Purpose / Meaning / Joy - Some kind of framework?

[Scarlett]

4 hours ago, lewelma said:

Oh, I completely agree. But I just wouldn't plan for 15 years of anything.  My father was and is a role model for me. He changed career paths every 10 years or so.  He was a heart surgeon, then retrained in hospital administration and ran hospitals, then switched to running a university medical center, then switched to working in the Department of Health for the state government making policy, then became a professor and ran the cadaver human anatomy classes, then switched to be a professor in public health and public speaker, then at 78 they asked him to be the head of the department so he spent 2 years cleaning it up (he did at that point have a LOT of management experience), and now that he is retired he has 5 book contracts -- 2 in health and 3 in history.  He was never locked in, and I won't be either.

My grandmother lived independently in her own home until she was 103 (still wearing high heels until 3 weeks before she died), and my father at 82 is writing books, and lots of them.  I'm 50. I just can't say I'm ready to coast.  That is a LOT of coasting given my genetics, and I don't think I can do it. But if I don't like the field that I choose, then I can *change*.  If doing water remediation becomes boring, then I can go into communication on science topics.  Or I could go into lobbying. Or I could teach.  I can be like my father and change when I need a shake up.  I am keen to enjoy my life, help where I can, and embrace the positive. 

I think all of that is great.  Really it sounds like you come from a family of fascinating people.  But all of that has nothing to do with that feeling of nothing comparing to what you have already done. 

[EKS]

On 11/14/2020 at 2:34 PM, livetoread said:

Shrooms? I have never tried them, but I have read about some very interesting results using psychedelics for similar things. If I found myself in your situation and other traditional methods hadn’t worked, I’d be exploring some of the psychedelics myself. Not saying I’d just grab acid and try it or anything nuts, but I’d be open to something anyway.

Having taken both (not at the same time) many, many, many years ago, I vastly prefer LSD to mushrooms, since mushrooms cause nausea.  I don't know if pure psilocybin would have the same problem or not.

[Rosie_0801]

10 minutes ago, regentrude said:

but the two can be intimately related. The intrusive thoughts can stem from the lack of a sense of purpose. How many people who have a clear sense of purpose have intrusive thoughts of hopelessness or suicide? I would guess not many. 

Probably not, no.

What's a sense of purpose for? To get you out of bed in the morning? You have reasons to do that. What else is it for? What discomforts would disappear if you woke up tomorrow with one?

My issue is not just that specific people are missing from my life. It's that specific categories of people are missing from my life. That line about the "heir and spare" is a thing. I ran out of spares. Different categories of people exercise different parts of our personalities. I need to mother and have nobody to mother most of the time. That sort of thing. From what you've said in other threads, the category missing in your life is that of active friends, the kind that call you before you call them.

[regentrude]

14 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

What's a sense of purpose for? To get you out of bed in the morning? You have reasons to do that. What else is it for? What discomforts would disappear if you woke up tomorrow with one?

What would disappear? The feeling of being alive out of obligation. 
I want to feel excited about life again. As if my existence actually matters. Beyond having raised kids.
Getting out of bed to so I can go to work doesn't quite cut it. And it sounds like the OP is in a very similar situation and this is the reason for her thread.

ETA: I know that you have suffered great pain and am sorry for that. 

2nd ETA: And the difficulty with the search for meaning is compounded by feeling like an ungrateful bitch for not counting my blessings and being content with them.  I know.

Edited November 17, 2020 by regentrude

[Rosie_0801]

2 minutes ago, regentrude said:

What would disappear? The feeling of being alive out of obligation. 
I want to feel excited about life again. As if my existence actually matters. Beyond having raised kids.

And helped others raise theirs. 🙂

I think feeling excited about life is a rare and wonderful thing, rather than the default. 
But that's a shitty thought, so let's not think it.

This might be dumb, but have you tried a mind map based on the butterfly effect? It might not help you *feel* better, but it might let you *see* further.

[regentrude]

2 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

This might be dumb, but have you tried a mind map based on the butterfly effect? It might not help you *feel* better, but it might let you *see* further.

what is that? I have never heard of that

[Rosie_0801]

16 minutes ago, regentrude said:

what is that? I have never heard of that

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect

Except people use it to talk of the effect one human can have on another.  There are all sorts of chain reactions we set off, mostly without knowing.

[regentrude]

2 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect

Except people use it to talk of the effect one human can have on another.  There are all sorts of chain reactions we set off, mostly without knowing.

I am familiar with the concept from physics. You're talking of stuff like in "It's a wonderful life"?

[Rosie_0801]

9 minutes ago, regentrude said:

I am familiar with the concept from physics. You're talking of stuff like in "It's a wonderful life"?

