trying responses here is that I don't really need advice about how to keep going, how to make myself get out of bed in the morning, etc. I'm doing that. I get up every day and take the dog for a walk. I follow the exercise plan I have set up for myself. I sign up for walking challenges and 5Ks (and complete them). I shower and get dressed and sit down at my desk and do my job well. I remind myself regularly that, while it isn't the most exciting job in the world, it is worthwhile. I chat with my co-workers via Slack and Zoom. I cook a few meals a week and do the laundry and the dishes and pay the bills.

What I am trying to pinpoint is why I should be doing those things." 

 

 

Because God is worth it. Because Jesus is worth it. I respect Regentrude's comment about God as an answer being a cop out. Many times it is, and that's not where I'm coming from here. God is not the "easy button". Quite the opposite actually. 

I believe that all of God's image bearers experience good, deep, God given desires.

Purpose, to be part of something larger, transcendence

Relationship: to love and be loved, to pursue and be pursued, community, family

Impact, significance.

Honor, respect.

To be known and valued: understood, heard, seen.

To both protect and be protected, security, safety.

To come through; duty, to hear "well done".

Beauty and creativity.

Justice and freedom.

Peace, wholeness, completion, home, order.

(No I didn't come up with this list on my own. It is from a study I did a couple of years ago that was life changing for me--Wellspring Group-- Battle for the Heart)

Some people experience some of these desires more strongly than other desires. Beauty is a deep, deep desire for me. And no I'm not talking about makeup and hairdos. 😉 My belief as a Christian is that these good desires arise out of God's image in me, they draw me to God, and they can only ultimately be fulfilled through union with God. 

You have mentioned the word "framework" and certainly "purpose". To give a more specific answer to the question of "why do I do these things?... God has given me a role to play that is mine and mine alone. That role is to represent God by revealing His heart to those in my sphere. When I say God's heart, I mean His attributes and character--all that he has done for me and in me. And I am by no means trying to offer a simple answer to a complex issue. Do I reflect the heart of God perfectly? Even well or mediocrely? No way. But there is grace for that. I've already written a book by forum post standards. Sorry about that.  

I started by saying Jesus is worth it. He himself is our reward. "Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law but that which comes through faith in Christ..." from Philippians 3.

I am not offering a feel good platitude. This is just me who sometimes struggles mightily with my faith--clawing and clinging by my fingernails sometimes it feels like. So  when I struggle I often reread this passage from Morning and Evening.

 

 

Remember, therefore, it is not thy hold of Christ that saves thee—it is Christ; it is not thy joy in Christ that saves thee—it is Christ; it is not even faith in Christ, though that be the instrument—it is Christ’s blood and merits; therefore, look not so much to thy hand with which thou art grasping Christ, as to Christ; look not to thy hope, but to Jesus, the source of thy hope; look not to thy faith, but to Jesus, the author and finisher of thy faith. We shall never find happiness by looking at our prayers, our doings, or our feelings; it is what Jesus is, not what we are, that gives rest to the soul. If we would at once overcome Satan and have peace with God, it must be by “looking unto Jesus.” Keep thine eye simply on him; let his death, his sufferings, his merits, his glories, his intercession, be fresh upon thy mind; when thou wakest in the morning look to him; when thou liest down at night look to him. Oh! let not thy hopes or fears come between thee and Jesus; follow hard after him, and he will never fail thee.

 

And I rest. 

Edited November 20, 2020 by popmom

[Ausmumof3]

21 hours ago, lewelma said:

I've decided to back away from this thread.  I have not read the responses because I fear that I have said the wrong thing.  My ideas are nuanced but my responses are short, so I'm sure I am never clear enough. I hope that everyone finds what they are looking for, and I am rooting for positive changes for us all. 

Ruth in NZ

I personally found your response interesting/helpful.  I also find speaking for myself only that sometimes stuff like this takes a while to sink in/work through.

[Laura Corin]

On 11/18/2020 at 1:16 PM, regentrude said:

But is that a sufficient reason for living? You work so you can eat so you can work some more. That's bleak.

I've been thinking more about this. Day to day, I try to just enjoy what I have. This morning I was happy that our new house has a big utility room sink that made rinsing my wetsuit èasier.

However, my over-arching purpose is still to be useful to my children, and this helps to take me forwards.  Setting up our lives to be as independent as possible over the coming decades is a firm purpose.  This keeps me working full time when we could probably manage with less right now.  It feeds into my nutrition and exercise.  We chose a place to live to further those goals. Even future volunteering plans are partly to keep me mentally and socially as fit as possible for old age.  I don't want to micromanage my adult children's lives. But I  can manage my own life partly for them. 

This strong purpose comes from watching my mother's old age. I'm sure I will make different mistakes,  but I'm trying not to repeat the same ones.