Dunno. Never saw it. lol

I'm talking about stuff like how my brother's friend changed her entire philosophy on parenting because of one sentence she heard me say to my daughter. Like how something Ester Maria said widened how I think about parenting mine. This isn't just about a mother-child relationship or two. It's the kind of stuff that heals lineages.
Like how the training I got from one friend made me grow in ways that allow me to be friends with another person, who I would have found overwhelming and had to avoid otherwise. Stuff like that.

[lewelma]

49 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

  But all of that has nothing to do with that feeling of nothing comparing to what you have already done. 

Can you expand on this. I'm not clear what you are talking about. 

[Scarlett]

14 minutes ago, lewelma said:

Can you expand on this. I'm not clear what you are talking about. 

You can have a plan for what you are going to do when your children are raised.  But for some there is nothing that compares to raising a child.....in some ways I think I would have been happier now if I have never had a child.  I was not unhappy before I had a child at age 35, even though I really wanted one.  But I put everything in to him and poof it was gone in an instant. 

[lewelma]

54 minutes ago, regentrude said:

I want to feel excited about life again. As if my existence actually matters.

I think these things are different.  I can make no impact in this world, and still be excited about life.  I can plant a beautiful flower garden this year, knowing that it will be gone next year.  Nothing to show for the work I have done. But I can gain great joy by planting it and seeing the flowers. 

If you want your existence to matter, you need to think carefully about how you define that.  Is it impacting lots of people like a politician making policy or a novelist who becomes quite famous.  My father who I mentioned above had small impacts on many many people through his doctoring, teaching, and policy making. He was important with a big I. But me, I impact just a few people, but do it in a profound way.  I have taught a girl who was living out of the dumpster and convinced her to do the work to get into university and focus in political science because she was such an activist. So to 'matter' do you want people to remember you?  Do you want to change your community?  I want to clean up NZ rivers. I can make a major impact to the environment and to people who love the rivers.  

But if instead, you just want to enjoy life, you can go sit in your back yard every day and listen to the birds and read a good book.  You could set goals, like reading all of the Mann Booker Prize winners.  These things won't make you matter, but they can give your life purpose. 

[lewelma]

14 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

You can have a plan for what you are going to do when your children are raised.  But for some there is nothing that compares to raising a child.....in some ways I think I would have been happier now if I have never had a child.  I was not unhappy before I had a child at age 35, even though I really wanted one.  But I put everything in to him and poof it was gone in an instant. 

Wow that is rough.  How about finding your next best option?  There is nothing wrong with finding purpose in a secondary love.  My niece flipped her car driving back from university at the age of 21 and is a paraplegic.  She was going into costume design, but when she finished her degree (delayed by a year of recovery), and moved out to LA, she found that she could not get a job because she could not reach the hangers that the clothes were hung on, and she could not climb the steps to the second floor, etc.  She is now focusing in teaching people to sew.  They come to her house for lessons.  Not what she wanted when she was younger, but she is enjoying it now and has quite a clientele base.  She made peace with her limitations. 

[regentrude]

34 minutes ago, lewelma said:

I think these things are different.  I 

But if instead, you just want to enjoy life, you can go sit in your back yard every day and listen to the birds and read a good book.  You could set goals, like reading all of the Mann Booker Prize winners.  These things won't make you matter, but they can give your life purpose. 

See, I struggle with considering this "purpose". (Yes, I'm totally colonized by the wretched protestant work ethic and it's hard to overcome these paradigms that have been instilled since childhood.) I wish I could see it as the purpose of life to just be and enjoy myself. Setting artificial goals like the mentioned are a good way to obfuscate that one is doing something with no real purpose and disguising it as "achievement ". I am very good at achieving and striving. Not so good at accepting Being as enough purpose for life.

Edited November 17, 2020 by regentrude

[lewelma]

1 minute ago, regentrude said:

See, I struggle with considering this "purpose". 

Ok!  Now I see where the problem lies.  You don't want a purpose, you want to matter.  Well, do you want to make profound impacts on a few, or minor impacts on many.  That is your starting point I think.

[lewelma]

2 minutes ago, regentrude said:

See, I struggle with considering this "purpose". 

I actually do have one of my purposes is to read through all the economics and political science content on Wikipedia.  I *love* it. It is so fun, and it gives my life purpose.  But I also am ready to matter to more than just a few, which is why I want to clean up rivers!  

[regentrude]

1 minute ago, lewelma said:

Ok!  Now I see where the problem lies.  You don't want a purpose, you want to matter.  Well, do you want to make profound impacts on a few, or minor impacts on many.  That is your starting point I think.

I don't know. Maybe the issue has to do with feeling replaceable. I teach. 900 students each year. But if I were dead, they'd simply hire someone else to do the same job. 