[Jenny in Florida]

6 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

I've been thinking more about this. Day to day, I try to just enjoy what I have. This morning I was happy that our new house has a big utility room sink that made rinsing my wetsuit èasier.

However, my over-arching purpose is still to be useful to my children, and this helps to take me forwards.  Setting up our lives to be as independent as possible over the coming decades is a firm purpose.  This keeps me working full time when we could probably manage with less right now.  It feeds into my nutrition and exercise.  We chose a place to live to further those goals. Even future volunteering plans are partly to keep me mentally and socially as fit as possible for old age.  I don't want to micromanage my adult children's lives. But I  can manage my own life partly for them. 

This strong purpose comes from watching my mother's old age. I'm sure I will make different mistakes,  but I'm trying not to repeat the same ones.

Thank you for this. 

Yes, one of the things I think is frustrating me is that so many people seem to conflate the concepts of "purpose" and "joy." I appreciate the way you have differentiated.

I don't have a lot of access to joy at the moment. However, I can definitely point to things I observe or experience during each day that are pleasing to me and that, if I were feeling more myself, would probably make me feel something like joy or happiness. For me, however, that doesn't equate with purpose or meaning. It's just something nice that I experience, which doesn't reach or benefit anyone else.

[The following got really long. Feel free to bail now.]

What I think I'm trying to figure out, put into a framework that will allow me to keep building on the concepts, is how to connect the things I do every day to something larger and/or more meaningful. I'm trying to reach beyond doing things simply to sustain and/or entertain myself.

So, if I devote eight hours of each weekday to paid work, I receive a paycheck every other week. I use that paycheck to help pay my living expenses -- house myself and feed myself and pay my medical bills and so on -- and to entertain myself -- subscriptions to streaming services, for example. But if I weren't here and weren't earning that paycheck, then none of those expenses would have to be paid. Earning that check and covering those expenses doesn't benefit anyone beyond me.

I try to make those 40 hours per week more meaningful by working at a job that produces something that helps others. It's not the same as working directly with/for the public at the library or another non-profit, but the courses I write provide value to people getting jobs or maintaining professional licenses or driving permits and other such things. My direct supervisor understands and respects my personal ethics and has promised never to ask me to develop any course materials that would be problematic. And the company, itself, tries to be a good corporate citizen by offering us a few hours of paid volunteer time every year and being intentional about addressing diversity and inclusion. I also give a percentage of my salary to causes and organizations I support.

It's something, but it doesn't really fuel a passionate desire to get up and tackle every day.

Then, if I spend 90 minutes each day exercising, I benefit directly from improved health. I also benefit from enjoying nature when I get a chance to do some of my walking outside and/or from being educated and/or entertained by listening to podcasts while walking or watching videos while riding the stationary bike. I derive satisfaction from earning virtual badges and medals when I complete challenges. I like the way it feels to move my body and do more with it.

When selecting challenges to take on, I look first for events that direct at least some small portion of the proceeds to a charity whose mission I like, but the truth is that those charities would benefit a lot more if I just wrote them a check for the equivalent of the entire challenge entry fee and then went for a walk and forgot about the medal.

If I turn this whole concept sidewalks and squint hard, I can tell myself that maintaining my health as best I can benefits my family because I will (one can hope) cost us less in medical bills and continue to earn longer and be less of an emotional burden as I get older. But, again, that doesn't actually put anyone ahead of where they would be if I weren't here. 

And that's the part I can't get past. 

I'm trying to find a way for my daily life to be a net positive for people besides myself.

Edited November 22, 2020 by Jenny in Florida

[Jean in Newcastle]

6 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

I've been thinking more about this. Day to day, I try to just enjoy what I have. This morning I was happy that our new house has a big utility room sink that made rinsing my wetsuit èasier.

However, my over-arching purpose is still to be useful to my children, and this helps to take me forwards.  Setting up our lives to be as independent as possible over the coming decades is a firm purpose.  This keeps me working full time when we could probably manage with less right now.  It feeds into my nutrition and exercise.  We chose a place to live to further those goals. Even future volunteering plans are partly to keep me mentally and socially as fit as possible for old age.  I don't want to micromanage my adult children's lives. But I  can manage my own life partly for them. 

This strong purpose comes from watching my mother's old age. I'm sure I will make different mistakes,  but I'm trying not to repeat the same ones.

I have the same goals/ execution of them with old age in mind. 

BTW - even though my almost 96 year old mom can be annoying at time (can't we all?) she still very much enriches my life.  I miss my dad (who died at 92) and wish that I could talk to him.  I also enrich and impact the life of my husband who loves me and would miss me very much (as I would miss him).  I also have friends who would miss me and my impact on their lives.  I don't think that any of these people (children, spouse, family or friends) would not be able to go on without me here or anything but I do think that I add to their lives because I see how they add to mine. 