[lewelma]

5 minutes ago, regentrude said:

 Setting artificial goals like the mentioned are a good way to obfuscate that one is doing something with no real purpose and disguising it ad "achievement ".

I disagree with this.  Achievement is how *you* define it.  Recognition is if you want others' to value it.

[regentrude]

12 minutes ago, lewelma said:

I disagree with this.  Achievement is how *you* define it.  Recognition is if you want others' to value it.

No, to me " achievement " here is the setting of some goal and having something to strive for (it has to be hard, otherwise it's not an "achievement"). That's independent of external recognition. And as a perfectionist overachiever,  I know I must free myself from seeking meaning in "achievement". I can achieve lots, but as soon as the goal is reached, the ennui is back. The depression into which I fell after I had completed PhD,  postdoc, and birth of two kids was exactly that, and it's similar now. I thought of going back to school,  but that would just keep me busy so I wouldn't think about this for a few years, and then it would be back to square one.

I don't want anything where I can meet measurable milestones or reach "completion " because I would strive relentlessly (something I am really good at)...and that is not what my soul needs.

If that makes any sense. 

Eta: For a while,  I thought that I just needed a challenge,  but I suspect that may be exactly the wrong thing.

Edited November 17, 2020 by regentrude

[Carol in Cal.]

2 hours ago, regentrude said:

That's a interesting approach. I never thought about most thoughts requiring a solution. Does that mean we should only think thoughts and feel feelings that can be solved? 
I am envisioning what it would be like to ban any unpleasant thoughts... that sounds like living in a cult of relentless positivity and seems to me lacking facets of the human experience. Sometimes pain is a great motivator that kicks us off out of an oversaturated stale situation... in which we'd remain if contentment were the ultimate goal.
IS contentment what life is all about? 

I don’t think that we should limit ourselves utterly, but there IS a time and a place for limiting these thoughts if they are really messing us up and yet we are stuck in the situations that they are winding us around the axel on.  

Is contentment what life is all about—no, but Godliness with contentment is great gain, as the Bible says.  That doesn’t mean don’t strive.  Rather it means strive while being basically contented.  Discontent can be a motivator for striving, but it is not a requirement for striving.  Just like terror can be a motivator for being self-protective, but it is not a requirement for being self-protective.  

[lewelma]

Just now, regentrude said:

I don't know. Maybe the issue has to do with feeling replaceable. I teach. 900 students each year. But if I were dead, they'd simply hire someone else to do the same job. 

Ah, the old pulling your fist out of bucket of water problem. Well, teach in a way that makes you better than anyone they could replace you with!!  Haven't you ever had a teacher whom you adored?!?!  My organic chemistry teacher at Duke was a.m.a.z.i.n.g. And my coastal geography teacher has impacted my perception of policy in a profound way all these years later.  I'm guessing you get no recognition for all your efforts even if you matter to these students, which is really stinks.

[lewelma]

20 minutes ago, regentrude said:

 (it has to be hard, otherwise it's not an "achievement").

Well, it sounds like being satisfied with a simple life is hard for you, so if you can emotionally at peace with where you are in life then you have 'achieved.'

[lewelma]

27 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Maybe the issue has to do with feeling replaceable.

Are we not all replaceable?  

[regentrude]

2 minutes ago, lewelma said:

Well, it sounds like being satisfied with a simple life is hard for you, so if you can emotionally at peace with where you are in life then you have 'achieved.'

bahaha.

I'm just so... bored with it all, I guess. Like the OP. Hey @Jenny in Florida, do weigh in... I feel bad for talking so much on your thread, but it's really all questions I have been wrestling with.

[bookbard]

Really interesting discussion.

Re: the replaceable thing, when I was reading a lot of Indigenous literatures last year, one of the ideas that made me think was the idea of NOT leaving a trace on the earth, of leaving the earth the way it was, as though we'd never been - it was the complete opposite of the western longing to 'make our mark', statues, buildings, changes. I sometimes try to hold both ideas in my mind - they're contradictory but both interesting.

Re: the achievement thing: it's a real gifted adult issue. What happens when we're done? I read a fantastic chapter in a book online about this issue, and I will try to find it. The author was saying you have to stop lining up achievements, because of the emptiness once they're 'ticked off'. Instead, it's about changing yourself, becoming a better person (whether you follow the stoics or buddha or . . .) Again, something I think about a lot too.

I think both issues are common and normal and you shouldn't feel guilty about them. I mean it's about how we live and how we die. It's about how biology and culture fit together - our biology asks us to reproduce and raise living descendants and culture asks us to hand on our knowledge on. And it's about the fact we live in a very large world, and that sense of being unique is worn away by all those other people. 

 

[regentrude]

3 minutes ago, bookbard said:

Re: the achievement thing: it's a real gifted adult issue. What happens when we're done? I read a fantastic chapter in a book online about this issue, and I will try to find it. The author was saying you have to stop lining up achievements, because of the emptiness once they're 'ticked off'. Instead, it's about changing yourself, becoming a better person (whether you follow the stoics or buddha or . . .)

YES!!! That's exactly what I have been feeling. 

[bookbard]

I'll try to find the article. I understand the urge - I feel lucky I had my kids late so I've got years ahead of finishing them off lol

[Rosie_0801]

Amanda Palmer has a podcast, talking to people about Real Stuff.
Dunno if it would appeal to any of you, but sometimes it helps to listen to people talk about Real Stuff. https://amandapalmer.net/podcast 

[Jenny in Florida]

On 11/15/2020 at 6:57 AM, wintermom said:

Just a wild thought - something I've been doing to various degrees for the past 7 years, volunteer with a guide dog agency to be a guide dog for the blind 'puppy walker' or person who raises the puppy from 8 weeks or so (can start at 4 months) to 2 years, when the puppy is ready for the serious training. 

Unfortunately, for all the reasons I mentioned before, I am not in a position to take in another animal, even on a temporary basis. 

[Jenny in Florida]

@regentrude I have similar challenges.  When I was younger, I thought nothing of hopping off whatever employment train I was on and heading off in a different direction whenever I got bored. And even the first couple of years after I started back to work post-homeschooling involved a certain amount of what-the-hell-I'll-try-this-for-a-while exploration.  However, at some point the combination of realizing that I enjoy bringing home enough money to actually help make a meaningful dent in our bills and to help pay down the debt we acquired while I was home with the kids, the feeling of accomplishment that came from having clawed my way back into a "real" full-time job after decades out of the workforce and the uncomfortable fact that I ain't getting any younger gelled into an understanding that my best plan is not to keep flitting about. 

I will admit to being a bit spooked by how tough it was to get another job after quitting the one that was making me miserable almost two years ago. Even pre-pandemic when the job market was supposedly great and unemployment was at record lows and with nearly three years of solid, recent job experience and updated professional credentials on my resume . . . I was job hunting longer and harder than had been the case for me since I first got out of college. Some things just aren't as easy when you get older. Now that I found my way into a decent job with a company that treats me well and in which I work with people I like and I don't hate or resent the actual work, I'd be very hesitant to chuck it without a darned good reason and a solid plan for a follow-up.

My family has also done pretty well in the longevity line, but I seem to have more health issues than most of my recent forebears have experienced. (Which also means that stable and good-quality employer-based health insurance is a good thing to have.) Nonetheless, if the cancer or other ailments don't get me in the near future, if I/we intend to have anything like a comfortable retirement, continuing to sock away money into a 401K with a healthy employer match is going to be important. 

And, although we don't live in a small town, there are a number of reasons why my husband is pretty securely tied to his employer and, therefore, this location. 

So, while there is for sure a part of me that would love to just toss it all and reinvent myself every 10 years, for me, that era of my life has passed.

Edited November 17, 2020 by Jenny in Florida

[Frances]

2 hours ago, regentrude said:

Sorry, I forgot not to quote.

From what I’ve experienced and seen in STEM professors over the course of both my and my husband’s post secondary education and his career in academia, individuals who are excellent teachers and/or mentors are rare. They are the exception, not the rule. Even though my husband is no longer in academia, I have no doubt he left a lasting legacy, just as his two primary mentors had a profound impact on his life.

 

Edited November 17, 2020 by Frances

[Jenny in Florida]

5 hours ago, lewelma said:

I remember reading years ago about Charlotte Mason's thoughts on "the way of the will." The interpretation that I read was "if you don't like a thought, then change it." Clearly, this is easier for some people than others, but apparently Mason had come upon the same approach that I fell into.  If I don't like a thought, I change it.  I have taught 'the way of the will' to my younger son from a young age, and he has mastered it.  If he is really upset and hormonal, it might take him 5 minutes to turn it around, but he knows how to control his mind and can usually do it in the moment.  I don't want to be dismissive of all the struggles that so many people out there have especially if mental illness is involved, but learning meditation might be something to consider to help with the feelings of ennui. 

I think it may be worth stating that I have always been that person, too. When faced with obstacles, I always managed to view them as challenges (not always right away, but quickly) and to put all of my energy into finding the next best thing or the way around a problem or some entirely new alternative. I lived by the philosophy that "things usually work out" and would expound ad nauseum on my personal experiences with that concept, how many times even the experiences that seemed awful in the moment propelled me onto a path that turned out to be just right but that I might never have discovered otherwise . . . blah, blah, blah.

But nowadays? I'm over it. I can point to a pretty hefty handful of experiences from the last few years of my life that have had no silver linings and led to no positive personal growth. I've flat out run out of energy to keep scraping up enthusiasm for finding the way over or around the next mountain. Or, worse, to think of a reason to keep going when all I see for miles in any direction is bland plateau. 