[Carol in Cal.]

Although I think that it’s good to try to be a net positive in life, I also think that people have inherent value.  There is great value in presence, also.  I remember how much I wanted my grandmother to live to see my baby, even though she was weak and felt useless when she was dying.  It was a lot of physical work to take care of her, but having her with us alive was definitely a net 

positive.

Edited November 22, 2020 by Carol in Cal.

[katilac]

I think the dolphins got it right: 

“For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much—the wheel, New York, wars and so on—whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons.” Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy 

 

[katilac]

 lewelmama, the board ate your quote and I'm not up for finding it again. This is in reference to your post saying that the thought of your dh losing his job is stressful, but also a covid thing, a temporary thing. 

Please do not think that I am trying to dismiss that this is stressful for your family, because I am not, but I did want to offer some perspective on one significant reason Americans may find it harder to view losing a job during the pandemic as something that will pass, something that is temporary. 

In America, health insurance is most often tied to your specific employment. Lose your job, lose your health insurance. Get sick while you are uninsured or under-insured, and it can devastate your finances.   

Medical debts can be sent to collections, even if you are making regular payments, and that has a negative effect on your credit score (which has the domino effect of paying higher interest rates on loans to buy needed items like a car, and then you have even less money for medical expenses, and it just spirals). 

Even people with good jobs, good insurance, and good savings can be wiped out by certain medical diagnoses and the accompanying expenses. Fundraisers to pay medical expenses are pretty common. It's not just that you can have medical debt after a procedure - you often need cash in hand to get the procedure. Or the medicine - certain medicines can be insanely expensive even with good insurance.

I know this is a digression from the main point of this thread, but I also think it shows how people view things differently not just because of different attitudes, but because they are actually looking at a different reality. Also, I rarely pass on a chance to point out the flaws in the American healthcare system 😉

[kbutton]

I do not have experience with the intensity of this kind of existential crisis, but I am concerned I will feel the same in a few years (or before). 

I am wondering if looking into Dabrowski's theory of positive disintegration would be useful. 

Also, if you are interesting in therapy, perhaps finding someone on the Hoagies' Gifted list or SENG would provider you with someone who is more experienced with your needs.

https://www.sengifted.org/providers

https://www.hoagiesgifted.org/psychologists.htm

[Jaybee]

On 11/18/2020 at 1:07 PM, regentrude said:

 

Humans have developed religion to find an answer for the question about life's meaning. I think in some sense that's a cop-out. If one has no answer,  one  can always say "God".

 

I left off reading this thread for several days, thinking through the questions a lot. And the truth is, without God, I don't see meaning and purpose. It is not a cop-out; it goes to the deepest part of my being, and answers questions that I can't get answered in any other way. I'm not talking about "religion" or philosophies. I'm not talking about working up some system of beliefs. I know that many here have dismissed God as untrue or unimportant, and not worthy of exploring, for whatever reasons. And I don't plan on going into a full-on apologetics discussion. But if you all are truly questioning meaning and purpose, what would be the harm in asking God to show you that? If He isn't there, no harm done. But if, as I truly believe, He is and is who He says He is, then perhaps you might find a treasure above all treasures. Again, I'm not talking about "religion." I'm talking about a deep and living relationship. 

[Jenny in Florida]

2 hours ago, katilac said:

I think the dolphins got it right: 

“For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much—the wheel, New York, wars and so on—whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons.” Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy 

 

I appreciate the thought. But I have to confess that I intensely dislike Hitchhiker's Guide. The only Douglas Adams I've ever enjoyed was Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency (which I haven't read in decades and might not even like now). 

In the spirit of playing along, however, I will offer this quote from Dirk Gently that nicely sums up why I have so much appreciated the willingness of you all to hash this through with me:

Quote

What I mean is that if you really want to understand something, the best way is to try and explain it to someone else. That forces you to sort it out in your mind.

 

[Jenny in Florida]

33 minutes ago, Jaybee said:

I left off reading this thread for several days, thinking through the questions a lot. And the truth is, without God, I don't see meaning and purpose. It is not a cop-out; it goes to the deepest part of my being, and answers questions that I can't get answered in any other way. I'm not talking about "religion" or philosophies. I'm not talking about working up some system of beliefs. I know that many here have dismissed God as untrue or unimportant, and not worthy of exploring, for whatever reasons. And I don't plan on going into a full-on apologetics discussion. But if you all are truly questioning meaning and purpose, what would be the harm in asking God to show you that? If He isn't there, no harm done. But if, as I truly believe, He is and is who He says He is, then perhaps you might find a treasure above all treasures. Again, I'm not talking about "religion." I'm talking about a deep and living relationship. 

I agree with you that belief in something outside yourself is not a cop-out. One of the reasons I think I am struggling so hard with all of this is that, although I have never been a traditional believer, I have always harbored my own weird but deeply held spiritual connection to something. And that something has come through for me in times past. 