[Jenny in Florida]

3 hours ago, lewelma said:

Can you expand on this. I'm not clear what you are talking about. 

After several years of flailing around, trying different things, acquiring new professional certifications and academic credentials and always assuming (at first) or at least hoping (after a while) that something more interesting or fulfilling was on the horizon if I just hung on and kept working, I came to the conclusion that I was not likely to ever again feel as engaged or invested in what I was doing as I did while being a full-time mom. 

Sure, I can think of a lot of stuff to do to fill my time, some of which may be meaningful to others or to myself in some way, some of which may be fun or interesting. But none of it will compare to raising and educating my kids. That period of my life is over. And I'm staring down whatever decades I have left with nothing nearly as important or soul-filling on which to spend my days.

Edited November 17, 2020 by Jenny in Florida

[Frances]

I 

Edited November 17, 2020 by Frances

[Jenny in Florida]

3 hours ago, lewelma said:

I think these things are different.  I can make no impact in this world, and still be excited about life.  I can plant a beautiful flower garden this year, knowing that it will be gone next year.  Nothing to show for the work I have done. But I can gain great joy by planting it and seeing the flowers. 

If you want your existence to matter, you need to think carefully about how you define that.  Is it impacting lots of people like a politician making policy or a novelist who becomes quite famous.  My father who I mentioned above had small impacts on many many people through his doctoring, teaching, and policy making. He was important with a big I. But me, I impact just a few people, but do it in a profound way.  I have taught a girl who was living out of the dumpster and convinced her to do the work to get into university and focus in political science because she was such an activist. So to 'matter' do you want people to remember you?  Do you want to change your community?  I want to clean up NZ rivers. I can make a major impact to the environment and to people who love the rivers.  

But if instead, you just want to enjoy life, you can go sit in your back yard every day and listen to the birds and read a good book.  You could set goals, like reading all of the Mann Booker Prize winners.  These things won't make you matter, but they can give your life purpose. 

I absolutely want my life to matter, but I don't need to feel or be considered "Important." And I certainly don't need or expect to be remembered by anyone except my loved ones. 

I want to give back more than I have withdrawn or used up. 

[Jenny in Florida]

2 hours ago, regentrude said:

bahaha.

I'm just so... bored with it all, I guess. Like the OP. Hey @Jenny in Florida, do weigh in... I feel bad for talking so much on your thread, but it's really all questions I have been wrestling with.

I seriously appreciate your thoughts here. I find myself just wanting to click "like" over and over, because it feels like we're very much struggling with similar feelings, but your perspective is different enough from mine to be really thought provoking.

I did have to step away from the thread today because work was crazy busy and stressful, but I'm glad to find you all have been continuing to discuss.

Reading and weighing in . . .

[lewelma]

3 hours ago, Jenny in Florida said:

I can point to a pretty hefty handful of experiences from the last few years of my life that have had no silver linings and led to no positive personal growth.

I believe that we choose. We choose to be happy and positive. I'm going to bring up my niece in the wheel chair again because she said something to me once that really impacted how I view the world.  It was about a month after her accident, and she was still in the hospital.  She was despondent and would not eat or talk -- she had woken up 2 weeks prior to find that she would never walk again, that she could not have children, and that her life expectancy was 45. She was 21 at the time. She told me about a visitor she had who was the Wisconsin paraplegic of the year or some such. And this girl gave her the Hard Talk.  People did not want my niece to be upset. People did not want to hear her angst.  She needed to get over it and find a way to make it on her own in this world. To not be dependent financially or emotionally.  That it was up to her and her alone to change her attitude and rejoin society.  It was up to her to be the person she wanted to be.

Tough love, but it worked.  She finished college, started dating, got married, and became self employed. 

I think people *choose* to find meaning in their life. I'm not talking about finding a silver lining in hardship. Rather I'm talking about accepting the life you have, choosing to make the best of it, choosing to enjoy the small things, choosing to be a joy to those around you, and choosing to embrace who you are.  I am not some pollyanna, but I would rather enjoy life than be constantly dissatisfied. How you interpret your life is in your mind. 

Edited November 17, 2020 by lewelma

[regentrude]

5 hours ago, lewelma said:

I believe that we choose. We choose to be happy and positive....

 I am not some pollyanna, but I would rather enjoy life than be constantly dissatisfied. How you interpret your life is in your mind. 

Oh, this will be such a comfort to the folks who struggle trying to stay alive every day. I need to share this in my mental health support group: they may not know that they just have to choose.

Sarcasm off. That is a slap in the face of people who struggle with depression. Don't you think they all would rather enjoy life? Does anybody choose bouncing from suicide attempt to psych ward?
One does not tell a person in a wheelchair they should just choose to walk.

I value and respect you, lewelma, but this particular phrase always makes me angry. (I think we had that come up in another thread earlier this year) Maybe I'm too sensitive, but these words trigger a visceral response.

Edited November 17, 2020 by regentrude

[Jenny in Florida]

8 hours ago, lewelma said:

I believe that we choose. We choose to be happy and positive. I'm going to bring up my niece in the wheel chair again because she said something to me once that really impacted how I view the world.  It was about a month after her accident, and she was still in the hospital.  She was despondent and would not eat or talk -- she had woken up 2 weeks prior to find that she would never walk again, that she could not have children, and that her life expectancy was 45. She was 21 at the time. She told me about a visitor she had who was the Wisconsin paraplegic of the year or some such. And this girl gave her the Hard Talk.  People did not want my niece to be upset. People did not want to hear her angst.  She needed to get over it and find a way to make it on her own in this world. To not be dependent financially or emotionally.  That it was up to her and her alone to change her attitude and rejoin society.  It was up to her to be the person she wanted to be.

Tough love, but it worked.  She finished college, started dating, got married, and became self employed. 

I think people *choose* to find meaning in their life. I'm not talking about finding a silver lining in hardship. Rather I'm talking about accepting the life you have, choosing to make the best of it, choosing to enjoy the small things, choosing to be a joy to those around you, and choosing to embrace who you are.  I am not some pollyanna, but I would rather enjoy life than be constantly dissatisfied. How you interpret your life is in your mind. 

Sorry, but that is exactly how I would define a Pollyanna. And there's nothing wrong with that. There was a period in my life when my co-workers used to refer to me as "Little Jenny Sunshine."

Nowadays, though, being told that I can simply choose to feel differently is infuriating and, hard truth, the opposite of helpful. 

It's like that marketing campaign of the local hospital chain (where I receive most of my treatment) that shows pretty photos of happy people out living pretty, happy lives and exhorts me to "Feel Whole" and "Feel Loved" and "Feel Supported," etc. Every time I see them as the background on computer screens in my doctors' offices, I want to cry because I. Just. Can't.

(Let's not even get into the irony of being instructed by the organization that literally cut off parts of my body --for good reason, I acknowledge -- to "feel whole." It's insulting.)

I know it's all meant to be helpful and inspiring, but it just makes me feel like more of a failure.

Edited November 17, 2020 by Jenny in Florida

[Jenny in Florida]

38 minutes ago, regentrude said:

One does not tell a person in a wheelchair they should just choose to walk.

Bingo. 

1. It doesn't work.

2. It makes their inability to walk their own failure.

[Ausmumof3]

Any history of seasonal depression?  Just thinking you guys are coming into winter and it might be worth being aware of.  It’s so hard sometimes to figure out whether the thought processes are a product of depression or a cause. 
 

Also regentrude I remember when I talked about how I was trying to get some house cleaning done through the holidays and was struggling to focus you mentioned that you often felt like that for the first week but then you kind of had to “let it wash over you” for a bit and in no time you would find your focus and be cleaning drawers etc.  I wonder if this time is a bit like this.  It’s a transition time where the focus is lost for a while but maybe you just need a little bit of time to regroup and find that drive again?  I know in other post homeschooling mums I have seen that.  There’s kind of a stagnant phase before a new flourishing.  

[Ausmumof3]

https://headtohealth.gov.au/meaningful-life/purposeful-activity/purposeful-activity
 

This is from an Australian Covid Specific government mental health site.  I doubt it will be a magic fix but there might be something that is helpful or relatable in there.

[regentrude]

26 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Any history of seasonal depression?  Just thinking you guys are coming into winter and it might be worth being aware of.  It’s so hard sometimes to figure out whether the thought processes are a product of depression or a cause. 
 

Also regentrude I remember when I talked about how I was trying to get some house cleaning done through the holidays and was struggling to focus you mentioned that you often felt like that for the first week but then you kind of had to “let it wash over you” for a bit and in no time you would find your focus and be cleaning drawers etc.  I wonder if this time is a bit like this.  It’s a transition time where the focus is lost for a while but maybe you just need a little bit of time to regroup and find that drive again?  I know in other post homeschooling mums I have seen that.  There’s kind of a stagnant phase before a new flourishing.  

Definitely SAD, but that's not the issue here since what I am talking about has been lasting for several years. My youngest kid is a senior in college.

I am not sure I said what you remember - I usually jump right at the cleaning and organizing as soon as the semester is over and by day three have every last junk drawer straightened and the donations taken to Goodwill 🙂

Edited November 17, 2020 by regentrude

[Familia]

In trying to answer the original question for myself, I believe that my purpose is to “Know, love, and serve God in this world, and be happy with Him in the next”.  Straight from the catechism.  What Rosie wrote about not having to pay so much heed to our emotions (not her exact words, but how I took it) really resonated with me.  We have a lower nature, emotions, memories, and other needs that we share with the animals.  We have a higher nature, made in His likeness, our intellect and will, that we use to direct the lower nature or help make sense of it.  