Now, though, I just don't feel it. 

Over the last couple of years -- and particularly when I first went really downhill this past spring -- I definitely put out feelers to see if I could reconnect with any of that belief. I was not able to feel it at all, and even experiences and places that used to resonate on a spiritual level for me have gone cold. In fact, some things I used to love (most music, being the foremost example) I can just barely tolerate. 

That said, I have never believed in any kind of afterlife. It happens to be one of my absolutely favorite topics for fiction, but I don't expect to continue in any recognizable way after my death. Therefore, if my life is going to have meaning, that's going to have to be something I construct while I'm alive. 

[bookbard]

Quote

I'm trying to find a way for my daily life to be a net positive for people besides myself.

And that's why I think focusing on becoming a better person is important, because you can develop wisdom which helps both the people around you and society as a whole.

For me, it's about several things. Firstly, understanding what it really means to live on stolen land, to live as one who benefits from the dispossession of the Indigenous people. So I read a lot and think a lot about what that means.

Secondly, working on what it means to have integrity. There has been a lot of corruption scandals in our media (Australia) lately. How do you become a person of integrity who isn't tempted to be corrupt, either in small things or large?

There are other issues too of course, but those are the things I'm reading and thinking about and trying to work on. Not in a tick the box way or achievement way. But slowly. And people are so interconnected - changing myself does, I believe, change the world.

[katilac]

46 minutes ago, Jenny in Florida said:

I appreciate the thought. But I have to confess that I intensely dislike Hitchhiker's Guide.  

I won't hold it against you. One of my kids didn't get it and the other didn't bother to read it, so I've learned that I can like people in spite of their mistaken views about this 😄

 

[regentrude]

On 11/18/2020 at 7:16 PM, R828 said:

That said, Regentrude I’m curious why you think finding your ultimate purpose in God is a cop out. Not everyone may want to or be able to believe in God but it seems to me that God is as valid an answer to this question as anything else. 

ETA I ask this in an ‘I really want to hear your thoughts and discuss this’ way, I’m not trying to be contrary. 

I called it a cop-out because God serves as the ultimate wildcard when it comes to questions for which humans do not have an answer. To me, answering the question about the purpose of existence with a higher power who works in mysterious ways that surpass human understanding is the same as replacing the unknown X in an equation with a new unknown variable called Y.  It is still not an answer, because humans have justified everything, from charitable works to heinous atrocities, as acting in the name of God. They have claimed to glorify God's name by caring for the poor and by killing people who have other beliefs - they are acting more like man creating God in his image than vice versa. There is so much disagreement about what God wants and each person is picking and choosing that it is the same as the person creating their own meaning.

And like you, I am just answering because you asked. Not interested in starting a religious debate. I have reasons why I am no longer a believer.

Edited November 22, 2020 by regentrude

[regentrude]

44 minutes ago, Jenny in Florida said:

I have always harbored my own weird but deeply held spiritual connection to something. And that something has come through for me in times past. 

Now, though, I just don't feel it. 

Over the last couple of years -- and particularly when I first went really downhill this past spring -- I definitely put out feelers to see if I could reconnect with any of that belief. I was not able to feel it at all, and even experiences and places that used to resonate on a spiritual level for me have gone cold. In fact, some things I used to love (most music, being the foremost example) I can just barely tolerate. 

Jenny, this is exactly the experience I had - which is why I am adamant that what we are discussing here is, first and foremost, a spiritual crisis, and not a clinical depression. 
To me, my deepest spiritual experiences were related to being in nature, and it was very disturbing not to be able to tap into that connection anymore. I kept hiking every week, but it was going through the motion; I could see the beauty in an abstract way and even take photographs for my page because I rationally recognized that these are the images that bring other people joy - but I could not, myself, feel it inside. I remember the day when the first glimpse of this sensation came back.

[Scarlett]

5 hours ago, Jaybee said:

I left off reading this thread for several days, thinking through the questions a lot. And the truth is, without God, I don't see meaning and purpose. It is not a cop-out; it goes to the deepest part of my being, and answers questions that I can't get answered in any other way. I'm not talking about "religion" or philosophies. I'm not talking about working up some system of beliefs. I know that many here have dismissed God as untrue or unimportant, and not worthy of exploring, for whatever reasons. And I don't plan on going into a full-on apologetics discussion. But if you all are truly questioning meaning and purpose, what would be the harm in asking God to show you that? If He isn't there, no harm done. But if, as I truly believe, He is and is who He says He is, then perhaps you might find a treasure above all treasures. Again, I'm not talking about "religion." I'm talking about a deep and living relationship. 

This is an amazing post.  Thank you.  I have struggled long and hard and can find no meaning without a Supreme God being in the mix.