For me, that is what calms my questioning of my purpose on a day to day or even lifelong level.  I do not mean that I do not question what I need to do next, what the next stage is, or how I can best serve, I mean that I am calmed when I feel frustrated, thinking that my best life is over (active mothering/homeschooling) or when I feel sad that I do not have the obvious gifts or talents or, even, drive that other people seem to have professionally or artistically, etc.  I am kinda vanilla.  My emotions get quite stirred up about those things, yet I am calmed by the fact that what I wrote in the first paragraph is the truth.  Then, I go on to live this (relatively) boring stage of my life and use different ‘tricks’ to keep myself from thinking too much about my gripes (not any/many IRL friends, children do not need me much/at all at times, could always use more money, do not have any seen outside of home purpose/direction right now/etc).  Those ‘tricks’ really just boil down to keeping my hands busy (as in the saying, “idle hands are the ^*&%@&’s handiwork”).  I throw myself into being the best of what I am doing, so keep my home cleaner than I could when homeschooling, try to entertain (even when sad that other’s do not reciprocate often), help my husband in ways that I have time for now.  But, then there is:

True depression.  Although I firmly believe that we should not worry too much about our (lower nature) emotions, that are neither good, nor bad (the acting on them may be at times, but the emotions themselves are neutral)...sometimes, our lower nature is ill.  Sometimes, emotions cannot be tamed or maybe they do not pass with good, honest work.  Then, therapy or medication is certainly warranted.  Picking oneself up by one’s own bootstraps is just not something a depressed person can do.

Edited November 17, 2020 by Familia

[lewelma]

6 hours ago, regentrude said:

That is a slap in the face of people who struggle with depression.

I thought for quite some time about whether I wanted to post that post, and I did because I did think it would be helpful because it had been helpful to me. I am deeply sorry that it was the wrong thing to say.  I have had severe mental illness, and I have taken care of someone who had severe mental illness - she lived below us and I kept her pills, went to her appointments with her, and kept her alive on Christmas day when she tried to commit suicide. I worked with her for about 5 hours a day for a year. We can only walk in our own shoes, and through my experience and her experience I have watched and learned. Her choice was meds and therapy, my choice was to change the way my mind worked through meditation.  There are really only so many options.  With mental illness, the problem is in the mind so the mind has to change. I don't think that is a controversial statement. My sister is a counselor, and she works to help people change they way they think. She gives them homework and they have to do the work. She gets really frustrated when her clients won't do the work. There is just no magic pill, even the meds require therapy, and therapy requires work. There is no way around it, changing how your mind works is a difficult task, I'm sorry if you thought I was suggesting it was a light switch.

[Carol in Cal.]

I would like to add—

I think that making any one thing, even if it is a thing as big as Purpose, into an all or nothing, make or break key to life is eventually going to turn out to be a mistake.  

Life is complicated and messy.  It is super satisfying to have a One True Thing to organize life around.  I’ve had that several times, and it was exhilarating and simplifying and deeply satisfying.  That was true even when it didn’t work out.  There was no real ambiguity to life—I did the next right thing toward that BHAG, and even looking back on it, it was always clear that that was the right next thing to do.  That made it much easier to feel good about choices, and to avoid the complexity of having to balance a bunch of competing priorities.  

But I’ve learned that life is not always that way, that people who live their entire lives that way often regret it, and that living with uncertainty and with several priorities to balance is more realistic most of the time.  It’s easy to feel nostalgic for simpler times with one big goal, but real life doesn’t usually lend itself to organizing in that way.

Other big thing to remember:  Depression always lies.  Just like addiction does.  Depression tells people that things are worse than they are, because the bad stuff is all it can emphasize, not a usually more realistic balance of good and bad.  Neither meds nor habits of mind are the magic cure to all depression, but both can be incrementally helpful, and using meds for a while while working on habits of mind seems to have worked best from a curative and preventative standpoint for the people that I have observed do best with this over the years.  Depression casts a deep gray pall over everything, even many memories, and destroys hope.  The approach of the dementors in Harry Potter describe this pretty well.  When deep depression is in play, it needs to be addressed first, before figuring out the rest.

[Drama Llama]

7 hours ago, regentrude said:

One does not tell a person in a wheelchair they should just choose to walk.

 

I absolutely agree with the rest of your post, but I just wanted to come in and say that people in wheelchairs absolutely get told this, particularly people who use wheelchairs part time.  As a society, Americans (and probably others, I'm limiting this to what I know) have trouble wrapping our mind around the idea of being able to do something some of the time, but not all of the time, either due to stamina or skill.  It's something faced by many people with physical disabilities, and by people with mental illness. 

In both cases, many people are sometimes able to push through and do something really hard, whether that's walking a few steps or getting out of bed and interacting.  And doing those things often leads to judgment because they didn't do it all the time, either because something made it particularly hard (uneven ground, or some sort of emotional trigger) or because of the need to preserve stamina. The latter is particularly hard.  Society places so much value on "pushing through", but it doesn't recognize that doing so can rob someone from other things.  My kid with physical disabilities could walk, but sometimes doing so meant he slept through family dinner, or didn't have enough energy to play legos with his brother.  So, sometimes, he walked and sometimes he chose to be carried or use his wheelchair so he could do those other important things.  People with mental illness face similar choices.  In both cases they'll face judgment. 

Edited November 17, 2020 by BaseballandHockey
Changing "we" to "I" because sadly I am not Queen.

[lewelma]

15 hours ago, Jenny in Florida said:

Now that I found my way into a decent job with a company that treats me well and in which I work with people I like and I don't hate or resent the actual work, I'd be very hesitant to chuck it without a darned good reason and a solid plan for a follow-up.

I had a hot flash last night which kept me up for about an hour, which left me little to do but think!  So I started thinking about what I would specifically do in your circumstance, and this is what I came up with.

Working Life - 8 hours per day

Negative thoughts: If I was stuck in a job for many good reasons, I would get rid of all negative thoughts about it. Not thoughts like I need to talk to my boss about bad things happening. I mean get rid of the thoughts that say that this job is not meaningful, or below me, or not fun.  I would simply cancel those thoughts like I have taught my son to do. Negative thoughts about a job I cannot change will not help me or my life. 

Positive thoughts: I would work to develop positive thoughts every day in my job.  This is mindfulness.  I would notice all the small things I like and keep a gratitude journal just about my work life. Gratitude journals make a difference to how you *perceive* of your life. 

Small changes: I would make small positive changes in my own productivity and interactions with my workmates.  This might mean responding to emails within the hour, this might me improving my lecture notes to be even more clear, or improving the layout of my report I'm turning in. Basically, doing the best job I can do, rather than just making it through the day.

Big changes: I would be entrepreneurial in my own job.  I would offer to take on work that looks interesting. Being a scientist, I would start an after school outreach program for girls, or I would create free science content on line. I would make this job that I am stuck in, more. More what I want it to be. 

Leisure Life - 4 hours per day + 2 days per week

Given that my job is not what I really want to be doing, I would use my leisure time to matter to others and make a difference. For me, my leisure time is about being self absorbed in personal improvement - reading, studying, fitness, etc.  But if I want to 'matter', I would spend 3 months at a time rotating through different projects.  Either I would find something I love, or in 30 years, I could reflect back on the 100 cool things I did to help my community.

Fleeting vs permanent impact: I'm talking helping in a soup kitchen vs building houses for habitat for humanity. In covid world it would be more like tutoring online or writing the community newsletter.

Joining an ongoing project vs creating my own volunteer group:  Joining a project is easy (soup kitchen) but I may want to be less replaceable. Instead, I could create my own volunteer group. Create my own tutoring center, or create a conservation group that plants natives in my local park.  Something Bigger than just joining an ongoing project. 

Volunteer vs Paid work: I think I would rather volunteer, but I could certainly get paid for another job in my leisure time. I could make things to sell, or I could help old people set up their computers, or I could be a professional organizer.  I have many many hours of leisure time in the week to do other things!

-----------------

So if I was stuck in my job, I would do these 2 things 1) make that job better and 2) make my leisure time matter. I may not ever find the golden goose that gives me great meaning, but I would have had a beautiful life with so many memories and have impacted so many lives.  

That is what I lay in bed thinking about. And I will say that it has inspired me to get started right away.  🙂  

Edited November 17, 2020 by lewelma

[lewelma]

51 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

Depression always lies.  ...Neither meds nor habits of mind are the magic cure to all depression, but both can be incrementally helpful, and using meds for a while while working on habits of mind seems to have worked best from a curative and preventative standpoint for the people that I have observed do best with this over the years.  

This is what I'm trying to say, but saying it badly. "Habits of mind" is *part* of the solution. This is what my sister teaches as a counselor. It is a skill that must be learned and that takes time.

[Carol in Cal.]

9 minutes ago, lewelma said:

This is what I'm trying to say, but saying it badly. "Habits of mind" is *part* of the solution. This is what my sister teaches as a counselor. It is a skill that must be learned and that takes time.

I think it’s usually more preventative than anything.  Like, it’s not what makes someone better, but it helps them to prevent themselves from sliding back into depression again.